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Wow! Gen. Clark levels McCain on "Morning Joe"

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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:18 AM
Original message
Wow! Gen. Clark levels McCain on "Morning Joe"
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=c5bYzL2y7xQ

What made me so happy was that this was one of the rare times that a liberal on TV said EXACTLY what I would've said if I were in his/her shoes. First, Clark deftly pointed out that having been a POW over 30 years ago does not give one automatic foreign policy credentials, and that McCain has never been in an executive position regarding military matters. Second, he skillfully pointed out that even though Obama doesn't have the military experience either, Obama is not the one pretending to the second coming of MacArthur. KO!
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Okay, I forgive Wes for endorsing Hillary
I would be totally happy with him as VP to neutralize the bullshit that McCain is some kind of Eisenhower, MacArthur, etc.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. No, he didn't.
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Rainbow gatherer Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. He did want to open fire and was stopped by the British.
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Is anyone else surprised?
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Woo hoo!
:)
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. That's the best you can do? Ad homineum attack? Clark DID...
want to open fire on Russian soldiers.

Clark is a freaking DISASTER waiting to happen if he gets near the Obama administration.

I know he's done one of his famous Wesley "Flipper" Clark flips again and now is smooching ass to Obama, but he would completely destroy OBama's chances to be elected in November.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I believe you are asserting a conclusion unsupported by real facts
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 02:27 PM by Tom Rinaldo
Show me how you establish that Clark wanted to open fire on Russian soldiers without using the circular arguments of other people asserting that same point without being able to back it up.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. See Post #29. In addition...

This article from the BBC also details the events, and backs up the interview with Robert Fisk, in which Fisk said that Clark commanded actions in Kosovo/Serbia that were "very close to war crimes." See Post #29 for excerpt of the Democracy Now! Fisk interview.

Clearly, Clark would be a disaster in Obama's administration. Indeed, I believe if Obama announced ahead of time that Clark would be in his administration, either as VP, a Cabinet position, or anything else, Obama would lose in November.

Not even loyal Obama supporters like me are going to vote for a candidate who has a man with Clark's dirty past, "very close to war crimes" being only ONE instance in his problematic past.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm

The Russians already occupied the airport, a surprise to Clark. Clark ordered the Brits to take the airport, which would involve firing on Russian soldiers. In this article, Clark is quoted as confirming he had the power to order it, and did so. It was only Brit Gen. Michael Jackson, who refused to "start World War III" for Clark by firing on Russian soldiers who kept us out of a complete disaster, putting Americans, at home and under Clark, at risk.

Thursday, 9 March, 2000, 14:14 GMT


"Confrontation over Pristina airport"

Nato was taken aback by the Russians' arrival

Details of Russia's surprise occupation of Pristina airport at the end of the Kosovo war are revealed in a new BBC documentary on the conflict.

For the first time, the key players in the tense confrontation between Nato and Russian troops talk about the stand-off which jeopardised the entire peacekeeping mission.


The Russians, who played a crucial role in persuading Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to end the war, had expected to police their own sector of Kosovo, independent of Nato.

When they did not get it, they felt double-crossed.

As Nato's K-For peacekeepers prepared to enter the province on 12 June, they discovered the Russians had got there first.

A contingent of 200 troops, stationed in Bosnia, was already rolling towards Pristina airport.

'Third World War'

General Wesley Clark, Nato's supreme commander, immediately ordered 500 British and French paratroopers to be put on standby to occupy the airport.

''I called the Secretary General and told him what the circumstances were,'' General Clark tells the BBC programme Moral Combat: Nato at War.

''He talked about what the risks were and what might happen if the Russian's got there first, and he said: 'Of course you have to get to the airport'.



General Jackson: Backed by UK Government

''I said: 'Do you consider I have the authority to do so?' He said: 'Of course you do, you have transfer of authority'.''

But General Clark's plan was blocked by General Sir Mike Jackson, K-For's British commander.

"I'm not going to start the Third World War for you," he reportedly told General Clark during one heated exchange.

General Jackson tells the BBC: ''We were a possibility....of confrontation with the Russian contingent which seemed to me probably not the right way to start off a relationship with Russians who were going to become part of my command.''

Russian plans

The Russian advance party took the airport unopposed. The world watched nervously.

A senior Russian officer, General Leonid Ivashev, tells the BBC how the Russians had plans to fly in thousands of troops.

''Let's just say that we had several airbases ready. We had battalions of paratroopers ready to leave within two hours,'' he said.

Amid fears that Russian aircraft were heading for Pristina, General Clark planned to order British tanks and armoured cars to block the runways to prevent any transport planes from landing.

General Clark said he believed it was ''an appropriate course of action''. But the plan was again vetoed by Britain....
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. You did not begin to establish your assertion with your quotes
The Russian contengency of 200 troops were heading toward the airport and Clark wanted to get a N.A.T.O. presence there first, via paratroopers, precisely to prevent the Russians from flying in thousands of troops after first seizing the airport. General Jackson, even in his own words which you just quoted, only went so far as to say he was concerned about the possibility of a confrontation with the Russians which would be a negative way to start out his command which was meant to put them under him.

I was in the audiance in NYC when Amy Goodman one on one interviewed General Clark live for her Democracy Now show in late January or early February. It was no holds barred and it was a warm, albeit tough interview. They were obviously mutually respectful toward each other, and videos of that session were available on her site. It was literally charming the way they related to each other, and it brought howls from some Clark haters that Goodman seemed so positive toward Clark.
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. I hope you're not talking to me
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 06:17 PM by Fighting Irish
Just a little jab at Rainbowchildbuttmunch there. I know he's full of shit.

I had that moran pegged yesterday. Typical sly freeper disruptor. But I've seen those same types of posts before. Obvious fake.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. and you are wrong. get a clue. w.r.o.n.g.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. No, YOU are wrong. See Posts #29 and #33.....
How well did you research Clark before you decided to support him?

Do you usually support people who committed "very close to war crimes" and atrocities against citizen noncombatants as VP candidates?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. I spent months defending Clark from assholes who repeat GOP smears LIKE YOU DO NOW
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Right wing bullshit. Yawn. reminds me of 2004.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Logical fallacy. Reply to allegations against Clark or admit you are wrong. n/t
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. that is the biggest pile of REPUBLICAN shit about Clark. I am fucking sick and tired of idiots
posting this.


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Rainbow gatherer Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thank goodness for British Ge. Sir Mike Jackson.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. How about looking up Sir Michael Jackson sometime?
Like how he referred to himself as the "Prince of Darkness", has a LOVELY record of actions in Ireland in relation to the IRA, and as a nice little cherry is generally considered something of a drama queen by the men he commanded and his fellow officers.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. The first reporting of Jackson shrieking about starting World War III
was in a passage found in a book that Wes Clark wrote. He was describing the ways in which tempers flared and senior officers sometimes disagreed in the military. He reported it himself precisely because it was not a monentous world on the brink of war moment, rather it showed how officers forcefully scored points with each other during showdowns. Jackson was quite willing to reach for the dramatic metaphor.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Do you have a link for this?
"is generally considered something of a drama queen by the men he commanded and his fellow officers"
I'd love to see it. Thanks!
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #57
75. Right here
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. oh yes, what a baggage he is. take your screed some place else.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Clark's heinous actions in Serbia/Kosovo
*****CLARK'S DISHONORABLE "VERY CLOSE TO WAR CRIMES" ACTIONS IN SERBIA/KOSOVO****

Her's an excerpt of Democracy Now!'s interview of Robert Fisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk) and Steve Rendell (Fair and Accuracy in Reporting)in which they discuss just ONE Clark's disasters. These are the issues covered (numbers added to the transcript are mine);

(1) Fisk says Clark wasn't very "antiwar" during his time in Serbia.

(2) NATO (under Clark's command) bombed a hospital, killing almost all of the patients.

(3) Clark bombed a series of bridges, and a train, even after they knew the train was on the bridge, they bombed the bridge again.;

(4) Clark claimed 100 Yugoslavian tanks were bombed. He lied. It was actually only 11.

(5) Clark ordered Brit General Michael Jackson to get to an airport first, ahead of Russian soldiers, so the U.S./Brits (and Clark) could get the credit of "liberatin" it. Gen. Jackson said he wasn't about to "start World War III."

(6) Under Clark's leadership, over and over again, sites that were bombed turned out to be illegitimate targets. When large numbers of citizens were killed, they either lied or were silenced.

(7) American aircraft (under Clark's command) bombed an Albanian refugee convoy. NATO claimed it was Serbs who did the bombs, but when Fisk and others investigated they found that the bombs had NATO markings on them. When confronted, NATO admitted it was NATO's bombing, but they were "confused." Later investigation by Fisk showed that NATO had continued to bomb the convoy for 35 minutes, even though there were civilian refugees there, because, mixed in with the civilians, were Serbian vehicles.

(8) NATO, under Clark's command, committed several very-close-to-war-crimes actions.

(9) Clark's praise of Bush/Blair's conspiracy to invade Iraq and the invasion of Ira.




Democracy Now! Transcript

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/9/18/robert_fisk_on_wesley_clark_iraq

AMY GOODMAN: Well, John Hlinko, we have just reached Robert Fisk in Baghdad. We want to thank you for being with us, cofounder of the DraftWesleyClark.com campaign. Zoltan Grossman, thanks for being with us from the University of Wisconsin.

We’re going not to the break right now, which we usually do, but because we have Robert Fisk on his satellite phone at this moment. we want to go directly to him.

Robert Fisk, we’ll get your comment at the beginning, hearing that Wesley Clark is now running for president as the antiwar warrior. Then we’d like to get your observations of what’s happening right now on the ground in Iraq.

(1) ROBERT FISK: I have to say first of all about General Clark, that I was on the ground in Serbia in Kosovo when he ran the war there. He didn’t seem to be very antiwar at the time. I had as one of my tasks to go out over and over again to look at the civilian casualties of that have war.

(2) At one point NATO bombed the hospital in which Yugoslav soldiers, against the rules of war, were hiding along with the patients and almost all the patients were killed.

This was the war, remember, where the first attack was made on a radio station, the Serb Radio and Television building. Since then we’ve had attacks twice on the Al Jazeera television station. First of all in Afghanistan in 2001, then killing their chief correspondent, and again in Baghdad, this year.

(3) This was a general who I remember bombed series of bridges, in one of which an aircraft bombed the train and after, he’d seen the train and had come to a stop, the pilot bombed the bridge again.

I saw one occasion when a plane came in, bombed a bridge over a river in Serbia proper, as we like to call it, and after about 12 minutes when rescuers arrived, a bridge too narrow even for tanks, bombed the rescuers.

(4) I remember General Clark telling us that more than 100 Yugoslav tanks had been destroyed in the weeks of that war. And when the war came to an end, we discovered number of Yugoslav tanks destroyed were 11. 100 indeed.

So this was not a man, frankly whom, if I were an American, would vote for, but not being an American, I don’t have to.

(5) AMY GOODMAN: Robert Fisk speaking to us in Iraq. And then you have the time that the British general, Michael Jackson, Wesley Clark had told him to get his British troops to the airport before the Russians got there, so it wouldn’t be perceived that the Russians were liberating and General Michael Jackson responded to him, ’I’m not going to start World War III’.

ROBERT FISK: Yes. Jackson did indeed say that. One member of Jackson’s staff confirmed to me that the quote is true. I think the words--I think the verb is wrong, but World War III is correct.

(6) It was a very strange atmosphere to that war, over and over again when NATO has bombed the target, it was clearly illegitimate. Or when they killed large number of civilians, they were either silenced, or they lied.

(7) We had the very famous occasion, infamous occasion when American aircraft bombed an Albanian refugee convoy in Kosovo, claimed later or NATO claimed later it was probably Serb aircraft. It was only when we got there and found the NATO markings on the bomb, that NATO fessed up admitted that they had done it themselves and had been confused.

When I went to the scene months later and tracked down the survivors, it turned out that although they were confused, NATO aircraft had gone on bombing that convoy for 35 minutes even though there were civilians there, because mixed in among them, most cruelly, this was an act of Milosevic’s regime, were military vehicles as well.

(8) We shouldn’t be romantic about the Serb military or the Serb security police they were killers and murderers. But NATO, in its war against the Serbs, committed a number of acts which I think are very close to war crimes, and General Clark was the commander. So this is a man who wants to be the president, democratic president of the United States of America. Well I don’t interest myself in what he thinks about the last war in Iraq. I watched it first hand and had my own opinions. But I sure as hell know what it was like to be under the bombs of his war in Serbia.

AMY GOODMAN: Robert Fisk, I want to ask you about General Powell’s visit, Secretary of State General Powell’s visit to Baghdad. But we still have Steve Rendall in the studio who is leaving in one minute as we listen to this description of what’s happening in Iraq. We were wrapping up the discussion of Wesley Clark whether or not he was for this war. Your final comments, Steve?

STEVE RENDALL: I’d like to just say that politicians would like to be all things to all people. Our problem is not with Wesley Clark’s campaign, it’s with the media’s portrayal of him.

(9) One point I’d like to say, your listeners should go look at the daily column that Clark wrote for the Times of London, right around the time of the fall of Baghdad. He wrote there, for instance, the day after the fall of Baghdad he wrote “Liberation is at hand. Liberation, the powerful bomb that justifies painful sacrifices, erases lingering doubts and reinforces bold actions.” He also wrote that George W. Bush and prime minister Tony Blair “should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt”.

This is the day after, this is on April 10, the day after the so called fall of Baghdad. He was cheering this event, and it’s very hard for us to see reporters casting him as antiwar candidate.


....AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank I very much, Robert Fisk for being with us. Robert Fisk is correspondent for the Independent newspaper based in Beirut right now in Iraq. returning as he has so many times.

Thank you for joining us. You are listening to Democracy Now!

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/9/18/robert_fisk_on_wesley_clark_iraq


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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #29
78. You must be going for a record- "MOST DEM TRASHING POSTS IN 3 MONTHS!" YEAH!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. US Helped Stop Genocide in the Balkans
However our involvement in Iraq promotes genocide
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. this has been debunked. nice try.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Debunked, perhaps, but by liars. See Post #29. n/t
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Clearly a freeper troll. Wes has got y'all all a-skeered, eh? n/t
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. No "freeper troll," except the Clark toadies. Post #29. n/t
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Oh gawd not this crap again.
:eyes:
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. Guess you don't know that British Gen. Michael Jackson
has said that the coverage of what he allegedly said was "blown far out of proportion."

In other words, he didn't prevent Clark from doing anything and the discussions were limited to tactical positions - and not to anything done on the field of battle.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
77. Clark is Russian.
from Russian heritage anyway.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. Can you forgive him for his "very close to war crimes" actions in Serbia/Kosovo? #29 n/t
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Yes - since they weren't at all close to any war crimes.
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 03:19 PM by Clark2008
See Posts 1-1000010001001 from Primary Election Season 2004.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Ahh--you know more than Robert Fisk.....
How about bombing civilians? Civilians in a hospital? A train carrying civilians?

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I suppose you think that innocent people die in Wars and so they should be avoided
if at all possible. Wes Clark beat you to that long ago.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. You are disingenuous to try to portray knowlingly targeting civilians...
as the same as the unintended deaths of civilians during war activities.

Here's a hint: What Clark did is a war crime. That would be the "knowingly targeting civilians."

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Here is a hint
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 04:38 PM by Tom Rinaldo
The United Nations investigated the actions of NATO in Kosovo and found that no war crimes were committed. That was an internationally recognized legal finding, unlike your repeated "claims" that Clark committed war crimes.

You do know who did get formally charged with International War crimes in Bosnia and Kosovo don't you? Serbia's Milosovic, the murderous dictator who Wesley Clark helped stop.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Let's see...NATO investigated itself and found itself was innocent....
Pardon, but is not targeting civilian noncombatants considered a war crime? How about bombing a hospital, killing almost all the patients?

I also believe Milosovic committed war crimes, and I'm glad he was prosecuted for them.

Now here's a hint to you: Who would benefit from Obama being saddled with someone like Clark? How do you think it would work for voters if this exchange occurred:

GOP: Clark bombed innocent civilians, including a hospital, when he knew there were civilian noncombatants there. He also bombed, for 35 minutes, an Albania refugee convoy. THis occurred when he was the commander of the NATO forces.

OBAMA CAMPAIGN: Well, Clark wasn't charged with war crimes by Nato, but Milosovic who also bombed innocent civilians, was and was convicted.

GOP: NATO found itself innocent, and hung it all on Milosovic. Poor NATO! They had to cover for Clark to protect their own interests and reputation.

OBAMA CAMPAIGN: ....?

I don't know why anyone would want to risk Obama's campaign and his political future for a baggage-laden General Wesley Clark, but I don't think they have the best interests of Obama, or our country in mind.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Sorry, you have your facts wrong. Not NATO investigating NATO...
The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) operating under the authority of the United Nations:


"Final Report to the Prosecutor by the Committee Established to Review the NATO Bombing Campaign Against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

Table of Contents

I Background and Mandate
II Review Criteria
III Work Program
IV Assessment

General Issues
Damage to the Environment
Use of Depleted Uranium Projectiles
Use of Cluster Bombs
Legal Issues Related to Target Selection
Overview of Applicable Law
Linkage Between Law Concerning Recourse to Force and Law Concerning How Force May Be Used
The Military Objective
The Principle of Proportionality
Casualty Figures
General Assessment of the Bombing Campaign
Specific Incidents
The Attack on a Civilian Passenger Train at the Grdelica Gorge on 12/4/99
The Attack on the Djakovica Convoy on 14/4/99
The Attack on the RTS (Serbian Radio and TV Station) in Belgrade on 23/4/99
The Attack on the Chinese Embassyon 7/5/99
The Attack on Korisa Village on 13/5/99
Recommendations



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I Background and Mandate

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) conducted a bombing campaign against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) from 24 March 1999 to 9 June 1999. During and since that period, the Prosecutor has received numerous requests that she investigate allegations that senior political and military figures from NATO countries committed serious violations of international humanitarian law during the campaign, and that she prepares indictments pursuant to Article 18(1) & (4) of the Statute.
Criticism of the NATO bombing campaign has included allegations of varying weight: a) that, as the resort to force was illegal, all NATO actions were illegal, and b) that the NATO forces deliberately attacked civilian infrastructure targets (and that such attacks were unlawful), deliberately or recklessly attacked the civilian population, and deliberately or recklessly caused excessive civilian casualties in disregard of the rule of proportionality by trying to fight a "zero casualty" war for their own side. Allegations concerning the "zero casualty" war involve suggestions that, for example, NATO aircraft operated at heights which enabled them to avoid attack by Yugoslav defences and, consequently, made it impossible for them to properly distinguish between military or civilian objects on the ground. Certain allegations went so far as to accuse NATO of crimes against humanity and genocide.
Article 18 of the Tribunal’s Statute provides:
"The Prosecutor shall initiate investigations ex officio or on the basis of information obtained from any source, particularly from Governments, United Nations organs, intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations. The Prosecutor shall assess the information received or obtained and decide whether there is sufficient basis to proceed".

On 14 May 99 the then Prosecutor established a committee to assess the allegations and material accompanying them, and advise the Prosecutor and Deputy Prosecutor whether or not there is a sufficient basis to proceed with an investigation into some or all the allegations or into other incidents related to the NATO bombing....


...V Recommendations

90. The committee has conducted its review relying essentially upon public documents, including statements made by NATO and NATO countries at press conferences and public documents produced by the FRY. It has tended to assume that the NATO and NATO countries’ press statements are generally reliable and that explanations have been honestly given. The committee must note, however, that when the OTP requested NATO to answer specific questions about specific incidents, the NATO reply was couched in general terms and failed to address the specific incidents. The committee has not spoken to those involved in directing or carrying out the bombing campaign. The committee has also assigned substantial weight to the factual assertions made by Human Rights Watch as its investigators did spend a limited amount of time on the ground in the FRY. Further, the committee has noted that Human Rights Watch found the two volume compilation of the FRY Ministry of Foreign Affairs entitled NATO Crimes in Yugoslavia generally reliable and the committee has tended to rely on the casualty figures for specific incidents in this compilation. If one accepts the figures in this compilation of approximately 495 civilians killed and 820 civilians wounded in documented instances, there is simply no evidence of the necessary crime base for charges of genocide or crimes against humanity. Further, in the particular incidents reviewed by the committee with particular care (see paras. 9, and 48-76) the committee has not assessed any particular incidents as justifying the commencement of an investigation by the OTP. NATO has admitted that mistakes did occur during the bombing campaign; errors of judgment may also have occurred. Selection of certain objectives for attack may be subject to legal debate. On the basis of the information reviewed, however, the committee is of the opinion that neither an in-depth investigation related to the bombing campaign as a whole nor investigations related to specific incidents are justified. In all cases, either the law is not sufficiently clear or investigations are unlikely to result in the acquisition of sufficient evidence to substantiate charges against high level accused or against lower accused for particularly heinous offences.

91. On the basis of information available, the committee recommends that no investigation be commenced by the OTP in relation to the NATO bombing campaign or incidents occurring during the campaign.
http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #43
79. lol.
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AmericanUnity Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. GREAT!
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. On the money.
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. What really got me annoyed was...
how Diva Mika and Mike "plagerised" Barnicle kept chanting, "You can't say this about a war hero".
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. That annoys
the HELL outta me too. I just dont get the war hero worship of McSame.


www.wearableartnow.com
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. If they had added one word, they would have spoken the truth.
"You can't say this about a republican war hero."

The media didn't mind dissing democratic war hero, John Kerry, in '04.

Fucking assholes. :grr:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. General Clark is a Liberal?
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. One of the only true liberals who ran in 2004
If you ever checked out his policy papers during that election, you'd see that he is a liberal. Also, he got on national television (Mahar's show) and SAID, "I am a liberal," something others seem to have trouble doing.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. good to know
about time politicians and others start proclaiming they are liberals and not shirking from it. Never really understood that political move to counter the corporate media BS about liberals.
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Yes, "Liberal" is the real "L-word" .
It's amazing the gyrations politicians, and voters too, to through to avoid saying they are one. Myself, I feel a bit badly that I am not quite liberal enough. But I'm working on it.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. Horseshit. Clark is an opportunist who flips at the drop of a hat....
He was affiliated Republican before he left the military, then smooched ass to the Bushes, was rejected by the Republicans, so decided to flip to Democrat to run in 2004.

Now he's flipped again to support Obama.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. A person who will commit "very close to war crimes" and atrocities against civilian noncombatants will stop at nothing to prosper himself.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Crickets? No response to info about Clark's atrocities in Serbia/Kosovo? n/t
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Piss off
We dealt with all this in '04, we know that it is BS that was blown out of proportion.

By the way, how about we talk about Milosevic's REAL atrocities in Kosovo, you know the ones that Gen. Clark fought to STOP?
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
61. The GOP thought they'd dealt with Bush's National Guard scandal, too...
but all they'd done was intimidate others to stop reporting it.

It's still there, because it's still the truth. Clark is carrying some mighty big baggage, and I question the motives of those who want to saddle Obama with Clark and his baggage.

Here's John McCain, a perceived war hero, and here's Obama's VP, Clark, a wannabe war hero whose actions in Kosovo make him a nightmare for Obama. Tell me, just who does this benefit? Obama? No. The GOP? YES.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. Nice dodge
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 06:50 PM by knight_of_the_star
Nice try, but how about we look at the guy you're defending, you know the one with the blood of many hundred times more than Clark who Clark fought to put a stop to?

Stop putting out BS smears that are long debunked against a proven loyal Democrat.

Oh and here's the article on your hero General Sir Michael Jackson:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/kosovo/369068.stm

And his role in the Bloody Sunday massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Here you go
A lot of DUers are familiar with Frenchie Cat's postings; here are a few things gathered from a personal blog she ran. I have lots of links on this stuff also and at some point maybe we will all go through reliving the 2004 primary wars regarding Kosovo again if you insist. War is never precise, that is where the expression "the fog of war" came from, but I am proud of what NATO did to prevent genocide in Kosovs, even though a slew of Milosovic apologist Serbian nationalists have made an industry out of turning out propaganda to attack NATO's intervention to stop that right wing strongmans murderous goal of ethnic cleansing and "Greater Serbia":

This is all taken from Frenchie's old blog, RAPID FIRE - Silver Bullets.
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/nato_commander_19972000/


KOSOVO & Wes Clark as NATO Commander 1997-2000 Archives
October 1, 2006
SHORT HISTORIES ON THE BOSNIAN & THE KOSOVO CONFLICT
The Bosnia War occurred prior to the Kosovo War. U.S. Troups, via NATO were more involved in the latter than the former. The Bosnian Conflict(a civil war), were approximately 200,000 were killed, was ended via the Dayton Peace Accords of 1995. Holbrook and Wes Clark were instrumental in writing up the treaty.


Continue reading "SHORT HISTORIES ON THE BOSNIAN & THE KOSOVO CONFLICT" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on October 1, 2006 10:59 PM | Permalink

October 2, 2006
THE EARLY DEPARTURE
Elizabeth Drew
New York Book Review
Clark has been open about the fact that he was hurt when his command was cut short. He offered clues about why he was treated so badly in his first book, Waging Modern War: Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Future of Combat, published in 2001, and recollections of highly placed civilians in the Clinton administration confirm what he wrote. Clark displeased the defense secretary, Bill Cohen, and General Hugh Shelton, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, by arguing strenuously that—contrary to Clinton's decision— the option of using ground troops in Kosovo should remain open. But the problem seems to have gone further back. Some top military leaders objected to the idea of the US military fighting a war for humanitarian reasons. (Clark had also favored military action against the genocide in Rwanda).

According to three former Clinton aides, when Clinton approved the list of appointments submitted to him by Cohen, including the selection of General Joseph W. Ralston as the new commander of the NATO forces, it wasn't made clear to the President that this would cut Clark's term as the supreme commander by nearly three months. (Of this, Clinton later said at a press conference in Europe, "I had nothing to do with it.") Despite having been treated badly, Clark continued to serve for the following nine months. Clinton was reportedly furious when he realized the mistake that had been made, but he didn't want to go back on it lest he look indecisive, or further alienate military officials, with whom he had been on bad terms since the beginning of his presidency.

To make sure that Clark's dismissal was a fait accompli, the Pentagon immediately leaked the news that he had been fired, thus denying him the dignity of being allowed to announce his own retirement. Several members of the Clinton administration believe that Clark was treated in an extremely unfair, even cruel, manner. This treatment continues. Cohen, who had originally declined to comment, said on CNN on October 15 that "there was friction between General Clark and myself. And, frankly, I think it would be inappropriate for me to comment on his political aspirations. I made a judgment during the time that he was serving as head of NATO, SACEUR. And I felt that the ax, as such, when it fell, spoke for itself."
snip

Clark's conduct of the Kosovo war, and his earlier participation as the US military negotiator in the meetings in Dayton following the war in Bosnia, earned him the admiration of several of the civilians he had worked with. Strobe Talbott, then the deputy secretary of state, reminded me recently that Clark is, after all, the only Supreme Allied Commander of NATO who actually had to fight a war, "and it ended in victory." Talbott told me that he found Clark to be "extraordinarily determined and able, and open to working with diplomats and civilians, US and foreign." Talbott pointed out that Clark, in commanding the Kosovo war, had had to deal daily with nineteen nations.


THE UNAPPRECIATED GENERAL


Clark's problem was that he was a great general but not always a perfect soldier--at least when it came to saluting and saying, "Yes, sir." In fact, when he got orders he didn't like, he said so and pushed to change them.

Continue reading "THE EARLY DEPARTURE" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on October 2, 2006 11:33 PM | Permalink

October 13, 2006
Smear Debunked - "Clark would have started WWIII"
Here are a few of views of the Gen Clark/Gen Jackson hyperbole smear that originally stemmed from British Gen. Jackson’s comments that Clark wanted Jackson to start WWIII, a story which was originally reported by Gen. Clark in his book Waging Modern Wars. In addition, I include a few articles and their links on who General Michael Jackson is; quite a character who was later removed from his command of K-For control due to his insubordination.

And note the fact that Gen. Jackson’s insubordination encouraged President Putin invading Chechnya--


Continue reading "Smear Debunked - "Clark would have started WWIII"" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on October 13, 2006 9:32 PM | Permalink

November 27, 2006
"Boots on the Ground" not High Altitude Bombing in Kosovo was favored by Clark!
The Unappreciated General International Herald Tribune The General Who Did Too Good a Job By Patrick B. Pexton Tuesday, May 2, 2000; Page A23 http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51403-2000May1 He ordered 50 Apache attack helicopters to take the battle to the Serb ground troops, only to see the force reduced in size and then left to sit in Albania while the White House and Pentagon fretted about casualties. Clark also was right about readying troops for an invasion. The preparations for a ground war helped persuade Milosevic to surrender.
Elizabeth Drew
New York Book Review


Clark displeased the defense secretary, Bill Cohen, and General Hugh Shelton, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, by arguing strenuously that—contrary to Clinton's decision— the option of using ground troops in Kosovo should remain open. But the problem seems to have gone further back. Some top military leaders objected to the idea of the US military fighting a war for humanitarian reasons. (Clark had also favored military action against the genocide in Rwanda.)

Clark's view on Kosovo, shared by Tony Blair and other European leaders, was that Clinton, by stating that ground troops would not be used there —a position Clinton took for domestic political reasons—gave the Serbs a military advantage. Similarly, Clark wasn't allowed to use helicopter gunships for fear that they might be shot down, despite the fact that the helicopters didn't need to fly over Kosovo itself and the helicopters' missiles could have been more precise in hitting targets than bombers flying at 15,000 feet.

The argument over whether there should be even contingency planning for the use of NATO ground troops in Kosovo (at the time, it appeared that they would have to fight their way in) caused a serious clash between Clinton and Blair, particularly when they met in April 1999 at the White House residence on the eve of a NATO summit.

A close Clinton associate has told me that "to this day" Clinton regrets that he removed the option of ground troops.

Clark's conduct of the Kosovo war, and his earlier participation as the US military negotiator in the meetings in Dayton following the war in Bosnia, earned him the admiration of several of the civilians he had worked with. Strobe Talbott, then the deputy secretary of state, reminded me recently that Clark is, after all, the only Supreme Allied Commander of NATO who actually had to fight a war, "and it ended in victory." Talbott told me that he found Clark to be "extraordinarily determined and able, and open to working with diplomats and civilians, US and foreign." Talbott pointed out that Clark, in commanding the Kosovo war, had had to deal daily with nineteen nations.

Berger, who has not endorsed any of the presidential candidates, also speaks highly of Clark. Richard Holbrooke, under whom Clark served at the Dayton negotiations, is a friend of Clark's and supports his candidacy. Michael Gordon, the Times's able military reporter, who covered the Kosovo war, wrote of Clark in early October that "while NATO's military campaign was not perfect by any means...the general's judgment of... critical issues seems pretty solid when viewed in perspective; a humanitarian wrong was righted and NATO won its first and only war."
—October 22, 2003


Continue reading ""Boots on the Ground" not High Altitude Bombing in Kosovo was favored by Clark!" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on November 27, 2006 11:11 PM | Permalink

December 27, 2006
Kosovo was "about" Genocide, not oil or anything else "nefarious"
the potential results of the Genocide that might have been (cause i've seen them before), the fact that it was stopped and the undeniable truth that people's lives were saved, albeit, not every single last one of them.

Some only see the bombing and believe that there should have been a better way, although we don't know what that way would have been, as we can only guess, because we also don't have an outcome to discuss that actually occurred.

In the end, I am a realist who looks at the end results of that intervention understanding that not intervening would have been worse, and I am glad that it turned out as it did....understanding that perfect is usually not possible in the case of forced intervention and war.

It is true that some on the left are Idealists who looks at the end results feeling that it could have been done better doing something else, something that one cannot be certain as to the results because it never happened, but still feel compeled to criticize known results.

Wes Clark is a great man, and is a great General, not a perfect man nor a perfect General. that's my opinion based on my research.
Some may have forgotten about the 200,000 dead Bosnians prior to Kosovo, as well as the 800,000 dead Rwandans.....something Clark never did forget...and therefor felt that the Kosovo mission was urgent.

Clark says it better here:


"If we have learned but one thing in the tragic breakup of the old Yugoslavia, it is the need to act early and robustly in a crisis. The United States, as the leading power in NATO, should know this best of all. In 1991 America stood by as the United Nations and many European nations tried unsuccessfully to cope with devastating war in the Balkans. Some 200,000 casualties and 2 million people made homeless, capped with the gruesome massacre of more than 5,000 Muslims at Srebrenica, finally pushed the United States and NATO into action. In 1995, when the United States pledged to commit American troops to enforce peace alongside European allies, we brought the hostilities to an end.

In 1999, as ethnic cleansing grew in Kosovo, NATO backed up unsuccessful diplomacy with Operation Allied Force, which reversed the Serb violence and ultimately led to Slobodan Milosevic's being removed from power and delivered to The Hague in June for prosecution. --

Wesley Clark OPEd
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2164&l=1

Continue reading "Kosovo was "about" Genocide, not oil or anything else "nefarious"" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on December 27, 2006 11:28 PM | Permalink

January 10, 2007
General Brass on Wes! But what about the Shelton Smear?...Well that was "Just Politics"...doh!
During the last presidential Democratic Primary, there was what I would term a "swiftboat whisper campaign" that began as soon as General Clark, the most decorated officer since Eisenhower, decided to enter the presidential race. Whisper campaigns are what members of the GOP do best (see Bush vs. McCain, Bush vs. Kerry. Allen vs. Webb), in particular to anyone who threatens their monopoly on National Defense or their political well being and in most cases if there is little else in harmful "noise" at hand.

The attempted swiftboating campaign revolved around the unsubstantiated opinion of one General Hugh Shelton who uttered a smear against General Clark when asked if he would vote for the man. Gen. Shelton, a Republican, who just happened to have been the military advisor for John Edwards, another Democratic candidate who was running at the time, responded by attacking Wes Clark's integrity and character but conveniently left out the fact that it was he, Shelton, who had played a major role in Clark's early retirement in 2000.

John Edwards was queried in writing by the Clark campaign as to why he would directly associate with someone speaking nonsubstantiated smears against one of his Democratic challengers yet call himself a "positive" campaigner? "By associating with General Shelton on this campaign, you seem to have given in to the negative politics that you say you have risen above," Clark's Communications Director wrote to John Edwards.....to which John Edwards snootily replied without really addressing the issue of the smear; "Whatever your personal views on General Shelton, I'm sure you agree that he is a respected military leader who served our country with distinction".

Although Shelton never publicly elaborated further than his initial statement, low and behold, our Corporate press didn't "bother" to request further clarification from Shelton, , but instead went on the hunt, armed with the smear, to locate co-operating opinions from the rest of the military brass. As hard as "they" tried, "they" couldn't find any other high ranking generals to back up Shelton's comments, and "they" had to dig deep to find a few who had never worked with the General, but had "heard" of him. In fact, what the press found was that many of the General's cohorts held and hold the General in High opinion.

General Colin Powell on CNN - 9/28/03: "I've known Wes Clark for 20 years. He's one of the most gifted soldiers that I have ever had work for me. And beyond that, I really feel it's appropriate for me to recuse myself from any further comment now that he is a political candidate."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0309/28/le.00.html

The Late Col. David Hackworth who initially pinned the "Perfumed Prince" tag on Clark, but later recanted commented on the whispers...."No big surprise, since he graduated first in his class from West Point , which puts him in the super-smart set with Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur and Maxwell Taylor."
'All this book leanin' is unbecoming for an officer. The yankees got all the smart ones, and look where it got them."
http://www.command-post.org/oped/2_archives/008539.html

General McCaffrey:
"(He-Clark) is probably the most intelligent officer I ever served with," McCaffrey said. "(He has) great integrity, sound judgment and great kindness in dealing with people. He is a public servant of exceptional character and skill."
http://www.projo.com/extra/2003/candidates/content/projo_20030921_wpclark.6873b.html
McCaffrey told the Washington Post: "This is no insult to army culture ... but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1044293,00.html
"I have watched him at close range for 35 years, in which I have looked at the allegation, and I found it totally unsupported," said retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who taught with Clark at West Point in the 1970s. "That's not to say he isn't ambitious and quick. He is probably among the top five most talented I've met in my life. I think he is a national treasure who has a lot to offer the country."
McCaffrey acknowledges that Clark was not the most popular four-star general among the Army leadership. "This is no insult to Army culture, a culture I love and admire," McCaffrey said, "but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good-looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture. He was not one of the good old boys."
http://www.projo.com/extra/2003/candidates/content/projo_20030921_wpclark.6873b.html


Continue reading "General Brass on Wes! But what about the Shelton Smear?...Well that was "Just Politics"...doh!" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on January 10, 2007 9:25 PM | Permalink

January 14, 2007
HERO - What Feat Qualifies one for that Title? PART ONE of a Series-
In this day and age being heralded as an everyday plain ol’ ordinary Superstar Hero is a “mixed” bag, at best. In particular if it is the media that’s doing the heralding. One only has to recall the initial stories on Iraq Hero Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch and Afghanistan/football Hero Pat Tillman . The hero status given to these two young people was somewhat reworked by the facts and their initially reported heroics were long ago toned down; for Lynch, because the original heroic notion didn’t stand the test of the facts , and for Tillman, because what made him an hero became overshadowed by a possible cover up with his death while serving in Afghanistan. We should remember that Pat Tillman’s earned hero status because he freely chose to join the Armed Forces although he could have earned star status as a pro on a football field and gotten big bucks instead. However, disputed controversies does not a Hero make, and Pat Tillman heroic act was layed to rest as to not bring attention to nefarious governmental actions. In any case, it cannot be disputed that for different reasons, both Lynch's and Tillman's “hero” status were repackaged to simply --Two young brave people no longer talked about as the paragon of glorified hero-hood.

The media currently has three high profiled “heroes” that they showcase consistently. Coincidently these “heroes” just all happen to be rumored or confirmed candidates in the quickly approaching 2008 presidential race. All have had the hero label surgically implanted by the corporate media as though it is part of their names; POW War Hero Sen. John McCain , 9/11 NY Mayor Hero Rudi Giuliani , and Common/Poor Man’s Hero John Edwards who's legendary feat in the name of poverty are still "a work in progress".

These notables' are fortunate that the media is heralding them as "special", but my questions is, are they really heroes, or are they just wearing the label gifted them by the media or bolder still, that they have crafted themselves?

I’m one who looks beyond the labels to the facts surrounding the pronouncements and since Hero Rudi’s profile in courage has come under scrutiny as of late , I”m wondering how much longer he will be allowed to keep his title?

In reference to McCain, I believe that his profile in courage as a POW has been questioned for many years, althought the media has yet questioned their gift to him. There are those souls who would prefer to simply calling John McCain a “survivor” rather than a Hero.

In terms of concrete actions for the poor, prior to his 4 years run for the presidency, I can’t locate anything in John Edwards' 6 years legislative record worth mentioning in reference to the direct issue of his assisting the poor. Certainly Edwards’ has made many laudable statements in reference to poverty since late 2003, and effectively gained himself a short lived gig at a poverty center as proof which isn’t a bad thing, but Heroics are based on much more than what comes out of someone’s mouth when they speak, or situations created after the fact of making their grand aspirations known. Heroes are about action; actions performed while incurring personal risk. In the three men I have listed and who have been lauded as heroes, I find no such documented chosen risks.

In fact, what exactly is a Hero defined, and what does the word really mean?


he·ro (hîr'ōo) Pronunciation Key , n. pl. he·roes
1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.
4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.
5. Chiefly New York City See submarine. See Regional Note at submarine.

I personally choose the number 2 definition of the meaning; “A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of p urpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life”.....and I would add one additional phrase.... and sacrificed personal comfort. In searching for profiles of heroes, I find a couple, but not the ones heralded and labeled so by the media.

John Kerry really was a bonafide hero of presidential timber, from all that I see. Not so much for his (now controversial and unfairly disputed) stunt in the military as so much what he did when he returned from serving his country. John Kerry took risk, layed aside personal comfort, and testified and agitated against a controversial war in 1971. That was 35 years ago, but John Kerry is still a hero specifically for this act, to this day. Certainly if the John Kerry that was so ready to sacrifice himself for a cause he believed in had manifested in a forceful form in 2004, John Kerry should and could have been president...which goes to confirm my suspicion of the media; one who was hero yesterday, may not be tomorrow's.

A personal favorite hero of mine is Gen. Wesley Clark. His is a story that repeats Hero several time over a life span. Certainly Clark was a Hero based on his Vietnam valor, having been shot 4 times and still managing to lead his platoon to safety.

So what has Wes Clark done to deserve my Hero label? Well, there are several things, which is why this is a multiple part series. I'll start with this story here written up in an Esquire article, based on Richard Holbrook’s book, “To End a War”.


Continue reading "HERO - What Feat Qualifies one for that Title? PART ONE of a Series-" »

Posted by Catherine Mc on January 14, 2007 4:29 PM | Permalink

January 17, 2007
The New Yorker's "General Clark's Battles"- Author Peter Boyers deliberately set out to get Clark
The article, "General Clark's Battles" was a negative read to those who read it at a crucial time, as the 2004 Primaries were warming up. As it was published in the "respectable" New Yorker Magazine, many liberals who subscribed to the monthly received this article on General Clark via the mail.

The problem with the article is not only did it provide false information on Wes Clark's battles with the Pentagon during the War in Kosovo, but as importantly, the views espoused in the story were blatantly biased and one sided. The truth was that the author was shown to have a clear agenda against the General.

There were quite a few questions posed to Mr. Boyers by other (more) respectable authors, but he never bothered to answer:

First from Fred Kaplan over at Slate:


Defending the General
The New Yorker's unfair slam on Wes Clark and his role in the Kosovo war.By Fred Kaplan
Posted Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003, at 7:13 PM ET
snip
Kosovo was the United States' first post-Cold War experiment in "humanitarian intervention." Clark, who was the U.S. Supreme Allied Commander in Europe (and who, before that, had been a military aide in the Dayton negotiations over Bosnia), supported going to war in order to protect the Kosovars from the savagery of Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic. Secretary of Defense William Cohen and the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff, who had no taste for interventions of practically any sort, opposed it. That much, Boyer has right. But much else, he does not.
more


Then Matthew Yglesias writing in the Prospect also stepped in....

Boyer Plate Who is New Yorker staff writer Peter Boyer -- and why is he after Wesley Clark? By Matthew Yglesias Web Exclusive: 11.14.03
This week's New Yorker contains a profile of Wesley Clark with a striking thesis -- that the general's "military career, the justification for his candidacy, may also be a liability."
snip
Boyer appears to have made something of a career for himself as a conservative interloper at otherwise liberal media outlets. Back in 1992, his sympathetic profile of Rush Limbaugh for Vanity Fair drew praise from the conservative Media Research Center as being "fair." In 1997, as a Frontline correspondent, Boyer promoted one of the more obscure "scandals" of the Clinton years in a show (titled "The Fixers") based around an allegation that Commerce Secretary Ron Brown had been involved in a complicated scheme to convince a Hawaiian couple to buy an Oklahoma natural gas company. An independent counsel appointed to investigate the matter filed no charges against Brown.
more




If you read these two articles in full, you'll understand that the New Yorker Article was a "Smear" job on Wes Clark and nothing more.




Posted by Catherine Mc on January 17, 2007 3:04 AM | Permalink

January 31, 2007
Defending Wes Clark- re: The Nation & Matt Taibbi's True Colors
The inside scoop on Nation writer, Matt Taibbi, and his motives for writing that horrible worthless "inside" story on Clark's first campaign.

As Taibbi's described Clark's eyes, Taibbi's eyes were affixed on gaining revenge for his Best Friend, Slobodan Milosovic.....reknowned dictator and murderer of hundreds of thousands who eventually found himself in the Hague for crimes against Humanities prior to meeting his untimely death in 2006.

The Nation received several hundred pieces of mail, which they conveniently "judged" as an organized response from Clark Supporters! Well, imagine that! Not only are Wes Clark's eyes like a turtles' (?) but they hold hypnotic powers too (as was rumored by the Right Wing)! If he can get "hundreds" to write personalized responses to one publication, maybe he should be elected President! Or at the very least, why didn't Clark just simply hynotized Malosovic, Taibbi, The Editors of the Nation, and for that matter, the primary voters in 2004? Sadly, even the left knows how to dispel the legitimacy of even hundreds of letters to their Editors, which would prove them right and everyone else wrong, considering the piece written was subjective to a degree of extremism! Guess one would have no other choice than not writing to a magazine that they subscribed to under these circumstances! I mean, why would a one writer have any reason to be biased while hundreds would? Me, I just consider the Nation's rebuttal and characterization as Intellectual dishonesty!

The original blog entry provide many links here that you will not find in the text of my repost of the original entry. Go there for information that gets much deeper into the story of Matt Taibbi; the prime example of a journalist gone wild!

Saturday, November 29, 2003

Matt Taibbi's True Colors

For years now, I've turned to The Nation mostly for its terrific cryptic crosswords. But they also print articles, and, from following a Clark list, I learned that the current issue of the mag features a remarkably pointless pile of drivel allegedly concerning Wesley Clark, and written by one Matt Taibbi. Although the best part of the magazine, the puzzles, regrettably, don't seem to be available online. Even more regrettable, the drivel is.

The article suggests that Taibbi's wholly negative view of Clark and his supporters comes from his observation of the campaign; in fact, it goes back several years. Through the late 90s, Taibbi lived in Moscow where he co-edited and helped write an English language magazine called The eXile. The eXile was, to put it mildly, opposed to the war in Kosovo. In his writing Taibbi was an open apologist for some of the most notorious crimes of Slobodan Milosevic and his associates. Taibbi wrote a long article implying that the January 15, 1999 massacre of Albanian civilians at Racak never happened. The evidence of a massacre at Racak is extensive; according to Human Rights Watch, which took extensive testimony from survivors:

Precisely how the twenty-three men were killed by the police on the hill outside of Racak remains somewhat unclear. But witness testimony, as provided here, and the physical evidence found at the site by journalists and KVM monitors, makes it clear that most of these men were fired upon from close range as they offered no resistance. Some of them were apparently shot while trying to run away.

Journalists at the scene early on January 16 told Human Rights Watch that many of these twenty-three men also had signs of torture, such as missing finger nails. Their clothes were bloody, with slashes and holes at the same spots as their bullet entry and exits wounds, which argues against government claims that the victims were KLA soldiers who were dressed in civilian clothes after they had been killed. All of them were wearing rubber boots typical of Kosovo farmers rather than military footwear. It is possible that some of these men were defending their village in the morning and then went to the Osmani house once they saw the police entering the village. However, they clearly did not resist the police at the time of their capture or execution.

The massacre at Racak plays a prominent role in the indictment of Milosevic and his cronies for crimes against humanity. But Taibbi claims it was all a con job. To support this fantastic charge he offers no study of the evidence, but simply an examination of the resume of one witness, an American diplomat named William Walker who, as an official of the Kosovo Verification Mission of the OSCE, was among the first foreigners to enter Racak after the atrocities. Mr Walker, it seems, was previously stationed in Central America during the Contra War and related conflicts of the 1980s. Therefore, he is obviously CIA, proving clearly that the Racak massacre must have been a CIA trick. If Mr Walker were the only witness, that would be an ad hominem argument, but at least an argument. But since Walker 's statements were backed by many statements of survivors and other international observers, his own background is simply irrelevant.

The first armed NATO intervention in Yugoslavia took place at the end of August, 1995. The primary cause was the Srebrenica massacre which took place the preceding month, but the immediate spark was an artillery attack on the Sarajevo market that caused over 100 civilian casualties. Another Taibbi article suggests that this attack was staged by the Bosnians, as a plan to obtain NATO support by murdering their own people and then framing the innocent Serbs.

Despite its moral posturing about Serb ethnic cleansing, NATO itself has provided air cover for the same kinds of atrocities it now accuses the Serbs of committing. In 1995, NATO planes, responding to what many now suspect was a Bosnian-government-staged massacre of Muslim civilians, attacked and crippled the Bosnian Serb army with punishing air assaults.

It is true that this claim has been made by such as Radovan Karadzic, not the most credible of sources, but good enough for the Nation. But it was categorically rejected by the UN (see paragraphs 438 - 441 of link) for good reasons, as discussed by Richard Holbrooke ("To End A War", ch 6). It is known that five shells were fired. Four failed to detonate, so analysis of their impact permitted a clear identification of the point of origin, which was in Serb-controlled territory. For the Bosnians to have fired the fifth and fatal round, it would have been necessary for the Bosnians to have known ahead of time exactly where and when the attack would come, in order to disguise their own shell as part of it.

Taibbi's further complaints against NATO ranged from the openly racist ("The Serbs are one of the tallest, most beautiful European tribes. Somalis, too, are tall and elegant, as are the Tutsi, who actually call themselves `The Tall People.` Why are the most beautiful tribes being wiped out by the squat and ugly?") to the highly personal ("Until a few weeks ago, Western men in Moscow could always count on being given special attention by that most precious of God's creatures, the Russian dyevushka.... Not now. Thanks to the NATO airstrikes, the White God has become the White Devil. All bets are off.... The days of E-Z sex and multiple partners in a consequence-free environment are over, thanks to America's sexually-demented president. Now, dyevs don't swallow. They just spit. All because your stupid country had to go 'n' bomb the Serbs.")

The general practice, rather conspicuous above, of going the extra mile to be as offensive as possible was a habit of Taibbi and The eXile. One Taibbi essy, under the title "God Can Suck MY Dick", says:

After 9/11, I'm certain: every last person who believes in God should be swept off the streets, captured with big nets, thrown into maximum-security institutions, and forced to knit oven mitts and play Lite-Brite with each other until their deaths.

Despite what you may think, God people are not just incredibly stupid. They're dangerous. They make possible every kind of human idiocy. Why? Not just because they tend to be zealots who try to force their point of view on other people (indeed, most religions consider non-believers lost or damned); not just because they do things like level the World Trade Center or strap dynamite to themselves and walk into abortion clinics to kill teenage girls they don't even know. No, the big problem with God people is that they make patent absurdities a central fact in the lives of entire populations, so that if anyone by chance wants to live a reasonable life, he has to do so in private, apologetically, like a man walking half bent-over through a crowded subway car because he has an erection in his pants.

Some of The eXile's outrages, such as the above piece, at least make a point. Others are adolescent transgressions of the worst kind, offensive for the sake of being offensive, without actually saying anything interesting, or making any noticable satiric point, or even being tastelessly funny. Certainly after a taste of The eXile, it is unsurprising that Taibbi adopted the persona of a porn director for his 'research' into the Clark movement.

As for the article itself, there's little to say. There are few facts to debate; Taibbi deals mainly in pointless anecdotes and personal opinions. He begins by looking deep into the eyes of various candidates. In the eyes of Kucinich, he finds limpid pools of sincerity consistent with Kucinich's standing as the writer's chosen favorite. In Lieberman, he finds humor - perhaps the gentleman from Connecticut also finds it clever to pick out random strangers and talk to them about having sex with their mother's corpse. In Clark he sees nothing, although the nothing seems to resemble a turtle, and there's a picnic basket in there somewhere. See, it's a metaphor, and if you're too clueless to understand, just do what Matt would do: read the article over again, changing every noun to 'penis'.

Matt then goes undercover to attend meetups with Clark supporters, who make valiant attempts to be polite to him although he is telling bizarre lies that they probably see through. As a result of this daring investigation, he is in a position to report that Clarkies want to defeat Bush and consider that more important than memorizing every detail of Clark's platform. Not many reporters could dig up this discovery in a month or so of research - most would take more like 5 minutes.

Taibbi is at pains to challenge Clark's bona fides as an anti-war candidate. "It is not easy to explain how a man who voted for Reagan and Nixon, was a speechwriter for Al Haig, worked in the Ford White House alongside Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and was a passionate supporter of the Vietnam War could become a darling of the liberal antiwar crowd. Thirty-five years ago, hundreds of thousands of people took angrily to the streets, universities were taken over and a sitting President was hounded from the White House because of people like Wesley Clark.... o person who found the Iraq war morally repugnant could have gone on television and talked sunnily about how this or that weapon was ravaging Iraqi defenses. I remember watching Clark on CNN, and at one point he was actually playing with a model of an A-10 tank-killer airplane, whooshing it back and forth over a map of Iraq, like a child playing with a new toy on Christmas morning. A person who was genuinely opposed to the war as wrongful killing would be sick even thinking about such a thing." True, Clark is opposed to fighting the wrong war for the wrong reason in the wrong way, but that isn't good enough for Matt. Any true anti-war man would be opposed to all wars - except for those fought by tall and beautiful tribes to eliminate the unpleasantly short and ugly.

Taibbi also drops broad hints that Clark's 'true colors' involve some sort of military-electoral coup. Clark is compared variously to Caesar, Cincinattus, and Nixon. And what does the would-be dictator like to eat? Napoleons - hint, hint.


March 3, 2007
Dear Amy Goodman, Wes Clark's facts on the 1999 RTS TV Station Nato Bombing are Accurate
I watched Wesley Clark's interview with Amy Goodman via Democracy Now yesterday. I enjoyed the interview so much, I was moved to write Ms. Goodman a letter. I addressed such to: mail@democracynow.org

Dear Amy Goodman & the Producers of Democracy Now,
I wanted to thank you for the interview that you conducted with General Wes Clark and recently aired on your television program. As the first 4 Star General to proudly call himself a Democrat,
I'm encouraged that many of your viewers got to see Wes Clark answering your questions without the now routine antagonistic gotcha format often time seen. As one very closely related to members of the armed forces, I'm glad to see less blame fall on our military, and greater accountability given to our civilian leaders, who have much more say on our Foreign Policy and our ultimate action in wars.

I found Wes Clark to be refreshingly honest, even if at times I didn't totally agree with his take on certain issues. I believe that authenticity and reasoned competence are important factors required for anyone involved in politics and discussions about war and peace.

In reference to one of your questions posed on the NATO Bombing of the RTS Studio, I did some internet research and found Wes Clark to have answered your question truthfully. It does appear that the station was adequately forewarned, and it does appear that Pres. Milosovic bears responsibility for the ultimate deaths of the 16 who died due to the NATO bombing. Had the warnings NATO and Gen. Clark gave been heeded, the 16 would not have perished.

I am enclosing my internet research thus far as to the truth of that incident. I would suggest that you order the award winning book, "Silence on Aberdareva Street" by Zoran Janjic being discussed in several of the articles I am linking.
Respectfully,
XXXXX

-------------
Author of book 'Silence in Aberdareva' claims: Milosevic sacrificed RTS employees 'Dan graf', a publisher of Belgrade, published a book with proofs that former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic sacrificed on purpose 16 employees of Radio and Television of Serbia during NATO air strikes on our country in 1999. In the book it is further claimed that the action was carried out in cooperation with then Yugoslav Army and top officials of RTS. The aim was getting of decisive advantage in propaganda war against the international community.

Zoran Janic, the author of the book called 'Silence in Aberdareva' points out that from the documents and reliable testimonies it can be concluded that NATO and even its commander in Europe General Wesley Clark had informed Milosevic on time about their intention to bomb RTS. Former RTS director Dragoljub Milanovic is the only serving prison sentence for the death of 16 RTS employees, although it is obvious that several other of them knew in advance what was going to happen. 'The Army had not only the transcript of the intercepted conversation between the pilot of the combat jet that took off at Aviano, Italy, but as it turned out later on, knew about the attack three days in advance', the author of the book says.
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=twatch-l&D=1&O=A&P=18710


Vesna Peric Zimonjic
Inter Press Service English News Wire
05-03-2006
BELGRADE, May 2, 2006 (IPS/GIN) --
A book by a Serbian journalist has again stirred controversy over the NATO bombing of the Radio Television of Serbia building in Belgrade in April 1999. Sixteen people were killed in the attack. The book "Silence on Aberdareva Street" blames the Serbian regime then led by
Slobodan Milosevic and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) for the bombing. "This was a premeditated sacrifice of 16 innocent people by the regime, with the aim of scoring a propaganda point," author Zoran Janjic ...
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-122938074.html
---------------
Letter to Carla Del Ponte
Jasmina Tesanovic's blog -
28.09.2006, 18:17:22

Dear Mrs. Del Ponte,

Referring to the trial of former Serbian State officials for the crimes committed in Kosovo during the war there I want to attract you attention to the fact that these people, this criminal group, did not kill only the OTHERS, that is people of other nationalities, but also people of their own nationality, their compatriots, when it suited them. One of the particular crimes was the act of deliberately targeting 16 employees of Television Belgrade (RTS) to win the propaganda war with the West. For that crime nobody was convicted except the former RTS General manager Dragoljub Milanovic, who was sentenced to 10 years on charges of negligence, that is, he was accused of violating a governmental order about evacuation from the TV building. There is a book about the crime, which came out in Serbia in April "Silence in Aberdareva street" which summarizes brilliantly all the existing evidences and even offers some new evidence that the top Serbian State and Military officials of the time knowingly left the television staff to be killed since they had been informed previously about the upcoming NATO raid.

In connection with the crime there are at least three indictees in the Hague: there is former Yugoslav Army Chief of staff, General Dragoljub Ojdanic, the Third Army Comander General Nebojsa Pavkovic and the former Serbian President Milan Milutinovic, who also was a member of the Supreme Defence Council.

The latter two, Pavkovic and Milutinovic, had already suggested that, under certain circumstances (and surely under pressure) they were "willing" to speak about the RTS workers’ victimization. Indications for this can be found on pages 127 and 308 (footnote No 231) of the book, writtenby Zoran Janic.In the case of Milutinovic, who was Serbian President, as well as the Supreme Defense Council member (with Milosevic and President of Montenegro Milo Djukanovic) and at the same time CiviDefense Head (and thus in charge of committing the Federal Government order about the RTSbuilding evacuation), the indication that he would talk about the crime arises from his confirmed and well-known cowardliness since, after Milosevic's fall, he offered the new authorities his cooperation swearing to be loyal. During the Kosovo war, in Milutinovic’s office had been where he and other officials coordinated the propaganda war for several months (pages 258-260). His guilt regarding the RTS staff victimization was written about in the book on pages 30, 197 (at the end of the footnote No 150) 212, 253 i 254, 258-260, 309 i 314-316, including the whole last chapter of the book "Silence in Aberdareva street".

Dear Mrs. Del Ponte, these families are grateful for your readiness to help in our fight for thetruth about the concrete crime committed by the Serbian State officials, the crime in which (according to the book) all the key Milosevic criminal state institutions, including army and secret police, were involved. I believe that the crime, committed on their compatriots, can also be brought under the category of war crimes. If not, then the investigation, although restricted (moguæi dodatak: as it may be), would force Pavkovic, Milutinovic and the former head of the Secret police Jovica Stanisic to admit some new facts about the circumstances of the crime. In this case they have nothing to lose since their boss is dead.

On the other side, the Serbian Special Court for organized crime, if it agreed to deal with the RTScase, according to the evidence provided in the book "Silence in Aberdareva street", would losepretexts for not having grounds for carrying out a proper investigation. In such a proper investigation, its findings would be that the former Serbian State officals were guilty of a premeditated act of murder. Since the victims are Serbs, rather thanmembers of the other nationalities, it would be an opportunity to talk about Milosevic and his companions as killers. May be this would bea step towards reconsidering the Serbs’ own guilt.

Yours sincerely,
Zanka Stojanovic
( in the names of the victims families)
http://blog.b92.net/node/2309 also at http://www.blogodak.com/2006/09/page3
------------------
Award for Book "Silence in Aberdareva Street"
(Danas, p.1/October 24, 2006) ]
The award Dusan Boagavac which the Independent Journalists’ Association of Serbia (NUNS) grants for journalist ethic and courage was given to Zoran Janic, a journalist and publicist, for the book "Silence in Aberdareva Street". The award will be presented on 26 October, on the NUNS premises.
http://tinyurl.com/yow8fo
----------------------

Serbian authorities were informed about RTS bombing beforehand
Belgrade, 16:11
Recently deceased Serbian and Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic had deliberately sacrificed 16 journalists killed in the building of the National Broadcaster RTS during NATO bombing campaign against Yugoslavia. This is stated inthe book "Aberdar's Silence" authored by Zoran Janic and issued by Belgrade-based publishing house "Dan Grafa". The book contains evidence accounts on the involvement of the, then, top Serbian officials, SCG Army and RTS executives in the bombing of the building, aimed at winning the propaganda war against the International Community. The book cites official records dating a few days prior to the attack, such is "the death toll would be acceptable with respect to the achieved propaganda effect." "The documents and confirmed witnesses' testimonies leave no doubt that the Commander of Allied Forces for Europe, General Wesley Clark had notified Milosevic in due time on NATO's intention tobomb the building of RTS", reads Janic's book.

"The top men in RTS were Milosevic's closest aides. During the attack, they were hiding in the vicinity of the RTS building, in order to appear at the scene immediately after the blast and broadcast the material which was to deliver the final blow to the international community", the book further says.

Besides Dragoljub Milanovic, the general director of RTS at the time, who is the only convicted thus far, his assistant Jovan Ristic, RTS Secretary Dusan Jakovljevic, and editors MiloradKomrakov, Tatjana Lenard and Dusan Vojvodic had information of the imminent attack, the book reads. "The Army knew about the impending attack three days ahead", Janic alleges in his book. He quotes a man, claiming he had witnessed a conversation between Slobodan Milosevic's son Marko and Major-General Aleksandar Bakocevic, which took place in a restaurant in Pozaravec a day ahead of the attack. According to his source, the interlocutors agreed that "the number of victims would be acceptable comparing with the propaganda effect", reads "Aberdar's Silence".
Makfax Independent News Agency
http://tinyurl.com/28zbfz
(I located this last article a while ago, but the link is no longer active. I have inquired with the reporting news agency about securing a "PDF" of the original article)
--------------------------------

The best books in Serbia today are being written in our courts. Our transcripts may be our only real literature. It is sure that "Legija," that hero of the criminal underground, is writing his own books. His third publication was heavily promoted at the recent book-fair in Belgrade. I've yet to read this masterpiece of his, but I know that it sold like crazy. It certainly outsold, by far, a prize-winning, factual book by an actual Serbian journalist Zoran Janic, which detailed a sinister war crime by Milosevic, in which that recently-deceased dictator, as one part of his gaudy panoply of war-crimes, sent sixteen Serbian TV technicians to meet their certain doom in a building bombed by NATO.

http://cobrapost.com/documents/lstars.htm



Posted by Catherine Mc on March 3, 2007 5:20 PM | Permalink


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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I see the crickets were actually holding out for Tom's
wonderful and factually correct post.

:)

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Credit Frenchie with it. All I did was provide an intro to her compilation
If any of the links did not copy over live from her blog, follow them directly by going over to RAPID FIRE - Silver Bullets.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. Clark was the commander. NATO bombings of civilians repeatedly occurred...
verified by investigators later. NATO--under Clark's command--repeatedly denied the atrocities, only to have to admit later they were, in fact, guilty.

I don't know what fantasy world your sources are living in, but firing on Russian soldiers would have been a disaster. It is something Clark ordered done. Had Clark gotten his way, the fallout (perhaps NUCLEAR fallout) could have been horrendous.

You are trying to term this as a plot against Clark. I can't speak for others, but for me it isn't a plot and I am not out to get Clark. I do believe strongly that he is perhaps one of the worst people Obama could choose to do ANYTHING for Obama's administration.

Look at the baggage Clark carries with him. You would REALLY want to saddle Obama with that?

Really, I believe that it is YOU who should be worried about being called a "freeper" since only a rightwing tool would want to burden Obama with someone like Clark.

In fact, I"m sure the freepers would LOVE Obama to bring Wes on board. It would make their work so much easier.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Clark never ordered firing on Russian soldiers
You ducked my challenge to you to back up that assertion up thread and the Big Lie theory of repeating a lie often enough until people think it is true hopefully won't work with a crowd that pays attention, like most DU members.

And thanks for that expression of personal concern about my reputation on Democratic Underground. How very kind of you to warn me:

"Really, I believe that it is YOU who should be worried about being called a "freeper" since only a rightwing tool would want to burden Obama with someone like Clark."

And you were so considerate in not actually spelling it out that I must be a right wing tool. Fortunately, membership has it's rewards, and I've been a member at DU since 2003 and a lot of people here are pretty damn familiar with where I am coming from by now, so no, I am not worried about my reputation here. Tell you what. You worry about your own reputation and I'll deal with mine the way that I choose.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Bush/Rove made us all quite familiar, first-hand, with the big-lie tactic....
And the Big Lie also works for repeating ad nauseum that someone is a wonderful candidate for VP when, in fact, he carries so much baggage that he would SINK Obama's chances.

That would make the GOP and freepers very happy, but it would be a disaster for our country.

I have no concern about your reputation on DU. My comment was to address those who accuse ME--and others who object to Clark's slime-ball baggage being touted as just what Obama needs in a VP--of being "freepers."

If that description fits you, that is because of your actions, not mine.

Back to Clark's orders to take from Russian soldiers, who were occupying the airport Clark ordered taken...Are you really so disingenious that you are denying that taking the airport from Russian soldiers would not require firing on the soldiers there?

Your soldier's dirty. He's dirty with the deaths of innocent civilians and hospitalized patients. He's dirty with being willing to cause an international incident with Russia all so he would look all bright and shiny, like a hero. He's dirty with bombing a refugee convoy.

And he lied--again, self-agrandization, Clark's obsession--about the number of Yugoslavian tanks destroyed. "100" is a tad different from "11."

No wonder he and Hillary got along so well.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. If I recall the links you quoted from
showed that Clark wanted to get paratroopers to that airport before the Russians even got there. A follow up plan called for simply landing helicopters in the middle of the landing strips without use of weapons so that Soviet transports would not be able to land on them. That doesn't exactly qualify as a World War Three confrontation with 200 Russian troops, and it doesn't remotely qualify as wanting to fire on the Russians, or ordering that that happen. Jackson wanted to pursue a different approach entirely. He wanted to establish a rapport with the Russians rather than confront them in any way. The problem with that is it is naive to think that Jackson could have convinced their leaders in Moscow not to send in those air transports with thousands of Russian troops by making nice to the local officer at the air strip.

For very firm strategic reasons NATO did not want the Russians to establish an independent strong military foothold in Kosova, which controlling that airport would have given them. Jackson, one the UK's top ranking officers, put British civilian leaders in a tight bind by threatening to resign if he did not get his own way. Clark resolved the issue by finding another way to prevent Russian troop transport ships from landing at that Airport, by getting Eastern European nations to deny Russia the overflight priveledges they needed to do so.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. You recall wrong. The Russians were already there. They took Clark by surprise....
That was detailed in the BBC article. So the base for your premiseis faulty.

Clark had been prepared to send in forces before he learned the Russians had already occupied the airport. Once he knew, he wanted to send in the forces, nonetheless. Gen. Jackson refused because it would have created an international incident.

I thank you, however, for your thoughtful reply.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. He wanted to land helicopters on the air strip at that later point. n/t
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. According to the references I posted (an interview with Democracy NOw!...
of Robert Fisk, and a BBC article), Clark ordered NATO forces in to take the airport from the Russians. THat would have involved engagement of the Russians, which most certainly would have involved shooting, or perhaps bombing since that is what Clark LOVES to do.

I am not surprised he was relieved of his command. I'm surprised he wasn't court martialed.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. You are full of shit. Have a nice day.
How many troops died under his watch in Kosovo?

None.

Go Cheney Yourself.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. You might as well admit you are impotent to address the issues at hand....
The issue is Clark knowingly targeting civilian noncombatants. That is a war crime.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Links to debunk this have already been posted
You just want to pretend that they haven't been.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #60
76. Whatever you say....I'll go by what happened, you go by whatever it is you're hallucinating...
....:eyes:
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yes he is a liberal.
Take a look at his positions. Don't just judge him by his uniform. He is more liberal than Obama, Kerry, Dean, and the rest....except maybe Kucinich of course. He is one of the most liberal candidates to run in decades! Michael Moore endorsed him in 04. McGovern called him a "Democrat's Democrat" when he endorsed him. Clark was the only candidate in 04 who used the word liberal! And he not only called himself a liberal (a word the others were afraid to use) but he also called America a country founded on liberal thought!
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anniebelle Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. That is exactly what needs to be said to these idol worshipers.
That's all McGoo's got is his precious tale from Vietnam. So? He got shot down while trying to kill people (women and children included) he couldn't even see on the ground -- sorry, that's not a HERO. I probably wouldn't feel this way if it hadn't been for the way they drug Kerry and Clelland through the mud like they were Viet Cong sympathizers -- fUCK McGoo's holier than thou attitude about his so-called military service. I had lots of friends that didn't make it home from that hell hole and the ones that did were a shell of their former self.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
18. WOOHOO!
:woohoo:
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. it feels good to hear sensible arguments
it's been tiring listening to right wing nonsequitors
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
58. Here is how a man who knows that War is Hell speaks and acts
Let me pull a few quotes from the blog I used to keep about Wes Clark. I think they speak to some of the character assasination of him being attempted by some on this thread:


January 11, 2007:

Last night, while sitting in the rabid FOX’s den, Wes Clark said this to Bill O’Reilly:

"What's wrong with this scenario? You talk with Iran, you hold them at bay. One way or another, somehow, western influence seeps into Iran and the people of Iran decide that there's a better way of living, than being under the Ayatollahs. Isn't that a better approach than saying we're going to have to go to war with Iran, definitely?"
http://www.aleftturnforclark.com/2007/01/the_peace_candidate_for_2008.html#more


For those who may be unaware, Wes Clark had been a lonely voice in the wilderness for years preeching for open ended negotiations with Iran. His efforts are easy to document because he made them all in public, trying to reach people with a message of avoiding a military showdown if at all possible. Many of you know that Wes Clark started StopIranWar.com:
http://www.stopiranwar.com/ and gathered over 60,000 petition signatures toward that end.

Speaking about Peace, Wes Clark said this, while campaigning for Democrats in New Hampshire in October of 2006:


"We're being set up again, just like we were with Iraq, and what I've found in my life is, generally that if you want a war, you can have one.

Most people are about equally brave, most people will fight. Most people love their families, they love their homes, they believe that whatever they believe in is the single one way to truth, reconciliation and the after life, and most people will fight for it. Most people are not philosophical about it, and whether you're walking into a bar in New York City after the Red Sox have played the Yankees, or whether you're dealing with the Bosnians and the Serbs, or whether you're talking about Christians and Iranians.

People will fight for what they believe in. So if we want a war with a billion Muslims, we can probably have one. I don't think we want one, we certainly don't need one, and we should do everything we can to prevent it. "
http://www.aleftturnforclark.com/2006/12/the_lid_on_pandoras_trunk_stop.html#more

For anyone who really wants to know what Wes Clark thinks about the civilian deaths that happened in Kosovo, I urge you to read this from my blog, where Clark is quoted extensively on the subject:

The Pain That Chicken Hawks Don't Feel
I have met a few progressives who, though they may acknowledge that Wes Clark has progressive views, still have trouble accepting his life time of service in the military. During the 2004 Primaries one supporter of Howard Dean put it to me this bluntly: Doctors heal people, soldiers kill them. Well it is also true some Doctors have killed people, but more important, soldiers have saved lives also, while fighting for things that most of us still believe in. The American Army liberated the Jews from Nazi death camps after all. And I still remember the honor I felt, in the early 1980’s, when I met and spoke with an American citizen who, in the 1930’s, had fought Franco’s fascism during the Spanish Civil War, by volunteering in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

What frightens me are the civilian leaders in our nation who cling to power by brandishing a rhetorical sword, who deploy our armed forces like toy soldiers in a sand lot, with little or no gut understanding of what an act of war really looks like, and what the human repercussions of that act will likely be. This country has chosen leaders like that before. We know them too well.


During the 2006 Congressional elections I was present one afternoon when General Wesley Clark spoke to a predominantly Veterans audience gathered at a VFW Post in New Jersey. He was talking about post traumatic stress, and the treatment many of our veterans who return from war need, but don’t receive. General Clark spoke of the mental stress he experienced himself for years in the aftermath of the combat wounds he suffered in Viet Nam, while acknowledging that his own case was a mild one. That struck home for me, but I found myself overwhelmingly moved when General Clark recalled an experience he had as N.A.T.O. Supreme Commander during the air war in Kosovo.

As I listened I remembered that I had heard this outline before, but this time, standing in front of a crowd of mostly Veterans, there was a little more detail, and a feeling of intimacy that had me riveted. General Clark started by saying this about when he commanded the air campaign against Serbia; “I believe every human life is precious, and I knew when I was doing the bombing in Serbia – I went to bed praying we wouldn’t kill innocent people.”

Clark recalled a specific accident of War, a mechanical malfunction that affected one bombing mission. He described it in detail, he has it all etched into his memory, exactly how the bomb didn’t operate as designed, how targeting failed, the means by which the bomb “broke”, all the where and whys, and exactly what happened as a result. A cluster bomb designed to explode at 200 feet above a military target instead exploded more than a thousand feet above a school yard, and innocent children died. Wes Clark told this crowd I sat in that somehow, by some means that he can’t explain to this day, a Serbian grandfather of one of the children killed managed to get a personal letter delivered to him. “I got a letter from a Serbian grandfather. He said ‘You killed my granddaughter and I will never forget you, and I will kill you for it.’ And I don’t know how I got that letter during a War, but I’ve thought about that a lot, and prayed for forgiveness a lot.”

A man who has had that experience of war will do all in his power to prevent another, if it is at all possible. A man who avoided serving in a war that he supported, may still be itching to fight one; using someone else’s children.
http://www.aleftturnforclark.com/2006/12/the_pain_that_chicken_hawks_do.html#more





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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
63. Well done Gen. Clark
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canadian_is_cold Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
67. I have been saying this since Obama began his run...
He should pick Clark as his VP, he is a perfect compliment, his national security experience makes McCain look like a grunt. He is exactly what Obama needs. (A four star General trumps a Captain I do believe)
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. Especially a Captain who is a reverse Ace
Compared to a General who didn't lose a single soldier in Kosovo.
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