Seeing a lot of pro-Camille-Paglia posts. Do you guys know who she is?

[Maddy McCall]

Just because someone is critical of a person you dislike, it doesn't mean that that person is admirable, or that she shares your values.

Camille Paglia is an antifeminist pit bull who advocates conservative, anti-woman positions. (I'd recommend that some of you read Susan Faludi's Backlash for more information on Paglia's disgusting brand of "feminism.")

Please educate yourselves about this woman before you prop her up as some kind of liberal hero. What's next? Lauding Ann Coulter because she slams someone you loathe, too?

[Buzz Clik]

1. The comparison to Coulter is fitting.

Paglia. yech.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Paglia is not a moron.

She is a rather twisted intellectual aging anti-feminist lesbian(or not) punk academic with a brain, while Coulter is simply a moronic rightwing bimboid who cannot even plagiarize a coherent thought of any complexity.

[Maddy McCall]

23. Very little of Paglia's antifeminist assertions are backed by real research.

She presents anecdotes as if they are fact.

On the topic of feminism, she's a pseudointellectual...much like Coulter. And they dip from the same pool, as far as funding goes.

[TheWraith]

55. So says the assertions presented as fact. Ipse dixit, anyone? nt

[Buzz Clik]

70. Coulter a moron? No. We constantly underrate our opponents, to our detriment.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. She's very strange.

And even aside from advocating a pretty perverse form of "feminism," she is also completely full of herself. Her writing style is really pompous and condescending. I've never liked her, and on the rare occasions when I've even slightly agreed with her it's always for a different reason.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. This happens everytime Paglia opens her mouth.

We get boatloads of the naive reposting her shit here. Although, in all fairness, she doesn't seem to be quite as atrocious as she was in her flaming youth.

[JoFerret]

128. Now you make me want to defend her.

.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. Yup!

they love Andrew Sullivan, too.

[Pushed To The Left]

131. I'm not familiar with Paglia, but the reason I think a lot of progressives like Andrew Sullivan

is because we like to see a conservative show signs of coming around. I've heard Sullivan say that he is supporting Barack Obama, which I am always glad to hear somebody say!

[TheWraith]

6. Uh, no. You might not agree with her, but your characterization is wildly wrong.

For starters, she supports legalization of recreational drugs and prostitution. She's also pro fetishism, pornography, and homosexuality. That's hardly "conservative."

Also, Faludi is a fairly fringe-worthy character who, among other things, argues that 9/11 helped sexism because it fostered a climate of men protecting women from attack.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. actually

most classical conservatives would support those things. They believe in the smallest government possible.

[TheWraith]

12. Yeah, and monkeys would fly out of my butt.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, there's practical definition of "conservative," and "pro gay" ain't it.

[QC]

15. You've never heard of libertarian conservatives?

They are rare, but some conservatives really do mean it when they talk about small government. Barry Goldwater's opposition to the military gay ban is an example of that approach.

[Maddy McCall]

18. You know who funds her "research," don't you?

She's conservative funded.

[Maddy McCall]

21. You obviously aren't well aquainted with Paglia's anti-gay rhetoric.

She has written some despicable things about gay men.

Saying that she's pro-gay just because she's a lesbian is idiotic.

[TheWraith]

Okay, you're wrong on two more points.

One, I assume you're referring to her argument that homosexuality isn't an in-born trait, or possibly her romanticization of pederasty. Neither of which falls into the category of "conservatism," and while you may or may not agree with her, one of the things liberals are supposed to be about is free debate.

Second, Paglia isn't a lesbian. She describes herself as having been a lesbian in college, now bisexual, and living with a man--probably one of the reasons she sees sexuality as being unfixed.

Again, whether you agree with Paglia or not--and personally I don't particularly give a fuck--it's dishonest and shameful to try and blindly brand somebody as a conservative homophobe because you disagree with things they say. You're engaged in demonizing someone because you don't like their opinions. Replace "conservative" with "anti-American" and you're doing exactly the thing the Republicans love to do.

[woolldog]

53. excellent post

[tishaLA]

81. Wewll, many people believe that sexuality is unfixed

but it's how one arrives at that position--precisely how sexuality is unfixed and what "sexuality" as a mode of identification means--that matters.

[KAZ]

33. I sure hate defending MF, but in regards to what most of us old..

..folks think about the term "classical conservative", he's spot on.

[MonkeyFunk]

38. aw, it didn't hurt THAT much, did it?

:P

[KAZ]

44. Nah. Always kind of liked you, but I hate your sig pic.

I know it's your logo, but it seems to get me angry! :)

[stevenleser]

59. I thought I was the only one that felt that way.

That sig pic is anger-invoking.

[terrya]

71. His sig line pic is from "Family Guy"

I believe.

[polmaven]

74. Why does it get you angry?

Other than the resemblance to the Bush?

[TheWraith]

41. Show me an era where the conservatives embraced gays, and I'll agree with you.

The "less government conservative" is, by and large, a myth.

[KAZ]

43. I'm going way back. Here's an easy link. Think Goldwater.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/bulgarians/barry-goldwater.html

[Captain Hilts]

107. And Vince Lombardi, who was a conservative Dem but his brother was gay.

He had no problem with gays playing for the Redskins.

[Scout]

110. Camille Paglia is no feminist n/t

[JoFerret]

127. Go boil bicycles

Faludi fringe?

lol

[KAZ]

7. Wow, I agree with Maddy.

I'm starting to like this new forum.

[Maddy McCall]

19. Cool!

It's good to see Obama supporters stand up against Paglia.

:hi:

[KAZ]

28. She ringed my bell for a few months in the early '90s...

.. but I was young, and a Rand deluded Libertarian at the time. Man, it seems like a lifetime ago.

[Jakes Progress]

133. I'm older than that

but I remember in my youth when I came to the realization that Rand was full of shit. It was like a load of garbage removed from my mind. It does seem ages ago, as well as a source of embarrassment, that I thought she might have something important to say. What is it about our callow youth that makes us prey for such charlatans. Paglia is just such a poser.

[Plaid Adder]

30. Yes! A toast to Camille Paglia,

against whom Clintonians and Obamanians alike can unite in their shared loathing and contempt!

:toast:

The Plaid Adder

[Captain Hilts]

8. Paglia has all but faded away because she's batshit crazy. nt

[bluedawg12]

51. Molly Ivins had her number.LOL

A few others have the same low opinion of her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia#cite_note-3


>>When Paglia came onto the public scene in 1991, Molly Ivins wrote a scathing review of Sexual Personae in which she accused Paglia of historical inaccuracy, demagoguery of second-wave feminists, egocentrism, and writing in sweeping generalizations.<62> Ivins concluded her polemic against Paglia with this much-reproduced passage:

“ There is one area in which I think Paglia and I would agree that politically correct feminism has produced a noticeable inequity. Nowadays, when a woman behaves in a hysterical and disagreeable fashion, we say, "Poor dear, it's probably PMS." Whereas, if a man behaves in a hysterical and disagreeable fashion, we say, "What an asshole." Let me leap to correct this unfairness by saying of Paglia, Sheesh, what an asshole.


Her views on issues such as date rape, pornography, gay rights and educational reform mostly angered people on the political left, who accused her of such things as misogyny, homophobia and neoconservatism. A selection of her articles, lectures and other writings from this period appeared in her next book, Sex, Art, and American Culture.


Huw Christie, "AIDS and Decadence" Continuum, vol 4, issue 3, p 20.
What did you mean when you said of Michel Foucault that if what you'd reliably heard of his public behavior after he knew he had AIDS is true then he should be condemned by any ethical person?
People say this was not true, blah blah blah. I'm sorry, I happen to believe it. This information came to me very reliably. There were only two people between me and Foucault. Foucault told a famous gay writer, who told my close friend, who told me, that when he realized he had AIDS, he was so angry that he determined he would take as many with him as he could. He would take as many to death as he could. That he deliberately went to bars and would deliberately have sex with people and not tell them and try actively to take them with him


Some frankly glorify male dominance, among them Camille Paglia, who being a woman can say things -- that the California high school date-rape gang known as the Spur Posse is "beautiful," for example -- that might make even Rush Limbaugh blanch.”

Her rejection of the idea that homosexuality is an inborn trait ( is at odds with progressive thinking<<

[tishaLA]

78. Her rumor-mongering about Foucault is one of her many despicable

bits of hatred. It imposes an anachronistic narrative--there was no HIV test until a couple months before he died; his doctors weren't certain he had AIDS even days before his death; modes of transmission of HIV were significantly less well-known in 1984 than today--in order to vilify someone personally rather to engage him intellectual (which, of course, Paglia could never do). She also ignores the fact that Foucault's philosophical stance on issues of power made him, and other intellectual (and non-intellectuals) believe that "AIDS" was less a disease than a new way of constructing the gay male body as the site of medical knowledge.

She's a vile person.

[Captain Hilts]

105. Good for Molly, who believed in drinkin', yellin', swearin' and screwin'.

Seeeeee yooooooooou, in Nov-em-buuuuurrrr...

[eppur_se_muova]

116. Geaux Molly!

She may be dead a year and a half, but she still sees more clearly than most of us.

“ There is one area in which I think Paglia and I would agree that politically correct feminism has produced a noticeable inequity. Nowadays, when a woman behaves in a hysterical and disagreeable fashion, we say, "Poor dear, it's probably PMS." Whereas, if a man behaves in a hysterical and disagreeable fashion, we say, "What an asshole." Let me leap to correct this unfairness by saying of Paglia, Sheesh, what an asshole."

[ZinZen]

9. The best part about reading

Paglia shuffling ramblings on Salon, is to go the comments and see how many of Salon's readership despises her.

[xchrom]

11. her and andrew sullivan are conservatives --

but they are routinely resurected here as beacons of something -- it's bullshit.

[QC]

13. Maddy, they do the same thing with Andrew Sullivan here.

It sickens me to see him treated as a progressive icon, but there you have it.

At least Paglia can be witty and has had some interesting things to say about pop culture and the influence of French theory on American humanities scholarship--Sully is just a one-trick contrarian pony.

[eridani]

62. Stopped clocks are right twice a day

Pat Buchanan was against the IWR too.

[beachmom]

119. So no quoting anyone but the approved liberal purist list? What utter crap.

I think we can quote anyone here, even someone diametrically opposed to progressive values, if they express an interesting opinion on a current event.

[JoFerret]

129. Good points.

.

[jonestonesusa]

138. Ever hear of coalition building?

I don't think anyone here on DU is going to buy out the collection of writings by Andrew Sullivan or Camille Paglia from their local used bookstore.

However, it's no heresy to notice when persons who are ideologically opposed to most of your points of view support a stance of yours. We are seeing signs that the ice may be cracking on the conservative coalition that has made so much hay in the last three decades. Frankly, if Democrats had been better at building coalitions to support their point of view, we wouldn't have had 30 years of neoconservative nonsense.

Personally, I want to see a new coalition that gets results. I want to see conversation across the aisle and serious action, just as some of the conservatives of old (circa 1970s) supported the Clean Air and Water Act, supported affirmative action, agreed to appoint judges that believed in the law (other than Rehnquist, an arguably satisfactory record for a while on Supreme Court appointments, going back to Earl Warren)and even were willing to accept the imminent impeachment of Richard Nixon.

[bridgit]

14. Yep, proving further some will listen to *anyone* so long as they are discounting HRC...

[Captain Hilts]

106. Too true. nt

[madrchsod]

16. she`s really awful

she spins her tales of woe and she expects us to feel sorry for her plight. cami and annie would make an interesting couple

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

20. She is a pseudointellectual windbag.

Very little of her antifeminist theory is grounded in anything but anecdote.

That is one thing that she has in common with Coulter, another "postfeminist feminist."

[Plaid Adder]

29. Absolutely Paglia is a pseudointellectual windbag.

However, though it pains me to say anything positive about her, I do think that when comparing her to Ann Coulter one should remember to point out that Paglia is a) smarter b)saner and c)closer to being able to construct a rational argument. Also, Paglia's invective is generally less offensive and sometimes more creative; but then again, it could hardly fail to be.

The only good thing about Ann Coulter, in fact, is that I know that it must piss Paglia off that Coulter gets more attention and probably more money for doing the same shit Paglia used to do with 1/10th of the brainpower and probably 1/20th of the vocabluary. Every time Coulter sells a book, I figure, it's like another little dagger in Camille Paglia's spleen.

Anyway. I never pass up the chance to stick it to her when it presents itself. And I have no idea what she said about Clinton, but I'm sure it wasn't good, because the only way Paglia ever gets herself into the headlines is by slamming another woman.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[Ichingcarpenter]

42. thank you.... I agree on your assessment

She is from the branch of philosophy called Deconstructionist.
I'm not an advocate of that branch of philosophy
but I find the arguments intriguing though lacking in
objective observation and enveisious reliance on grammatology


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction

[progressive_realist]

61. OK, you made my night

Speaking as a former lit theory minor.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[tishaLA]

87. OMG Paglia is about as far from a deconstructionist

as I can imagine. I'd be interested in a someone presenting a SINGLE idea Paglia has that anyone can call "deconstructive"--in fact, she has been hostile practitioners of deconstruction, especially Derrida and Cixous.

[jumptheshadow]

64. Picking your post to make a bunch of points

1) Sane....hmmmm....won't say why, but nooooooooooooooo....

Repeat: noooooooooooooooooo......

2) In answer to another post, she has been in a committed lesbian relationship for years. Sigh, unfortunately, we do have to claim her.

3) The following paragraph from the Salon column says it all about her credibility:

>>Meanwhile, conservative talk radio, which I have been following with interest for almost 20 years, has become a tornado alley of hallucinatory holograms of Obama. He's a Marxist! A radical leftist! A hater of America! He's "not that bright"; he can't talk without a teleprompter. He knows nothing and has done less. His wife is a raging mass of anti-white racism. It's gotten to the point that I can hardly listen to my favorite shows, which were once both informative and entertaining. The hackneyed repetition is numbing and tedious, and the overt character assassination is ethically indefensible. Talk radio will lose its broad audience if it continues on this nakedly partisan path.<<

I don't think I've ever seen a bigger, more repetitive, narcissist. And after her years of Madonna drooling (writing about her in every third column or so), I laughed out loud when she finally confessed what happened during her first encounter with Madonna. There was some discussion that they work on a project together but Madonna asked for her to be pointed out in a room and then rejected her on sight....

[bluedawg12]

52. She's all about self promotion-

I've heard her interviewed and it was penny dreadful.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Could you give us some sourced information?

thanks.

[Writer]

24. Not only is she anti-feminist, but she is an incredibly pretentious, narcissistic writer.

Ref: Sexual Personae: Art and Decadence from Nefertiti to Emily Dickinson

[Maddy McCall]

25. Yes.

She's built her reputation NOT on her scholarship, but on her puffery.

[Darth_Kitten]

84. She's just plain self-centred and weird.

:D

[SwampG8r]

26. ive seen it all day maddie and im confused by it

i think we are being trolled quite frankly

[Maddy McCall]

31. That could explain it.

:hi:

[SwampG8r]

35. hey

:toast: :shrug: :loveya: :hi: :hug:
glad to see you here maddy

[Maddy McCall]

36. Back atcha!

:loveya:

:hug:

Got a good recipe for coconut cake? Tomorrow's my pa's birthday, and I want to make one for him.

[SwampG8r]

40. i been cooking since 1963 i got recipes for every

damn thing on earth
i have a recipe for a camel stuffed with an ostrich
what do you want the cake to be light and fluffy or thick and rich?
i like to run a dark cocolate cake under white frosting and then cover that with toasted coconut
tell me what you want from the cake ill give a recipe

[SwampG8r]

45. check your inbox

[devilgrrl]

27. Ohhh, they know who she is, that's why they're posting her crap.

Don't underestimate those clowns.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. agreed! and thank you for the much needed schooling thread Maddy

:yourock:

[Maddy McCall]

34. Hey!

:pals:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

50. you too

:loveya:

[KAZ]

37. I forgot the K&R!

[QC]

39. Richard Goldstein refers to both Paglia and Sullivan as "attack queers."

He has an interesting take on their role in the media. Here are some excerpts from an excellent article on the subject:

Imagine Ward Connerly, the black opponent of affirmative action—or a scathing antifeminist like Katie Roiphe—getting a column on race or women's issues in the Times. Yet when it comes to gays, the more "politically incorrect" you are—and the more cutting toward queer culture—the farther you get in the liberal media.

Consider Camille Paglia, the attack dyke who graces the virtual pages of Salon. Not many people hold Matthew Shepard responsible for the torture he suffered, but Paglia has. Not many columnists refer to fragile men as "sissies," but Paglia does. Not many people still think gay men are shaped by "some protracted childhood trauma has overwhelmed nature's pleasure-giving hormonal promptings," but Paglia believes precisely that. Her pronouncement is the premise of Christian corrective therapy. Yet her throwback persona is precisely what makes her a draw. Like Sullivan, Paglia relies on gay-culture bashing to certify herself as an independent thinker. And like Sullivan, she thrives on the sexual backlash.

These gayocons stand outside the tradition of queer humanism that runs from Oscar Wilde and E.M. Forster to James Baldwin, Tennessee Williams, and Allen Ginsberg. The moral core of this lineage—its compassion, its critique of power, its respect for the sexual—still informs queer culture. It is gay liberation. But this sensibility is barely visible in the liberal media. (You have to read the radical press to find the real thing.) What has emerged instead reflects the uneasiness that remains about gay coverage, even as genteel acceptance has replaced active abhorrence. No matter how secure we may feel, the fact is that gay people live in a halfway house at best. We are out on parole.

...

Why are attack queers so appealing to straight liberals? The fact is that launching an attack on gay "orthodoxies" is the surest route to celebrity for a homosexual thinker. Anyone who breaks with the movement is called courageous; anyone who mocks queer mores is seen as a true individual. In reality, writers like Paglia and Sullivan are reassuring rogues, affirming the biases that straights dare not admit they hold. Revulsion at gay sexuality remains imbedded in the liberal mind. Attack queers speak to that hidden loathing, expressing their audience's forbidden feelings. They are as nasty as straight liberals wanna be.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0125,goldstein,25701,1.html

[bluedawg12]

49. Uh...she's a reformed queer, isn't she?

Now it's just an academic exercise, slightly distant, and may be just a little superior?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia#cite_note-3
>>As told to Dan Savage, "The Stranger" (Seattle, Washington), September 28 - October 4, 1992:

"I took the career price for that. I shoved my lesbianism down people's throats when I wasn't getting any pleasure from it; I couldn't find anyone to be with! There is the irony, I took all the negatives without any of the positives! I tried. I tried to pick up women, I tried. In 1969 I traveled Europe with the handbook, The Gay Guide to Europe. I went from place to place, every city, and I thought, "What is the problem here?" All the gay men are finding contacts everywhere! You can't avoid it! Bus terminals, toilets, diners, everywhere! Finally I had to conclude, after so many decades of frustration, that lesbians are not looking for sex. It's not about sex. They think it's about sex. It's about mommy! It's about mommy is what it's about!" <<

[Emit]

46. Just because someone is critical of a person you dislike

... it doesn't mean that that person is admirable, or that he or she shares your values.

And we endured the following, and more, for much too long. Your comment could've applied then, too.

Hitchens:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5825972

Pajama's Media:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5480617

Michael Goodwin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5479562

Joe Scarborough:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5280301

Michael Meyers:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5191013

Charles Krauthammer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5187540

[rove karl rove]

47. this thread is a Pagalia education course for me

all I'd heard of her before that she was in academia as a supporter of neo-feminism and that her articles tend to ramble.

[On the Road]

48. She is a Democrat

and in 2004 was an Edwards supporter. Just to throw that in.

Paglia gets quoted so often because she has a talent for saying provocative things containing germs of truth which are not comfortably expressed today. I enjoyed her book on gender roles in Western art and literature. I would never in a million years want to adopt her recommendations as policy.

[RandomKoolzip]

54. The last time Paglia mattered to anyone, Candlebox and Ugly Kid Joe were having hit records.

The only "feminist" misogynists can accept has buffaloed herself into utter irrelevance.

[fishwax]

134. so true -- i was shocked to see her name in a thread title the other day, not so much

because of her views, but because I couldn't imagine anyone finding her opinion on a current situation remotely relevant :shrug: It wasn't quite a "she's still alive?" reaction, but more of a "people know/care that she's still around?" reaction.

[stevenleser]

56. Not a fan of hers at all. I am a fan of third wave feminists and associated movements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_feminism

which would be somewhat at odds with what she preaches as third wave feminism is much more tolerant of gay rights & gender fluidity. Rebecca Walker is my kind of feminist. Naomi Wolf is my kind of feminist. The vagina monologues is my kind of feminist artistry.

[girl gone mad]

57. I saw her get her..

ass handed to her about ten years ago by a bunch of Harvard undergrad girls.

I don't know if she's really dumb or she just plays dumb to sell books.

[Raineyb]

58. I know who she is

And usually disagree with her but hey even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Regards

[bhikkhu]

60. Thanks for the heads up

Perhaps I haven't been online enough...but this is the first time I have heard of Paglia. She doesn't sound like much of a VP choice, particularly for Obama. No need for someone who seems to carry more baggage and negatives than any of the candidates..

[JVS]

63. I don't care for her. I do find it funny that she got Steinem to go Godwin on her.

[Darth_Kitten]

76. Steinem eats anti-feminists like Paglia for breakfast.

n/t

[JVS]

79. Losing your cool and calling someone Hitler isn't eating for breakfast, it's embarrassing yourself.

[Darth_Kitten]

80. LOL........what? Steinem calling someone Hitler?

Oh. Link. PLEASE. :eyes:

[JVS]

83. .

http://www.divamag.co.uk/diva/features.asp?AID=1918&s=1

Paglia returned the favor by calling her Stalin. Way to get into the mud with the pig, Gloria.

[Darth_Kitten]

90. Divamag?

Doesn't sound like Steinem, she's cool under pressure.

[Recursion]

98. I sure remember it

I read Sexual Personae just to see what the hell could get Steinem so pissed off.

[Luminous Animal]

121. Do you have a link?

I spent my lunch hour researching an original source for this accusation. The only thing I could find is Paglia herself making that claim in her DIVA interview. Even wiki's only source is the DIVA interview.

I'm not saying that it didn't happen but I can't find any evidence that it did.

[Recursion]

122. I'll see if I can find it; I think it was re: Paglia defending Larry Flynt

Most of Steinem's Nazi comparisons I know off the top of my head came from that period (and, let's be honest, she did say anyone who went to see that movie were morally equivalent to Nazi sympathizers...) But like I said I'll see if I can still find her particular zing against Paglia.

[Luminous Animal]

123. No she did not..

Here is her entire op-ed.

http://manufacturedcontempt.wordpress.com/2007/06/18/hollywood-cleans-up-hustler/


Edited for spelling.

[Recursion]

126. Ummm... exactly

You did... umm... read the op-ed, right?

[Luminous Animal]

130. How about you point out where she said that

"anyone who went to see that movie were morally equivalent to Nazi sympathizers"?

What she said was this:

Larry Flynt the Movie is even more cynical than Larry Flynt the Man. “The People vs. Larry Flynt” claims that the creator of Hustler magazine is a champion of the First Amendment, deserving our respect. That isn’t true.

Let’s be clear: a pornographer is not a hero, no more than a publisher of Ku Klux Klan books or a Nazi on the Internet, no matter what constitutional protection he secures. And Mr. Flynt didn’t secure much.

Hustler, the KKK, and an American Neo-Nazi all engage in elimination and torture rhetoric and imagery against a subset of the population. And both the KKK and other Neo-nazi organizations similarly have fought for "freedom of speech" yet few would champion them as heroes.

[Stingo]

65. Paglia anti-feminist?

There's a long history in American feminism (world feminism, for that matter) of women who advocate pro-sex positions, then are attacked as anti-feminist precisely for those pro-sex positions. While we feminists generally do not have a problem with the pro-sex aspects of a pro-choice stance, we tned to have difficulty dealing with theorists such as Paglia who advocate women radically taking charge of their sexuality.

Further, Paglia comes from a newer tradition in this country that has tried to call attention to those issues our society often shuns and marginalizes. How could we expect her to do otherwise -- she was educated by the foremost of the Yale School Deconstructionists. Many people, back in the heyday of academic deconstruction in the late 70's through the early 90's, attacked deconstruction without engaging ideas. Liberals claimed that such a philosophy advocated a return to conservative values, and, conversely, conservatives claimed that it was a dangerously radical way of thinking. Could they both be right? Well, the postmodern practice of deconstruction was quite the academic exercise and returned value to such practices as close reading and classical texts. I don't think that makes it conservative. Deconstructionb was mostly accused of being amoral, but again, I think that's overblown.

Is Paglia conservative? No. Paglia is certainly not mainstream liberal, though.

[Darth_Kitten]

77. She's feminist just like Hoff Summers is feminist. Which means.....

she's anti-feminist.

[Recursion]

95. She self-identifies as a feminist

Do you feel you are sufficiently qualified as a gatekeeper to feminism to shut her out?

[izzybeans]

99. Her problem is that she is an Iconoclast and as Molly Ivins said "an asshole"

I can't say I agree with her on most points, but she does have the reactionary nature of identity politics pegged pretty well. Yet she doesn't get the irony of her own reactionary firebrand bullshit everytime she calls someone else a reactionary.

I don't think she understands post-structuralism (she clearly doesn't read feminist sociology of science) and she definitely resents the prestige bestowed upon French philosophy and the primarily non-academic American public feminist icons.

I've only read her public writings on anti-sexuality. I agree with her critics that she overgeneralizes a fringe element in the women's movement, however seductive their critiques of American culture maybe. There is only so many SCUM Manifesto readings one can make, and those were the ramblings of a rightfully troubled individual.

She should also keep her ideas about socialization and sexual attraction out of politics. She conflates (whether she intends it or not I don't know) a long running ontological problem between the social and political sciences with Rush Limbaugh style bullshit about it "being a choice". The socialization thesis in fact does not support that. "Rational Choice" is a myth that supports our current unequal economic conditions and rightwingers use it as a hammer in sexual politics. This is why it is politically correct to use the "it's biological" thesis. It's an academic discussion that has been politicized by people who have no idea what they are actually saying. I would put her in that camp.

[JoFerret]

66. Wise advice

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. (It was amusing to see the all-of-a-sudden Paglia fans when she started bashing Clinton.)
While I don't completely agree with the OP's characterization of Paglia I do find it very off to see her voice adopted wholesale as one of reason, sanity and principle.

As with most people of substance - she is more complex that a mere mouthpiece with a convenient set of opinions. A liberal hero? Not much. Not to many. Not to me.

[sufrommich]

67. I was wondering he same thing,I get on DU with my

morning coffee and see Camille Paglia being touted as "one the world's leading intellectuals"!:crazy:

[terrya]

68. Completely agree 1000%, Maddy.

Thank you for pointing that out about her. I feel the same way about her that I do about Andrew Sullivan...I don't trust either of them.

Recommended post, btw.

[Maddy McCall]

112. Thanks, hon.

:hi:

[jonnyblitz]

69. I just read the article Paglia wrote that everybody is posting.

I wonder if the people posting this actually READ the whole article. Paglia PRAISES right wing talk radio. She only NOW begins to criticize it because they diss Obama and she is an Obama supporter. She claims that RW radio will lose listenership because it has NOW become so partisan. WTF!?!? she doesn't think RW talk radio was partisan until Obama came along? She also referred to the Hillary supporters at the Hillary concession speech as "screeching worshipers". I wonder if she has anything to say about the chanting Obama fans that pass out at his rallies, overcome with excitement (speaking of being WORSHIPFUL). this obnoxious lady is a fucking gasbag. I can remember her praising Rush Limbaugh in the 90's and Rush bragging about it.

[bettyellen]

82. hey you!

:hug:
how are you?

[jonnyblitz]

88. fine, thanks!!

:hug: :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

114. You!

Good to see you!!

:loveya:

:hug:

[jonnyblitz]

120. hello! :D

I have two Camille Paglia books(Sexual Personae and Sex,Art, and American Culture:essays) that I haven't read. I bought them real cheap in a second hand book store in the 90's. back in those days I was more tolerant of opposing views though I was more curious about her cultural and art critique than I was with her views on politics.

[Canuckistanian]

72. Rush Limbaugh likes her

That's all I need to know.

A while back, the Pigboy was at some awards show and he was seated next to her. Apparently, they hit it off and Maha-Piggy said that she wasn't that bad "for a feminazi".

[terrya]

73. That right there says it all.

UGH.

[rodeodance]

75. Good post Maddy and I have read Susan Faludi's Backlash a while ago.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JerseygirlCT]

86. Yes, thank you. She's vile. Absolutely loathsome. nt

[reflection]

89. I want to publicly apologize.

I posted a pro-Paglia comment a few weeks ago. I was not as informed about her as I was before I read this thread and did some further research. I guess every day is a new learning experience. Sorry people.

[Maddy McCall]

109. Awesome, reflection. No apology needed at all.

Just glad that you read up on her and see why some people can't stand her.

:yourock:

[Recursion]

91. Eh. Paglia's the yin of the 3rd-wave yang

Or the yang to the yin (I get them mixed up). I'm troubled by the absolute ease with which people call her "antifeminist"; I think Wolf called her a latter-day Schlafly (to say nothing of Steinem calling her Hitler). But her language of reclamation and empowerment have meant a lot to a lot of women. *shrug*

I think what really sets Paglia off is stuff like Wolf's claim that "we're living in a new Holocaust" because "millions of teenage girls die every year" from patriarchy-induced eating disorders (forgive me if I'm misquoting but that is the gist). As 3rd-wave as Wolf is, that rhetoric jumps right back into the 2nd-wave mistake of equating suburban middle class white women with all women, and continues the identity of the Feminine with the Victimized.

Actually, if I had to find a pigeonhole to shove Paglia into, I'd say she's gangsta rap to the 2nd wave's Stokely Carmichael -- depending on your perspective, either reclaiming language that once was oppressive, or continuing right where the oppressors left off.

[Darth_Kitten]

92. 2nd wave mistake of equating suburban middle class white women with all women?

No, don't think they did that. If anything, they worked too hard at being inclusive and overly political correct.

[Recursion]

94. Well, I didn't make up that charge

It's a very common critique of 2nd-wave by 3rd-wavers.

It's why so much of 1970's feminist work was done on pay equality: white, middle class women were finding they made less than white, middle class men. On the other hand, black women made a lot more than black men, and the state's war on the black male left many black women as the only breadwinners in a family. Their issues were not whether this or that manager got promoted, but whether they could keep food on the table and keep their kids from being shot by the police or by other kids.

That's off the top of my head; if you want me to go through the whole 3rd-wave founding literature and rehash their (much more thoroughly-researched than mine) argument, I will, but that really is the main cleft between waves 2 and 3: that female solidarity does not mean conformance to white middle class female expectations.

[blondeatlast]

93. She's the ultimate self-loathing-(everything she is) but she's one hell of a self-promoter.

If she were never mentioned here again, I'd find this an even better place to be.

I can't believe otherwise decent social progressives find her worthy of merit.

Thanks, Maddy--I agree 100%.

[nxylas]

96. Don't know much about Paglia, but I don't like what I do know

I first became aware of her when she famously said that if women had been in charge throughout history, we'd all still be living in caves. I also read a glowing review by her of the Sylvester Stallone turkey Judge Dredd, which shows that she has lousy taste in movies.

[Avalux]

97. I don't think they do Maddy.

You and I haven't agreed on much over the past few months, but you're right on target about Paglia. She makes me wanna :puke:

[anonymous171]

100. After her "man blaming" comment, I thought as much.

[izzybeans]

101. She's another in the long-line of the "why are you so important" that

wind up in public or on the news speaking for money.

[TwilightGardener]

102. I don't always agree with her, but sometimes her writing is spot-on.

Her brand of feminism may not be to everyone's liking, but I'm not looking to her to lead the movement or light the way--I just sometimes like her take on things.

[WinkyDink]

103. Yes, I do. I found her essay on Hitchcock's "The Birds" elucidating.

[Skittles]

104. she is a disgusting piece of garbage

no need to educate me, Maddy :)

[RichardRay]

108. She's very smart, and has interesting things to say, and I disagree

with her on political and environmental points most of the time. That doesn't make her a bad person, just wrong a lot of the time. OTOH, on cultural issues she's often right on.

[Maddy McCall]

111. She's Ann Coulter, Ayn Rand, and Rush Limbaugh all rolled up into one, with a PhD in English Lit.

If that's what you think is "smart and interesting" and "right on" on cultural issues, then goody for you.

[RichardRay]

117. Coulter and Limbaugh are hardly 'smart and interesting'

although Ayn Rand would qualify. That said, I wouldn't say Ayn Rand is correct about very much, but I know lots of smart and interesing people who are consistently wrong on some subjects.

On cultural issues I was thinking in terms of literary criticism than 'cultural' in any other sense, so her English Lit. credentials are worth something, there.

In general, I do believe quite strongly that people with whom I often disagree can be smart and interesting. Note, for instance, that you are not on my Ignore list here in DU :-).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. I've heard this before.

That Camille Paglia is an "anti-woman" "pro-rape" misogynist.

Usually from pro-Dworkin nuts who never back up their assertations.

The only reference I've seen in this forum recently regarding Paglia is a perfectly decent analysis on prominent VP possibilities written by Paglia, so characterizing that as "propping her up as some kind of liberal hero" would be, frankly, stupid.

[cbayer]

115. I am so glad you posted this.

I have been trying to take these on one at a time with limited success. Your approach is much more effective and this thread should be tacked to any further OP's that sing Paglia's praises.

I would really like to see the good people of gd:p begin to do their homework. Just because someone says something you want to hear does not mean they are right.

[beachmom]

118. She runs hot and cold. I read one of her books a long time ago, and

I don't remember being outraged. Doesn't mean I would agree with her on many things, but that is like saying you can never quote anyone unless they were a liberal purist. That is not my philosophy.

[zulchzulu]

124. What posts or links do you refer to?

I'm not a big fan of Paglia, but what are you referring to...

:shrug:

[khashka]

125. I admit I like her

don't always agree with her but I like her. She's not really a liberal but she makes some good points sometimes.
Like when she got trashed on Oprah about date rape. All she said was that women shouldn't get drunk and pass out in frathouses - bad things are likely to happen. The guys are still rapists, but women shouldn't put themselves in that situation. I agree.

There are lots of things she says I don't agree with, though. I sometimes think her heart is made of stone. But I like tough, fierce intelligent women.

Khash

[Batgirl]

132. A few of the ramblings from her Salon columns circa Election 2000

which forced me to conclude Paglia isn't much more intellectually gifted than Aunt Clara on Bewitched:

Musings on then-candidate George Bush:

"As a biology-minded social analyst, I had one of my usually reliable "click" moments last week as a TV camera caught Bush trotting jauntily down the steps of an airplane and literally swaggering, hands dangling like a gunslinger, across the tarmac. The same primal principle of animal vitality that gave a still-raw Bill Clinton the juice to rout an aging, waffling, lackluster president in 1992 and then a burnt-out, snappish, half-mummified Senate majority leader in 1996 is starting to favor Bush.

Gore, meanwhile, for all his showy chest-puffing, is coming across as an effete, pretentious, mealy-mouthed candy man on the licorice umbilical from feminazi Big Mamas."


Paglia on candidate Al Gore --

"Gore, on the other hand, may be ethically undeserving of the highest office in the land. Until his guttersnipe primary fight with Bill Bradley (for whom I voted), I thought of Gore as a smart, competent, if unflashy public-affairs specialist. Since I've always liked his spunky wife Tipper, even during her campaign for music labeling, I gave Gore the benefit of the doubt and assumed he'd shine once he emerged from Bill Clinton's shadow. But week by week this year, as I watched Gore bob, weave, pander and lie, I came to detest him as an empty suit who, like Hollywood Hillary, has no deep convictions beyond a lust for personal power."

"There are so many squalid examples of media manipulation that I do wonder about the odd allegations that come in to this column over the transom. For instance, several letters this month questioned the authenticity of the well-known photograph of Gore that his official Web site claims was taken in Vietnam. They insist that his gear is nontropical and would be issued only at a training site on the American mainland. They also argue that Gore was not entitled by rank to wear the dress uniform he sports in his wedding photo. I would be very interested in clarification of these matters from readers with special knowledge of military technicalities.

"It was Gore's own bizarrely frantic behavior and gross fabrications on the stump that eventually repelled me and many other Democrats who bolted to Ralph Nader. The Democratic leadership has only itself to blame for Bush's election."


More sparkling intellectual insights following the SC selection of Bush --

"The tacky, phony signs waved along the Inauguration parade route by cynical Democratic operatives who in calling a duly elected president a "thief" demeaned a day that honors history and belongs to the nation."

"Bush is an unpretentious fellow with centrist instincts who may surprise people -- particularly if he gets his administration off to a terrific start by naming Colin Powell for secretary of state and Condoleezza Rice as national security advisor, who would be the most high-ranking African-Americans in history."

"On the other hand, criticisms of Bush's "light" work schedule are misconceived. A leader should have the long view. Chief executives who drown themselves in detail (like the wonkish Bill Clinton or Al Gore) lose perspective and make dumb, insular decisions. Bush's announced plan for regular family weekends at Camp David and his Texas ranch gives one much more confidence that this guy has his head on straight. Both nature and home rhythms restore the mind."


Kudos to her favorite rightwing media personalities --

"I view Matt Drudge's pioneering Web site as performance art, a surrealist collage and Warholian series of hour-by-hour Polaroids of modern culture. His startling solar-flares posting was literally hair-raising, reminding me of Ulysses' speech about "degree" in Shakespeare's "Troilus and Cressida"

"Rush Limbaugh is a principled conservative, master broadcaster and stinging social critic who has won his mammoth following through his own energy, individualism and wit. His daily radio show is the one reliable place ordinary citizens can turn to for a different perspective in the blizzard of propaganda and disinformation from the Northeastern media establishment. History will show that Limbaugh was a major force over the past decade in waking this country up from its p.c. coma."

"I feel genuinely sorry for those who are so blinded by narrow partisanship that they cannot appreciate Limbaugh's energy, intelligence and satiric skill. They live in a box with bags over their heads."


And lastly, this one is just too damned extra-special hilarious ---

"Considering how many thousands of journalists were credentialed by the Republican and Democratic conventions, the quality of American reportage was abysmal. The American media have turned into a schmoozing herd of sappy clones, rarely deviating from the cocktail-hour party line lest they compromise their future job prospects. In my opinion, top honors for political commentary this summer unquestionably go to Jonah Goldberg, online editor of the National Review. His deftly written pieces were always fresh, smart, independent and often scathingly funny."

The Salon archives are full of such gems and so much more.

[sakura]

135. Paglia.... ugh.

A broken clock shows the right time twice a day. Every now and then Paglia says something I can at least partially agree with. The problem is the route by which she reaches her conclusions. Her beliefs are quite different from those that most here cherish. Having said that, I do think she is quite intelligent. Wrong, but intelligent.

[JCMach1]

136. You are 100% Right Maddy

Paglia jumped the couch years ago...

[bluedawg12]

137. Choice bits from here writings re; gays, lesbians and women-

Quotations from Camille Paglia's landmark "Sexual Personae."

"If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts." - SP, p38

"The male orientation of classical Athens was inseparable from its genius. Athens became great not despite but because of its misogyny." - SP, p100

"Visionary idealism is a male art form. The lesbian aesthete does not exist. But if there were one, she would have learned from the perverse male mind." - SP, p117

"With the Hellenistic tilt towards women, prefigured by Euripides, the beautiful boy slides toward the feminine, a symptom of decadence." - SP, p123

"Oil painting and color, said Michelangelo, are for 'women and the lazy' . . . This is why Leonardo's sketches and private notebooks, with their Apollonian pen line, are so voluminous." - SP, p158

"Serial or sex murder, like fetishism, is a perversion of male intelligence. It is a criminal abstraction, masculine in its deranged egotism and orderliness. It is the asocial equivalent of philosophy, mathematics, and music. There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper." - SP, p247


"The Gothic tradition was begun by Ann Radcliffe, a rare example of a woman creating an artistic style" - SP, p265

"The thrill of terror is passive, masochistic, and implicitly feminine. It is imaginative submission to overwhelming superior force." (p267).

"Woman's flirtatious arts of self-concealment mean man's approach must take the form of rape." - SP, p276
..........


Extracts

from Camille Paglia's
VAMPS & TRAMPS

Campus speech codes, that folly of the navel-gazing left, have increased the appeal of the right. Ideas must confront ideas. When hurt feelings and bruised egos are more important than the unfettered life of the mind, the universities have committed suicide. (p51)


The prostitute has come to symbolize for me the ultimate liberated woman, who lives on the edge and whose sexuality belongs to no one. (p58)

Men, gay or straight, can get beauty and lewdness into one image. Women are forever softening, censoring, politicizing. (p65)

I have found few lesbians with whom I can discourse for more than five minutes without hitting some tiresome barrier of resentment or ideology. (p74)

I want to cry out to these young girls: Stop! Think! . . . For heaven's sake, don't fall down the rabbit hole of the lesbian scene. You will never escape, and your talent will wither on the vine. Your energy will be wasted and absorbed in repitition without progression. Women alone are Spenser's Bower of Bliss, enclosed, comfortable, and dangerous. (p82)


Lesbians, said a lesbian friend wearily to me, are "program heads": "They need the structure. They have all the answers." Hence lesbians' omnipresence in the social-welfare industry. Rejecting the father's competitive system, they substitute another that they imagine is based on female "caring" and "compassion" but is, in dismal effect, repressive, totalitarian, and hostile to art and dissent. The same friend memorably said to me long ago that lesbianism is caused by either "too much tit or not enough." (p85)

In the absence of opportunity for heroic physical action, as in the modern office world, women's goodwill is crucial for preserving the male ego, which requires, alas, daily maintenance. It is in the best interests of the human race, and of women themselves, for men to be strong. (p85)

Middle-class men, neutered by office life and daunted by feminist rhetoric, are shrinking. Lesbianism is increasing, since anxious, unmasculine men have little to offer. Women are simply more interesting to them. Male homosexuality is increasing, because masculinity is in crisis and because maternal consciousness, severed from the support network of the extended family, has become a psychotic system, forcing the young to struggle for life against clinging personal fantasy. (p90)

Feminism, for all its boasts, has not found a single major female painter or sculptor to add to the canon. It did revive the reputations of many minor women, like Frida Kahlo or Romaine Brooks. Mary Cassatt, Georgia O'Keeffe, and Helen Frankenthaler were already known and did not need rediscovery. Artemisia Gentileschi was simply a polished, competent painter in a Baroque style created by men. (p115)

I'm a bisexual lesbian who's also monastic, celibate, pervert, deviant, voyeur. (p245)

From Paglia's advice column:

Dear Camille:

Two buddies of mine who live thousands of miles from each other were unceremoniously dumped a couple of years ago by their girlfriends. Right after chucking their excess baggage, both girls adopted all the significant traits of their former boyfriends. One went from being a pampered trust-fund baby who read Woolf and subscribed to trendy political causes to being an ardent backpacker in love with Conrad. The other changed her major from environmental science to classical anthropology and philosophy and her music from Depeche Mode to Lime Spiders. You get the picture. Why would these women become the men they no longer love?

- Musing in Kankakee

Dear Musing:

I am stunned by this colorful evidence of the ancient principle of female vampirism, recorded everywhere in world mythology. Having sucked men dry, like marrow from a bone, woman calmly sails on to her next adventure. Sublime! (p402)