Dean Supporters Threaten To Pull The Party Apart

[slinkerwink]

Will Deaniacs Pull a Nader On The Democratic Party?

I remembered how bad the primary wars were in 2004. I was a Dean supporter back then, and GD:Primaries was a bloody battleground with angry keyboarders typing fiery posts back and forth. The Clarkies against the Deaniacs. The Kerry Supporters against the Deaniacs. The Edward Supporters against the Deaniacs. Back then, it seemed like the whole party was ganging up on us. After Howard Dean lost, and that scream in Iowa was heard around the world, I was heart-broken. I called myself a Dean Democrat. I threatened to pull the party apart. And so did other Dean supporters back then.

Feb. 4, 2004 | On Jan. 30, three days after Howard Dean came in a disappointing second in the New Hampshire Democratic primary, posters on the late-night open thread on the Dean for America blog excoriated John Kerry. "At first, I was in the ABB category, but I refuse to be cowtowed by the corporate-controlled media and vote for a gutless democrat who rolled over and played dead for George Bush or one who helped draft the Patriot Act," wrote Sydney Platt, a 42-year-old from Houston. Another poster castigated her, but many more supported her sentiment. One wrote, "I have decided that perhaps America must lose everything to value something. That may be what it takes to actually get our country back if Dean goes down."

If this sounds familiar, it's because some of the rhetoric coming out of the most disillusioned quarters of the Dean camp recalls that of the Ralph Nader campaign. Among parts of the Dean movement these days, there's much railing at the corporate-dominated Democratic Party, plenty talk of rejecting the "lesser of two evils" approach to politics and abundant slandering of front-runner John Kerry as "Bush-lite." So as it grows increasingly likely that Dean won't be the Democratic nominee in 2004 -- and that Kerry will be -- some are wondering, and worrying, whether all the devoted legions of activists that Dean brought into the Democratic fold will stay in the party, spoil the race or just stay home. If Dean goes down, will one of the greatest grass-roots movements in Democratic history go with him -- a rerun of the Nader fiasco four years ago? Or will Dean supporters decide that beating Bush is more important than remaining true to their man and their principles and support the Democratic nominee, whoever he is?

"It looks like the Democratic Party, they're just bullying us around by putting Kerry out there," says Platt, a Dean volunteer who says she's never been involved in politics before this campaign. "The press is courting him. They think they're going to win and I'm not going to let that happen. Kerry voted to let Bush have carte blanche because he was too weak to stand up to him. There's no reason to support the man, after all the effort we put out ..."

But isn't four more years of Bush reason enough to support any Democrat? "Maybe in four years the Democratic Party will learn something,"says Platt. "Maybe it takes another four years for it to hit rock bottom before they will wake up and smell the coffee." Platt is echoed by Nancy Fulton, a 39-year-old mother of three from Santa Monica, Calif., who says that rather than vote for Kerry, "I might be happier impeaching Bush if he took a second term."

I was taken aback at how similar some Hillary supporters' comments sound to those in the article, written from four years ago. This goes to show that there always have been angry supporters of a losing candidate. I remember how MAD we were at Kerry for taking Iowa and New Hampshire away from us. It's funny how time has dulled our recall of that 2004 primary season. I remember loathing Kerry with an undying passion. Now I like him. It's funny that way.

Feel free to recommend this thread if you'd like for some perspective.

[Levgreee]

1. were Democrats of power egging them on too?

[slinkerwink]

2. yes. the Kerry supporters were awful in how they treated us.

They called us cultists, and even used the kool-aid reference.

[Maddy McCall]

21. And a lot of those people are still here. They never left.

Like you did.

But you were no angel yourself in 2004. I remember well...hurtful things were said by Dean supporters as much as by Kerry supporters--possibly more so.

[slinkerwink]

24. yeah, hurtful things were said on both sides.

[Maddy McCall]

3. First of all, 2004 was nowhere near as ugly as this year has been.

Second of all, Dean got out of the race very early, after it became very apparent that he hadn't a snowball's chance. How many states did he win, exactly?

Third, why rehash this year's primary season? Your thread really isn't helpful to Hillary supporters.

[slinkerwink]

5. I'm just pointing out the similarity in the comments of the Dean supporters and the

remaining Clinton supporters. This sort of rhetoric is nothing new. Howard Dean actually had to work over the next five months of the primary season until the convention in August to win us over to Kerry's side. Dean's said so himself.

[Maddy McCall]

8. No. You're making a false comparison, and saying that those silly Hillary supporters...

should just get over it.

This kind of thread renews the primary debates, and that's unfortunate that you felt the need to do that.

[slinkerwink]

9. no, I never said that.

[mcctatas]

13. That's not what I got out of it at all....

If anything, I think it shows that maybe we are too tough on Hillary supporters. Nowhere did it say they should "just get over it", as a matter of fact, the OP states "I remember how MAD we were at Kerry for taking Iowa and New Hampshire away from us. It's funny how time has dulled our recall of that 2004 primary season. I remember loathing Kerry with an undying passion." Which is, if anything, identifying with Hillary supporters feelings. If anyone is renewing primary debates, it is not the OP...

[slinkerwink]

14. thank you.

[Maddy McCall]

20. Again, I think that it's a form of projecting the sentiments that Obama supporters...

feel about Obama onto Hillary supporters. As I recall, a great many more Obama supporters at DU said that they'd never vote for Clinton than did Clinton supporters about Obama.

And it DOES renew angst from the primary season. Mostly because there have been very few (one or two) Hillary supporters who claim they won't support Obama.

The two seasons (2004 vs. 2008) were apples-n-oranges different.

[mcctatas]

23. Respectfully disagree...

"ain't democracy grand"?

:hi:

[JNelson6563]

39. I disagree

I think slinkerwink was merely demonstrating that disappointed supporters of the losing candidate are nothing new. I was in the ranks of heartbroken Dean supporters, lived through those primaries anyway and then went on to work full time + hours throughout the season to get Dems (even Kerry) elected.

It doesn't matter about the details and differences of the campaign. A heartbroken supporter is just that no matter the circumstances. Just because Dean dropped out of the race earlier than what happened this season, doesn't mean there weren't legions of us who worked our hearts out for many months.

If anything I think the OP shows many of us have "been there" on the primary broken heart front and can relate but, in the end, we tend to get on board with the Dem ticket because we still want to contribute to positive change.

I think your taken offense where none was intended. As a former political heartbreak sufferer, I can understand how you feel.

Julie

[blondeatlast]

44. Agreed. I've NEVER originally supported a candidate

that made all the way to the convention.

After a couple of decades, you learn that the primary process is an exercise in disppointment and making it work for a non-ideal but better than the opponent candidate.

Udall, Babbitt, Bradley, Tsongas--those are just the ones I can remember!

[BlooInBloo]

43. That might - MIGHT - be true, but only for the spurious reason that there's so many more Obama....

supporters here than Clinton supporters.

Percentage-wise, that's just dead wrong, and not even close to true.

[JoFerret]

35. OP may have been trying to do the opposite

Silly self righteous smug folk playing poutrage at those still experiencing deep and painful loss are silly, self-righteous and smug. The past indicates there is a potential outcome of both starting to focus forward. Change, like compost, happens.

[napi21]

15. I mentioned this very thing this evening to a friend of mine. How

hurt, upset, and angry I was when I felt how horribly the media had treated Howard! I begrudgingly voted for Kerry, but I STILL think Howard would have made the better President, and noe hell of a lot better thaan the idiot we have! I really do understand how the strong Hillary supporters feel, but I also believe they will vote for Obama in Nov, same as I voted for Kerry.

[Maddy McCall]

18. How many Hillary supporters at DU have said that they won't vote for Obama?

One? Two?

I don't know a single Democrat, man or woman, who's refusing to vote for Obama. And, honestly, I'm not "hurt" that Hillary didn't win. A little disappointed, but not "hurt" or "angry." I didn't invest my total being into my candidate...and I think that a lot of Obama supporters are projecting when they try to paint Hillary supporters in this light.

Threads like this cast Hillary supporters as tempermental turncoats, and I'm rather sick of it. We had way too many of these threads during primary season, and honestly, there's no reason for them now.

[slinkerwink]

19. I'm not talking about all Hillary supporters, just the few remaining Hillary supporters

that are acting like the Dean supporters in 2004. Did you read the rest of the article?

[Maddy McCall]

22. You are talking about Hillary supporters at DU. Thus, you're rehashing primary season...

which is a reckless thing to do, while many of them are making the transition to supporting Obama.

[dionysus]

42. i was asked for proof once and found 6 within minutes... don't try to rewrite history...

[SeaLyons]

50. Thanks Maddy...

you're the BEST.

[lligrd]

32. Apparently, Kerry Didn't Stand A Snowball's Chance In Hell

either and I did vote for him after you threw Dean under the bus. Thank God you failed in your mission this time.

[The Magistrate]

4. A Helpful History Lesson, Ma'am

Such 'defections' played no role in the eventual vote in the general election in '04: they will play no role in the vote this year either.

The primary fighting is over: we will be a fist clenched tight in the fall.

[slinkerwink]

6. exactly.

[The Magistrate]

10. It Was Rum Fun, Though, Ma'am,, While It Lasted

If recollection serves, we crossed words a time or two in those days....

[slinkerwink]

12. yes, we did. And they were rather cross words, heh.

[The Magistrate]

17. True Enough, Ma'am, But Obviously There Were No Lasting Scars....

And you must remember my earlier haunt was Israel v. Palestine, our own little Thunderdome, and my drift into the primary wars somewhat accidental. My remaining owed to their providing an even harsher fight than the 'sand trap' downstairs....

"God save me, but I love it so!"

[highplainsdem]

7. I agree (in part) with both Maddy and The Magistrate.

It is an interesting history lesson.

But Maddy's right and this year was a bit rougher, both for the length of the primary race and for the sexism Clinton and many of her supporters were subjected to.

Still, it's important to move on, and win in November.

The look back at 2004 is interesting. Thanks for posting that, slinkerwink.

[slinkerwink]

11. the length of the primary race certainly made it unique, but the rhetoric sounds very similar

from supporters of candidates that didn't get the nomination. My point is that it took me nearly a month to grieve for Howard Dean. And nearly five months until the Convention in August to lift a finger to help Kerry.

[The Magistrate]

16. There Were Foul Blows On Both Sides, Sir

It would not be seemly for me to allude to specific instances or name names, but having had some of the policing responsibility I cannot really say either side behaved worse than the other here.

[Fenris]

25. It seems to me, Sir,

that a good description of GD: P over the past 6 months or so would be of two cars traveling down the road at the same speed, approaching each other from opposing directions, and then suddenly swerving to make themselves crash head on for no other reason than they thought the other was in their lane.

[The Magistrate]

26. Do Not Omit, Sir, Then Backing Up And Flooring It Again, And Again, And Again....

It seems to me that one of the leading reasons for the heat was the fact that there really was very little difference between the two leading candidates in terms of issues and substance. Small differences must be subjected to exaggeration and treated with hyperbole to sustain passion in a long tussle, otherwise people come to that moment of looking each other square in the eye and saying "What are we doing this for?" which is so fatal to the combative spirit....

[Fenris]

28. It so much more fun to fight over non-substantive things!

As disliked as the so-called Mainstream Media is on here, I couldn't help but notice a disproportionate number of flamewars were generated from gossipy, "gotcha" stories about pastors, supposed assassination fantasies, Bosnian field trips, Geraldine Ferraro, Mrs. Obama's implied lack of patriotism, plagiarism, vaguely Arab clothing, and an endless number of racism/sexism allegations that were perpetuated and obsessed over by...the Mainstream Media. We certainly are well-conditioned, Sir.

[merwin]

30. Just thought I'd say hi to you! Haven't crossed paths with you since I was a mod a couple years ago.

Love reading your posts. Very eloquent and (almost) always right on point.

I do agree with the backing up and flooring it again... however, I would like to add swerving to hit pedestrians every once in a while. What is it again? One point for a dog, two points for a human?

:sarcasm:

[The Magistrate]

31. Dogs Are Harder To Hit, Sir, And So In My View Should Count More

Thank you for the kind words, my friend! It was a pleasure working with you.

[mcctatas]

27. ...

:rofl:

Witty mod on mod banter? I have died and gone to DU heaven;)

[blondeatlast]

40. I broke into a huge grin at that!

I even sent the URL to JeffR; this may be the best GD/P thread ever!

[anonymous171]

29. Love the analogy. Spot on. nt

[lojasmo]

33. The quote from the first paragraph is interesting.

Because that's exactly what happened, though I'm certain damn near every dean supporter got out for Kerry in the end.

I knew damn well Kerry would lose. That's part of the reason the American people rejected the establishment, IWR, DLC candidate this time. Thank god.

Oh, and thanks to Gov. Dean, too, for developing the fifty state plan.

[slinkerwink]

34. I thought Kerry would lose too. However, as it got closer to November, I thought he would win, but

he didn't.

[ProSense]

45. "I knew damn well Kerry would lose." I wasn't on DU at the time, but

comments like this, with all the shit the Republicans pulled in Ohio and elsewhere, are unfortunate.

We'll probably never know the extent of what they did, but it is what it is. This is 2008, and Obama has a better than good shot of winning.

To win the GE, Obama needs Kerry states plus these four states---IA, NM, NV, CO---or OH (Updated)

[lojasmo]

46. Obama's going to win.

Certainly, in Minnesota. I'll work my butt off to make sure it happens.

I GOTV the vote for Kerry, and voted for him myself (though it made me sick to do so)

[ProSense]

47. "though it made me sick to do so"

I'm sure that Bush's presidency made a lot of people feel that way too, even some who voted for him.

Yes, Obama will win.

[Breeze54]

36. Dean's pulling it together, imho and to the left! ~~ Happy Days!!

Happy Days!! :woohoo: :woohoo:

[Peacetrain]

37. May I add a little seasoning from someone who was not posting

here four years ago..but I was reading the posts.. and the thing that strikes me from this op and hopefully will be clear to all of Hillarys supporters is not that Dean lost.. but look how important he became!!!.. think about it.. who shaped the party this year with the 50 state strategy.. when one door closes .. many others can open up.. thought for the day from the great Iowa swamplands :hi:

[blondeatlast]

41. EXACTLY. Dean definitely didn't lose, the Democratic Party gained.

And after such a down-in-the-dirt, no-holds-barred campaign, I have a feeling Hillary Clinton will somehow gain much as well.

I was here then and have the scars to prove it. I damn near gave up on the place, there was precious little rational debate near the end. But once those bent on disrupting at any cost shook out, just as they will this time (if they aren't shown the door first) it became an incredible place for a die-hard wonk to be.


It's going to be a bumpy--but hopefully fun and fruitful--ride!

[Peacetrain]

48. bumpy rides can be fun sometimes too

Guess it is all how we look at it.. thinking of a roller coaster..but I think alot of the passion that is going on now..well ebb in a few months..

[blondeatlast]

38. "Memories... light the corners of my mind..." I'm grinning from ear-to-ear reading this.

The venom was spit from both sides, I have to say, just as in this year, and party loyalists (like me) found themselves off to the sides but being smacked with the spew nonetheless.

Those of us determined to get the infection out of DC can take a lesson from this. We're still here and we're stronger and even more determined for it.

K&R for a great reminder--and The Magistrate's and Fenris comments as well. :toast:

[DianeK]

49. this needs to be locked...

time to pull together and focus on General Election