The only argument I get from my IDIOT GOP friends is......

[KansasVoter]

Obama is a Tax and Spend liberal.

I am argued about the war and the economy and civil rights and corruption and it all comes back to their pocketbook and how Obama will raise taxes and increase spending on social programs. What a joke. Their prsonal welath is all that matters to them.

And these people are people who have NEVER had to worry about having enough money any month in their life. It is just about THEM.

Very disappointing.

[BeatleBoot]

1. Most people vote based on one or two issues

Taxes, Abortion, Security, etc.

This year won't be any different.

Obama has lot of work ahead.

[Labors of Hercules]

9. Actually, most people vote based on one issue:

What's in it for ME?

punto.

[bunkerbuster1]

26. Well, if you make under a quarter-mill a year, a lot.

Obama's proposals call for the long-coddled ruling class to finally start paying something resembling a fair share of the tax burden (and be ready to counter their pathetic "They already pay most of the taxes!" by pointing out that their tax burden is NOT commensurate with their wealth.)

By getting that sorry state of affairs righted, we'll have a shot at eventually balancing the budget and maybe even one day paying down the debt. That will make average Americans much more financially secure.

That last paragraph, isn't really even a matter of debate among economists. Everyone agrees that we're swimming in too much debt. And McCain's plan is far less responsible on that score than is Obama's.

[iamjoy]

2. Make It Simple

Don't get into tax policy, these people are very simple and tax policy is very complicated.

Ask them if they think things were better off in this country 100 years ago when we didn't have a progressive income tax. When we started having a progressive income tax and laws to protect labor, our middle class became strong. Following World War II when the income tax was highly graduated, our economy grew like crazy. When the middle class has more money, they spend more, stimulating the economy.

[KansasVoter]

3. Good points. I'll try it! (NT)

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

18. I have tried that argument

The response was, "Well, I don't think it was so bad back then." :wtf:

[Shakespeare]

33. One slight amendment. Don't say "when the middle class has more money."

Phrase it this way: "when the middle class get to keep more of their own money." That little nuance will get right to the heart of their fear of democrats and taxes. They think we're going to take the money and their guns, and that's what they need to be reassured about. Sad and simplistic, but true.

[SwampG8r]

36. dont say middle class

say WE get to keep our money

[Hippo_Tron]

44. That won't work either they think the Gilded Age was wonderful

Particularly the nutjobs who support Ron Paul.

[iamjoy]

47. Recommend This Book

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Old-Days-They-Were-Terrible/dp/0394709411

Not intended to be a political book at all, it is very enlightening.
(because if it were political, it could be construed as criticism of liberals talking about car pollution when horse crap was a far worse problem; or talk about how much the working class is being exploited now...)

[SpiralHawk]

4. Even if true (dubious) it's better than 'borrow-and-spend' republicons

Who have placed America into deep, deep, deep debt to the 'godless red commie chinese' for the next seven generations.

Thanks a pantload, borrow-and-spend' republicons...

[Sinistrous]

32. I like the phrase: "borrow and waste republicans".

[lojasmo]

5. We make six figures....

And we'll be getting a tax cut from Obama, though we neither want nor need it.

[gcomeau]

6. So show them this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6359885&mesg_id=6359885

Obama's cutting taxes more than McCain for EVERYONE except the highest 5% income bracket in the country. Unless they make more than 225 grand a year, they'll pay less taxes under Obama's plan than they will under McCain.

As for the spend part, which administration balanced the budget and which one has had multi hundred billion deficits year after year?

[glowing]

7. I have found that to be the case with people just above 45..closer to 50+..

they are soooo selfish. I've never thought about being so selfish in my entire life. I find it odd how so many define their lives by money. I personally think we will be better off when they die on out... they have a lot of hate... I heard this bitter old woman who kept refering to Arabic people as rag heads. I heard another say something about the young thinking they are entitled... and that we are the cause for the credit crunch and the jobs disapearing..

I don't get it.. My mom is kinda similar... she's tens over these bitter old women, but she has a take care of self and family first attitude.. not the world (and these were the people protesting vietnam and sporting "Free Love" banners?). I know it doesn't apply to all people, but there are quite a few of these bitter old boomers who really don't give a damn about the rest of this world. They want their cheap oil and cheap walmart crap. Most are going towards retirement or are entering it now, and they don't care about their neighbor, let alone this world. And this is why many, many times I question whether I want to fight for this country.. or whether I would rather move abroad... Its not easy to live amongst so much hate.

[rfranklin]

10. There is a built in imperative to protect one's own family...

and it takes a broader view of humanity to see the bigger picture. As the old saying goes, "blood is thicker than water."

[glowing]

21. Yes and no... it took an entire tribe to work together to feed itself and to

protect itself... Blood is thicker than water.. but you need community and a strong one at that to overcome the perils of life... "It takes a village..."

[fudge stripe cookays]

12. Unfortunately,

there were young Republicans then too. They just may not have been vocal about it until years later.

Unfortunately for us, not everybody went to Woodstock or protested the war. And some of those who did changed. But I think most who did kept their souls and consciences.

[glowing]

22. I suppose.. It just seemed odd to think that they expect for us to

work 2 or 3 jobs because they want to keep shopping at Walmart. It seems odd that they think young people are "keeping up with the Jones'".. Well, who taught them? AND now that they are older and this country isn't providing stable jobs or adequate pay, they are pissed that they have to reach into their purses to pull out money... Well.. there's the govt.. they are so mixed up in the head... Spin nation at its best.. and that's the fault of the media... they do not provide real information that is necessary to make an informed decision.

[SpiralHawk]

16. Phony right-wing meme...

No these were not the people protesting Vietnam and sporting Free Love banners.

That's just right-wing BS propaganda.

These were the Young Republicons of yesteryear...

The Free Love folk are still among us, growing pesticide-free food that uses no petrochemicals, from seed that has not been MUTANTLY perverted by vast greedhead republicon-dominated corporations (headed up by the Young Republicons of yesteryear - the fabled 60s).

[glowing]

24. I guess not.. I guess they just all moved to Florida... I've got to get out

of this state... 1. Fight for custody of step child. 2. apply for jobs out of this state 3. Hopefully sell the house. 4. smile as I leave this God-forsaken place that I should never have come to in the first place.

[RC]

8. Obama is no Liberal. He is a Centralist.

I'm thinking politically Obama would be somewhere around Eisenhower. But no matter, we have to get the criminials out of our government and honest people back in our Congress. Then we will start to see world peace.

[bunkerbuster1]

27. Well, a Centrist, anyway.

Centralist? Is that a guy who vacations in Costa Rica?

[fudge stripe cookays]

11. Ask them if they enjoy paying four times as much for gas, groceries...everything!

How is it possible for them to hate spending more on taxes when it's being made up by inflation?

Tell them our trillion dollar debt has caused our dollar to drop, therefore making it part of the reason why inflation has gotten so crazy. We have our trillion dollar debt because of Iraq.

Do any of these people have teenage sons? I always bring up Iraq with those folks. They seem to be in a bubble that says their sons won't be drafted. But if you have any ex Nam'ers in the mix, they may think twice since that happened to quite a few of them. They won't want a repeat.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

13. You may want to point out how much the Republicans are spending. $2.7 TRILLION on Iraq war alone

That's some mighty big spending there.

Then you might point out how our deficit is now at right under 9.5 trillion dollars. The reason for that being the Republicans have been BORROWING the majority of the money they've been spending.


The borrow and spend Republicans are destroying our economy and leaving a mountain of debt for our children to pay off.

[Sparkly]

14. It's amazing, isn't it?

Maybe we need a chart showing the amount spent on "social programs" (non Social Security) compared with the amount spent on the Iraq fiasco.

And "tax and spend" should be countered with "borrow and spend." Some people get it if you compare it with a credit card. We're maxing out our credit, and it does cost interest -- a waste of money! And who's going to pay for it ultimately?

It's hard to believe they'd be this irresponsible with their household money.

[AllentownJake]

15. Funny thing is

Unless they are making over 250,000 a year the GOP does nothing economically for them and even than the GOP hurts them by its borrowing practices which devalue the dollar and make the money they earn worth less.

Try that approach with them.

Also ask them to name a country or empire in History that cut taxes and fought to different wars on two different fronts.

[beezlebum]

17. i knew it before i clicked your op

ALL of my repub friends say the same thing. and the funny thing is bush did nothing to lower their lower middle class taxes, and when i've tried to explain over the last 8 years that those tax cuts were meant for rich people, and that we are paying for the trillion dollar occupation/oil theft and enabling record breaking profits for people who make money off of mass death and destruction, they ask me why i hate rich ppl so much?

oh, and the other equally rational argument i get is that obama's muslim and the anti-christ. my aunt sent me two emails this week explaining how muslims have been responsible for ALLLLlllll of the atrocities committed in america (and thusly the world) throughout history and this was to somehow prove that obama is the charismatic antichrist and oh yeah he's muslim too. i mean, a bunch of old white dudes (er, christians) didn't decide to invade a region and kill and maim hundreds of thousands, or millions of innocent people including children and call it collateral damage of spreadin demockracy, or relish the poverty of their unwitting slave workers while they make gozillions in record profits (the less we have, the more the 1% has) or deny healthcare to children who desperately need it and point to red herrings and scapegoats as the reasons "we can't afford" universal healthcare (but we can afford to spend trillions on death), and 9/11 was the only terrorist attack to have ever happened in the entire world ever and changed the entire world forever and everyone fucking knows that the us is the center of everybody's fucking world and and therefore it justifies every single fucking attempt invade and occupy and forget about how the us has overthrown democratically elected and peaceful governments and installed its own so-called enemies- nevermind that! and throughout history, christians haven't enslaved and impoverished and brutally murdered and raped different peoples and wiped out entire fucking civilizations and placed the survivors on "reservations" and move on to rape and steal their lands and agriculture and imperialise (terrorize) the americas and the islands and india etc etc etc. and so on and so on and so on and so on...

:rant:

sorry...i just had this argument yesterday evening...

[BlooInBloo]

19. People voting their own interests is at least reasonable, if ignoble.

[roseBudd]

20. Ask them what fallen bridges cost after they fall versus infrastructure spending

[fudge stripe cookays]

29. Another good point.

I tried that one, and they tell me that NO bidge or highway costs THAT much. ("No, 'staying the course' does, you asshole! Isn't that what you're always telling us?"

:eyes:

[futureliveshere]

23. Try this DU post. It should help when they see the comparison.

This is the distribution of the McC and BO tax cuts effects.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6359885

[against all enemies]

25. You must have very rich friends then. Ask them if they like spending

12 billion dollars a month for nothing and if they are getting their monies worth. McCain wants to keep spending it.

[HughBeaumont]

28. And McClown is a Borrow and Waste Conservative.

I say "Borrow and WASTE" because the word "spend" sometimes indicates a return on that spending.

Don't you just love taxophobes (which are, by and large, most Faux-news watching Americans)? I mean, Bewsh has come up with some huge damned mental dumps if you haven't noticed, but I don't think any are as massive as his incredulous notion of keeping his tax cuts PERMANENT, which McCain is strongly for. Obama will only raise taxes on those who NEED to have them raised (that is, the wealthy, who've been getting a free gravy train under Bewsh) while McCain once again lets the rich off the hook.

You know, I'm not getting where all of the believers of the Reagan/Bewsh rhetoric got it etched in their microscopic minds that having decades of lower and lower taxation and all of this printing of funny money in order to "stimulate the economy" would never lead to having a giant Bill of Stark Reality come due. Hate to break this to those people, but taxes ARE going to be raised. Taxes HAVE to be raised (and at the same time, the Iraq occupation has to end). Healthy economies don't and can't thrive on national debt figures that reach the exact negative number as what you're economy is worth. We're drowning in the interest alone on that debt. Republicans sold the public a moldy product of "tax relief", but all the while they worked behind the scenes with their handlers to shift all of the risk on US.

And they should ask themselves this: what GOOD have the lower taxes and supposed "higher salaries" (at least that's what they tell you . . . maybe in a few professions, but not many) brought you? Do you have better and affordable health care as a result (the answer to that one would be NO)? Have your schools improved (and I don't just mean the sports teams)? What about the roads and bridges and electrical grids? Are you seeing more effective police and fire departments? Instead, we have a corrupt government, rampant corporate welfare, corporate bailouts and a never-ending Vietraq that's in serious danger of spreading across the borders. Shouldn't you expect MORE for what you're paying?

[givemebackmycountry]

30. Tax and spend is so much better than....

MURDER AND STEAL.

[phrigndumass]

31. Counter with BORROW AND SPEND

With "tax and spend" ... Americans own what our government does.

With "borrow and spend" ... China and Saudi Arabia and OPEC owns what our government does.

We pay interest on what we borrow (more taxes). How is that responsible government?

:D

[SDJay]

34. I've had several similar discussions

with RW'ers, and it never gets past one request I make that has stopped them immediately in their forthcoming rant tracks every single time. "Please give me one aspect of our society - finances, the economy in general, international standing, civil liberties, religious freedom, whatever - that's been improved since 2000." I've posited that should-be-simple 'challenge' no less than 20 times now, and have yet to get any sort of tangible response. When I get the blank stare and silence/stammering, I ask them to then tell me how McSame's platform deviates from the platform that's been in place under our current regime. That pretty much wraps it up every time.

[SwampG8r]

35. iraq costs what?3 Billion a week?

now thats some tax and spend for you

[Danascot]

37. My Mother-in-Law drives me berserk

She's convinced the Democrats will raise taxes and waste money on social programs; that they can't be trusted to keep us safe from the terrorists; that Dumbya is wonderful but concedes he may have been given bad advice; and, unspoken, she'll never vote for an African-American for president.

Don't bother her with the facts, we're talking faith based politics here.

[Overseas]

38. John Sidney McCain III is a spend and pile up debt conservative

In true Republican tradition-- Spend, cut taxes and push the debts onto the kids. That's what they do. Rack up the debts and then Dems come in an clean things up. Clintons left a surplus, Bush II is leaving huge deficits. Cut taxes and push the debts onto the next president.

John Sidney McCain III and heiress wife Cindy have a credit card with $100,000 debt on it that has a zero interest rate. If we were special people, we could get one of those too, huh?

[vaberella]

39. Are they mad?! That is COMPLETELY contrary to the truth.

He's going to attack big business, those Corporations with money who are given tax breaks. Most of the poor are the ones who are taxed to oblivion. Secondly, he's putting money back into social programs and actually requesting transparency so that the American people can see where tax payer money goes.

[Bread and Circus]

40. It's very easy to counter people like that... first I start with questions...

in a non-confrontational tone:

Usually I start with "what does tax and spend mean". This usually forces them to starting thinking and develop a thought more than a soundbite. This is very disarming and gets them out of their emotional frame into a thinking frame.

Then I ask them "so, how exactly is he going to raise taxes and on whom?" This is the test of whether they know what they are talking about or not. Most haven't the faintest idea. This gives the opportunity to educate because you went from being put on your heels with a pat soundbite to having them on their heels because now you force them to be a grown up and deal with facts.

That's just a start. The point is to be cool and ask questions first and loosen them up. Get the conversation away from the emotional hot button "Republican Frames" and then start talking logic. This allows you to reframe the debate and win it.

Of course, it's extremely hard to change people's minds because once people pick a brand their allegiance to it is almost entirely emotional and irrational. However, it's a rewarding feeling to get some sense of a productive conversation with friends and family that might of otherwise been a shouting match devolving into character assassination and scandal muckraking.

One of the A-bombs I love to drop on people is to remind them that all the Industrialized countries with "socialized medicine" are far more efficient, cost less per capita (by almost half), and get as good of results. It shuts people up quite quickly.

Anyway, good luck.

[sufrommich]

41. As opposed to the spend and spend conservatives? nt

[ladjf]

42. How can that untrue, tired cliche' continue to con Republicans into

believing it?

[Vinca]

43. Ask them about the charge and spend Republicans who have

put us into eternal servitude to the Chinese. Would they rather pay the bills up front via taxes or let the interest add up and leave it their children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren?

[barack the house]

45. Just tell them America is like a car don't pay for maintannce it breaks down and you pay more later

Although Obama plans genuine tax cust for most working americans, it's only the high earners that will see a roll back.

[LordJFT]

46. better a tax and spend liberal than a borrow and spend conservative