I feel bad for him and his family, but if I hear what a fair and

[chieftain]

honest journalist he was one more time, I will scream. He allowed himself to be a stealth shill for the Republican Party and what really always made me angriest about Russert was that he came from Democratic roots. I can almost forgive little rich boys like Tucker Carlson. Their ignorance of how most Americans live paycheck to paycheck allows them to be remarkably callous in their disregard for folks who were not as lucky as they. Russert had to know, but maybe he supressed, the harm that Republical policies work on the great majority of Americans.But he was willing to be complicit in the RW's war on the New Deal and that I refuse to overlook.

[Joe the Revelator]

1. and Republicans accuse him of being a shill for Democrats

You can't win in the media, and its never as bad as you think it is from your side.

[tabasco]

97. If one person is telling a lie, and another is telling the truth,

it does not mean the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

There are republicans who screech that anything left of Der Sturm is a commie publication.

It is known that Russert was a mouthpiece for Cheney's propaganda. That makes him a cowardly piece of shit.

[goldcanyonaz]

2. His body is not even cold yet, is a 24 hour grace period to much to ask?

[cali]

3. of course it is.

the vultures must feast.

[The Doctor.]

59. Then you didn't read the OP apparently.

[spoony]

75. And we mustn't ask them to take their carrion cold

[scrappydo]

5. agreed.....

The man has died ... he was very, very close to his own father (still alive) and his son. How people can go on the attack at a time like this is beyond me!!! :puke:

[The Doctor.]

30. How? The "Attack", as you call it is a response to people pretending Russert was something he wasn't

People are calling him a 'fair' journalist, it is not attacking him to point out that he was not so fair.

There's nothing 'wrong' or 'rude' about that. What is wrong is saying one is glad he's dead or otherwise 'dancing on his grave'.

Distinctions like these seem to be lost on those who thrive on outrage.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

70. will we ever find out exactly what his role was in the outing of Valarie Plame now?

[kath]

78. again the level of critical thinking is very low. So many seem utterly incapable of making such

distinctions.

[chieftain]

93. Doc, I want you to know how much I appreciate your replies to

this thread.

[LaurenG]

15. I totally agree with this. Such horrible manners are hard to deal with.

:cry:

[The Doctor.]

44. What is wrong with the OP?

If you're not one of the people pretending TR was 'Fair and Balanced', then you aren't the reason for it.

In case it went over your head; the OP isn't an unwarranted character attack, it's a response to people adding delusion to their mourning.

[LaurenG]

48. Well if you don't understand then I won't explain it.

And I won't argue about what is over whose head with you either. Whatever.

[The Doctor.]

56. Generally, if someone can't explain something, it's because they haven't a grasp for it.

What about this;

"In case it went over your head; the OP isn't an unwarranted character attack, it's a response to people adding delusion to their mourning."

... do you not grasp?

[LaurenG]

81. What would you say to someone you thought was grossly insensitive?

and at this point I am not talking about the OP.

Since I generally agree and appreciate your posts I'm just going to ignore this little interaction.

[The Doctor.]

96. What about anything I have said here is "insensitive"?

If you consider my mere observations in the face of delusional worship to be a sign of 'insensitivity', if you are trying to tell me that we should let people tell themselves and everyone else that the deceased was something he was not merely by virtue of his passing lest we be considered 'insensitive', then it is apparent that your outrage threshold is far too low.


Just answer this question, and you'll get to the bottom of it;

"Do you consider it 'insensitive' to disagree with false characterizations of the deceased on an internet message board?"

If so, the problem here is yours, not mine.

[Raine]

18. Some people just can't help but crap

on other's pain and loss.

[The Doctor.]

38. If, in your 'pain and loss', you venture to make false claims about the character of the deceased...

don't call it 'crapping' on the 'pain and loss' when someone corrects you.

His death is tragic and he was indeed a very good journalist for a very long time, but it is no excuse to indulge in the recreation of his character.

Live and mourn in the real world, and no one will have reason to point out that you are fantasizing.

[Raine]

47. NOT my pain and loss

I didn't know him but other people do feel bad.

[The Doctor.]

53. Right, so the OP isn't about you, nor is it about 'attacking' Russert...

It's a response to people who believe that someone's death canonizes them.

Don't mourn someone by pretending they were something they were not. In Russert's case, there are plenty of qualities and achievements to celebrate without having to make shit up.

That's the point. Is it wrong?

[PoliticalAmazon]

20. There is nothing wrong with being honest about his character.....

and all of this fawning crap about what a good journalist he was is not only a lie, it his hypocritcal.

[TahitiNut]

57. Keep looking for that "higher ground" ...

... since it's where the sewers can be dug deeper. :eyes:

[Eric J in MN]

63. If someone waited 24 hours, then...

...it may be the day of the funeral, and arguably rude to criticize him then for that reason.

Or it may still be before the funeral, and arguably rude to criticize him then for that reason.

I say: let critics of Tim Russert express themselves now, while the subject is what we're discussing.

[treestar]

100. When public figures die, their careers are summarized

It's part of being a public figure.

One doesn't have to suddenly agree with everything they did.

[scheming daemons]

4. You're wrong... he was tough, but FAIR....

[Shakespeare]

6. Yup. n/t

[Clear Blue Sky]

8. I agree. He was fair and a good interviewer. RIP...

[springhill]

101. Oh brother................

Did you really watch his interviews? I mean, you never noticed the difference between his interviews with republicans and democrats? If you didn't, well then, sheesh, I don't know what to say.

[karynnj]

9. I agree - he was tough on anybody

and toughest on those who lied or really did say different things to different people.

I do wish he would have spoken out when Rove/Libby spoke to him on Valerie Plame before the election in 2004 - but that is asking for something extraordinary. I liked watching Kerry on because Russert was one of the few that allowed him and others to speak in depth and the segments were long enough to accommodate it. (Matthews tried to copy - but he often didn't get that interrupting every sentence does get any substance out - it is just annoying.

[PoliticalAmazon]

22. Disagree. He routinely pitched softball to GOP, hardball to Dems...

and, on Monday, you could often go back to what he asked over the weekend, observe the RWer talking points on Monday, and it was pretty clear Russert had been collaborating with the GOP, setting them up to deliver their talking-points on Monday.

[Shakespeare]

25. Collaborating with the GOP?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[PoliticalAmazon]

29. This was especially apparent during the Clinton investigations....

If you didn't notice it, the way he set up the GOP to launch their talking-points on Monday, then we observe things differently.

[kath]

80. yup. Do some research.

the evidence is there.

[Raineyb]

87. Indeed

Ask Arianna Huffington, according to her, she had interviews canceled on MSNBC including one with Olberman because Russert was miffed at her characterization of him in her book.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/is-tim-russert-blackballing-arianna-at-nbc-during-her-book-tour

I got the link from a book review on Firedoglake
http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/03/arianna-huffingtons-right-is-wrong

My inclination is to believe her.

Regards

[Exilednight]

39. No he wasn't, He was a closer Republican. Don't get me wrong .....

I'm sorry to see him pass - him and Buckley were two of only a handful of conservatives with a brain between their shoulders - but he was not fair. He played 'gotcha' politics with Democrats, and softballed Republicans.

Read this:

"At one point in the evening, Gore explains, Russert approached the candidates. As Gore was closest to him, Russert respectfully shook his hand and then moved on to Bush. Thinking that Gore had turned away, Russert shook Bush’s hand and, mischievously, turned over his jacket lapel to reveal a Bush campaign pin hidden under the fold. "

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/31

[Forkboy]

7. He seemed obsessed with the blue dress and which way Clinton's cock leaned.

I'm not happy he died, but I'm not jumping on the praise train either. I do feel bad for his family and friends.

And anyone offended by this can make fun of me when I die. I promise not to mind. :shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

13. who's obsessed with cocks? I'm quite sure

I hadn't heard any mention of Bill and Monica from Tim in a very very long time. Now that he's dead, that's what your over-riding thought is??????

It isn't the dead that are harmed by the stupid comments that are made in their wake- it is the people who listen and spread negative, vengeful words wich only divide us from each other farther-

If I were to outlive you Forkboy- I'll defend those who use your death to vent their personal peeves.

peace~

[Forkboy]

33. No, it's not my over riding thought. And yet, he was.

:shrug:

[OzarkDem]

49. Those who keep us divided

are not Democrats, but Republicans and the members of the news media who seek to keep driving a wedge wherever they can. They invest many billions of dollars in that effort.

Being honest about the sorry state of the news media today isn't wrong and assuming if we're nice enough to those in power they will join hands and befriend is is naive, to say the least.

A lot of people are facing financial hardships today because of these people, their vision of America and their policies. No one can blame them for being frank.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. "these people"- includes YOU and ME and every single

fucking human being who sees another person who is suffering, in need, homeless, sick, etc, and points the finger at "someone" or something other than themself to avert their own impotence or lack of REAL compassion and empathy.

We need to stop blaming other people for why this world is in such a fucked up mess, and put our lives where our mouths are.

excuse me for being "frank"-

politics is a scapegoat.

peace~

[OzarkDem]

58. I take a less random approach

I have compassion for Russert and his family, but there's no good to come from glorifying him.

I prefer to work with people who hold the same values and have a commitment to improving the lives of those less fortunate.

Some people are beyond redemption and have to make their own decisions about compassion, fairness and empathy. There's no need for me to use valuable time and energy trying to convert them.

[Bluerthanblue]

62. no, you take the comfortable approach.

It's easy to be kind, spend time, energy and effort on people you see a glimmer of "potential" in.

Chosing to look for the common connections we have to each other (that includes EVERY PERSON) isn't very comfortable, popular, or "politically correct"- but that doesn't change the fact that it is right.

We are all more alike than any of us want to admit or understand. We'll all come to that realization someday. Of that you can be sure.

peace~

[OzarkDem]

64. I don't wast my time on destructive people

who work tirelessly to advance an agenda that is harmful to others. I do pray for them, though.

[Bluerthanblue]

67. that is your choice-

but just keep in mind, that those people are the ones who need your perspective and compassion the most.

peace~

[Guava Jelly]

27. Thank you

It better be awhile before we make fun of you.
It would seriously bum out a friend of ours. I'd be bummed too.
And I agree.

[Forkboy]

35. Dude, when I go...scrape my lungs, smoke it up and party on!

:D

[Guava Jelly]

40. Same here.

On that note
It's friday!

[Forkboy]

45. I've had that same look on my face.

:rofl:

[PoliticalAmazon]

31. ITA. I would rather people be honest when I die than to lie about who I was. n/t

[Forkboy]

36. There you go.

:thumbsup:

And that 'truth' may vary from person to person. Some people think I'm cool shit, some think I'm an asshole, and they both should feel free to express that without worry of whether they'll be scolded or praised.

[The Doctor.]

41. Well... I think

you're cool shit and an asshole.

Birds of a feather and whatnot. :evilgrin:

[Forkboy]

43. LOL...I'm a cool shit asshole!

:rofl:

[The Doctor.]

51. No... it's "Shit-cool asshole"

[Forkboy]

52. That was before the burritos.

:P

That emoticon you used would have made a perfect yearbook pic of me. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

10. are you not a human being above and beyond your political bent?

Personally, I respected and ...liked... Tim. But even if I didn't, your post is "remarkably callous" in your disregard for allowing people to feel and express sorrow and shock at the sudden loss of a well known, respected and loved human being.

If you don't want to hear people speaking, turn off your media connection. Or scream away- maybe you're just too uncomfortable feeling anything but anger, people grieve in different ways.

peace~

[Warren Stupidity]

17. Sorry but when the expressions of sorrow are mixed in with

what a great and fair and balanced talking head he was, I too have to respond like the OP, no he wasn't. He like almost the entire MSM, threw his lot in with the neocon/neolib counter-reformation of the last 35 years or so. Express all the grief and sorrow you want, but spare me the glorious obituary.

[Breeze54]

83. Word!!!

:P

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Bluerthanblue]

98. I usually

agree with much of what you say Warren. I've noticed in my half century on earth, and living through the burying of literally dozens of people- many family, too many friends, and lots of others- that when someone dies, people often respond in extreem ways.
Remember the shrines for Princess Di? or all the hype about Anna Nichole?

I've heard it said about many soldiers who have died lately that "they were America's best.

Can a case be made against most of the things said by those who are 'left behind' about the dead? I'd be willing to bet in almost EVERY incident it wouldn't be hard to do just that.

The point I was trying to make in my initial reply was that, when you come right down to it, we human beings, are all flawed, imperfect, beautiful, terrible creatures. And the sudden, untimely death of a person is SAD.

Just as MLK pointed out that if we don't care about injustice done to strangers, we really don't care about injustice period.
I couldn't control Tim Russert, I can't control others response to his death- I can only (potentially) control my own response, and that response is to show compassion for a fellow traveller on this earth, who has left us unexpectedly-

but hell- I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, and not ashamed to admit it.

peace~

[PoliticalAmazon]

Deleted dup. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

37. the qualities that a person has, vary according to the individual

doing the judging.

If your evaluation of Tim Russert is different than someone who is speaking of him in very positive terms, that doesn't make either of you "right"-

Bitching about others grief (ie) "I'm gonna SCREAM" is pretty childish, and uncaring. IMO

I've lost so many people in my life. Ya know, when you come right down to facing the corpse of someone who was living, breathing and talking just a few hours ago, it makes politics, class, race, age, and every single fucking other 'quality' pretty unimportant.

I guess I forget that others haven't experienced this terrible lesson.

may they never need to.
peace~

[PoliticalAmazon]

24. Bullshit. You can mourn the passing of someone without making them into the Baby Jesus....

There is nothing wrong with saying, "He will be missed, I have compassion for his family, co-workers and loved ones, and I disagree with the pity-inaccurate statements, lauding him for qualities he did not have."

[The Doctor.]

42. Indeed.

Don't mourn someone by pretending they were something they were not. In Russert's case, there are plenty of qualities and achievements to celebrate without having to make shit up.

[baldguy]

11. He allowed himself to be dragged along with the crowd - but he wasn't alone in that.

Remember that the overwhelming RW bias of the media was bought & paid for many years ago by some very powerful & influential people. Russert could have stuck to his journalistic ideals - and been a 2nd string TV stand up guy in a 3rd rate market. Or he could have hosted a premier news show on a major network.

Did he sell out? Yes. Should he be condemned for it? Especially since dozens of others in his position did the same?

Imagine Tony Snow hosting Meet The Press.

[zulchzulu]

12. Check this out...

http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/tags/tim_russert

Again, I wish Tim Russert the best and complete condolences to his family and friends, but there is a trail...

[Raine]

14. The death of public figures always brings out

the callousness in some DUers. :yoiks: DU is at it's best and worst at times like this. :-(

[The Doctor.]

32. So what's wrong with the OP?

[laststeamtrain]

16. K & R--The pseudo-grief zombies just like to feel like they're part of the group.

Like a lynch mob does.

They'll never admit that, but they will call you names if you don't join the group.

An ugly manifestation of the way some people chose to be.

[PoliticalAmazon]

28. YES, thank you. I will miss Russert, he had become part of my weekends...

but he was NOT a good journalist. He was a partisan hack passing himself off as a holier-than-thou, above-the-fray, ethical professional.

Doesn't mean I won't miss him. Hell, I would miss Pat Buchanan. But I'm not about to start saying Pat was anything other than what he is.

[last_texas_dem]

82. You said it

Every time a public figure dies, I end up being more disgusted by the self-righteous, holier-than-thou mob that accumulates on this site in order to call out the "heretics" than the handful of posters actually making callous statements about the dead.

I don't see what the OP is saying as out of line at all; I believe that it is nice to say positive things about someone who has died, but not to build them up into something that they were not, or to say positive things about someone that you do not truly believe.

[PoliticalAmazon]

19. THANK YOU. I felt his interviews were usually biased pro-GOP/anti-Dem...

And he would deliver the most softball questions to the Republicans.

[AllentownJake]

21. When both sides accuse you of being biased

Generally speaking your fair.

I always viewed him as fair since he pissed off both sides.

[The Doctor.]

34. That's not a reliable metric.

Sure, in some cases it's an indication of 'fairness', but we know how right-leaning the M$M is in actuality, yet the denizens of Right-wing boards call all of it the 'liberal media'.

Are you suggesting that is proof the media is fair?

[kath]

77. many here are suggesting that, sadly.

pretty darned simplistic level of analysis, IMHO. But very pervasive here. Not much in the way of critical thinking skills.

[KaptBunnyPants]

54. That sentiment is why "working the refs" is a winning strategy for Republicans.

And the same exact statement could be made for Bill Oreilly, who freepers call a closet liberal. When Bill dies, will DU declare him to be the reincarnation of Edward R. Murrow?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

66. i agree.

[Raineyb]

88. I'm sorry but that is a load of crap

In journalism pissing off both sides means you're not doing your job because one side is pissed because you didn't do your job and the other side is pissed because you're not sufficiently sycophantic.

The side A said this and side B said that version of journalism makes it seem as both sides can be correct. There are many times when that is not the case and to present an argument in such a fashion does a huge disservice to the public to whom the media outlet or journalist is supposed to be serving.

It's like having a discussion with two people and one is a flat earther and continues to say, loudly and vociferously that the earth is flat. Then you bring on someone who says no, the earth is round. But at the end of the segment you say well you both make good points we'll agree to disagree.

If one side is clearly and obviously wrong it does no service to the truth to give it equal billing with the truth which is what the mainstream media does all too often and that includes MTP.

Regards

[Guava Jelly]

23. I ended up deleting my similar thread

And it was even more respectful than this one.
I don't hate the man, and I feel for his friends and family.
I hated his work.

[undeterred]

26. I didn't consider him to be "fair"

because he let the right get away with murder and treason. He wasn't my idea of a journalist. :shrug:

[chieftain]

46. I've read all the replies and it is obvious that some folks are

appalled by my callousness and some folks disagree with my assessment of Russert as a journalist. After due thought, I want you all to know that if I had it to do all over again, I would make the exact same post.

[Raineyb]

90. I'm glad you did

Personally, I needed to see some honest discussion in his role as a so-called journalist.

It was the media who helped sell this disastrous war to the American public and look at what we're reaping because of it.

Regards

[chieftain]

92. Thanks

[greyghost]

50. I agree wholeheartedly with your op. Russert was from lower middle

class beginnings, his father was a garbage collector in Buffalo for Christ sake. The Carlson's, Will's, Buchanan's, of the punditry are all products of their roots.

It's as if Russert was a wannabe, somewhere along the path he lost his way. I'm not about to sit idly by and allow them to canonize him the way they did Nixon and Reagan.

[symbolman]

60. Russet was a Cheney ass licker

I have no respect for him whatsoever. He was amazingly spot on when it came to predictions re Elections, but when its faxed over to you by Rove its not so hard to figure out..

I wish they'd get back to the news, show a banner for mourners, have a special show on Father's day, two hours if they must, otherwise cut the bullshit.. A lot us more than I'd ever care to know about him..

Remember that many people were probably doomed to violent deaths re: the Plame Outing, in which it was found that he knew a considerable amount about, after he lied.

Hes not a journalist, Chronkite was, but not him.

I'm sorry for his family, but they are damn close to canonizing him as a Statesman, and nothing could be farther from the truth..

But let the Concern Vultures rule the day, as always.. :)

[greyghost]

61. Well said.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. so scream. screaming is better than being classless and tacky.

[Bensthename]

68. WTF, I totally disagree... He wasnt a Keith O. but he tried to be non biased and objective..

I have watched him every Sunday for the past 15 years.. He was one of the greats..

[malik flavors]

69. it's a testament to his professionalism that you are just as mad at him as Bill O'Rielly.

When the far left and far right both hate you as a journalist, you know you're doing a good job.

R.I.P. Tim, you were one of the good ones. You gave it to both sides equally, and you should be proud that this jerk that created this Op is mad at you.

Now, how about we wait atleast a day or so before we start trashing the deceased.

[kath]

79. See Dr eldritch's post #34 -- NOT a reliable metric.

at all. way too simplistic.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

71. will we ever find out exactly what his role was in the outing of Valarie Plame now?

[greyghost]

72. Good question.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

73. okay I'm putting on my foil hat now...what with Scott going to testify before congress this week

about Bush?Cheney's lies.


:shrug:

[greyghost]

74. Tis time for theReynolds Wrap...

Love the McCain "bumper sticker":)

[Breeze54]

76. Say it! Say it loud and say it proud!!!

:kick: & Recommended!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Honeycombe8]

84. He was a fair and impartial TV journalist. Repubs loved him. Dems loved him.

And at times Repubs didn't like his interview, and Dems didn't like his interview.

That's how you know he was impartial.

[Zodiak]

85. No it isn't

It is not a reliable metric at all. If one side's strategy is to work the refs no matter what, then you will always feel the media is liberal when the left doesnlt complain, or unbiased when both are complaining. While such a strategy is in place, people who use your method of erroneous thinking will never arrive at the conclusion that the media is right-wing biased, even if it is.

Look at everything that has happened in the last 8 years, most of it bourne on the wings of so called "journalists" who never bothered to be more than stenographers. All of the lies benefitted the right...and even current issues cannot get airtime or are terribly biased against reality.

Russert contributed to this, and his contributions have been documented. He was a stenographer, not a journalist.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

86. agreed!

[Eurobabe]

89. k&r

[chieftain]

91. Even those of you who were angered by my post, have got to

admit that MSNBC has gone way over the top in its wall-to-wall homage to Russert the journalist.It reminds me of the Republicans myth-making effort to take the pedestrian, at best, regime of Ronald Reagan and turn it into a competing legend to JFK's Camelot. For those of us who are not hoodwinked by the transparently bogus argument that criticism from both sides of the political spectrum is irrefutable proof of fairness, it is hard to listen to this General Electric propaganda without offering a counterpoint. As I said, I feel very bad for him and his family. It is clearly a personal tragedy for them and for the lives he touched. But let's not abandon our critical faculties while the Corporate Media turns the man that Cheney's Office considered their go-to guy for spreading lies into some journalistic icon.

[tilsammans]

94. He was a beloved husband, father, and son . . .

. . . may he rest in peace.

But all that said . . . just as the Iraq war was about to start, I saw him speak at a local university. I was shocked at how on board he was with us going to war, not to mention the Bushista mindset that put us in that position.

From then on, I couldn't bear to listen to him, the same way I can't bear to listen to Chimpy.

How many viewers were swayed toward that POV, regarding Russert as authoritative and knowledgeable? I shudder at the thought.

Too late now. :cry:

[ileus]

95. BS....everyone can't lean to our side.

You can't give Sean, Rush and gang too many MSM journalist to make fun of...without Tim the RW will be able to prove their point about bias IMHO.

[chieftain]

99. So do I understand your post to acknowledge that Russert

favored the GOP side?