When GD:P closes, can we stop bashing HIllary? Please?

[moriah]

I saw in my email today that she has made up her mind to support Obama's candidacy, and will be holding an event in DC on Saturday to thank her supporters, congratulate Obama, and express her support for him.

I'm not saying that Saturday isn't a bit late in the game. Personally, I think she should have had the speech ready and formally congratulated him, said she would support him, etc, Tuesday night at the latest -- he achieved the magic number that night.

Even if it's late in the game, she's doing the right thing now. If she undercuts him after this, bash her all you want. I'll join in with you. We have a nominee, and it's her job as a Democrat to support our nominee. It's all our jobs, as Democrats, to support our nominee.

As far as VP possibilities... even if I was a Hillary supporter, I don't think I want to see her 2nd on the ticket. If he chooses her and they can overcome their disagreements (which I pray to God they will regardless of if she's in his administration/his VP or not), I won't contest it. But I think there are other choices that would better balance the ticket. I'd like to see Bill Richardson on the ticket, personally, as VP. He has the foreign policy experience, would likely encourage a higher turnout among Latinos for the Democrats, and he is a strong debater. The VP candidates only get one debate -- whoever our nominee picks must be able to wipe the floor with whoever McCain picks.

... if you can't stop bashing Hillary right now, I understand. But when GD:P closes, please.... I don't want to have to read every day people bashing a former candidate that I really liked. I think we're above that. All bashing Hillary will do is continue to drive wedges in our party.

I extend the olive branch.... can we please have peace?

[eShirl]

1. entirely up to Hillary

[PeaceNikki]

30. Hillary is responsible for YOUR behavior??

Odd... I control myself. How'd you let her get so much control of your life? You should maybe talk to a professional.

[PoliticalAmazon]

46. Hillary is responsible for her own behavior, and the consequences of her behavior....

I don't understand the urge to coddle her. It only emboldens her to act in more atrocious ways.

Not only does she have much to atone for, she continues to act in ways that harm the Party and our country.

As long as we feel the repercussions of her behavior (such as the GOP ad featuring her slamming Obama), and as long as she has not yet earned foregiveness, and especially if she continues with more atrocities, she will be criticized.

[PeaceNikki]

55. Um... Not vilifying does not equal "coddling"

What are you, her creator? She requires "atonement"? :wtf: Seriously "atrocities"? Melodramatic much?

I just don't get it.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

60. Sigh. I have "issues" with both. But I am not egotistical enough to expect that they

"atone" themselves with me. Obama aligned with a "reformed gay man" on the campaign trail. Neither is aligned closely with me politically and both are nearly identical on paper.

I'll support Obama and I'd have supported Clinton. I don't hate either and I don't GET the deep-seeded hate of either.

[PoliticalAmazon]

62. Strawman argument. I didn't say she needed to "atone herself with me." ....

I don't "hate" Hillary. That's another strawman argument. I strongly believe she needs to be taken out of politics, however, because she is as bad as Bush Jr, or worse. I also believe Bush Jr needs to be removed from politics forever. Both he and Hillary can (and have) do so much harm to our country, to have them active in politics is a threat to our nation and the world.

[StevieM]

84. Sorry, but her career continues and you should expect to be disappointed in 2012 (eom)

[StevieM]

79. That is the kind of arrogant, condescending attitude that has repelled so many to Obama

"She has much to atone for" and "she has not yet earned forgiveness". Unbelievable. I have never before heard this kind of assesment made regarding a candidate who didn't get the nomination. And I have seen a lot harsher campaigns then this one, including in primaries.

Hillary has nothing to atone for. She does not require forgiveness, nor will she work for it. You will not be hearing any speeches where she talks about how sorry she is and how embarresed she is by her conduct. Instead you will hear her talking about how proud she is of her 2008 presidential campaign. And you will hear many Democrats--including Barack Obama--affirming that and agreeing that she nothing to be ashamed of and much to be proud of.

Expect to be upset with Hillary's speech when she drops out, you will no doubt conclude that she has done something wrong and can no longer be redeemed.

Steve

[Crazy Dave]

2. Maybe as far as the election goes...

But if she keeps voting to fund the war and any other republican agenda then the answer is no.

[polmaven]

10. And will you bash Senator Obama

if he keeps voting to fund the war from now until January 20?

[Crazy Dave]

40. I damn sure will

Nancy Pelosi and her gang conned everyone in '06 and if it doesn't end before his second term I'll be very outspoken.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Agree. There is a reason that Obama was my 4th choice,

and she was my last possible choice in the entire field. The only way she could not have been my last choice would be if Lieberman or Zell (or any of a few other DINO/DLCers) were running. She MIGHT have ranked better than Ben Nelson. Maybe.

[polmaven]

31. You DO understand that

as far as the war goes, since he became a Senator, their votes have been the same!

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. You DO understand that there have been no votes to leave Iraq?

That the "votes to fund the war" are votes that equip our servicemen with the gear, and armor, and food they need to survive in combat? That there is not separate vote for military expenditures EXCEPT for those in Iraq, and that to deny the military the funding is to deny stateside housing and hospitilization as well as bullets?

FUCK the funding. It's the OTHER republican initiatives that are a problem.

This is the end of the DLC. Get used to it.

[polmaven]

42. and, again, you DO understand that post # 2

to which you responded, stated FUND the war....not LEAVE Iraq?

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. No, you DON'T understand - or love to play stupid.

READ MY FUCKING POST.

There is no way to support the troops WITHOUT "funding the war". If you want to protect the troops, provide for the dependents, provide for their healthcare, you HAVE to "fund the war", and using that against Obama is completely fucking disingenuous (oh, I'm sorry, is that too big a word for you?).

If there HAD been a vote to LEAVE Iraq, you would have seen a difference - particularly since the neo-lib DLCers no more want to leave than the neocons do.

"They both funded the war" might sound like a good argument to someone whose IQ is lower than his body temp, but to anyone who THINKS about it it is an obviously falacious (oops, another big word), try BOGUS argument.

[polmaven]

68. I suggest you may want to read MY post...

You know....the part where it says as far as the war goes. You might then want to read #2 again, where is says "But if she keeps voting to fund the war".

[ampad]

70. Thank you, WTF

I hate that fucking argument because it is bunk. First of all who put Obama and others in the position to have to fund the war? The fucking people who voted for it is who. I'm a military wife and I have to tell you the last thing those men and women want to hear is that you sent them over there only to take the money away. How the hell do you get them home if you don't fund the war? As you said, what about the spouses health care and their families. Quite a few of those men and women volunteer to go over there for combat pay if you don't fund the war the first thing that goes is their combat pay which isn't much to begin with. I love how people talk out of their ass on this issue, as if it is so damn easy just to cut the money off. It doesn't change the fact that Hillary did not read the NIE yet thought it was a good idea to vote yay.

[Cant trust em]

3. I agree. Now that she's done the right thing, we need to give her that respect.

As long as she completely and fully supports Obama and campaigns her heart out, then we won't have a problem.

[Tesha]

5. She hasn't actually "done it" yet -- she's only announced that she will do it...

...Actions speak louder than Emails.

Tesha

[Cant trust em]

11. I'm willing to take it at face value for the time being

If she doesn't do it she'll be a public hypocrite. But I do agree. I'll believe it when I see it.

- CTE

[PoliticalAmazon]

51. Why would you take a liar "at face value"? She's already proven herself...

to be a public hypocrite--repeatedly.

I don't understand continuing to give her your trust when she has used it to wipe her ass with every step of this campaign.

[Cant trust em]

53. "for the time being"

I'm willing to let it go until Saturday. If that time comes and she effs it up, then I'll criticize that too.

[PoliticalAmazon]

54. I admire your optimism, but am glad you aren't Obama's strategist. n/t

[Cant trust em]

57. Ok then. She's going to make her remarks in two days. What do you do in the meantime.

Let's say that you're in Axelrod's shoes, what's your strategy?

[PoliticalAmazon]

59. I would prepare for her to lie, welch, and continue to try to steal the election...

IMO, you need to look realistically at people and their actions, and expect them to do the same thing when presented with similar behavior triggers.

I learned at a very early age from my activist mother that it is a politician's actions and their patterns of behavior that predict what they will do given similar circumstances. I learned the folly of letting what you want a politician to do, or what you hope they must do because for them to do anything else would be unexplainable and harmful, when anticipating what a politician will do.

[Cant trust em]

63. Here's what I'd do. Privately prepare for the worst and assume Clinton will waffle

Publicly state that we're happy to be working with Clinton and that we now have a unified ticket.

If I didn't make this clear in my previous posts, I am skeptical of Clinton and will believe it when I see it. But as a someone on the outside, I don't really see what talking about how she's a liar and can never be trusted helps at this point. If I can promote unity from my position, I'm going to do it. That's about all of the power I have from my keyboard.

[PoliticalAmazon]

66. Ah, then we'd work well together! I get the corner office with the windows, though. :-)

[Cant trust em]

67. I'm guessing that we'd both be fine working in a basement cubicle if it were for Obama.

:toast:

[StevieM]

80. She is a wonderful, honest person who doesn't have to earn your trust--you give it to her or

you don't. It is irrelevant. But you might want to try new ways of reaching out to Clinton supporters besides explaining to them how wrong they were and offering them an opportunity for redemption.

Steve

[Growler]

15. agreed n/t

[PoliticalAmazon]

50. How about the GOP ad featuring Hillary slamming Obama? That's ducky with you? n/t

[terrya]

4. From what I read of Skinner's post...

that stuff will end at 12:00PM on 06/11. The moderators will end that stuff immediately.

[PoliticalAmazon]

48. As long as she is impacting the election, she's part of the issue....

If that is a rule that will be enforced here, then I defintely will move on. To not discuss someone impacting the election just does not make sense.

[The Magistrate]

77. That Rule Will Be Enforced, Ma'am

Criticism of a sitting Democratic Senator must be constructive, cannot be extremely imflammatory or divisive, and cannot be a broad-brush smear or slur. Those are the normal rules of the site; they go back into full, normal force when primary discussion closes next Wednesday. We have our nominee: we are all Democrats.

"More Wars! Less Jobs! McCain '08"

[texastoast]

75. Hallafuckinlujah n/t

[glowing]

6. of course.. then its nothing to us. she'll be gone...

[eleny]

7. Agreed. It's time to move on, get more people registered to vote and go after McCain

[LisaM]

8. Of course she'll work hard and campaign for him. I think a lot of people here

simply believe the shit that's been shovelled about her for months. The reality is that she is a fierce, committed Democrat who has raised millions for the party and other candidates for years (she has frequently been in Washington state headlining fundraisers for other candidates here). I might add that for the record, I've never seen Obama out here raising money for anyone else.

She also, for that matter, has raised money for and campaigned for Obama in Illinois.

I personally think he owes her the VP slot. I think Richardson would be a terrible choice for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it would be the ultimate slap to Hillary, and therefore about as graceless a choice as Obama could make. The other is that Richardson lost all my respect while he was a candidate when he commented that the Great Lakes were "awash in water" and that we should have a national water policy where they should share the water with other states (presumably the overwatered desert that now comprises the Southwest). The fact is that the Great Lakes are at historical lows and can't be replenished. He ultimately backed off this statement when its fallacy was pointed out, but the fact that he thought this was a good idea to begin with shows an opportunism and a real lack of being able to grasp issues that worries me.

[PoliticalAmazon]

52. She is untrustworthy, a cheater, and panders to bigots. Why would you trust her...

with anything?

[Auntie Bush]

56. He's also self aggrandizing , Loves to look at himself on the TV monitor,

loves and admires his own beard. Was ungrateful to the Cintons....was self serving and what makes you think he'll be faithful to Obama should he have a good opportunity to stab him in the back if it enhances his power? Sorry but I don't trust him! He's also a boring speaker and would never get crowds to come see/hear him. There are many other inspirational speakers out there.

[moriah]

78. Water issue and Richardson

If Obama were to eliminate everyone associated with the Clinton's from his choices for VP in order to avoid "offending" Hillary, he'd have very few choices. I've seen people mention Wes Clark as a possibility -- would that be a slap in the face, too?

I'd hoped that his comments were also directed to the Atlanta water issue -- my company is headquartered out of Atlanta and many of the people I talk to who work there were seriously worried about their water supply. Not whether they'd be able to wash their cars, fill their swimming pools, and water their lawns -- but about whether they'd be able to take a 3 minute shower or drink from the tap.

That being said, I think he was right in that we need to work on a way to improve our water supply for the entire country -- a way to take advantage of the floods that hit my area at the same time that Atlanta and New Mexico are parched. One of the manmade lakes in my area has already flooded so many times this year that people are planning to sell their houses, as they've had to evacuate multiple times this spring alone. Figure out a way to take surplus water that is hurting people and move it to a place where they desperately need it. THAT would be a worthy goal. I don't think we should take away from the Great Lakes, but I know many homeowners who would be thrilled to give some of Beaver Lake's water to Atlanta or New Mexico!

I'm not talking about sending water that is to be used for irrigation or washing of cars and filling swimming pools, either. Ship drinking water. Enough water to shower and cook with, and drink, is what is needed. Teach people how to conserve water. Teach our kids to not run the water the entire time they're brushing their teeth. Teach our adults that a perfectly green lawn is not necessary. If you're going to have swimming pools in the summer, encourage communities to use a community pool instead of each individual house having a pool. Work on ways to make toilets use less water.

I've lived off the grid, with a well that was just barely sufficient -- and we had an outhouse, if we'd had flush toilets it *wouldn't* have been sufficient. I learned that a 45-minute shower isn't necessary. I learned that you can wash dishes much more efficiently than a dishwasher can. I learned that if you use safer, biodegradable detergents and shampoos, you can recycle your greywater and use THAT to water your garden or lawn.

Enviornmental hippie geeks unite! :)

[AndyA]

9. Hillary has always been bashed a bit around here.

But then again, sometimes she does things that warrant it to a degree.

I'm not a Hillary supporter, but it will be nice when the Hill bashing returns to pre-primary levels, and I'll be thrilled when the "GOBAMA!" shit stops as well.

[Poll_Blind]

13. ** She keeps acting like a crazy, entitled, rude fuck-head and I'll keep pointing it out **

PB

[2008]

14. Yes. It's official (link)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6285770

[JVS]

16. Is she going to keep this convention shit going? If so, no.

[cliffordu]

17. Yeah. If she leaves and takes her Big Dog with her.

[StevieM]

81. Sorry, but Obama doesn't want them to leave. He needs them to win this thing (eom)

[2008]

18. I see by your profile that you joined DU this year

You might want to brace yourself, if you were not reading DU before the primaries: Though the mods do an excellent job of maintaining the board, things can get pretty heated around here even when we're not in a primary.

[liberaldem4ever]

19. Actually, I never have bashed her

Not all Obama supporters hate Hillary or bash her. She has done some things I don't understand and I don't think are in the Democrat's best interests or even her own best interests. But I don't hate her. The only thing I hate is to see Democrats divided and screwing up the chance to take our country back from the Repukes after the travesty of the Bush regime.

I still have hope that everything is going to come together if we give it a little time. We have an awesome candidate who can change the world for the better if he gets the chance. It's up to us to help him get that chance.

[melody]

20. If Hillary acts like a Democrat and backs Obama, sure n/t

[Max_powers94]

21. I will not bash HIllary any more UNLESS she does something silly.

[Skip Intro]

22. The way I read Skinner's thread, they have one week to continue bashing her.

We understand that not everyone will be prepared to immediately put the primaries behind us. There will be some jerks on the winning side who insist on gloating. And there will be some sore losers on the other side who will want to keep attacking the nominee. Once we have a presumptive nominee, those people will have one week to get it out of their systems. We believe that a one-week transitional period is more than fair for those of you who cannot switch gears easily or quickly. After this week-long adjustment period, we're done.

At that point, the moderators and admins will step in and shut down the primary infighting. The vast majority of people on this site will be glad to be done with the primaries. Sadly, a very small number of bitter partisans will not be able to let it go, and will likely be removed from this community. Few people will miss them when they are gone.

--------------------------

Now that sounds to me like bashing of either from either side will not be tolerated.

[hokies4ever]

25. LOL! Skip Intro lecturing people on manners!

:rofl:

[Skip Intro]

28. You continue to bring so much to the conversation.

How do you do it?

[hokies4ever]

35. Hillary lost. Get over it.

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

32. And he's right. Skinners thread addresses BOTH sides, not just the Obama bashers.

Anyone who thinks that Hillary bashing will still be allowed is kidding themselves, and I suspect some will find that out the hard way.

Personally, there's about five people on either side who I hope get shitcanned.

[tedoll78]

36. I don't work on the 11th.

Should be fun to hang around here on that day.. :P

[Forkboy]

38. LOL.

:spank:

:)

[The Magistrate]

41. Exactly, Sir

There is certainly no intent to fulfill various people's hopes for a blood purge of everyone they disagree with here: the hope is to have no expulsions, or as few as possible, anyway.

The usual rules for discussion of Democrats go into effect: they will be enforced as they have always been.

Vendettas, and stalking of old foes, will not be looked on kindly.

[DevonRex]

23. Depends on if she does anything to undermine our candidate.

[StevieM]

82. Don't worry...you'll find a reason to say that she is (eom)

[hokies4ever]

24. As soon as she stops trying to tear apart the Dem Party

Until then, I think that some people are legitimately concerned about how she will handle herself and the rest of the 2008 election process. We now know that Hillary was dragged out of the race virtually kicking and screaming. You must understand that the Obama supporters critical of her WANT to praise her, but we need her to take the first step. Here are a couple of signs that people will be looking for:

1) Stop claiming the popular vote lead. Just like Bill thinking Hillary's candidacy was about him, people want to make sure that she understands that Obama's candidacy is not about her. So stop doing these types of things that suggest this.

2) Call off the V.P. dogs. The V.P. spot is not a negotiation. She will undermine Obama's decision (no matter what it is) if she keeps pushing. If he doesn't choose her, her supporters wil be mad. If he does choose her, he would look like he folded under her pressure. Call off the dogs Hillary. Sit down with Bill and tell him to get control of Lanny Davis.

3) Pretend like Obama is the nominee. 'Nuff said. Supposedly this will start Friday/Saturday.

4) Reach out to Obama supporters. Especially groups that she perhaps, I don't know, may have offended during the primary race. She needs to take the lead in trying to unite her supporters with Obama's candidacy. Show her leadership skills.

[StevieM]

83. She can't stop...she never started. And she did win the popular vote. (eom)

[Saturday]

26. They won't stop but nice try. nt

[EFerrari]

27. I can't wait until we can focus on McMore.

:hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

29. They'll never stop.

It's in their blood.

[Forkboy]

34. They'll have to.

[Yes We Did]

37. It is safe to say that yes, as long as Hillary tows the line...

Things go back to normal, and she is welcomed, although perhaps begrudgingly, back into the party.

[Alter Ego]

39. Hillary who?

I don't have the energy to fight it anymore--just as well that it's over.

On to the GE, folks--and let's kick some wrinkled old Republican ass.

[ruggerson]

44. They will have to, per Skinner's rules

[totodeinhere]

65. I thought they allowed constructive criticism.

I would think that if Hillary decides to make things difficult for Obama, then it would be legitimate to call her on it.

[crankychatter]

45. she's still a candidate so it's a bit of a problem

no concession, name in the hat at convention

endorsing under pressure *wink wink*

in the offing for VP

as long as she's a threat to the candidate Obama... his supporters are going to be eyeballing her and her supporters for treachery

there's nothin' for it

I don't do the "bashing"

When I see "bashing," I see it getting alerted and removed by admins

if by "bashing" you mean being critical of her conduct right now?

well, when the conduct stops, the criticism becomes history too

Maybe you should email Hillary and ask her to quit playing fuckin' games?

just a suggestion

[Apollo11]

47. GD:P will never close. It will just switch back from Primaries to Politics.

GD: P has existed for as long as I have been posting here on DU.

[rasputin1952]

49. I think we can all stop bashing any candiate at this point...

well, except for McCain, Paul or Barr...always open season on GOP morons...:D

I think we should have quit bashing our people 6 months ago.

[mudesi]

61. It depends on what she does

If she does what she did to John Kerry after his botched joke, I may have to start a thread or two...

[totodeinhere]

64. If she does not work all out to elect Obama because she wants to run again in 2012,

then as far as I'm concerned she is fair game. Let's hope that doesn't happen of course, but if it does then she would deserve all of the criticism that she could get.

[sfam]

69. That makes sense...K&R...assuming...

Assuming Hillary fully supports the nominee during the GE, of course. And we should assume that she will. If she doesn't and we're proven wrong, I'd hope that even you would be complaining about her.

[SoCalDem]

71. Once she REALLY concedes and GD-P is closed there will be no reason TO bash her

she will once again be just a democratic senator..and unless she deliberately undermines our candidate, she will get a free ride at DU :)

BUT if she "goes Lieberman" on us, all bets are OFF :rofl:

[kwenu]

72. There is more than a little speculation that Hillary will NOT give a full endorsement.

If Hillary fails to fully endorse the nominee it will be a disaster on Saturday. I hope we are not being mislead.

[MethuenProgressive]

73. The Hillary Haters will go away. They weren't here to support Obama at all.

Without Hillary to bash they'll lose interest in DU and go back where they came from.

[quakerboy]

74. She don't bash me, I don't bash her

I'm all about Olive Branches. Probably wouldn't bash her even if she did bash me, truth to tell.

Lets Thump on McCain a bit now. He really deserves it, if anyone does. How does he suck up to Bush, after the things they said about his family? Thats what always got me about him, even before I had ever cared to examine his politics. How can he look at his own reflection in the mirror. Must avoid looking himself in the eye, I feel certain.

[CesarAugustus2]

76. That won't happen

It's in their genes to trash Hillary.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

86. Richardson was long out of the race when her supporters bashed the shit out of him

[mzmolly]

87. K and R. At times I wonder how long many here have observed politics.

This was an unusual, close hard fought primary, but taking a day to announce dropping out is not unusual, keeping one's delegates, not unusual, bargaining for XYZ, not unusual.

If Obama had lost, he would be doing much the same thing.

[tandot]

88. A lot of Hillary-Haters wouldn't know what to do with all the free time on their hands

Hate is such a waste of energy as is beating a dead horse.

Ironically, I thought since Obama is our nominee, putting people on ignore isn't necessary anymore. I was wrong.

[Career Prole]

89. Hillary who?

There...how's that?
:toast:

[bvar22]

90. In addition to suspending her campaign and endorsing Obama,..

...Hillary MUST acknowlege that Obama WON the nomination FAIR & SQUARE.
Her last month of "campaigning" did a lot of damage to the legitimacy of Obama's win, and to the Democratic Party's nomination process.

ALL of her "Popular Vote" claims, and slams against Caucuses were advancing an argument that Obama was not a legitimate nominee.
She NEEDS to repair this damage.
If she continues with her Popular Vote nonsense, I will continue to point out that this is a absurd claim that damages the Democratic Party nominee, and the Democratic Party's chances in the GE.

[tbyg52]

91. Yes. Period. nt