I do NOT feel as though McCain's military record should be questioned

[goldcanyonaz]

Like Kerry he served his country honorably! Every thing else is open season

[PermanentRevolution]

1. I don't either, BUT...

I DO feel it's perfectly valid to question exactly why his experience grants him any better foreign policy credentials, like Gen. Clark has been.

[Labors of Hercules]

103. Exactly. If Military service makes him better in foreign policy,

does that mean every person who served in the military is also a foreign policy expert?

Because my Brother was in the military for 5 years and served his country honorably, but he's still an idiot. :shrug:

[1Hippiechick]

106. Exactly! Well said. On another thread "Being in prison does not qualify me for the Warden's job"

:kick:

[kwenu]

2. I agree in as much as I don't care. I'm concerned about the future and what he would do.

[babylonsister]

3. I agree. The 'experience' he claims from that experience needs to be

questioned copiously. A POW equals a great prez? Why?

[JimGinPA]

4. Okay Then - Explain How Being Shot Down & Spending 5 Years As A POW Qualifies Someone To Be CIC?

[Occam Bandage]

6. I'm okay with denying that as a qualification. I'm not okay with attacking him for

"selling out" to the NVA, or for being a Manchurian candidate, or any of that type of shit.

[yardwork]

119. I absolutely agree.

Oddly enough, it's the extreme right that has always started these bizarre stories about McCain's status as a POW. They believe - why I'm not sure - that McCain was actually an agent of the Vietcong who sold out his fellow prisoners of war. They're also mad at him for helping to normalize relations with Vietnam.

The right-wing looney-tunes can't accept that the U.S. lost the war in Vietnam. They've created a whole false mythology that our thousands of MIA are actually still alive, being kept in Vietnam alive and brainwashed. They think that McCain knows this, and that he colluded with John Kerry (a Democrat!!!!) to keep the secret.

It's insane but provides a window into the minds of the extreme right. I would be ashamed to go along with it in any way.

[Occam Bandage]

5. I don't like the stirrings of swiftboating I'm seeing.

I've seen stuff from this site posted a few times across the internet, and it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. McCain served honorably. He was a complete cock after he left the service, and has in recent years turned into a half-senile party-line Republican. I think those are better lines of attack than his Vietnam record.

[MurrayDelph]

11. I agree. John McCain served admirably,

but he has been a real shitheel ever since.

We do not question what he did in the service, merely that he seems to have learned nothing about supporting the troops from it.

And his CIC credentials seem to be in the form of "I have no leadership experience, but I did spend 2000 nights in the Hanoi Hilton".

[tblue]

16. I may be the odd man out here, but I don't believe dropping napalm makes you admirable

although, I will say, refusing his captors' offer of repatriation until every man taken in before him was released sounds honorable enough.

[goldcanyonaz]

18. They were at war! dear G-d, N/M!!

[tblue]

22. So all's fair in love and war? That's your standard maybe. Not mine.

[cliffordu]

24. It must be wonderful to have the luxury of that position.

[goldcanyonaz]

26. That position is always a luxury when in the comfort of ones home

[cliffordu]

32. That's why I think EVERYONE needs to do a year of public service -

either a tour in the military or conservation corps or the peace corps or the bicycle infrastructure building corps...

Everyone should serve their country in any capacity they can, for a while. It might make it harder for people to NOT give a shit about others.

But that's just me.

[tblue]

31. It's not such a luxury to have bombs dropped on you.

In either Vietnam or Iraq. And somebody flew those planes. And somebody dropped those bombs. I don't happen to think that's so admirable. If you do, bully for you.

[JoFerret]

139. So shall we look for this purist line of thinking

when it comes to Iraq vets in support of Obama?

[iconicgnom]

29. They were in an immoral war of conquest 1/2 way 'round the world,

dropping Napalm on villages to smoke out men of military age, to be slaughtered. The people of Vietnam, both North and South, were called "gooks". The war was so awful, so destructive of the psyches of american youth, that a nationwide anti-war culture was born as a form of self-healing, and there was rebellion on the streets.

That isn't the pretty picture that the right-wing paints today. That wasn't Rambo, crying into his machine gun because the US wouldn't let them use nukes. "Wouldn't let them win". You know, the image that McCain is selling, if you want to buy. The image that the US can "win" in Iraq, and Iran, and everywhere, if enough military force is applied. If there are no chickenshit constraints.

[cliffordu]

33. Nice to see someone REALLY show thier ignorance about VietNam

on the board once in a while....To get two is REALLY hilarious.

Thanks!!

[tblue]

36. Nice post. Sarcasm with no substance.

[cliffordu]

40. My tour in Viet Nam had substance, your opinion about that war,

not so much. Thanks for playing, though.

[tblue]

41. How do you know I wasn't in Nam? Huh?

You have no idea where I've been, and what I have seen and done.

You have your beliefs about war. I have mine. That anyone can justify dropping napalm for any reason, says a lot about that person.

Oh and you're welcome. Good night and good luck.

[cliffordu]

43. Only people in the movies call it "The Nam"

:rofl:

[iconicgnom]

58. Everyone just said "Nam"

[iconicgnom]

55. And that's McCain's argument too.

It's invalid. There's a lot more to the issue than whether someone was a Veitnam vet. The mere claim (verifiable) that one is a Vietnam Vet doesn't give a sufficient basis for upholding an assertion that someone else's description of this or that period of history is full of shit. It doesn't give McCain such credentials in a debate with Obama, and it doesn't give you such credentials in a debate with me.

[cliffordu]

62. I have nothing to do with McCain's argument.

I can tell you what it was like on the ground there, for me. Your description of it, judgement about it, opinion about it is meaningless within the scope of that experience.

And that DOES give me the right to call your description - your pseudo-intellectual description - of what it was and what it meant, complete bullshit.

For a lot of people that war wasn't (and isn't now) an exercise in grand pronouncements or major opinion or school papers due at the end of the term.

For some of us, Viet Nam is sacred ground. A place where our brothers and sisters in arms laid down their lives.

This includes the people on the other side, as well. Their ghosts don't rest any better than do our own.

Whether the war was moral, right, wrong or fucking stupid in your opinion does NOT matter to them, or to me.


edit for clarity...

[iconicgnom]

64. Oh jeez. You clown.

[cliffordu]

67. Clown? Why, thank you.

[TahitiNut]

128. Yup.

:patriot: :pals:

[cliffordu]

130. Yo!

:patriot:

[iconicgnom]

48. I lived thru' those days - my late teens and early twenties.

Of course, the US youth that I saw most of up here in Canada was the draft dodger type and those who came with them. A lot came with young families to build beautiful homesteads in the north, or settle into our cities and help us build. I have the very best impression of americans, from those I've met here and from the few times I've travelled south. Not all, of course, but the ones I encountered were uniformly friendly and, at more than one critical time, stunningly helpful.

I picked up hitch-hikers heading into Detroit, at night, riding alone in my van - and told them to grab a beer (Canadian) from the cooler. They did, and I wasn't afraid. That isn't part of the story usually told anymore - and that's sad. In comparison, 2008 is an age of ratcheted up fear.

Even nowadays few try to get away with telling stories about how the Vietnam war was some kind of heroic war for democracy and freedom. More often, it's simply *assumed* that it was. It's *assumed* that someone who says different is "anti-american" or etc. But that's always the way it has been. And skipping a few generations, that's the way it is regarding the war in Iraq. *Of course* the #1 Bush/McCain/Republican tactic vs. Obama is to question his patriotism.

[cliffordu]

57. You will never hear me say Viet Nam was a heroic war. It was the

stupidest waste of some of the finest humans who have ever walked this planet.

But I didn't know that when I signed the dotted line.

The fix was in when I was in grade school for Christ's sake. The girls all went to "health class" to learn a little about reproduction and WE went to a class where they taught us about the Domino theory.

In my family, in my town, in my life, men served when called. Ya just didn't question it.

[JohnnyLib2]

101. Thank you, from one who rarely agrees with you!

I'm pretty sure the age/experience factor is at play in some of these posts.
Some don't grasp that to dishonor one RVN vet is (or can be) a slap at all.

Hated the swiftboating, won't participate in reverse, don't even have a need to defend my Army years anymore.

And besides all that--this approach did-not-work with GWB. :grr:

[cliffordu]

121. You're welcome and thanks for the support.

If anyone needs to be swiftboated it's the morons who set these wars up to being with.

War is a war crime when we talk about it here, but I never served with anyone who I would consider a war criminal. It cuts to my core to have someone I don't know imply that I could be a murderer or a war criminal.

Odd how no one ever does that to my face.

I think age and experience does have a lot to do with the rancor some of the personal attacks have shown.

My only point, really is the whether he is a war criminal, hero, or something in between, McCain suffered enough when he was there, and on that basis alone THAT experience should be off limits.

His behavior since has been scummy enough since to deep six the fucker.

I mean really, he's been asshole enough to soooo many people that keeping him out of the White House will take NO detours from the high road.....just a reciting of the facts.

The worst part about the war for me? I lost the illusion that we are the good guys.

We're not. We're just the other guys.

:patriot:



edit for clearness...lol

[1Hippiechick]

112. "In my family, in my town, in my life, men served when called. Ya just didn't question it."

Which is why, as our children were growing up in the 70s and 80s, we told them about our feelings about the VietNam War, the draft, etc. AND, we told them that if the draft were ever reinstated while they were of draft age, we would HELP them flee to Canada!

"People have not been horrified by war to a sufficient extent ... War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige as the warrior does today." John F. Kennedy

[cliffordu]

123. Yep, you're right.

I did tell my younger brother after I came back and he wanted to enlist that I'd be glad to kneecap him so he could cut to the chase and just tell people he was a veteran.

I don't know if I was really kidding him or not. I begged him for MONTHS not to enlist. He finally relented.

[ekwhite]

100. Ignorance?

It was an immoral, illegal war. We did drop thousands of tons of Napalm and Defoliants on Vietnam. We did invade Cambodia illegally. I was one of the millions protesting the war. Vietnam was a horror perpetrated on the Vietnamese people and American soldiers because of the "domino theory." It was an unwinnable war from the beginning, just as Iraq is. What is ignorant about saying that?

[cliffordu]

122. Hmm

YOU are talking about what the powers that be ordered a bunch of 18 year olds to do.

That's fine.

When I say these people are ignorant, it's because they get very close to blaming my friends for what Nixon

and his generals ordered us to do.

Military prison for refusing orders is a very powerful motivator.

Not letting your squad down is unthinkable.

I imagine in a few years kids will be blaming the Iraq war vets for this clusterfuck, too.

But I'll bet they won't do it to their faces.

My best friend was in Cambodia briefly, but he didn't find out he'd been there until he'd been back in Vietnam for a month.

Blame the war makers, not the soldiers. I volunteered to go, but if I REALLY had a choice do you think I'd have gone??

[iconicgnom]

125. Criticizing a war, and war crimes is NOT the same as "blaming vets"

That's a right-wing smear, that's a right-wing spin designed to put opponents of a war, in particular critics of a war of choice like Vietnam and Iraq, on the defensive. To defend against charges of being "against the troops", then to defend again charges of being "collaborators with the enemy", of being "unpatriotic", and so on.

"kids" don't blame Vietnam vets for the Vietnam war - that's a canard. That was a canard back in the days of massive anti-Vietnam war rallies, and it's a canard today. I shouldn't have to say "yes, of course some do", because "of course, some do __" applies to anything, and I'm sure it's easy to find a youtube link to support a canard like that. But to say that the kids who were protesting the Vietnam war at the time were "blaming the vets" for the war, for the crime, is a total defamation of an entire generational movement. Those "kids" were draftable ones, or brothers, sisters, friends, lovers, mothers and dads, of the draftable or drafted. Nor were enlistees and career military "blamed".

[cliffordu]

127. I am primarily speaking of the ones blaming us now.

On the other hand I got called a butcher or the equivalent more than once.

Like I said, it's easy to sit on your ass and criticize my experience, another to have been with me then.

Don't confuse my points with right wing smear campaigns. I simply speak from experience.

Didn't you actually call me a clown a while ago?

Class is over. You have my sympathy.

[iconicgnom]

129. Yah, I did. It was a fitting response to your repetition that these issues are somehow

critizing your experience, that the issue is somehow about you, and an attack on "vets". That spin is total bullshit.

In fact it was YOU who've been beating the drum "you aren't a vet, you aren't experienced, your POV is invalid" that McCain uses against Obama:
"Nice to see someone REALLY show thier ignorance about VietNam
on the board once in a while....To get two is REALLY hilarious.
Thanks!!"

[ekwhite]

134. Probably not

My brother volunteered for the Air Force so he wouldn't get drafted. He ended up serving in Thailand as a "recip mechanic." It was a relatively safe job, from what he told me, other than the odd pot shot taken from across the Mekong. He worked on the prop planes that carried the gatling guns (I forget the designation). I don't blame him for working on those weapons - he would have ended up on the front lines otherwise.

McCain was one of those bastards who were gung ho for the war, however. He still is gung ho for war.

[cabbage08]

131. Thank you for your service

[cliffordu]

132. You're welcome and thanks for the support.

:patriot:

[tblue]

34. Thank you

It's disturbing to me, this knee-jerk support or glorifying of all things military. If we had more conscientious objectors, maybe we'd have fewer wars. I'm not saying it's easy to go that route, but it's not special honor not to, imho.

[ekwhite]

102. It wasn't a war of conquest

It was an anti-insurgency campaign. That is what made Vietnam so particularly horrible. Thousands of American soldiers and millions of Vietnamese were killed in that war. I was part of the anti-war movement back then. The anti-war movement wasn't really about self-healing, it was about shutting down the war. The healing didn't come until afterwards. For some, it never came.

[Major Hogwash]

120. Sure it was, we tired to "Americanize" Vietnam just like we did in Germany and Japan.

And we all know how successful that was.

This is why this stupid, ignorant, assinine stance of McCain's has to be pushed back and pushed back hard.
Iraq is not Germany.
Nor is it Japan.
It isn't even Korea.

And any attempts to link them together have to be confronted.

[ekwhite]

136. Vietnam was another tragedy of errors, just like Iraq

Iraq is another insurgency war based on a skewed view of the world. The whole PNAC plan was just the "domino theory" in reverse. We topple one mid-east dictatorship, and the rest will follow. It was stupid to think the fall of Vietnam would cause Thailand to go Communist. It was equally stupid to think that toppling Saddam Hussein would cause the other Middle Eastern dictatorships to fall.

Just as resisting the insurgency in Vietnam was pointless, resisting the insurgency in Iraq is equally pointless. We have apparently learned nothing from the lessons of Vietnam.

[Major Hogwash]

142. The domino theory was the basis for the war of conquest in Vietnam.

The PNAC plan was not the same - the goal wasn't trying to prevent any more countries from turning communist like the domino plan suggested would happen.

The PNAC plan involved invading or threatening to invade 7 Middle Eastern countries.
Yet, it wasn't to prevent those countries from becoming communist, which was the fear mongering tool the Eisenhower administration used clear back in the 50s.

The PNAC plan's goal was to dominate the entire Middle Eastern region and control the oil resources of all of those countries, in order to prevent Russia or China from dominating that region first, which was the fear mongering tool that the Bush administration believed in.
Which is why they keep referring to Israel being threatened by those countries.

However, Israel is in more danger now as a result of the Iraq War.

[cliffordu]

124. I used to work with the homeless as a kind of atonement....

the majority of men in their 50's and 60's on the street right now are Vietnam Veterans. The Iraq war vets are starting to show up in alarming numbers.

I met a homeless woman who had been a nurse at the hospital near China Beach. I don;t think she ever recovered.

She was no war criminal.

[ekwhite]

135. She most certainly wasn't

The war criminals were mostly back in the Pentagon, as they are today. Most people were like John Kerry, doing their jobs and risking their lives to keep their people safe. I hated the bastards who called Vietnam Vets 'baby killers.'

[Warren Stupidity]

74. No we were not at war.

There was no war declared. We put ourselves into a civil war in a foreign land that we had no business being in, and proceeded to kill millions of people who never did our nation any harm. Does that sound familiar?

This attitude that career military officers are beyond reproach, that they are not to be questioned about what they have done or how they did it, this worship and adulation of the military is one of the distinguishing characteristics of a fascist society.

The use of napalm was a war crime.

John McCain was a lousy pilot.

[OwnedByFerrets]

87. In utter agreement...nt

[JoFerret]

94. Nothing admirable but

So no need for adulation. BUT - no need to tear down either. I am with you on that.

[ekwhite]

99. That's the point

Being a pilot doesn't make you honorable. Refusing repatriation until every man taken before you does. The Vietnam war was an atrocity, but the fault doesn't lie with the soldiers, sailors, and airmen. Just as in this war, the fault lies in Washington and in the supporters of this war outside DC.

[WA98070]

45. Not according to many who knew him.

[PoliticalAmazon]

146. I don't know, and I don't care, if he served admirably. There is no profit for us ...

in attacking a perceived war hero's record.

He has plenty of other weak points, and that should be our focus.

[iconicgnom]

20. Too bad he debases his own record by running almost exclusively on

"John McCain, Hero, ex-POW".

I mean, he debases it because he's running as the ultra-hawk "blow them all to hell and back" candidate. With Lieberman behind him at every photo-op the two of them are itching out of their Mr. Burns-like skins to bomb Iran. Too bad McCain can't form a sentence without telling a lie. Too bad he can't even parse what he's told to say, so can't remember what he said from one sentence to the next. Too bad he can't describe events in Iraq without fabricating lie after lie. Too bad he now supports torture, while holding up his "I was a tortured POW" credential as shield against any actual opposition. Too bad, in order for Dems to talk about the most critical events of the century, they have to wade through paragraphs of praise for McCain's heroism only then being allowed to add as caveat "but he's full of shit".

I have no doubt that the Republicans will do everything in their power to swiftboat Obama, but under cover of 527's. I don't go for swiftboating anybody, including John McCain - the old slogans "two wrongs don't equal right" still hold true. Nevertheless Dems have an OBLIGATION to push McCain's nose in the crimes against humanity that he has supported - and that means Dems have an OBLIGATION to loudly and clearly demonstrate the flat out CONTRADICTION between the iconic "John McCain, hero", and the reality of "John McCain, political leader of a party defined by war crimes".

I want to see John McCain SMASHED by his own message.

[OzarkDem]

28. That's pretty bad

I can't believe someone is putting something like that on the internet. Who is that guy?

[ekwhite]

105. Apparently someone what wants revenge

It looks like they are trying to Swiftboat McCain. I don't go in for that myself.

[Forkboy]

7. There's so much other stuff....

He's the gift that keeps on giving. :)

[mckara]

8. I'm Prepared to Question Everything About McCain

When the repugs play fairly, then we'll play fairly!

I'm a retired naval officer, and McCain's military record defines the early stages of his adult life. His conduct at that time deserves our scrutiny, as his behavior often lacked honor.

[tblue]

38. Me, too.

[Clovis Sangrail]

9. why?

if the quality of Obama's military experience (or lack thereof) is being used against him I see no reason why the quality of McCain's military experience is off grounds.

I think it's a losing strategy to really go after his military record but I think it's perfectly fair in the context of somebody claiming his military experience somehow makes him qualified at something other than catching bullets.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Are you aware of the USS Forrestal disaster and McCain's role in it? nt

[tblue]

12. Never heard of it. Do tell.........

[jgraz]

13. Exactly. Like everything else in his life, McCain's military record is a fairy tale

He's played the maverick, and it's been shown to be a lie. He's played a straight-talker and that's been shown to be a lie. He's played a centrist and that's been shown to be a lie.

Why should we accept his self-designation as a war hero?

[goldcanyonaz]

14. Then Kerrys was as well

[jgraz]

15. That's some stellar logic right there

:eyes:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ekwhite]

109. What?

Kerry was a decorated war hero - a bronze star, a silver star, and three purple hearts. He got those awards legitimately.

McCain suffered legitimately, and I do not want to denigrate his service, but Kerry's claim is backed up by medals. McCain's is not, despite being an admiral's son. He served honorably, but it is a stretch to call McCain a "War Hero."

[tularetom]

17. Which version? There are several.

The widely accepted version is that McCains aircraft was struck by an errant Zuni missile which caused a huge fiery explosion causing the death of 130 crew members. However there is another version which posits that McCain accidentally fired the missile into another plane. There are accounts of both stories on various websites.

As of the time of this incident McCain had already wrecked three aircraft but for some reason was absolved of any responsibility in each instance. Not that the son of an admiral would ever receive favorable treatment or anything.


Looks like just another case of a shiftless young punk with a well connected daddy being allowed to fail his way through life. Where have we heard that before?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. Funny how he was transferred IMMEDIATELY after it happened.

Usually, they'd want to keep a pilot whose aircraft was intricately involved in a deadly incident around so they could figure out what happened. But nooooo....

They let him go, probably because the remaining crew wanted to kill him. But we'll never know, will we? Because he was the admiral's son and he's an "American Hero" now.

:puke:

[RamboLiberal]

39. He wasn't that badly injured and they needed pilots

He went over to the Oriskany to continue flying. Not that friggin' uncommon. The Forrestal was out of commission for a very long time for aircraft operations. His aircraft didn't cause the accident. Probably took his statement and let him go do what he was trained for. I'd bet most of the Forrestal pilots who were uninjured left the ship and didn't accompany her back to drydock.

[ekwhite]

111. Interesting

Check this site out. This tells the story of the Forrestal fire. Apparently McCain's plane was waiting in line for take-off when McCain heard a "whooshing sound, then an explosion."

[RamboLiberal]

35. Get real - McCain had nothing to do with the Forrestal Fire

You read it on the internet so it must be true. :sarcasm: That site is so full of shit they don't even get the number of casualties on the ship correct.

McCain's plane was well forward and across the deck from the plane whose Zuni rocket accidentally fired across the deck when an electrical surge when they switched from external to internal power on that plane. The rocket went across the deck hitting on sailor in the shoulder instantly removing his arm. The rocket then struck McCain's plane going through his external fuel tank starting the fire. An old WWII thin skinned bomb that should've never been loaded on the Forrestal but was because the Navy was short of bombs due to the increased bombing demands of LBJ and McNamara's war. The bomb cooked off in 134 seconds knocking out the firefighting team. Other WWII bombs continued to cook off devastating the ship.

The lie is that McCain was doing a "wet start" that set off the rocket. Impossible if you look at the positions of the planes. Oh and the exaust of the engine McCain's jet was facing the ocean. It would've been the "magic jet exaust" if it managed to loop around the stern from port to starboard and struck the plane whose Zuni rocket fired.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. Do you have a photo of the planes BEFORE the incident?

Because your assertion about where they were positioned is worthless without that.

You have an account of what happened from the internet, and from the official DOD account afterwards, so it must be true. :sarcasm:

[RamboLiberal]

56. Watch this video which shows the postions

The plane that fired the rocket was 110, McCain's plane is 405.

And you're assertion is totally worthless as well. This video has testimony from a sailor that was on the deck! What the hell do you think took the sailor in the middle of the deck's arm off at the shoulder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxGV-eRUC_0

There's a good book out on the accident called "Sailors to the End". There's also posted in 5 parts a British investigative program on the accident.

Here's part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6l1rwQJjYg&feature=related

All you have for proof is some asshole swiftboaters who put up a website that is as full of crap as the stuff run against Kerry.

This is a fuckin' losing issue to try to run against McCain. I hope there's no 527 on our side stupid enough to try to run with this lying crap.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. I can't see a damn thing from that. The explosion occurs one second after the footage begins.

As for 527's, we said the same thing about the Swiftboaters against Kerry. They were stupid enough, and it worked.

I frankly don't give a flying fuck about John McCain's precious reputation as a war hero. Let him defend his performance on the Forrestal and as a POW. It's time we show them the same "respect" they show us, which is to say, NONE.

The rumor that McCain caused the Forrestal disaster is out there. I say let him prove he didn't. Welcome to world of Democrats, John.

Seriously though, don't worry RamboLiberal, it'll never happen. There could be footage of your hero McCain personally launching the missile that caused the Forrestal disaster, and then eating Vietnamese babies with a knife and fork. All the MSM would do is coo over how HEROICALLY he did those things!

[OwnedByFerrets]

88. You are probably right about that last paragraph.

[RamboLiberal]

59. Why don't you write the sailors who were there?

Here's the website in honor of their ship. http://www.forrestal.org/ Or the Forrestal association. http://www.lancehatfield.com/2004wback.htm Maybe you can get kind of reply the Wingnuts got when they tried to smear Obama's uncle's WWII Concentration Camp liberation story.

Here's what they posted on the accident.

Forrestal arrived on Yankee Station on July 25 and immediately began combat operations, her aircraft flying 150 sorties during the next 4 days, without the loss of a single aircraft. At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch. The ensuing fire caused ordinance to explode and other rockets to ignite. Spread by the wind, the flames engulfed the aft end of the stricken ship turning the flight deck into a blazing inferno.. Berthing spaces immediately below the flight deck became death traps for fifty men, while other crewmen were blown overboard by the explosion.

http://forrestal.org/fidfacts/page13.htm

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. Why don't you stick to one response? I know you love McCain, but damn!

BTW, all that link says is that a Zuni rocket "accidentally" fired. Doesn't say what caused it.

[RamboLiberal]

63. I don't give a damn about McCain

But I don't like your stupid smears. You're no better than the lying swiftboaters from 2004 and you have no damn proof except some stupid web rumors. Funny I just visited a bunch of sites run by Forrestal vets and not one of them has the stupid rumor about McCain to be to blame.

You're the jerk with no proof! You're not living up to your Obama avatar! You damn well know Obama and his campaign wouldn't touch this crap.

Don't bother replying I just put you on ignore.

[JoFerret]

140. You would think the anti McCain folk

(i.e all of us on DU) could find find better things to do than wallow in these dead ends.

[kevinmc]

19. There's a group of Vets that are already planning on doing it. .... n/t

[cliffordu]

23. I agree. He gives us everything we need on a daily basis.

McCain talking about ANYTHING is what the Naval Aviator might refer to as a 'target rich environment'. The worst part is trying to keep up with the gaffes, misinformation and the rapid fire bullshit that is his speechmaking.

When he opens his fucking mouth, 'Democrat gold' appears.

We can leave his past completely alone and he will supply us with enough of that gold to really cash in this November.

(How's that for some really sick metaphor mangling??)

[OzarkDem]

27. I agree, Dems can only lose by trying to attack him

He served honorably and suffered horribly, as did many other pilots who were shot down and spent years enduring torture in POW camps.

Any Obama supporters who wish to tarnish my party's reputation with those kind of tactics should reconsider.

Focus on the issues. Focus on things he's done wrong while in public office. But don't try to smear his military service, the backlash will be huge.

[goletian]

30. if he uses it against obama, its open to attack. fuck mccain.

[Fox Mulder]

37. I disagree with you there.

[WA98070]

44. He did not! He served himself and his family history. You have to work at finishing near the .....

bottom of your class unless you only got in because you were a "legacy." And to get into flight school from the bottom took about as much suction as getting into the Texas National Guard.

[Raine]

46. I don't either

it's just going to make us look really bad, like those asses at the reTHUG convention who wore purple bandages. :puke:

[tkmorris]

47. You have no idea whether he served honorably or not

So, your entire opinion is based upon facts not in evidence.

[WA98070]

51. Read his own words, or Google him.

[tkmorris]

68. *I* know a great deal about McCain

I have no need to google him. It's our OP who doesn't know a damned thing, and doesn't care to.

[goldcanyonaz]

52. Neither did I know about kerry but i stuck up for him till the bitter end

[tkmorris]

69. Why would you do that, if you don't know you're correct?

Kerry served honorably. Unlike you, I KNOW that because I checked. McCain served as one with a military silver spoon in their mouth often does, poorly but well covered for.

[WA98070]

49. The facts are not an attack when stated in answer to lies. He runs on it so the truth...

should be told. The whole truth not just selective sections of his resume.

[AlCzervik]

50. i let oppo research for the campaign figure out if there is a there, there.

who knows, someone here might find something.

[WA98070]

53. I do agree that it's up to Obama and his op research team but they shouldn't...

avoid it if there is a there, there.

[RamboLiberal]

66. You know Obama and his team would not go there

They know there is no reason to go there and this would be a loser for them!

[last_texas_dem]

54. Ideally, I think we should refrain from attacking McCain's service

But if it happens, I won't lose any sleep over it. The media gave the Smear Vets' bullshit far more of an airing than it deserved. Considering that, if there are any substantive aspects of McCain's service worthy of criticism, I won't mind seeing them brought to light. McCain could have done a much better job standing up for his fellow veteran as he was being smeared, but chose instead to give AWOL Cokehead-in-Chief on-stage bear hugs, believing it would advance his own political career. McCain seems to have forgotten everything he ever knew about honor.

[RamboLiberal]

65. I agree - this would be a loser for Obama

And I hope there are no stupid 527s on our side that try it. I'd rather not even see a wingnut 527 try it. Somehow it would still blow back on Obama. And the media would side with McCain on this one. I've seen the stuff on McCain on the web and IMHO it's a bunch of crap same as got pulled on Kerry in '04.

[insanity]

70. He served with honor but that does not make him Presidential

I don't think a service record correlates to Presidential experience, especially when his grasp of the issues that are crippling the modern service is quite lacking

[ashling]

71. Military service is no more sacred

than any other background. The man throws it in our collective faces every opportunity he gets. It is part of his resume that he has thrown into the ring/publicsquare/whatever metaphor you want to use.

Rule of Evidence: #1 if the opposition brings up the topic on direct examination, you get to cross on that topic. end of story.

[opihimoimoi]

72. Does he use a 3 wood off the tee?

[Butch350]

73. No it Shouldn't!!

But, there are a lot of us veterans out here who volunteered and served our country. I am one.

But it burns my buns when someone feels they should cast a vote for McCain because he is a war hero
and only he can deliver us from the meanie terrorists who may blow me up in my local wal mart store!

He was just an air force pilot. Dropping bombs from aloft. He gets shot down. He spends 5 years in a POW Camp!

So how does this make him the greatest prospect for POTUS or a great military Strategist that's gonna deliver us from
the evil doings of terrorists. You call that experience? Sounds to me like he'd be great on giving advice on how
survive 5 years in a POW camp not running the country. (IMHO)

BUT I DO RESPECT HIS SERVICE CAREER as a fellow Veteran! That is all.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. Things we cannot use against McCain

1) his dismal military record.
2) his age and alarming displays of senility
3) his involvement in the Keating 5 scandal
4) his nasty divorce and wretched behavior toward women, including calling his 2nd wife a cunt in public.
5) his recent adulterous affair/conflict of interest with a lobbiest.

Are there other things I've missed that are 'off the table' over our heartfelt concern that we conduct a fair and balanced political campaign free of any taint of dirty politics while our candidate's wife is referred to as his 'Baby Mamma' on a major network news outlet?

[AZSlacker]

76. I agree to the extent that I don't think that he should be attacked for it

What they are going to do however, that I think is wrong is use it to paint him as a super-patriot, while at the same time using Obama's lack of it as evidence that he hates America

[lojasmo]

77. He was a terrible student. He crashed three planes.

He served honorably, but without skill.

[Elspeth]

80. Are you sure it was pilot error or contractor-based defects in the machine?

In the 1980s, Northrop (before it merged with Grummond) had a number of planes fall out of the sky in routine maneuvers during training. At least one serviceman died and was accused of having committed suicide. Later, it was discovered by Inspector General's office at the Pentagon that the Northrop planes had a defect which quality control had not caught. At the time, Senator John Glenn was on the relevant subcommittee and was very upset that young men in his old stomping grounds (the Air Force) were dying because of the defect.

[lojasmo]

84. I didn't make any conjecture about pilot error.

He was a terrible student (worse than bush) and crashed several times. Bad student, bad pilot.

Looks like at least two were pilot error. One friendly fire, one enemy fire, and one equipment malfunction. (five aircraft lost.)

[Elspeth]

89. You said, "He crashed three planes." To the untrained eye, that implies pilor error.

To those of us who have an understanding of military contractors, the implication is not so clear. Now you say there are 5 planes: 2 that appear to be pilot error, one equipment malfunction, one friendly fire and one enemy fire.

So, at most, he crashed two planes. (The planes in the other cases were brought down by other means.)

Do you know what happened to those two planes? I don't and am very curious.

[lojasmo]

91. One he crashed in the US on the way to a football game

The other was shot down in Viet Nam. I assume the wreckage was captured when he was.

[bridgit]

78. I suppose some feel the same way about Custer

[Maine-ah]

79. if someone is going to run for president, using their military

records as credentials, then I think we have every right to question his activities while in the military, along with having all military records made public if they aren't already.

You wouldn't hire someone with out double checking their resume would you?

[Lerkfish]

81. IMHO, he makes his military record a prevailing reason to vote for him

so, he opens himself up for that type of scrutiny.

[TwilightGardener]

82. As the wife of a career military officer, it's fair game. Jesus, people, it's a JOB, not a

holy and sacred journey.

[Seabiscuit]

83. The problem is the MSM spin: that somehow a military record = foreign policy expertise.

It simply does not.

And the "hero" schtick is ridiculous - how does sitting in a prison cell make one a "hero"??? Maybe it just makes him a lousy pilot.

[wvbygod]

97. It does not take a bad pilot to have a missile rammed up your six

The Navy is not in the habit of flying "bad pilots" and I would no sooner use that title for him
than I would claim Kerry was a "bad soldier" for getting wounded three times. Bad things can happen
when someone is shooting at you...even if you are the "best" pilot, soldier or medic.

[Seabiscuit]

104. By focusing on my jovial little afterthought, you missed the main point of my post.

McCain's record and public statements shows he knows nothing about foreign policy, and would be nothing more than a brain-dead tool of the neocons currently in power. The MSM's ludicrous portrait of him as a "war hero" just because he spent some time as a POW and their equating that experience with "foreign policy expertise" is patently absurd.

The MSM might as well say that spending time in a drunk tank makes one an expert on prison systems around the planet.

[wvbygod]

107. I agree with you

And no, foreign policy is not something one can become an expert at from experiencing what it
is like to absorb "foreign policy" meted by a POW camp.

[Hippo_Tron]

85. We should not lie about his military record, or make baseless accusations about it...

But I certainly see no reason that we can't question it.

[Exilednight]

86. Bullshit. If he is using it as a reason why he should be elected, then it's fair game. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

96. That's what the Swift Boaters said, too.

Do we really want to go that route?

[Exilednight]

117. There's a difference between making up lies, like the swiftboaters, and questioning ........

why parts of his military service make him a better candidate.

The question is not in 'if it should be used', but rather 'how it should be used'.

[Danger Mouse]

118. Also, some of the attacks on John McCain's service have come from the same

RW scumbags who attacked Kerry's record.
I, for one, want nothing to do with their swill.

[barack the house]

90. Yes, it is the wisest approach obama has taken and it stops alienating military independents.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

92. I like Wes Clark's approach...

I honor Sen. McCain for his service to the country, but experience in the military does not make you a military leader, much less a political leader.

I jokingly posted a jpg of Beetle Bailey the other day, suggesting that if military experience alone were sufficient, then he was qualified to be President.

[1Hippiechick]

113. I agree. Wes Clark rocks!

[Norrin Radd]

93. There's no need, as there is enough other stuff --

Keating Five, Dineh-Navajo relocation, etc.

I do think, however, that the repukes incessant use of military service as an iron-clad shield against any and all reproach has to be called-out.

[Danger Mouse]

95. Attacking his military record will only HURT us. I agree with you there.

There's many, many other things we can go after.
We don't need to go there.

[ekwhite]

98. Agreed

Swiftboating McCain on his military service would be revenge for what was done to Kerry, though. One of the disadvantages of being the good guys is that we don't get to go there.

[gulfcoastliberal]

108. is it true that his fellow POWs were promoted while in captivity but Mccain returned at the

same rank he was at when he was captured? He was a Lt. Commander when captured and was still a Lt. Commander when released? Why was he held back?

[Imagevision]

110. How about McCain's involvement with the "Keating Five"...

[SOS]

114. Don't worry, Obama will not allow disgusting displays attacking McCain's service.

He's been clear about that.
Unlike this lowlife loser at the 2004 Republican convention:



Note the John Kerry Purple Heart Band-aid.
It's good that our Party will not stoop to this gutter level of disrespect.

[NeedleCast]

115. Attacking McCain's Miliary Service

Is a really, really good way to lose this election.

[treestar]

138. Why didn't it lose the 2004 election for the rethugs?

[Overseas]

143. Technically, Republicans DID lose in 2004

Please check out UNCOUNTED, from Brave New Films... http://www.uncountedthemovie.com/order-the-dvd.html
It does an excellent job of cataloging what I was calling election stealing "by the dribs and drabs method" -- an assortment of techniques.

[thewiseguy]

116. John Kerry's military record was questioned and McCain is attacking Obama's lack of service

[L0oniX]

126. The only questions I have about him is ...how is fighting for our country related to...

stopping communist North Vietnam from taking over South Vietnam? Did we stop communism there? ..or anywhere? Why are we such good friends with communist China now? Why are we buying goods from a communist country at Walmart and Toys R Us? How do the Vietnam vets feel and think about that? Was it worth losing over 80,000 soldiers?

[Doctor_J]

133. No, but the hypocrisy of him supporting George Deserter Bush over Kerry should be

Kerry or Kerrey or Biden should smack him down over that, every day until he shuts up.

[treestar]

137. Why not, when they did it to Kerry?

I think all his claims should be examined with a fine tooth comb, for truthfulness at the very least.

And he should not be allowed to use it to gain any votes. And it is irrelevant. The Presidency is not a consolation prize.

After their shameful performance regarding Kerry there is no way the republicans deserve to take advantage of military service as a positive factor.

[27inCali]

141. I think if you asked anyone in the service

If being in the service somehow specially qualified someone as an expert on international affairs, they would probably immediately think of every dumbshit asshole they've ever had to deal with.
Every superior officer that didn't know their ass from their elbow but loved lording it over whoever was down the chain from them.

yeah, ask anyone in the service, they'll probably admit to a little expertise in the art of ass kickin, but that's probably just about it.

[izzybeans]

144. Just as it shouldn't be questioned, it should not be turned into some false mantel of experience.

[PoliticalAmazon]

145. ITA. Regardless of the reality of it, there is no profit in it. n/t

[JuniperLea]

147. This thread makes me ill...

The myths believed... the history forgotten... this is exactly why we are where we are today. We keep repeating the same stupid mistakes and we refuse to learn a damn thing.

All that said...

McCain's service and all the horrors to which he was subjected have brought him to where he is today. We are talking about "hiring" a man who will wield a hell of a lot of power in the world. Lives will hang in balance in his hands and on his words. McCain is plain worn out, mentally and physically. Without getting into grueling details, the man is just not fit. Period.

One cannot compromise on the truth without being hypocritical and disingenuous. One cannot compromise on the truth due to fear of what others will say without being hypocritical and disingenuous. One cannot embellish or detract from the truth without these things either. We have to ask ourselves what is more important. Shielding the ignorant minds of those who would speak ill of truth, or speaking truth. I choose to err, if it is to err, on the side of the latter.

[GoneOffShore]

148. He crashed 4 planes plus got shot down once

He graduated in the bottom five of his class at Annapolis (it's highly likely that he wouldn't have graduated at all without his father being an admiral).

His nickname was (and still is in my book) "Crash".


Hardcore Republican I know who is a Vietnam vet - Marine copter pilot - says it this way, "Shit, he ain't no he-ro, he fucked up and got caught!"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

149. Very telling.

You seem more interested in defending the honor of John McCain than Michelle Obama.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x4752#4758

[Lord Helmet]

150. riiiiight because the republicans were so honorable in 2004 with Kerry

not