Stimulus checks?

[Phillycat]

This is Obama's solution for the economy? More stimulus checks? Man, it didn't work when Bush did it and I don't think it's going to work the 2nd time around. Doesn't Obama have any better ideas? It's worrisome that his first big announcement on how to fix the economy (THE issue in the coming election, count on it) is to...do the same thing Bush already did, something that failed.

[saltpoint]

1. Obama's a pretty good politician, and his proposal of this stimulus package

is a symbolic acknowledgement of people's economic strife and not a centerpiece of a national economic corrective.

[Phillycat]

2. If it's not the centerpiece, then why is it his first announced plan to fix the economy?

[saltpoint]

4. Again, he's a good politician, and this stimulus proposal is an

acknowledgement of hard times, not an economic strategy.

[Phillycat]

6. So, we're just supposed to believe he's a good politician...

even though the first idea he has for fixing THE biggest problem facing our country is to do exactly what the current administration has already done, with no success?

That doesn't seem very politically smart.

[saltpoint]

7. I think he's already established the fact that he is an excellent politician.

I think he's going to make an excellent president as well.

[Phillycat]

8. So, no deeper thought required then?

All righty. Carry on.

[saltpoint]

9. I think you just nailed it, janesez. Obama and his supporters, coast-to-coast,

are extremely shallow.

We have no actual capacity to think at all, in fact.

Which is why we support Obama in the first place, as he is similarly vacuous.

I hope that clears it all up for ya.

[Phillycat]

10. Hey, I asked a serious question.

You just kept saying over and over again, "He's a good politician." I didn't say anything about Obama supporters coast to coast. I said YOU refuse to think deeper on the issue than to say, "He's a good politician." Or if you have thought more seriously on the topic of the economy and why Obama would use an idea already tried and failed at by the Bush administration, you refuse to share your thoughts on this thread. :shrug:

[saltpoint]

12. It could be that you did not ask the serious question but

instead picked up the first shiney thing you found and started waving it in the air, screaming, "Look, everone -- an atrocity committed by the Democratic nominee! Let's embarrass him! He's just like Bush! Let's pile on!"

Sixth grade is over.

Your gal lost.

[Phillycat]

15. Pardon?

Despite the fact that you still haven't answered my question or shared your thoughts, instead choosing to insult me and make assumptions about me, you're accusing ME of acting hysterical?

There's no need to be rude, I haven't been rude to you. So now, would you care to talk about the issue I raised in the OP? If not, why are you posting on this thread?

[saltpoint]

17. When you slam the Democratic nominee over nothing, you can expect

reaction in favor of the nominee.

If you have economic concerns about the direction of the country, you might volunteer to support Obama in the race against McCain.

[Phillycat]

24. I did not slam the Democratic nominee over nothing.

As you can see below, others are able to discuss a policy they find distasteful without the kneejerk reaction you had.

I am voting for Obama.

[saltpoint]

26. It's good to hear you endorse the Democratic nominee.

It's been a dreary 8 years under Bush.

[Phillycat]

28. Of course I do, I'm a Democrat. Who the hell else am I going to vote for?

You might think about that next time you attack someone on a progressive message board for bringing up an pertinent issue.

[saltpoint]

30. You ran the slam, you got the response.

I'll speak my mind, such as it is, accordingly as meets current needs.

Your post sucked.

[Phillycat]

33. Wow, you are a charmer.

[saltpoint]

34. It was your post.

[Yes We Did]

37. 27 Hours. that's what you got left for this shit. 27 Hours. Enjoy It.

[Phillycat]

39. Excuse me?

My post did not slam Obama - it was a valid issue and they will still be very much up for discussion on DU. I've been here since 2001 - I understand the rules very well.

[Yes We Did]

41. 27 Hours. Then we all back the nominee.

This, this topic you posted is a non-started, and you deliberately misled people to make it seem like the ONLY thing Obama has planned is stimulus checks.

This is not the free republic. We actually pay attention. Being here since 2001 you should know that you can't just spew half-truths, at best, and expect it to fly.

[saltpoint]

43. Some of are on board already.

Others, not so much, I guess.

[Phillycat]

45. Yes, that's obvious.

Your blind allegiance to Obama that makes you attack other Democrats for bringing up valid points that don't look so good for him...yes, it's obvious you've already signed your loyalty oath.

[Yes We Did]

47. Blind Allegiance? Please.

Anyone on here who has read my threads knows better. I am the first to point out "real" issues with him.

This, what you have, is a joke. Nothing more than another bull shit MSM hitjob.

[saltpoint]

66. Ah. So this is a Hillary-as-Victim post.

Thought so.

[Labors of Hercules]

95. See, you make a valid point and then fuck it up by mixing it with shit like this...

loyalty oath? Come the fuck on. :eyes:

[Phillycat]

99. Please read the entire exchange...

with Old Crusoe. I'm serious. There is no reasoning with him, he just says over and over "Obama is good! Obama is good!" What am I supposed to say?

[Labors of Hercules]

119. I did, and tossing labels back and forth...

does nothing to substantiate your point of view. It bugs me to see a legitimate issue-driven discussion get lost in pettiness. A lot of that is determined by how you framed the issue in your OP, which is why you're getting blowback.

The original economic stimulus package was a bi-partisan effort that Bush really can't claim much credit for... So it's a perfectly fair argument to say you disagree with Obama's backing some of the same provisions in the new bill, but it's NOT fair to say that doing so equates him with Bush.

It came across as an unfair attack on Obama, so I can see why some would be focusing on that rather than the policy. :shrug:

[saltpoint]

135. You could say, "Hey, he's right -- Obama is good."

See? Didn't hurt a bit, did it?

[lumpy]

140. It is perfectly legitimate to back a candidate and at the same

time question the issues. To be 'on board' doesn't mean you have to accept every move/proposal he might make without question. Only dictators would expect that sort of loyalty.

[Phillycat]

44. Both my morning newspaper and my morning news program led with

"More Stimulus Checks Under Obama" stories. It's a valid point for discussion, it's not slamming the nominee, and I've already said I'll vote for Obama, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

[lumpy]

138. Do you really believe there will be no discussion of the issues

after tonight? What will there be to discuss if that is the case? Are we just going to be left talking about what a great politician Obama is?

[Straight Shooter]

148. You nailed it.

I cannot believe the exchange I just read between JS and OC; it was like something from The Twilight Zone. :wtf:

[Runcible Spoon]

151. no shit, it's incredible...

seems the deliberately obtuse/disengenuous baiters and the echo chamber lobbyists seem hell-bent on shutting down any authentic and constructive criticism of policy. I took "supporting the candidate" to mean simply we will vote for the presumptive nominee. Not that we had to eat shit and smile for more when there s/he did/said/proposed something we didn't like!

[cliffordu]

104. ROFL Very nice....And true....

:rofl:

[truedelphi]

146. He's going to change the entire structure/direction of this country

If Bush/Cheney don't start nuking Iran before the election.

I'm counting on Obama to FDR look like a slacker.

And he will make JFK look un-charismatic.

We are going to put this country back on the map in a good way, and start getting the country to work for its people, not for the corporations.

[hendo]

83. because people like the idea of getting money back from the government

Although, I still haven't gotten my Bush stimulus check :(

[butterfly77]

126. Because people like you,.

are going to criticize him no matter what he says or does...

[lumpy]

136. Votes baby, votes.

His first priority is to get in the WH and then all good things will follow of course. It is not new for candidates to promise the moon without knowing how they are going to do it while still following the old status quo.

[asthmaticeog]

3. There was more to it than stimulus checks.

Part of his proposal was to expand and extend unemployment bennies, which I enthusiastically support, in addition to more StimPack, which I do not. I'm just glad people are FINALLY talking about demand-side stimulus after almost 30 of neglect. It absolutely needs to take a more substantial form than it has thus far, but it's part of the conversation again after being entirely absent from public discourse since the Reagan era, and fuckin' HALLELUJAH for that.

[Phillycat]

5. Sure, but why would Obama align himself so closely with Bush's policies

on economics right out of the gate, when this administration has destroyed the economy?

[asthmaticeog]

11. Extended unemployment benefits are closely aligned with Bush's policies?

He's talking about starting to rebuild the safety net and the Liberal social contract. :shrug:

As for the additional StimPack, a lot of Dems in Congress have come out in favor of it, too - Pelosi, IIRC, said something to the effect that if the first round of checks didn't do the job they'd keep sending out more. This was the position of Dem leadership before the nominee was selected. I'm not going to try to answer for why they're supporting this, I think it's perilous, but it seems to be the position of the Dem leadership, including the nominee.

[Phillycat]

19. SOME of the Dem leadership is in favor...

but I thought Obama was supposed to be about change? I got the impression that he was trying to paint the picture that he wouldn't kowtow to the Establishment when he thought the Establishment was wrong, that he was outside of Beltway politics, that he was untarnished. Some of his supporters keep telling us that Obama's presidency will be the end of DLC-style economics, yet...that is exactly what this is.

[asthmaticeog]

23. Again, it's only a part of what he proposed.

It's the part I disagree with, but it's one slice of the pie, the rest of which is tax cuts that actually target those who're hurting and a rebuilt safety net for the unemployed and impoverished, both of which would be long overdue and most certainly non-DLCish. I'm not of the opinion that Senator Obama is perfect (FAR from it), but the laserbeam focus on the one negative aspect of a decent set of preliminary proposals seems unhelpful.

[Phillycat]

36. Middle-class tax cuts.

He didn't specify income level, at least in the coverage I saw, and I found that curious, too.

A safety net for the unemployed and impoverished would be great. Who wouldn't be in favor of that? But the fact is, my newspaper and morning news program (yeah, MSM, so what? That's what people watch) both led with "More Stimulus Checks under Obama" so I don't think I'm "laser-beam focusing" on anything.

[asthmaticeog]

48. So the media's misleading, but that's something Obama's doing wrong?

So what if that's what people watch? It's incorrect. You're blaming Obama for having a DLC-like economic policy, but admitting the media's misreporting it? I can't see how you're squaring that.

[Yes We Did]

76. It's just a last day last ditch smear thead.

And any time you bring up the FACT that the OP is misleading, and you point out the facts, the OP just ignores it and attacks again.

[Phillycat]

79. And you can't look away, can you?

:D

[Yes We Did]

82. There is a method to my madness.

[asthmaticeog]

85. I have no doubt that the OP is sincere, actually.

And frankly, I can't wait until tomorrow at noon so that shit like "this is your last day ha ha ha" stops being the default DU "argument" contra any complaint about any stated policy of Barack Obama's. We ARE allowed to take exception to his policy ideas after noon tomorrow. What we aren't allowed to do is advocate against his candidacy.

[Yes We Did]

86. I don't have a problem with policy complaints...

But if you are going to make one, then you should have to use the whole policy... not just cherry-pick what you don't like.

It is a misleading OP. That is my problem with it.

[asthmaticeog]

96. It's disingenuous to complain about a bad idea so long as it's combined with a few good ones?

A ludicrous assertion. Apply that anywhere but to this particular OP and it's silliness gets thrown into sharp relief.

"Well, it turns out Ted's a serial child molester, but he *did* run the carpool for several years, and he donated all that money to the hospital, and he sure did know how to barbecue..."

[Yes We Did]

100. First off, horrible analogy. Second... there is nothing wrong with the stimulus checks.

As long as it is not your "whole" policy, there is nothing wrong with it.

However, the OP did not mention any other part of his economic policy, and that is disingenuous.

And I'll say the same thing to you. If you have such an issue with it, then don't cash the check when it comes.

[asthmaticeog]

106. First off, it was a HILARIOUS analogy.

Second, it's perfectly valid to complain about part of a policy.

The OP didn't mention any other part of the policy possibly because the OP wasn't complaining about any other part of the policy.

Finally, while saying unhelpful shit like "just don't cash the check" may seem pithy to you, why not just say "shut up?" It's what you really mean. You're aim here seems to be stopping argument, not participating in it. And the forms that demand-side stimulus should take is an argument this party needs to have.

[Phillycat]

110. Thanks.

And believe it or not, I learned something from your posts. Not so much from the other guy's. :D

[asthmaticeog]

114. Thanks back at'cha.

I'm actually enjoying reading a lot of this thread, I'm glad you started it. There's some +1 Informative shit getting posted in here, if you disregard the He-Can-Do-No-Wrong crowd. :D

[Phillycat]

116. But! But!

I only posted it because I'm bitter, doncha know! :D

I am particularly interested in Starbucks Anarchist's comments, and wi...crap, I can't remember the poster's name, it starts with wi-something. Really good information about Obama's plan.

Do you think it will ever occur to the other types that trying to shout people down will NEVER change minds? How ineffectual they are? Probably not...

[Yes We Did]

120. I never said none of that.

[Yes We Did]

118. I sure as hell hope you don't lump me in the that "he-can-do-no-wrong" crowd.

I never said he was the perfect candidate. But he sure is one hell of one. I have taken issue with a number of things Obama has said and done, but this is not one of them.

His entire package is solid. And yes, if you do have a problem with the stimulus check... enough of one to rail against it, then you shouldn't cash it; not if you are still going to complain about it.

[asthmaticeog]

123. That's not an argument.

"It's a bad idea."

"So don't cash yours."

"Whether I cash it or not doesn't stop it from being a bad idea."

"So don't cash yours."

"But most people will cash them and that can hurt the economy more than it helps."

"So? They're not hypocrites. You will be if you cash yours."

"Who is and isn't a hypocrite seems tangential and trivial compared to the actual point I'm trying to make, which is that this isn't necessarily such a good idea, and perhaps a public discussion beforehand could stop something bad from happening."

"If you object, don't cash yours."

"Let's say everyone who objects doesn't cash his or her check. That doesn't keep it from being a potentially dangerous idea, because NOT everyone will object, and thus they'll hurt the treasury by cashing their checks. This discussion needs to happen so that people can be fully informed about the potential consequences of this policy idea."

"Well, if you don't like it, then don't cash your check."

etc. etc. etc...

[Yes We Did]

113. It's not a funny analogy to anyone who has child molestation in their family.

I don't find that funny at all.

Second, the OP should have mentioned other parts of the policy. To not do so is misleading. I have had to tell three different people on here that there is more to his package than just the stimulus checks.

When you post, especially when it involves policy issues, you do have a responsibility to provide all the facts, not just the ones you choose to take issue with.

And as far as "don't cash it" and "shut up..." it' called decorum.

[asthmaticeog]

117. Yeah, it's clear that I did NOT make fun of molested children.

As for all the middle stuff, you're wrong. The OP is not a news agency, and one has the right to complain about whatever one wants. If I complain about an economic bill, am I responsible for posting and analyzing every rider to that bill? NO. That's PREPOSTEROUS.

And lastly, you admit you aim to stifle argument? Mighty big of you. Now stop it. It's dickish.

[Yes We Did]

122. I didn't say you did. However, the issue is not something to joke about. Period.

And no you don't have to analyze every rider. Don't be a smart ass. However, a link would help.

I was raised to know that if you don't tell the whole truth, you are telling a lie.

And lastly, and I mean lastly, the only people being "dickish" here... are you and the OP.

[asthmaticeog]

125. ...

[Phillycat]

127. Well, we've been dissed by an anonymous poster on the internet.

I'm suitably ashamed, how about you?

[asthmaticeog]

131. This was actually a first for me....

Someone who agreed with me acted like a total penis about it. :shrug:

[Phillycat]

132. Oh, but you musn't show a single chink in your armor!

I AM THE ENEMY. If you defend me, YOU BECOME THE ENEMY. This poster hates me FAR MORE than he's ever hated Bush.

Man, remember when this website was for Democrats? :D

[Yes We Did]

40. Because everybody likes free money.

And thousands didn't have to die as a result. So, if he is going to "allign" himself with ANYthing Bush has done, this would appear to be the correct one.

Tell me? Will you be cashing your check or lighting it on fire.

Yeah... that's what I thought.

[Phillycat]

42. This is so wrongheaded I don't know where to begin.

The reason the Bush stimulus package was RIGHTLY reviled both on DU and by economists everywhere is that it doesn't solve the problem in the slightest and hurts the economy in the meantime.

My stimulus check is already converted to Euros and winging its way into my French bank account to be spent there. It was removed from the American economy completely.

[Yes We Did]

49. So burn your check when you get it.

If it is so wrong, and you disagree with so whole-heartedly... burn it.

Burn it or stop bitching about it.

Talk about hypocrisy.

[Phillycat]

50. You need to read for comprehension...I already told you what I did with my check.

[Yes We Did]

60. We're talking about Obama's stimulus package.

I know what we are addressing. Do you? I said if you object so much to the stimulus package, the one you HAVEN'T received yet, then when it arrives burn it.

If you object so much, BURN IT!

Putting it in a foreign account is an act of hypocrisy; as you are still accepting it.

So unless you are willing to burn it, that means you are accepting it. I mean really, what nerve.

Bitch bitch bitch... then say "Oh, I'll still cash it, but I won't like it..."

Funny funny funny...

[Phillycat]

65. You are actually defending stimulus checks. Unbelievable.

When Bush's plan was revealed, DU was united in saying the plan was stupid, useless, and designed to boost his popularity rating while doing nothing for the economy or the working man. But now that it's Obama proposing the same thing, it's just grand?

HYPOCRISY. You're soaking in it!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. Aside from the checks themselves, how are their plans similar?

Obama said he will make up the lost revenue through the closing of corporate-tax loopholes, etc., while Bush instead increased spending, putting us further in the red.

And Obama has repeatedly called for increasing the capital-gains tax rate to 28% -- up from the 15% proposed by Bush.

[Yes We Did]

71. Don't you know... you can't use facts.

[Yes We Did]

70. NO, I didn't get a stimulus check.

Nice try though. You did get one, cashed it, and railed against it.

THAT is the definition of hypocrisy.

And once again, you dodge and deflect.

[cliffordu]

If you don't know the difference between the Bush economic package and

Obama's economic stimulus package (his website is your friend),

Maybe you shouldn't be trying to 'discuss' it on the innernet.

Unless actually having facts isn't relevant to your stance.

Next up: Both Obama and McCain are MEN!! They are EXACTLY ALIKE!!

[lumpy]

141. "Burn it or stop bitching about it" ?

You sound like one of those America, Love it or Leave it dingbats.

[IA_Seth]

105. LOL!

Wow, are you serious?

Converted to Euros and on the way to France?

Good Lord woman, it's like a commercial for liberal elitism. Now, I am not saying that you can't or shouldn't do what you've done, but come on, you have to see the comedy in your actions?

Maybe it's just my midwestern perspective?

[Phillycat]

108. Uh.

I'm moving to France in September.

[AuntPatsy]

32. It's a start the extended uemployment benefits but how about we

begin addressing and finding a solution to ensure the need for "JOBS" better paying ones, what you just mentioned, both of them are nothing more than bandaids, bandaids dont heal they only hide the wound.

[asthmaticeog]

53. Actually band aids do help heal, so your metaphor is shite.

It's a start. I don't know where it's going down the road. Neither do you. I'm glad it's finally being duscussed.

[AuntPatsy]

84. I am sorry but band-aids alone do NOT heal so I stand by my metaphor if you don't mind..

I agree we have to start somewhere but I just wish it was not with something that has already been used and proven to be ineffective...believe it or not I am not bashing Sen Obama, unlike some there is not one politician out there that has my full trust and or respect, the world they must live in is something that you nor I could possibly understand unless we stood along side them.

I realize concessions are met daily in order to get enough on board, unlike some I know that Sen obama will have to say or do things that might send up red flags to some and allow others to shout "told you so", its the nature of the business but if he is really about "change" than I hope he realizes that actions speak louder than words, have heard enough words to last me a lifetime, I would much rather seen action.....JMHO

[wileedog]

13. He said short term is stimulous package, long term is middle class tax cuts

[AuntPatsy]

22. I told my daughter she would more depressed after getting that ignorant

"hush money" from the current administration and yo and behold she ended up being just that because she had to come to me for help soon after receving it, its a slap on the people of this country, how about ensuring they have decent paying jobs that rise along with the rising econmy?

That's too easy, continue outsourcing, allow the rich to grow richer and the poor and middle class to become too weak to fight the injustice of it all, thats the ticket and once a year give the little people a cookie to soothe their wounded pride....

[wileedog]

51. And Obama has also talked about tax incentive plans for companies

that don't outsource and re-investing in new industries and markets domestically to create jobs at home.

Why are you cherry picking one thing and whining about it?

[AuntPatsy]

64. Oh stop it, I am by no means cherry picking any one issue but this particular one

I am more than familiar with as far as long term and the benefit of it all, whining? Get over yourself, I for one am not whining for myself, it seems you need to sit back, take a deep breath and attempt to ask me a question that I might be able to answer you to ensure you have a clearer understanding of my meaning.


The first part of your post I was no aware of, thats a great idea and I hope it gets implemented and it's just not talk, so next time instead of allowing any rudeness to be directed to another poster just stop wasting time and just hit me with the facts,

Let me be honest though, my faith is politicians as a whole is not exactly without a bit of uneasiness as to their true intentions regardless of political affiliations

[wileedog]

73. Look, the stimulus check is just what Obama can do NOW

He is proposing it because it is legislation he can help push through while he is still a Senator. His other far more reaching programs such as middle-class tax cuts, incentives to keep jobs in this country, new research and infrastucture etc he really can't do anything about until he is President, and that is a long way aways.

He's just trying to do what he can to alleviate pressure now, and since he is not Prez yet he has limited options.

ANd I apologize for the rudeness. I still have a day left and I want to get it out of my system :)

[AuntPatsy]

87. And I'm sorry but it only adds pressure because it is so short term

and gives false hope, gets people's hopes up than as quickly they come crashing back down to earth as the reality hits em when they once again realize the futility of this empty gesture. And it is empty, my opinion, yes, but one that came from watching those that were recipients of the first checks and how they crashed and hard.

[wileedog]

101. I don't understand your argument

If someone give you $600, what exactly is the 'false' hope this is instilling?

[Yes We Did]

54. So... I guess you will continue to act like a republican and ignore the bigger picture.

Nice to know the mentality of some of you faux-dems on here. I don't get you guys. I really don't.

You get a bigger picture, and instead of just admitting you are wrong, you ignore the point and try to drive home something less important.

[AuntPatsy]

59. I have absolutely no idea what you think you trying to say? Bigger picture?

Are you kidding me? Its clear to me who is missing the big picture and sorry to rain on your parade but it's not me this time though I have been quilty of such in the past.

[Yes We Did]

75. The big pictures is his ENTIRE package.

Yes, if it was just a stimulus check, and that alone then I would whole-heartedly agree with this thread.

That FACT is however, that the checks are just a small part of his plan. And so, pretending that all he is doing is a stimulus check is disingenuous at best.

[AuntPatsy]

89. Well I for one am not pretending that is all of the plan, what I am saying

is that for some, all they will see is the "check" without realizing how long it will actually be before hope springs eternal, I just don't agree with false hope, why not be more honest? Is that not what we want? "change", in my opinion being honest would definitely instigate change is on the way regardless if the truth hurts or not. False hope hurts worse in the long run..

[Yes We Did]

94. He's not spreading false hope.

In every speech he makes, Obama is very clear that there is no "easy quick fix"

I think I've heard him say that as many times as "yes we can"

Anyone who listens to him knows better than that. You can't (an I'm not accusing you of this)listen to a 2 minute clip of a 20 minute speech and claim to understand him.

He has been VERY clear. This will not be easy. We have MANY challenges ahead of us.

[AuntPatsy]

107. I understand that and obviously you do to.. but the fact is that far too

many citizens do not, they are looking for a quick fix and I am scared they will turn when it doesn't happen...earlier, cnn showed a "SMALL" clip of Sen Obama's message regarding the economy of the us but if you watched the coverage, you would have seen that they cut him off, they did not show the whole speech which clearly states as you said that it will take time and work, most people rely on the msm, they don't have time for more investigating or watching of long speeches...


I don't know that the solution is regarding the coverage of today's local media outlets being so slack on getting the truth is but I do know this, not everyone is aware of what you or I am aware of and nor will they be unless people like you or I canvas the streets, private homes etc with pamphlets that are full of facts, data and long term solutions, I don't want people to think they are getting a quick fix, the media does, Sen obama does not but does he not see the check becomes first and foremost the only thing people see especially when the media focuses on just part and not the whole?

[Yes We Did]

115. My belief is that as the campaign continues...

And more and more people see and hear him speak (especially when he's drawing in 25,000+ at a time) the message will get out.

Every speech he delivers, it seems that he is trying to make sure people know that there is no quick fix, and it will take time to repair the damage done by the bush admin.

I accept it as a personal responsibility to make sure everyone I know understands his policies; even the republicans in my family. I think we all need to accept it as our own responsibility to get the truth out.

We cannot afford to have another republican as president.

[AuntPatsy]

124. I can agree with that, its up to you and me and others on here to ensure

Sen Obama's whole message is delivered without sound bites which offer nothing really for those who need hope and a bit of faith...

I also noticed this am that Mccain got so much more coverage of his speech today than Sen Obama did, its going to be a long eight months unless everyone works together and that includes like you said, sharing the truth and the facts with those we know and or meet outside of Du so that everyone is more aware when the time comes to pull that lever...

Thank you for being decent with me...honestly I appreciate it, sometimes I let my anger and dissapointment outweigh common sense when attempting to get a point across. I'm glad you took your time.

[Doityourself]

14. You damn right it didn't work..& that's because I didn't get one..lol

[AuntPatsy]

16. Is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of its like putting a bandaid on a wet wound.

[demokatgurrl]

18. I don't expect any because I make too much, but

the last one I got from the Bush administration I donated immediately to the Democrats. If I ever get another, I'll probably do the same thing.

[Doityourself]

29. Same boat, you and I.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

20. There's more to it than that.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/politics/ny-uscamp0610,0,5168266.story

RALEIGH, N.C. - Barack Obama spoke directly to pocketbook issues in this capital city Monday, hitting Republican John McCain hard as he outlined an economic plan that would include a second stimulus check, tax breaks for seniors and the middle class, and debt relief for students.

McCain countered that Obama's plan would raise taxes on American families and was little more than a return to the excessive spending policies of the past.

Under a "pay as you go system," Obama said he would use the revenue generated from slashing corporate tax breaks, eliminating tax loopholes, and taxing big-oil profits to pay for the plan, which includes a $10 billion foreclosure prevention fund.

Families would get up to $1,000 in tax cuts under Obama's proposal, and retirees making less than $50,000 would not have any income taxes.

---------------------------

I don't think having only one thing in common with Bush is indicative of how Obama will handle the economy. The stimulus-check plan he's offering is coupled with Democratic economic plans, while Bush's plan clearly was not.

[Phillycat]

46. Oh, right, sorry. TAX CUTS and stimulus checks.

That doesn't sound anything like Bush's plan. :rofl:

But seriously folks. There is very little progressive about this plan, other than the increase in unemployment benefits, and even Obama's most ardent supporters have to admit that to themselves if they're being honest. It's a centrist, DLC-type plan.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

52. He said he'd make up the revenue from other sources.

Bush did the opposite when he increased spending while simultaneously cutting taxes.

[wileedog]

55. Depends who the tax cuts are FOR

Its a middle class tax cut, including NO taxes for Seniors who make less than 50K. Its putting money directly back into people's hands, where it is far more likely to be spent on goods and services than putting into the wealthy classes hands.

He's also talked about numerous initiatives to keep jobs at home though incentives to stop outsourcing and massive investment into new technologies and industries, particularly Green Energy development.

Just because the words "tax cuts" are used doesn't make it anything like a Bush plan.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

57. Good point.

And unlike Bush, Obama wants to raise the capital gains tax rate.

[Yes We Did]

62. Enjoy your last day in here.

I suspect you won't be around for much longer.

[Phillycat]

72. Heh.

Oh, honey, I've been posting on this website for 7 years. Do you really think my bringing up an issue that was a front-page story in the newspaper this morning is going to get me banned, just because you didn't like it?

[Yes We Did]

81. Not because I don't like it... Because it is not even a "half" truth.

[lumpy]

144. What an asshat

x

[Runcible Spoon]

152. that's such a disgusting thing to say and you should be ashamed!

celebrating the exit of someone who truly cares about their fellow citizens! To your type, any person's deviation from wholesale pledging of loyalty and trust to a candidate should be ridiculed by nasty sarcasm. You can't stand even the slightest criticism of your pet candidate, to the point that you gloat over an otherwise concerned, involved, and progressive poster.

I think it MIGHT even be against the rules, although I don't know since I don't pore over the posting rules looking for exploits so I can cloak ad hominems with clever syntax and seeing how far I can push the mods.

*on edit: no Clinton was not my candidate either. :eyes:

[lojasmo]

143. Clintonites shouldn't use 'DLC' as a prejorative. N/T

[Bread and Circus]

21. Think of stimulus checks as a way to reinforce the progressive tax system

I 100% agree it won't fix the economy but the way the checks are written it helps people more the lower down the income scale you go. Rich folks don't benefit from the checks really.


It's robbing the rich, feeding the poor. In other words, it's a kinda sorta partial repeal of GWB tax breaks for the rich.

[onetwo]

25. Isn't it that the checks would be doled in a more targeted manner...?

[Evergreen Emerald]

27. I know. And it is akin to Clinton's stimulus gas package she recommend that he attacked

as superficial. He is not starting out on a very good note.

[Phillycat]

31. I thought the Clinton gas package was crap and I posted that here.

It was widely reviled on this board, but this is so similar and yet no one is talking about it. Have we gotten to the point that we can't talk about real issues if they make Obama look bad?

DU has never existed with a Democratic president. I'm curious to see what that will look like. Even when the Democrats gained congressional majority in 2006, we immediately started to see people's hero worship get tarnished. People took Nancy Pelosi as a personal offense, heh. How much bigger is the presidency, and how much harder will he fall in the eyes of progressives?

[AuntPatsy]

35. I think we will be at that point on the eleventh and I think this is a valid concern

and why shouldn't we address the issue, its a very real need for concern.

You know, I have been watching most of the news stations all morning, going back and forth and of course no impeachment articles being mentioned and NO mention of the fact that this country is in dire need of real change in order to help the average citizen from ending up homeless and starving.

[Abacus]

56. I don't think this is comparable to the gas tax

which would have had a number of obstacles and likely nullified anyway when corporations raised their prices to compensate.

Let me start off by saying that I am not convinced that stimulus checks are effective; the literature I've encountered states that they usually arrive too late to make a difference and that people put the money into savings or pay bills (same thing) rather than spend the money in ways that potentially boost the economy.

But, I think it's premature to call the stimulus package a failure, not everyone has received their checks yet. Even when they do, the effects will not likely be immediate. Also, Obama's plan always had a second stimulus option; he didn't craft this overnight for a poll bump.

Edit: As tempting as it was to pay bills, we spent our stimulus check on a home construction project.

[Phillycat]

61. We put ours into our French bank account, converted to Euros.

That way it will be worth something more than a wheelbarrow full of rubles in a year or so...

Every economist I've read (and the majority of smart DUers, for that matter, when Bush's stimulus plan was revealed) says that stimulus checks are a popularity contest that don't solve or even ease the problem, and do harm in the meantime.

The economy will be by far the #1 issue by November. Every word Obama speaks about it, all his plans and policies, are deserving of discussion. These words, these policies, will decide the election. If most people think Obama will help them economically, they will vote for him, period. And if your average Joe sees MSM coverage showing that Obama is trying what Bush has already tried, I don't think that inspires hope for, ahem, change. Heh.

I think it was a bad mis-step, and worthy of discussion.

[wileedog]

67. But you are not discussing the whole plan

You are cherry picking one piece of it and trying to sell it as the 'centerpiece', which it clearly is not.

Again, you want discussion, tell me what Average Joe is going to think when he finds out HIS taxes are going to be cut, not his bosses. That the government will penalize his company if they ship Joe's job overseas. That the Government will be re-investing money into rebuilding our infrastructre and finding new industries where Joe can get a job to earn even more money that he can pay less taxes on.

The stimulus check is the icing on that cake for Joe, because Obama can't do anything else until he gets into office, and Joe needs help now. That's the whole point.

[saltpoint]

69. Her goal was to ignore the big plan, as you indicate, and to instead

focus only on its most challengeable component.

It's a bitter OP, and factually skewed.

a 3-legged dog on a jagged hillside.

[AuntPatsy]

93. Try to get it okay? Try to understand where some are coming from...

lets get off of the soap box for a moment, the we verses them garbage and look at the facts and the damage the "facts" reveal and then perhaps we can focus on the long range goals a bit better..wouldn't you think?

[TBF]

121. It's not often I agree with the Hillary camp -

but I can see how the stimulus part of the speech may have hit some nerves. I still believe stimulus checks are not a long-term solution, but I can see how a series of short-term payments may ease some of the suffering (sort of like corporate bail-outs only this time people are getting help).

This is the link to the text of the full speech so you can read his other ideas:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gG5V3L
(if there is any issue with the link just go to barackobama.com - it's a link on the front page).

I've filed an extension for 2007 and haven't completely done my taxes yet, but I have a feeling our AGI will be too high to get any checks. Which is ok - we are employed, have insurance (albeit ridiculously high premiums - we pay over $700 month just to have coverage), and will cut discretionary expenses. Most working people are having a tough time now, regardless of income level. It is only the seriously wealthy with inherited money, and corporations, that have benefitted from the Bush Administration.

When I read Obama's speech the points that stuck out for me were the ideas of getting Americans working by repairing infrastructure, extending unemployment benefits, and Obama's plan to end the outrageous corporate tax incentives.

I hope everyone will read the entire speech and see where Obama is going with this. He has some great ideas, and most of them involve ending Bush's ridiculous subsidies to the super rich (capital gains) and corporations. But I do see why the stimulus checks alone would get the press' attention because we just went through that argument last month. You have to read the entire text.

[AuntPatsy]

128. I pay over 1200 for health for just my husband and I, 800 for life insurance policies..

like you, I have an extension in, but its not my fault, more my accountants one, I gave her all she needed...I agree with you that most people are having problems right now, we pretty much support three families right now which is making it tough for us though it shouldn't be but I don't mind helping but when I look at why they need help I become outraged at what our government has allowed to happen to the average citizen...

I hope your right in that more will read the entire speech without relying on the msm for the sound bites, I just saw a segment on CNN again regarding Sen Obama's speech on economics, do you know all they had was his picture to the side of the so called journalist mouth piece that in effect did not allow us the audience to hear Sen Obama, I saw his mouth moving but it was the commentator that talked about what Sen Obama was saying, I hate that, allow him to talk and quit telling me what you think he said, thats a huge problem, huge..

It might be a good idea to get his speeches and print them out and hand them out, I am just so angry and the way they are covering his message, outraged, angry and extremely disappointed once again, not surprised but when will we learn we cannot depend on the news for truth?

[saltpoint]

134. I'm for it. We could start by, you know, backing the nominee.

If that isn't too old-fashioned.

[Hard_Work]

109. I think you are

overlooking the short sightedness of the majority of the American public. People are hurting, and cash NOW is a big deal to most of us. What happens down the road happens down the road. Your "average joe" is more than willing to accept another stimulus check, and not be concerned where the money came from.

I personally think that another round of checks might actually stimulate the economy. The first round allowed people some breathing room, especially married couples with children. Maybe part of the next round will go into the economy.

[onetwo]

58. ...Except that one provides real relief and the other was a $30/3 months gimmick.

And that $30 is only if you drive enough. There is zero comparison to be made between the two initiatives.

[seaglass]

98. Please - do you know what it costs to run a police cruiser or

a fire truck or regular trucks used to transport goods? It wasn't just about money directly in your pocket.

[onetwo]

137. Do YOU?

Firstly, many state and local government agencies are gasoline TAX EXEMPT. Secondly, anyone subject to the tax would have to spend over $4500 on fuel (that's almost 30,000 miles of driving in 3 months) just to realize a $180-200 savings -- and that is only if everything works out perfectly and 1) the oil companies don't simply keep the majority of the savings, and 2) market forces don't push prices back to where they were. The gas tax holiday was a GIMMICK, plain and simple.

[wileedog]

It has nothing to do with the Clinton Gas tax

What are you talking about?

How is saving $50 over the summer in money that will just be recouped by the oil companies when they raise prices to compensate even remotely like putting thousands of dollars directly back into working family's hands?

[XemaSab]

38. I used my stimulus check

to stimulate my bank account out of the red.

If I get another stimulus check, I'm going to stimulate my phone bill so I can actually apply for jobs and have employers get ahold of me. :(

[Yes We Did]

63. 61 Comments... 1 Rec

Says it all.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

74. I'm a HUGE, devoted Obama supporter, but I have to agree...

This is a serious question. Stimulus checks are not the answer but only constitute a band-aid approach. Could the stimulus be more targeted?

[Yes We Did]

77. It is MUCH more targetted than the OP would have you believe.

I would suggest going to his website and reading up on it so when people spew garbage like this... you will know better.

[Phillycat]

80. You alone are keeping this thread kicked for me.

Thank you. :hug:

[Yes We Did]

88. You are welcome.

I'm just showing your blatant ignorance of the truth. Funny how whenever a valid point is made you ignore it and go back to how wrong the stimulus checks are... even the one you so happily deposited.

[Phillycat]

90. It must be exhausting being so angry.

I'm finished interacting with you now. I'm not who you think I am, and I'm not going away, and not everyone is going to agree with everything Obama does and says. If it makes you this pissed off, I suggest that YOU take a break from DU. Peace.

[Yes We Did]

97. I'm not pissed off at all.

And as I said, I have no problem pointing out problems with obama's policy. What I do have a problem with is people only telling a portion of the truth.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

91. To be fair, you are right. I haven't read the entire policy because I'm

at work and don't have access right now. I will read up on it to see what's up.

[Marrah_G]

78. What he should be talking about instead is:

Putting people to work at a decent wage building and installing solar arrays in the desert. We could power our whole country that way if we truly put our mind to it. Imagine the new jobs out there if we invested in not only developing new technologies but building them right here in the US. Give people start up money but require them to keep the companies here in the US.

Stop people from profiting on oil speculation and the price will fall dramatically. Then food and heat would also fall.

There is alot we could do if only our politicians had the will step up and truly make an effort.

He talks alot about Change and "yes WE can"..........give me REAL change.........give me actual results from "Yes we can".

We have ALOT going wrong right now and he is going to have to really step forward with new and very bold ideas and he will need the courage to push for them without concern about re-election or his career. To many times good ideas are shelved because our politicians lack the courage to stand up for what they know should be done.

[wileedog]

102. That's EXACTLY what he is talking about!

Please, go read his speech context or his website. The OP just pulled this one issue out to focus on it.

[Marrah_G]

111. I'll take a look at it.

I hope you're right and I hope he has the guts to follow through on these things.

[Yes We Did]

103. He has also talked about everything you just listed off.

Despite what others might have you believe.

[Teaser]

92. It's likely crap, but

I don't care much. I expect lots of crap. If I get slightly less, I'm happy.

[rox63]

112. Handing out checks is only a small part of an economic stimulus package

The major part of any economic stimulus package has to include programs and proposals that put people back to work, and help control the out-of-control cost-of-living.

[democrattotheend]

129. I think it's supposed to be a payroll tax rebate

Although I don't understand why do it as a rebate. Why not just cut the payroll tax?

[Phillycat]

133. No. It's stimulus checks, just like Bush released.

There are tax cuts in Obama's plan, but the stimulus checks are separate from that.

[Writer]

130. I think Dick Cheney should sell some of his shares of Halliburton stock...

and offer all of us stimulus checks of about a million each.

[Marie26]

139. And how about that capital gains tax cut?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[lojasmo]

142. You need to start paying attention.

Obama has a fifteen page PDF on his website regarding the economy. Exactly one paragraph is devoted to stimulus checks....and that's for people who NEED it...not for everybody.

Can't wait for tomorrow. I wonder if you'll be able to restrain yourself.

[Duder]

145. Yes, he does...

'In St. Louis, Obama (D-Ill.) called for expanding health insurance to all Americans, reducing income inequality and raising taxes on wealthy Americans, as part of his emphasis on providing immediate relief to hard-hit families. Obama has called for a $50 billion economic stimulus plan that would include rebate checks, aid for the unemployed, subsidies for those who cannot afford health insurance and tax cuts for middle-income Americans.

To pay for his plans, Obama would raise a variety of taxes, including increasing the capital gains rate to 20 percent, increasing taxes for families with incomes over $250,000 and raising the cap on taxing Social Security income, now set at $102,000, by taxing income over $250,000.'

...

The difference is reflected by the people they have selected to advise them on the economy. McCain's policy director, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, used to run the Congressional Budget Office, and one of his top outside advisers on economic issues is former Hewlett-Packard chief executive Carly Fiorina.

Obama's lead economics adviser, Jason Furman, worked in the Clinton White House and is known for writing about expanding health insurance, while domestic policy director Heather Higginbottom is a former aide to Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.). Campaign aides said they are also planning to reach out to other experienced Democrats including former Treasury secretaries Lawrence H. Summers and Robert E. Rubin.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/10/AR2008061003477.html?hpid=topnews

[guruoo]

147. Please tell me this ain't so.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Straight Shooter]

149. It is so.

And for all the gnashing of teeth about "cherry-picking" one portion of the policy, it's human nature to look at "what's in it for me." So the average voter isn't thinking about all the rest of the economic policy, they're thinking short-term gain and let's worry about the future later. A stimulus check is easy to understand, something to look forward to, easy to spend.

I'll send mine to the NRDC.

[guruoo]

150. Kudos to the BO rapid response team for a timely crushing of the revolt.

:rofl:

[Kahuna]

153. I agree. It's a "gimmick." nt