Why are some Hillary Supporters mad at Dean?????

[LSK]

What am I missing here???

:shrug:

[writes3000]

1. Edit. n/t

[LSK]

4. ok

[writes3000]

10. Thank you. n/t

[glowing]

2. Because he's the head of the DNC.... so, he effectively "stole" the election

from her.. I suppose that is the argument.

[LisaM]

3. I can only speak for myself

but I think he dropped the ball on Michigan and Florida. You don't need to try and batter me with arguments. I've heard them ad nauseum.

[LSK]

6. how did he drop the ball?

A committee that included Harold Ickes voted to strip their delegates waaayyyyyyyy before all this started.

How is that Dean's fault?

[Renew Deal]

13. And Dean isn't on the committee

:shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. Hello darkness, my old friend

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
'Neath the halo of a street lamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence

"Fools", said I, "You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you"
But my words, like silent raindrops fell
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls"
And whispered in the sounds of silence



Artist: Simon & Garfunkel
Album: Sounds Of Silence
®
©

[Lerkfish]

24. ah, I see my decision to ignore that poster was well founded.

so far, only two have made it back onto my clean ignore list.

[Blue_Roses]

11. As we have heard all the excuses and EXCUSES for her loss

ad nauseum. I think people are just sick of it, so no arguments to try and beat a dead horse here.

[DerekJ]

12. I'm not, but he said what he'll do with FL and MI long before Obama started to win anything.

So it was never agasint Hillary.

[LisaM]

16. Exactly

at the time I was an Edwards supporter, and I thought Edwards had a chance to do well in Michigan. As an ex-Michigander myself, I was keenly disappointed that Michigan, with its economic problems, wasn't afforded an earlier chance. They've been trying to go earlier since 2003, at least.

[donheld]

23. Exactly? The post you are referencing points out how it is NOT Dean's fault

So why are you mad at him?

[last1standing]

40. You do know that Dean doesn't have dictatorial powers over the DNC, don't you?

He is the chair of the DNC but there are many, many members who supported various candidates sitting in various committees who make the rules. In Michigan and Florida's case it was the Rules & Bylaws Committee, which ironically had a majority of Hillary supporters, that made the ruling. Dean's job was to enforce their decision, which he did - honorably.

It really is time to stop the needless trashing of Dean, Lisa. His vision is the major reason we now have majorities in the House and Senate. It might even net us a President in November if we can all pull together.

Agreed?

[LiberalFighter]

46. Disregarding the RBC the DNC consists of members from each state.

With members and alternates it is in the neighborhood of 450 or so.

They have the final vote on the rules before the primaries start. The RBC vote on any challenges.

Anyone that is blaming Dean may be trying to get him ousted. If they can distort it by suggesting that Dean makes the decisions because he is the chair they will do it. People don't think about it when confronted or know what the structure is in the DNC and how decisions are made.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Fifty state strategy means another mail in the DLC coffin

though they are not dead, not by far.

Getting money NOT from the usual suspect, again another nail in the DLC coffin

Many of them are DLC and do not believe we the little people should control the fate of the party

This is a fight for the future of the party, for the soul of the party, they are loosing it, HARD

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. On the head. nt

[blm]

18. McAuliffe can't STAND that Dean is showing why Dem party structure failed under Clinton loyalists

who were using the party all these years for the specialized needs of the Clintons and were rendered incapable of doing their job to support any other Dem candidates' election needs, or the needs of Dem voters who never had a secure election process awaiting them in the voting booth, even after 2000s blatant theft, or the focus on any Dem issue.

McAuliffe failed the Dem party bigger than any party chair in my lifetime. Gore and Kerry would have won in visible landslides if we had a functioning DNC.

Hail to Dean - the party chair we NEEDED after years of McAuliffe and Clinton loyalists.

[Lerkfish]

26. precisely.

[last1standing]

41. Very true.

The DLC campaign model calls for running candidates who are usually socially progressive but extremely corporate friendly. Before the Dean model, this was an effective way to compete with the repubs for campaign cash. Now that Dems can efficiently tap into funds from millions of people instead of just a few with very deep pockets, there is less need to cozy up to big business.

The perfect example of which method is better comes straight from the Obama/Clinton race. Hillary depended on the DLC model and was able to tap into a massive warchest before the primaries even began. Obama used Dean's model and refined it. While he didn't have as much money as Hillary at the beginning of the primary season, he was able to call upon a steady infusion of cash while Hillary's smaller base of financial support was legally limited. In the end, Obama was able to outraise and outspend her by large margins.

The great news about that is McCain is using a version of the DLC model so t is very unlikely that he will be able to match Obama's fundraising ability.

[scheming daemons]

7. They think he rigged things so Hillary couldn't win....

and.... for a small number of the more radical ones...

...it's because he has a penis.

[Growler]

19. yup, that's it exactly. n/t

[Nine]

38. Because he has a penis? Oh, please...

You think because you add on some qualifying phrase "a small number of the more radical ones" that you can just make any ridiculous claim you want? It's either a real reason or it's not. With a population that size I'm sure you can find anything you want in some tiny number, even a Hillary supporter who dislikes Dean because of the way he combs his hair, but does the existence of such an individual make that a real and significant phenomenon? I'm tired of this anti-feminist sentiment. Why not just call us "feminazis"? Sorry, I don't believe any sizable contingency of Clinton supporters dislikes Dean because he is male, and I think it's sexist to say so; it plays on the old man-hating canard. And I don't think YOU have any reason to believe such a thing except that it fits in with some stereotype you obvious have rattling around in your brain.

[hfojvt]

44. the head of NOW in NY wrote a scathing piece about Ted Kennedy

and included Jim and Howard Dean in the indictment. They were all a bunch of sexists - apparently because the combination of being male and not supporting Hillary makes a person a sexist.

So, it may be a small number but that was a very public attack on three men largely for the 'crime' of being male.

[writes3000]

8. Delete. n/t

[moondust]

9. He's the most visible scapegoat for FL and MI.

[Captain Hilts]

32. He treated them the same, when their circumstances were different. Not smart.

And pissed off a lot of elderly, female and Latino voters in Florida on the way.

They're already sensitive after what happened in 2000.

[Recursion]

15. Displaced older activists

He connected with the youth vote and youth activists and the netroots in a way that displaced the older activists.

[newmajority]

17. The DLC has ALWAYS hated Howard Dean

From the moment he launched his Presidential campaign in 2003, they made him a target, and it has never stopped. Fortunately, the Good Doctor fought back, and even though they won Round 1 by forcing him out in 2004, it's Dean, Obama, and the REAL Democrats who won the battle.

[LSK]

20. so it stems from that DNC chair fight in 2004 and the Hillary loss

A combination of things?

[underpants]

21. DLC sponsored campaigned and promote Harold Ford against Dean

Dean never did anything to resolve or speed up the resolution of MI and FL mostly because he knew how it would turn out and because it would have given her time to manuever.

Remember that Dean began his DNC chairmanship saying "I represent the DEMOCRATIC wing of the Democratic party" which was a direct shot at the DLC


1Dean and the DLC don't like each other at all.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LSK]

27. kinda of a reach comparison

"When the Nazis got the communists, I was silent; I was no communist. When they locked up the Social Democrats, I had been silent; I was no Social Democrat. When they got the trade unionists, I did not protest; I was no trade unionist. When they got the Jews, I was silent; I was no Jew. When they got me, there was none more, which could protest."


Comparing a primary election loss to the holocaust is really a reach.

[blonndee]

34. No shit! That's pretty offensive.

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. Where was he when we needed him?

Doing EXACTLY what he was hired to do - standing up the DLC, re-energizing the Democratic party, expanding the base, and ensuring a Democratic victory in the coming general election.

And the whole time, Hillary and the DLC were undermining him, mocking the 50 state strategy, setting him up to fail with the FL/MI coup which they planned to, and did, use against him, all because he defied the DLC in 2003.

[Lerkfish]

35. wow. bitter much?

and I failed german. What are you on about?
Oh! something related to Nazis.

figures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Reported, as OFFENSIVE

this is NOT the nazi party you twit!

And as a daughter of a holocaust survivor, who's heard the stories and seen the effects, this is more than just offensive!

[Captain Hilts]

28. He saw the MI FL trainwreck coming and did nothing. And treated them the same, which made no sense.

[karynnj]

30. They need a scapegoat

Someone had to cause their loss - because otherwise, it was them... and the biggest reason for HRC was always, because only Clintons win. Yet they did lose. We will likely see many people blamed before too much time goes by.

Eventually, they may get that Obama won because a sufficient number of Democrats preferred him.

[Lerkfish]

37. exactly. They can NEVER ACCEPT the failures of their own campaign

it must be SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT!!.

[ProSense]

43. Also, don't forget that some of Hillary's surrogates fanned discontent,

beginning with Carville's attack on Dean after Democrats won big in 2006.

[karynnj]

45. I wish I could forget - it was disgraceful

After the huge win that could not have happened had candidates not been supported in areas that the DCCC and DSCC thought hopeless, there would have been no one there to take advantage of people of Bush's and the Republican's popularity cratering. It was Dean who strengthened EVERY state party after McAuliffe let them decay, when it was indeed "his party" It was Dean in addition to a an independent effort by Kerry that helped these candidates when they were thought not to have a chance.

Yet, they were the ones everywhere on election eve taking the credit - that was insult. The injury was when Carville tried to establish the lie that had Dean spent all his money and gone into debt, then the victory would be bigger. Until the HRC campaign, I didn't realize that it was bad judgment and it WAS what he would have done.

[endarkenment]

31. They are mad at everyone.

Most of them will get over it and realize that there is more at stake here than the ambitions of one candidate.

[WeDidIt]

33. Same reason people who are foreclosed on get mad at the sheriff

As the DNC chairman, he had to enforce the rules he was given.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Captain Hilts]

42. Not fair. Stop with the 'only man haters voted for Clinton' shit. NOW

[quaker bill]

47. It runs deep and back to 04

We can all recall that Dean ran in 04. Some of us can recall the series of DLC coordinated attack ads ran againt Dean in Iowa in the final weeks before the caucus. Everyone here recalls that Dean did not fare well in Iowa. There has been speculation of concern on the part of the DLC that Dean could well have won, making Hillary's intended run in 2008 much more problematic.

Well a month or so later, Dean folds up shop on his Presidential Campaign and forms "Democracy for America" from his on-line community of supporters. He uses this tool to raise money for other democratic candidates that stood for the values he brought to his race for the nomination. One of the very first chosen was sure enough, Barack Obama. Over a weekend DFA raised over $500,000 for the Obama for Senate campaign. I am pretty sure Dean also had a hand in getting Obama the primetime speaking slot at the 04 convention, not that it took a lot of selling, as Barack even then was understood as eloquent, and certainly would represent the diversity of the party well.

Then comes the Kerry defeat of 04. Shortly thereafter DFA kicked it into high gear. Our local group showed up at the County Democratic Executive Committee in large numbers and voted in new leadership. This approach was coordinated and took place at various locations all over the country. Shortly after this came the election for a new DNC chair. The DFA community pleaded with Dean to run for DNC chair and then showed up at the meetings to make it happen.

I do not recall the name anymore, but the DLC had a candidate on the ballot much favored by the Clinton forces. They lost and Dean became chair. Since then these forces have consistently called for Dean to resign. So, in short, there is nothing new about the Clintonista faction hating Howard Dean.