Webb's percieved "connection" to the Confederacy is NOT necessarily a bad thing...

[cliffordu]

It will be hammered on in the media. The perception among many of the ignoramus Fox viewers and borderline kneejerkers will be that Obama is recruiting from descendants of the Klan. (This will be a LOL point here at DU)

The fact that Webb is standing onstage with Obama says two things (three, actually)....

1. Obama really IS a post-racial candidate...That Webb's past (percieved) attitudes are not what the Obama presidency is concerned with now. It illustrates in concrete terms that we can come together NOW where we might not have been able to before.

2. That scotch/irish, low-information, redneck, good ol' boys needn't be threatened by Obama cause Webb - hunter, veteran, Good ol' boy and beer drinking white guy knows he's alright. Might quash the elitist tag more so than Biden....

I believe this counts for more than you might expect..

Both of these points further illustrate that Obama's not Muslim, he's not a Black Radical, he's not really part of that 'Racist Church.....'won't make white folks slaves...._____ fill in the blank ad nauseum....


And the third thing it says is that you don't need a flag pin when you have a Navy Cross recipient with you.

Webb is a real honest to God on the ground COMBAT hero, not an Admiral's kid and beer heiress's boy toy.


.

[FrenchieCat]

1. And Webb's son went to Iraq, just like McCain's......

Pretty good thus far!

[cliffordu]

4. Yep - I like him - and the idea of the two of them reaching

the biggest cross section of this country since Kennedy/Johnson.....

Only unlike Johnson, Webb is nearly as well read as Obama, and isn't a smoke filled back room deal maker - He's a man who, like Obama wants to serve.

They could be stellar.

[dkf]

2. Yep. I agree completely.

Times have changed and people have changed. We need to recognize that and look at how much we have progressed in this area.

If people want to gripe, I hope they don't point to things that happened in the 70's.

And when someone like Sam Nunn wants to revisit don't ask don't tell, then embrace it and welcome them.

[On the Road]

3. I Agree

Webb changes the dynamic and has the potential to cut deeply into certain parts of the Republican base. Who would McCain LEAST want to run against?

Webb is the one candidate I can think of to bring in the voters with confederate flags on their pickup trucks (in Howard Dean's words) who should really be voting Democratic. Not only from a demographic point of view: I believe he has the presence and the military credibility to look voters in the eye and make them uneasy about voting Republican. That is a prospect to strike fear into the GOP.

There's also the aspect of racial healing. Having an alliance between a high-profile black candidate (at the top of the ticket, no less) and a supposed Confederate sympathizer is very powerful. No policy statement can have the impact of two people working together who actually like each other (if indeed they do).

There has been a lot of change in the South that they rarely get credit for. It's about time to not only acknowledge that, but take political advantage of it.

[cliffordu]

5. YES! Precisely!

[SwampG8r]

12. i will in advance accept your comments on behalf of the people

of florida
truly the state of multiculturism

[SwampG8r]

14. im saying this with a smile

but the confederates were by and large democrats

[melody]

6. My great-grandfather was a grand dragon in the Klan

My grandparents left the south and moved to California, but I'm as redneck as redneck can be. I'm also a solid liberal Democrat (as they were, too). The majority of my family is voting for Obama.

I also wanted to make the point that Scots-Irish is an ethnicity, like French and Italian, so it should be capitalized and "redneck" is a racial slur. Also "good, ol' boy" is a good thing to be, not a bad thing. And not all of us are "low information" or racist.

[cliffordu]

7. I'm cut from that same cloth.

Odd that those labels don't mean anything to me.

My "people" on my mother's side go back in Appalachia to 1790. Coal miners. My grandparents left West Virginia after my Grandfather quit the coal mines to 'retire' full time in a paper mill out west here...

My Father's side goes back in Alabama to about the same time - 1810, through the settling of Texas west all the way to California before WWII....cattle tramps, chuck wagon cooks, a (supposed) Texas Ranger, the Chisolm trail, Portales, NM Tombstone....

No lectures needed.

[melody]

9. Not lecturing you, just making the point.

I understand you were writing from a good place but I know how much prejudice my grandparents received when they first moved here. There is a deep bias against "rednecks" -- they're as innocent a group of people as any other.

[cliffordu]

15. Where do you live? I live on the west coast and

everyone from my parent's generation moved here to get away from precisely those things - to forget their pasts - the huge migration west after WWII was all about that.

Growing up I never met anyone who's parents were actually born in the little town I lived in - it had sprung up around the 6 huge mills built after WWII....everyone had a clean slate.

I'm personally as much an Appalachian coal miner as Jodie Foster....

[melody]

17. Los Angeles

And my background is in cultural anthropology. I'm part Cherokee also, so there's a strong belief in embracing our ancestors.

Who I am as a person has nothing to do with my affection for my family. I certainly am not ashamed of the vast majority of them.

[RB TexLa]

8. In my house "scots-irish" is a slur as well. It's the same slur as redneck which of course comes

from orange not red. Orange scarfs, I'm sure you can figure that out.

[melody]

11. My grandparents preferred Scots-Irish

Scotch-Irish is also correct (for the people living in the Appalachians).

I prefer to call people what they wish to be called ... it's none of my business to tell them theirs.

BTW, the orange (or red) scarves story is just one theory about the origin of the term redneck. Some think it comes from our tendency toward fair skin (thus getting sunburned).

[SwampG8r]

13. yup

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Redneck isn't a racial slur

The origins of this term Redneck are Scottish and refer to supporters of the National Covenant and The Solemn League and Covenant, or "Covenanters", largely Lowland Presbyterians, many of whom would flee Scotland for Ulster (Northern Ireland) during persecutions by the British Crown. The Covenanters of 1638 and 1641 signed the documents that stated that Scotland desired the Presbyterian form of church government and would not accept the Church of England as its official state church.

Many Covenanters signed in their own blood and wore red pieces of cloth around their necks as distinctive insignia; hence the term "Red neck", (rednecks) which became slang for a Scottish dissenter*.

more: http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/rednecks/rednecks.html

[melody]

20. It is a racial slur now ... all racial slurs begin innocently

When people say "redneck" in this context, they're talking about backward, ignorant, racist people. The slur comes from using the term (which is the term for a group of people) in that context. "Negro" didn't begin as a bad term either. Now it wouldn't be a term used by most educated people in referring to African-Americans.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Jim Webb refers to himself as a redneck.

So do a lot of Southerners. I doubt they think it's a slur.

[melody]

43. I refer to mysellf as a redneck-- when he uses it, he doesn't mean a racist lowbrow

Redneck has a whole distinct meaning as a term for a group of people -- that's the whole point of them using
it as a racial slur. If it didn't exist with a different meaning, it wouldn't have become a slur. When my
friend Marcy calls herself a Jew, she means it in a positive sense. When my mother-in-law calls someone a
Jew and means they are miserly, the same word becomes a racial slur.

[SwampG8r]

10. jim webb?

hes like a 5th cousin of mine through marriage
never met him though

[cliffordu]

16. Can you get me into the Inauguration??

[SwampG8r]

21. i couldnt get webb chevrolet to cut me a deal on a truck

and my aunt was running it

[cliffordu]

22. Dayum.....Just like MY family....

:rofl:

[SwampG8r]

25. my dad said "thats why they stay rich son"

[cliffordu]

27. I accidentally got a union job in my twenties and my

grandparents on my mother's side acted like I hit the Lottery. I had NEVER seen them that happy about anything.

My grandfather was a union organizer after WWI in the mines....which could explain why they had to move west - apparently that was a very dangerous thing to do.

[anonymous171]

19. Spot on. This would actually help him, imo.

[woolldog]

23. In that case, why not just name Byrd VP?

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

24. Isn't he like 1,853 years old?

He IS a veteran of the Civil War.....so....

[woolldog]

26. he has a lot of experience.

Plus he used to be in the kkk, so he will help Obama with the racist vote.

[cliffordu]

28. Well, not since he repented.

[2rth2pwr]

29. If he picks Webb, the woman vote will be in play.

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/ixnay_on_the_ebbway.php

In 1979, in an infamous article in The Washingtonian magazine called "Women Can't Fight," Webb argued that women were biologically unsuited to combat and didn't belong in the military academies. He said that the mere presence of women was "poisoning" the environment for male cadets. He also

declared that no senior female in a leadership position at the academy won her rank by merit, thereby impugning the accomplishments of every female midshipman and throwing fuel on the smoldering resentments of a vocal minority of disgruntled midshipmen.

Webb's writings on women did a hell of a lot of damage. It gave invaluable ammunition to the enemies of women's presence in the military and helped stall and perhaps even roll back women's progress there. Kathleen Murray, a 1984 academy graduate who went on to become a commander in the Navy, said of Webb's screed: "This article was brandished repeatedly. quoted and used it as an excuse to mistreat us." Her observation is confirmed by this post, which contains devastating testimony by women in the military about the effect Webb's writings had. For instance, here is what Commander Jennifer Brooks, USN(retired) had to say:

I was 19 years old and in my second year at the Academy when the Webb article came out. I was devastated to be told by a war hero that the Academy should be shut down rather than accept me, and that my very presence was responsible for the degradation of the military. As a best selling author, James Webb knew the power of words, and to describe the Naval Academy as ‘a horny woman’s dream’ was inexcusable. My mother read that.

I joined the Navy to serve my country. It was unbelievably demoralizing to be painted as a pampered slut who was taking up classroom space and pre-destined to endanger the lives of the brave young men around her.

[woolldog]

30. 1979?

That was a long time ago. Nobody cares about that.

[cliffordu]

31. Yep, it was, and IIRC, he has since refuted and renounced and

disavowed saying it.

[2rth2pwr]

32. You may say, well, that was way back in the 80s and late 70s. He's changed since then, right?

You may say, well, that was way back in the 80s and late 70s. He's changed since then, right? But that is not exactly clear. At a 1991 convention of naval aviators called Tailhook, 83 women were reported to have been sexually harassed or assaulted by military personnel. From the beginning, Webb's concern for the victims was merely perfunctory. But he gave many speeches and wrote many articles vociferously defending the accused. In a 1992 article in the New York Times, he called the investigation of Tailhook a "witch hunt." In a 1997 article he wrote for the conservative Weekly Standard, he was highly critical of what he termed "ever-expanding sexual mixing" in the military and he referred to feminist efforts to improve the status of women in the military as merely "salving the egos of a group of never-satisfied social engineers."
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/ixnay_on_the_ebbway.php

And yes, once again he brought up Tailhook, and once again he showed himself more concerned with attacking feminists than with securing justice for the victims: "Events such as the 1991 Tailhook debacle have been seized upon and used by feminists to attack the military culture and bring about major concessions." Indeed, as late as the time this book was published (2004), Webb, according to the author, "persists in refusing to blame the Navy and Marine Corps officers who participated in the abuses of Tailhook, who failed to raise a hand to stop them and stonewalled the investigation that followed."..

To be fair, Webb, who is pro-choice, has kinda sorta apologized for his past writings and statements on women in the military. He termed the infamous Washingtonian article an "overreach." Um, that's putting it mildly.

[cliffordu]

33. Yep, he's less than perfect.

You could just copy ALL the crap talking points from this website:

http://www.baconsrebellion.com/Issues06/11-06/Bowden.php

and call it a day.

[2rth2pwr]

34. I thought providing facts and links would be a good idea.

Didn't mean to get you all riled up.

[cliffordu]

35. I'm not riled at all.....I like Webb cause he walks the talk.

And unlike a lot of politicians you know where he stands, and he can admit a mistake.

Next best for me is Wes Clark. His ties to the Clintons might be a hindrance, though.


And the reason the whole sexist argument really has no traction today:

Most men I know were complete Neanderthals in 1979.

And for that matter, so were most of the women, too

[lukasahero]

41. The poster just proved it didn't end in 1979

"Indeed, as late as the time this book was published (2004), Webb, according to the author, "persists in refusing to blame the Navy and Marine Corps officers who participated in the abuses of Tailhook, who failed to raise a hand to stop them and stonewalled the investigation that followed.".."

The OP suggests Webb will get us the "Bubba" vote. Given the primary we just went through, do we want to try and win over men who won't vote for us anyway with a VP nom and continue to alienate women who do want to vote (and work) with us? Do we really want to spend the next few months trying to explain Webb or promote Obama?

[gaspee]

37. Can't be having that

I don't trust Webb. He's about as conservative as they come. I'm sick of moving toward the middle - Obama is a centrist and add a conservative to that and we're dealing with center-right again.

I don't like Webb's attitude about women - no one changes *that* much.

Picking Webb as Veep will push women sitting on the fence into not voting or going with a third party.

[cliffordu]

46. Maybe you should look at post#44 - Webb is rated more liberal than

Obama. Which I find amusing in light of your comment...

[cliffordu]

49. Wow...

"Picking Webb as Veep will push women sitting on the fence into not voting or going with a third party."

I had no idea that many women were that shallow.

(I know they aren't, but your comment quoted above seems to indicate you think they are...)

[JCMach1]

38. I like Webb a lot- However, he was once a Republican

At the present, at least, I think he should continue to cut his teeth as Senator. He is very valuable for us there and critical in maintaining control of the chamber.

[jefferson_dem]

39. Hugh Hewitt (talk radio hater), FauxNews last night, said Webb on the ticket is his worst nightmare.

He went on about how he's known Webb for over 20 years and he's an "honest to goodness authentic American hero." Hewitt's back-handed insult was that Webb's hero status would diminish Obama so he won't pick him as a mate.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

40. I thought about that, too! Frankly I think Webb has more women problems

than with blacks.

[jazzjunkysue]

42. I think he's a good balance, but a very honorable man. I sense integrity

from him. Can't say I know alot about him but he's been outspoken against the war in spite of the fact that his son is there and he has a military background.

It might be a really smart move. I like him.

I think Biden's great on some things, but not always. But he doesn't grab the camera and misspeaks alot.

[Douglas Carpenter]

44. Comparing the Senate voting records of Sen. Obama, Sen. Webb and Sen. McCain

Sen. Webb has not been my first choice for the Vice Presidential nomination. However, it is clear from a wide variety of insider sources that he is near the top of the short list of those being considered.

Rasmussen Reports rates him as probably the potential candidate who would stategically add the most to the ticket:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_gerald_m_pomper/obama_s_vice_president

At first I was a bit skeptical of him. But after taking a closer look, I have to admit being somewhat impressed.

My most important reason from my point view is that his writings while teaching at the Naval War College in Monterey, California reveal that he is a foreign policy realist and pragmatist and thus not the sort to rush into ill advised military interventions. Equally important he shares with Sen. Obama the sense of importance with opening dialog with adversaries and making a sincere effort at diplomacy in resolving conflict.

But, just how liberal is he on other issues? I would have to say, more than I thought:


First, here is just one example: In 2007 The Sargent Shriver National Center on Poverty Law gave Senator Webb a grade of A+.

Here are some more along with a comparison with Sen. Obama’s and Sen. McCain’s record:

All figures are interest group ratings from 2007.:

The link for Sen. McCain's ratings on Project Vote Smart:

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=53270&type=category&category=45&go.x=10&go.y=12

The link for Sen. Obama's ratings on Project Vote Smart:

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=9490

The link for Sen. Webb’s ratings on Project Vote Smart:

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=60043

Abortion Issues

In 2007 NARAL Pro-Choice America gave Senator Obama a grade of 100.

2007 NARAL Pro-Choice America gave Senator Webb a grade of 100.

In 2007 NARAL Pro-Choice America gave Senator McCain a grade of 0.

_________________________________

Civil Rights and Human Rights Issues

2007 American Civil Liberties Union gave Senator Obama a grade of 80.

In 2007 American Civil Liberties Union gave Senator Webb a grade of 71.

2007 American Civil Liberties Union gave Senator McCain a grade of 50.
______________________________________________________________

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 85 percent in 2007

Senator Webb supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 85 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 15 percent in 2007.
______________________________________________________________________

Conservative Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 7 percent in 2007.

2007 Senator Webb supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 16
percent in 2007

Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 80 percent in 2007.
_______________________________________________________________________

Education Issues

In 2007 National Education Association gave Senator Obama a grade of A.

In 2007 National Education Association gave Senator Webb a grade of A.

In 2007 National Education Association gave Senator McCain a grade of F.
________________________________________________________________________

Environmental Issues

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to League of Conservation Voters's position, Senator Obama received a rating of 67.

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to League of Conservation Voters's position, Senator Webb received a rating of 87.

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to League of Conservation Voters's position, Senator McCain received a rating of 0.
______________________________________________________________

Family and Children Issues

In 2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Children's Defense Fund's position, Senator Obama received a rating of 60.

In 2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Children's Defense Fund's position, Senator Webb received a rating of 90.

In 2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Children's Defense Fund's position, Senator McCain received a rating of 10.
________________________________________________________
(The Family Research Council is an extremely right-wing organization found and lead by Dr. Richard Dobson)

In 2007 Family Research Council gave Senator Obama a grade of 0.

In 2007 Family Research Council gave Senator Webb a grade of 0.

In 2007 Family Research Council gave Senator McCain a grade of 42.
_______________________________________________________________

Foreign Aid and Policy Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Council for a Livable World 81 percent in 2007

Senator Webb supported the interests of the Council for a Livable World 72 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Council for a Livable World 0 percent in 2007.

______________________________________________________________________.

Health Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Academy of Family Physicians 100 percent in 2007.

Senator Webb supported the interests of the American Academy of Family Physicians 100 percent in 2007..

Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Academy of Family Physicians 0 percent in 2007
_____________________________________________________________________

Labor

Senator Obama supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2007.

Senator Webb supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 0 percent in 2007.
______________________________________________________________________

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 75 percent in 2007.

Senator Webb supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 75 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 8 percent in 2007.
________________________________________________________________________

Liberal

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 75 percent in 2007

Senator Webb supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 85 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 10 percent in 2007.

[cliffordu]

45. I note with some glee that he is rated more liberal than Obama...

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. CORRECT! Sen. Webb's over all voting record is slightly to the left of Sen. Obama's

although to be fair it probably averages out to approximately the same

[williesgirl]

48. Wow! Thanks for this research. He's my Senator. I worked for, donated to and voted for him and

never saw all this in one place before. rec'd

[S_E_Fudd]

50. I agree on Webb...but I don't think trashing McCain's military experience...

Is merited. Any man who spends 5 years in s POW camp being tortured is a hero in my book...

Let's not go there...it was unwarranted when they went after Kerry's service, and it will be just as unwarranted to go after McCain's...

There is enough to beat him on without getting into that muck...I'm sure Obama would agree!

[cliffordu]

51. Hmm....Where, in my post or anywhere in this universe,

do you see ME trash McCain's military service?

I've defended him on this very issue multiple times.

Doesn't change the fact he never would have qualified to go to Annapolis if his Daddy hadn't been an Admiral.

The Hanoi Hilton is off limits as far as I'm concerned.

The Beer Heiress stuff, is not, however.

[S_E_Fudd]

52. Sorry if I misinterpreted you...

But I thought this line "..not an Admiral's kid and beer heiress's boy toy" was denigration of McCain...

[cliffordu]

53. Well....That's exactly what he is. I said nothing negative about

his POW experience. Nor will I.

[S_E_Fudd]

54. Well not to nitpick...

But in context...

"Webb is a real honest to God on the ground COMBAT hero, not an Admiral's kid and beer heiress's boy toy."

Webb is a hero...the word "not" indicates what comes next is the opposite...meaning "not" a hero...in reference to McCain's father it seems like a trivialization of his military service...

As though his service can be boiled down to that essential fact...

If applied to Kerry...republicans might have said

John McCain was tortured for his country and is a real honest to God on the ground COMBAT hero, not a rich ivy league kid from New England driving boats on a river." A true statement but not accuratelty descriptive of Kerry's service...


But you have made clear you don't agree with the trivialization of McCain's service...

[cliffordu]

55. McCain never would have gone to Annapolis OR to jet fighter school

if his daddy hadn't been an Admiral.

What happened in Hanoi and McCain's military service before that are two entirely different things.

I believe the man IS a hero for what he did in captivity. Before or since? Not so much.

And he is STILL an Admiral's kid and a beer heiress' boy toy.

You are right about the lousy sentence structure, though.