I hope the sanctimonious Russert haters are happy. KO was reading your bile the whole time.

[beachmom]

We have had a very revealing weekend on the lefty blogs. Some of us have showed class and grace in reaction to the sudden and very sad death of Tim Russert. Then there are the "I am right, and screw anyone who I deem is wrong" purist crowd who filled up lefty blogs with self righteous narcissism about how BAD Tim Russert was, especially in comparison to the holier than thou PERFECT people who wrote their screeds. I guess most of you figured you were just throwing your hate out there in the ethers for your own need to be right and obnoxious with no effect on anyone outside your little community of bloggy friends. But you would be wrong. People who actually knew and loved Tim Russert read it, in dismay no doubt, and one of them was Keith Olbermann.

Anyone who watched the coverage on MSNBC on Friday had to have been moved by Keith Olbermann, who was on air for hours, often fighting back tears, but staying strong to pay tribute to his friend and colleague. Anyone who took the time to be objective would no doubt have come away with the fact that Tim Russert was truly loved by his colleagues, and was an exemplory role model of how to be a good Dad, husband, and son. This was the impression I got after hours of viewing Friday, and in spite of the sadness, I was glad to have learned more about Russert than just his flagship show Meet the Press, where he asked tough questions of our public officials.

The blogs were not so graceful. One post heartily recommended on DU by hundreds of DUers may have been appropriate in a week or two. But not now, and yet only a few of us chimed in to this obvious point. On DailyKos, I found myself using the troll rate button until I ran out of troll rates, where people said the most vile things one could possibly imagine about a man who had just died. Little did I know until last night, that Keith Olbermann, who has an account at DailyKos, had been reading it, too, and felt compelled to reply. For SHAME, liberal bloggers!!!!

Look at his recent comment history

Here were some of the comments he made this past weekend, in response to the very awful comments made, which were echoed on DU:

This doesn't embarrass you? (151+ / 0-)

Seriously?

"If you're going through hell - keep going!" -- Winston Churchill

by Keith Olbermann on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 09:27:28 PM PDT

< Parent | Reply to This >

Yes (117+ / 0-)

When it's appropriate. When I am not in mourning for a friend.

May whoever or whatever you believe in, forgive you your incredible bad taste.

"If you're going through hell - keep going!" -- Winston Churchill

by Keith Olbermann on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 09:50:46 PM PDT

< Parent | Reply to This >

Most poignantly:

Thanks From Inside (114+ / 0-)

Not a happy place here.

"If you're going through hell - keep going!" -- Winston Churchill

by Keith Olbermann on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:47:06 PM PDT

< Parent | Reply to This >

I hope that these comments cause some of you to hang your head in shame. There is a time to criticize someone's work, and a time to save for later that criticism, and allow family and friends of the deceased time to grieve. It is very unfortunate that so many had no sense of what was the right thing to do.

Diarist Melody Townsel called it right late last night:

Grow. The. F***. Up.

by Melody Townsel

Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:45:32 PM PDT

I got the news of Tim Russert's death late Friday afternoon in the form of a delayed New York Times breaking news alert on my Blackberry. Unlike so many of the "breaking" news headlines I receive in a week, the word of his death truly took my breath away.

I was away from my computer, but near a TV, so I tuned in to MSNBC and soon found myself in tears as I watched his colleagues fight their own back. As anecdote after story after clip rolled across the screen, I couldn't help but shake my head at the depth of the loss. Particularly in this groundbreaking election year.

When I got home late Friday night, I fired up the laptop and headed here, to the Kos community, to get more than the tiny-screen, limited version I could pull up intermittently on my phone. And, as asinine comment after ugly criticism after hate-filled screed rolled across teh screen, I couldn't help but shake my head at the depth of the ugly, appalling bullshit flying around this place.

I signed off, and I've stayed off over the weekend. Yes, I was busy, but, mostly, I knew if I pulled up Kos I'd read the Russert diaries -- and the accompanying, horrifying comments so many who blog here apparently couldn't resist throwing up.

Before the man was 24 hours dead. Before the tribute show that was clearly going to fill the standing, Sunday morning Meet the Press timeslot. Before the man had been honored and buried.

And to those of you who just can't seem to help yourselves, I say, vehemently, with conviction, with all the force I can muster: Grow. The. Fuck. Up.

Tim Russert wasn't your cup of tea? Avoid MSNBC for the next few days. Didn't like his method of questioning? Be gracious for a week or so, then celebrate -- or denounce -- the man or woman appointed to fill his chair. Think the tributes are cheesy? Read a book, or see a movie, or, better yet, emulate Russert and do something positive for your own family.

Don't like the sound of his books? Don't buy 'em. Or don't read 'em. Thought the white-board-heard-around-the-world was blown out of proportion? Then, breathe easily, knowing this year's election coverage will likely be white-board free.

There are any number of decent, gracious, respectful ways to sidestep the ongoing celebration of the man's life, and the massive outpouring of love and respect he's receiving nationally -- and not just from colleagues and family.

You didn't like Russert's coverage? Sit tight. A replacement is on the way. But, while we wait, do this site -- and the progressive community a favor -- and keep a lock on the crazy-assed, Little Green Football-styled nuttiness some of you just can't seem to help yourselves from wallowing in.

You get tired of hearing about Big Russ or Luke or Buffalo? Then go watch golf, or HGTV, or take a long walk with a special person in your life -- and hope and pray that you find a way to love them as much, or be loved by them as much, as the people who surrounded Tim Russert.

Happy that the Russert era at NBC is over? Fair enough. But if you want to have any of us hear your point, listen to your analysis or, in the end, give two shits about what you think, then do us all a favor.

Stop posting your particular brand of crazy up here for the Hannity's and O'Reilly's of this world to label the rest of us with.

A man is dead. His family mourns. His colleagues mourn. Many of us who love news, love journalism, love politics are deeply saddened by his loss.

Disagree? Fine. But have some class while you do.

And seriously.

Grow. The. Fuck. Up.

Luckily, Keith saw her diary, too and responded:

Thank you for this (49+ / 0-)

Kindness to the grieving - even if it's forced, even if it just augurs a later pouncing - is appreciated.

For what it's worth, he didn't position himself publicly on this for obvious reasons, and we had had a very pleasant, very constructive "what can we do to keep our two styles from hurting each other's broadcast, or the whole organization," conversation. But Tim Russert was as supportive of what I did as anybody else at NBC, and his role on the MSNBC election coverage was voluntary and enthusiastic.

"If you're going through hell - keep going!" -- Winston Churchill

by Keith Olbermann on Mon Jun 16, 2008 at 12:22:44 AM PDT

< Reply to This | RecommendHide >

You can respond to Keith's comment right now, and express your condolences. He left that comment at 12:22 Pacific Time. That is nearly 3:30 in the morning. Clearly, he cannot sleep and is feeling awful. Lest you forget, the people we see on TV and even the people who we elect are human. Please keep this in mind the next time you feel compelled to post nasty screeds about a man who had just died.

Thank you.

[karynnj]

1. This is a beautiful post

Thank you for saying what need to be said.

[sellitman]

218. I agree. The OP is right on!

And here I thought most of the Neanderthals got axes in GD-P. I guess a few hundred slipped through the gate when no one was looking. This whole affair has made me sickened on DU for days.

Timing is everything.

[The Doctor.]

412. Absolutely!

How dare anyone express their true opinions about something. Decorum is KING baby! Which is why we never breach the boundaries by discussing politics in public.

No, leave that to the media icons like Tim Russert.

They'll tell us what to talk about.


We aren't allowed to express our understanding of politics, the economy, gas prices, and the media outside of the venue the media has already provided to itself to discuss these things... because then you must be crazy/irreverant/ghoulish and undeserving of an opinion.

Right?

[kath]

439. welcome back, doc

Hope you've rested up.

Thought I saw you use the phrase "resolute ignorance" or some such today, but don't know where to find it. Or was that someone else?

[The Doctor.]

452. Some people pay WAY too much attention.

I'm flattered.

I've used phrases like that before, but it was probably; "Willful Ignorance" that you heard.

[kath]

473. no, it was stronger than that.

Perhaps was someone else.

I've been using the term "willful ignorance" quite a bit, but this phrase was much better. Kinda jumped out at me while I was zipping through a thread.

[kath]

481. "Which is why we never breach the boundaries by discussing politics in public"

Doc, I think the concept expressed by that sentence is something that leads to the demise of political knowledge (grasping for the right term here, as I'm very tired) in our country.
It IS considered rude to discuss politics in our country. But I think in many European countries politics is vigorously discussed in the corner pub and wherever people gather, and that makes the populace more informed. Also, they have a freer press in most Yurpeen countries, and people actually *read* (gasp!) the newspaper.

You're right -- yet another factor that, combined with others, conspires to keep Murkans stoopid and asleep.

On a trip to Ireland 5 years ago, it was interesting to see that my Irish second cousins and their spouses had more knowledge of current US politics (and US history, IIRC) than most Murkans do. And these were not people with that much education.

[sellitman]

518. It's timing.

The soil isn't even down before the grave dancers came out.

Very sad IMHO

[The Doctor.]

539. There were so few of them, yet so much fuss was made.

Really, this is silly.

[laststeamtrain]

2. Get a mirror.

Sanctimonious: (adj) holier-than-thou, pietistic, pietistical, pharisaic, pharisaical, sanctimonious, self-righteous (excessively or hypocritically pious) "a sickening sanctimonious smile"

[Buzz Clik]

18. No. You're wrong. The OP is dead on. If you don't like the criticism, then change.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

43. "Russert haters" may be due criticism but that word is probably not the most apt choice.

[laststeamtrain]

78. There's no reason for me to change. I don't accept the criticism because...

it's not valid. From my POV.

I'm not here to make you happy. The only thing that would, it seems, is for everyone to agree with you.

I think there's something really wrong with that. But you don't care what I think. You just want me to agree with you.

Buddy, that just ain't gonna happen.

There seems to be many authoritarian personalities on DU: "individuals who seek to dominate those within their sphere of influence."

At least you're not calling names. The sanctimonious shaming is bad enough, the name calling is appalling.

It's been educational to observe seemingly normal adults go ape shit over differences of opinion these last few days. I doubt anyone's changed their minds.

I guess the shamers & the namers have gotten some perverse thrill out of it; some feeling of superiority. That, I believe, is the point of the exercise for them.

[liberalhistorian]

167. That so-called "sanctimonious shaming" is nothing

more than people simply being asked to be CIVIL and RESPECTFUL, the same thing you'd expect from repubs and freepers. If you have a problem with that, then you really do have a problem.

[laststeamtrain]

220. I don't have a problem. I think you do.

"That so-called "sanctimonious shaming" is nothing more than people simply being asked to be CIVIL and RESPECTFUL, the same thing you'd expect from repubs and freepers. If you have a problem with that, then you really do have a problem."
*

I was asked; I said, "No". Being unable to take "no" for an answer is not my problem. The problem lies with the person unable to take "no" for an answer.

Then comes the tantrum. The very childish behavior. Childhood's the key here. Shaming & name calling. That's learned behavior. Learned at home. It's something to get over. Then you can enter Adult Rationality-Land, a place where there's more than one opinion & they're all relatively correct & subject to rational discussion. Whopee! no dictatorial parents!
Compromise is possible & if not then you can avoid or ignore the irritant & go do something else, somewhere else. Find your people, so to speak.

Civility & respectfulness from "repubs and freepers"? Not bloody likely. Not a reasonable expectation. It's an expectation I don't have.

But, somehow, I do expect civility & respectfulness at DU. There are rules here, too. I believe No Name Calling is one of them.

As for the "sanctimonious shaming", the finger-wagging, moralistic put-downs, I'm of two minds. One, I'm sorry for people unable to transcend their toxic upbringings. Two, I really don't want to hear it. Who do they think they are?
Sometimes it makes me mad & I feel I have to say something, defend myself & all.

Question: Maybe it's just me but the tantrum-like, berserk name calling & such all seems to come from the Saint Timmy side of things. Is that true? Like I said, it seems like it to me.

Overall comment: People need to stop believing what they see & hear on TV. It's a simulation of reality. It's not reality. The smiling people on the screen are not your friends.

[kath]

437. good post , lst. However, I have a quibble with

"where there's more than one opinion & they're all relatively correct" -- this notion has run amok and caused a major problem in current discourse in the US.. In many situations, all opinions are NOT relatively correct. Many simplistic thinkers adopt this notion, and news shows and articles try to give equal weight to both sides, even when one side is not rationally-based or very much less so than the other. The second part of your sentence, "subject to rational discussion", is of course something that should always occur. But all opinions are not created equal. Reason and evidence are what matter.


Totally agree with you on the teevee stuff. What a terrible influence the boob tube can be.

[laststeamtrain]

511. Don't know if it's simplistic thinking or not but...

I've been in group planning situations (both 'for profit-business' & 'non-profit-political') where the idea of "relative truths, all correct" has come in real handy.

Everyone needs to be heard. Then you try something to see if it works. Sometimes it's back to the drawing board & you try something else.

There are always so many levels in play. When more than one person is involved, reason & evidence can become kinda slippery concepts. It's a relative world. The idea of absolute truth has led to a lot of human misery.

Frightening, but 'amok' may be the 'normal' condition. It may even be desirable.

That's where I was coming from.

Thanks for responding.

:hi:

[kath]

540. I see your point, but discussing options for the functioning of a business is a different situation

from what I was thinking about. In a "shall we try plan A, B, or C?" situation like you seem to be talking about, sure, all opinions should be aired and the pros and cons discussed, different things tried..

I'm thinking of this bullshit concept of "balance" that we're seeing in today's media. The scientific consensus on something like evolution or global warming might be something like 50,000:1 for vs. against. Yet under this "balanced" concept, they find the same number of people from both sides to interview and present the issue as if both arguments have equal merit, usually omitting or glossing over the concept of "objective evidence" or historical facts pertaining to the issue. The public comes away thinking, well it's a 50:50 split, it's just one guy's opinion versus another. In their mind "opinions" are just these free-standing things floating out there; there's no concept that an opinion usually should have an undergirding of facts/evidence. A large percentage of Americans, sadly even those with college or post-graduate degrees don't grasp the difference between "fact" and "opinion". (my specific examples here are scientific ones, but the problem exists with current event/social policy issues as well)

I wish I could express this better (I'm sure others have done so), but I hope you piece my drift. This "balance" concept, IMO, leads to the decline of rational discourse and the elevation of emotional "I feel it in my gut" and "any opinion is as good as any other" type nonsense. Reason goes right out the window -- which, of course, serves the interests of the powers that be. They certainly don't want a public with analytical skills.

Thanks.

[tblue37]

554. If a scientist expressed the well-known fact that the earth is a sphere,

and then the flat-earthers chimed in with their contrary opinion,the "fair and balanced" media would feel obliged to say, "Scientist claims earth is spherical. Opinions differ."

[L0oniX]

246. Indeed. n/t

[The Doctor.]

147. Perhaps so... but the OP fits the definition of 'Sanctimonious'.

[Jester Messiah]

222. Bullshit.

If it's sanctimonious to expect people to have a modicum of respect for the recently deceased (and their families), then we are finished as a society.

[The Doctor.]

282. Oh Puh-leeze.

sanctimonious -
adjective. pious, smug, hypocritical, pi Brit. (slang) too good to be true, self-righteous, self-satisfied, goody-goody (informal) unctuous, holier-than-thou, priggish, pietistic, canting, pharisaical

"Then there are the "I am right, and screw anyone who I deem is wrong" purist crowd who filled up lefty blogs with self righteous narcissism about how BAD Tim Russert was, especially in comparison to the holier than thou PERFECT people who wrote their screeds. I guess most of you figured you were just throwing your hate out there in the ethers for your own need to be right and obnoxious with no effect on anyone outside your little community of bloggy friends."

Given how small the number of "haters" are around here, this actually borders on laughable.

And so does your contrived self-righteousness. Get over yourself.

Why don't you tell me what I've said about Tim Russert that is so horrible? I mean, shit, while you guys are all out in force indicting people for having the gall not to worship St. Tim of Buffalo, perhaps you could tell me what I've said that violates your holy edict.

[PoliticalAmazon]

555. deleted

[PoliticalAmazon]

81. Saying I don't think Russert was a good, unbiased journalist is not "bile"...

It's being honest. Russert always came across as a very friendly man, and I enjoyed seeing him on MSNBC, especially during the primary coverage, but there were some instances on MTP where he, IMO, was not being a good journalist.

He was the LEADER of the MSNBC D.C. operation, and that means he LED the MSNBC journalists (except for KO) in their roles as media lemmings leading up to the Iraq invasion.

You KNOW he had the same information that KO, you and I had, and WE all had grave doubts about the reasons for getting our troops slaughtered in Iraq. Yet Russert did not speak out against the lies being told, nor did the majority of his stable of journalists.

That being said, I watched him most weekends and he had become a part of my weekends. I will miss him. I have so much compassion for those who knew him well, loved him, and are grieving now.

But I'm not going to lie about my opinion of his journalism. If KO or anyone else thinks less of me for that, then I am disappointed in you.

KO gets fawning worship when he speaks what he sees as the truth and bucks the establishment I would be very surprised if he doesn't extend that same courtesy to others.

Another poster posted here on Friday that there is a human group need to jump on the grief bandwagon, even if they felt very little for the deceased in the first place...and in the process they build the deceased into a near-perfect, God-like persona, even if that was far from the truth. Most important, anyone who dares to speak truth to this group-think is treated very harshly by the group.l

That is why I did not post here Friday night, Saturday or Sunday. It's also the reason I quit watching MSNBC, which I think has indulged itself in the most macabre demonstration of obsession with the dead I've ever seen before. I don't remember this much coverage for JFK or RFK, for heaven's sake.

I'm not even going to bother watching MSNBC for another week or so. Although I loathe CNN, at least they aren't massaging the dead for every drop of camera-time and pity/attention they can get.

So that's my take on Russert, MSNBC, and the group-think that leads people to canonize the deceased.

As I said, Russert always seemed like a nice person, and I will miss him on my weekends. The primary coverage won't be the same without him, that's for sure.

But he was not Baby Jesus, and I don't think lying about my opinion of him serves any purpose, except to lemming-like join the herd of grief-groupies which have overtaken DU and MSNBC.

[mirrera]

145. Same here. n/t

[ingac70]

150. Wish I could rec that. n/t

[Miss Authoritiva]

157. Perfect response. Thank you.

As for this statement:

I quit watching MSNBC, which I think has indulged itself in the most macabre demonstration of obsession with the dead I've ever seen before.

I would only add that a dead Russert became something even more precious than a live Russert to MSNBC. He became very cheap weekend programming. No doubt, the company man that Russert was would have approved.

[PoliticalAmazon]

161. I don't know if Russert would have approved. He seemed like a ....

genuinely nice guy, he seemed to have some idea of what was professional, and I hope he would have put the brakes on this Weekend-at-Bernie's romp after the first day.

The GE coverage is not going to be th same without Russert--IF MSNBC even bothers to cover the GE after this. They may not be past their massaging of the dead for ratings by November.

I keep thinking of Walter Cronkite when he had to announce the death of JFK, a much beloved president. He almost lost it when he announced, but he pulled it together afterwards. THERE was a professional journalist.

MSNBC has shown that today's current news media journalists are not even a shadow--an echo--of truly great journalists like Cronkite, and I think we, and America, are all the worse for it.

[BrklynLib at work]

164. Well said. I do not believe that death absolves one from one's actions while alive.

[dflprincess]

216. And, as a practicing Catholic, Russert didn't believe death absolves us either

in fact, for those who believe, we think that's when we answer for our actions.

[easttexaslefty]

269. However we are not the ones to

judge anothers action, alive or dead

[PoliticalAmazon]

557. Hello? This is a presidential GE opinion board. n/t

[Cha]

199. Thank you, especially

that lead up to the War ON Iraq time.

[xiamiam]

200. good post..thanks...my feelings as well..and i learned a good lesson from Tim Russerts passing

one, while I admit I have screamed at the tv during his program and turned it off..he was still a part of my life..and I respected his Everyman quality..and I have no doubt that he was a good and decent man..I could not watch anymore of the parade of grief and sadness either on the tv this past weekend..THAT seemed disrespectful to me...capitalizing on ratings on someones passing..PUH-LEASE...the MEDIA in mourning..televised!!!...anyway, my conversation with one of my friends about this..and he liked Tim ..was, how could he not know that the run up to the war was a crock?..I mean, every fiber of my being knew...and I don't have access to the information that someone in Russerts' position would have..but I knew...and everyone talked about how knowledgeable he was, which I believe...but how could someone not know?...my friend, called it 'naivete'...I dont know...I know we didnt see things the same way..and for survival, I had to draw a line in the sand a while back...when I realized how many Americans didnt have a clue that the biggest heist in the history of our country was going down..and I dont only mean our money..our integrity, our young men and women, dignity, honor..truth...all of those things that started unravelling like our constitution...you see, I was here at DU with many of you when NO ONE...and I mean NO ONE on mainstream media was questioning anything...and we were fringe...you cant really blame some here because there is still anger and resentment toward anyone who enabled...forgive us all...I hope he rests in peace once the media circus is over..

[frylock]

206. word up!

:applause:

[L0oniX]

248. "massaging the dead for every drop of camera-time and pity/attention they can get" ...so true.

The M$M doesn't care who it uses dead or alive, to keep up the ratings. You could say that the op is also "massaging the dead" for every rec and kick that can be had.

[L0oniX]

249. You got it in a nut shell. n/t

[beachmom]

288. That is not what went down on the blogs, friend. What went down was

perfectly nasty, and showed no class. I still remember when Reagan died: there was a lot of fawning, and then a week later I read an op-ed criticizing some Reagan policies. That seemed appropriate.

I read stuff on Kos in reaction to Tim's death like "Who gives a shit?" or "Good, he's dead" or "He'll burn in hell". Crap like that. It just goes against all of my values of decency.

[PoliticalAmazon]

558. When I posted here at DU the basically same content as in the post....

to which you responded, there were a lot of nasty replies.

I can't speak for truly nasty posts about Russert, but I do not recall having seen one here.

I have seen plenty of nasty replies to my own posts and similar posts by others--posts that honored Russert for being an apparently nice guy, offering compassion to his family and loved ones, etc.

[truedelphi]

445. And it's damn hard to respect someone as a journalist

When they were known for the statement "Integrity is for paupers."

If that had been a plastic surgeon's statement, or a real estate agent's slogan, or a bar and grill owner's statement, I would
sure wonder why they don't value the truth.

But when a "journalist" has made that statement, I have to repress a serious need to upchuck.

KO can think whatever he wants. If he knew Russert as a friend and as a person, and has fond memories of him as those things, fine. But a large responsibility for what this country has become rests with the many of our "journalists" who hold exactly the attitude that Russert's statement on integrity conveys, and we are on the road to fascism if not already there, because of their assistance in persuading us to come along for the ride, the truth be damned.

[PoliticalAmazon]

559. ITA. Thanks. n/t

[spag68]

467. Russert

I'm with you. I had nothing in general against Russert, however IMHO he was just another msm talking head. If he was so great he would have seen the things so many of us did back then. He was probably better then most, and I feel some sorrow for his family, but why is their pain any worse then any of us who have lost loved ones. I for one am sick of all these millionaire talking heads giving me my marching orders. I am a vet, i did not get drafted, I did my time and I resent someone who did not telling me what to think.

[greyghost]

130. Thank you, spot on.

[ekwhite]

234. Your mirror, sir

Callous: (adj.) Emotionally hardened; unfeeling and indifferent to the suffering of others. "She was so callous that she could criticize a cancer patient for wearing a wig."

[laststeamtrain]

267. Hardly true that I'm callous.

But I'm sure being correct isn't your intent.

That grandiose feeling of moral judgment is. Enjoy.

[L0oniX]

245. I am with ya on that. n/t

[valerief]

265. Bingo! nt

[earthlover]

510. Sanctimonious: (adj) (example: pissing on someone's grave)

[groovedaddy]

520. Mark Twain was once asked to comment on the passing of someone he loathed

"I've sent a note to the family letting them know that I approved."

[laststeamtrain]

534. Wow. That's some dictionary you got there.

You probably want to take it back & get a refund.

[The Doctor.]

541. ????

[ClassWarrior]

3. You make sanctimonious accusations, yet you link to nothing on DU.

Some proof, please? I've seen no "hate."

NGU.

[beachmom]

13. I thought this post, and some of the silly comments to it was ill timed.

In a week, maybe, but not this past weekend. And there was worse:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3450703

Over 100 recommends. That is "sanctimonious". My point of contention is quite narrow: when somebody dies, save the criticism of the man for later. Is that now considered obnoxious to point out?

[ClassWarrior]

26. Well that's a link. So where's the "hatred?"

Looks like a commentary on the man's life. :shrug: And not an inaccurate one, either.

NGU.

[Buzz Clik]

48. It sure as hell related nothing positive.

It might not rise to the level of hatred, but it was inappropriate in its timing. Which is the entire point.

[ClassWarrior]

55. No, the entire point was to paint DUers as "sanctimonious Russert-haters."

NGU.

[Buzz Clik]

60. I would say this: some DUers are, indeed, sanctimonious Russert-haters.

There aren't many. My personal complaint is with the far greater number of those lacking the self-discipline to simply wait a couple of days before casting their doubts and criticisms about Russert. These people tend to be sanctimonious Russert dislikers.

meh. :shrug:

[Kolesar]

79. I don't have to wait a millisecond to launch my criticism of Tim Russert

I really doubt if his family members are reading DU. On the scale of the tasteless horrors we have seen for six years, this is nothing. Your sense of scale is way off.

[Buzz Clik]

91. We disagree.

[The Doctor.]

294. They're not in the same league of course, but would you also favor a "say no ill" policy

after Cheney dies?

You see, you're either universally for such a thing, or you simply choose to dismiss the validity of the criticism.

When Cheney dies, there will be many 'rot in hell' posts here. I've seen no such posts regarding Tim Russert, and if there are any, they're immensely rare. Will you advocate for the same when Cheney goes?

[Buzz Clik]

361. Yes, just as I did after Reagan and Ford died.

I have no affection for Cheney, and I am quite sure he'll burn in Hell. But, I'll say nothing bad of him until he's been planted, torched, or simply screwed into the ground.

[The Doctor.]

376. That I can respect.

Thanks for putting up with all those who've let their disenchantment subvert their decorum.

It's a product of the times.

[Arugula Latte]

116. Uh ... It HAS been a couple of days.

[Buzz Clik]

126. Uh ... did all this start today.

:eyes:

[The Doctor.]

296. Uh... Then why are we still 'not allowed' to impugn his character?

[Buzz Clik]

362. Scroll up to the top. This discussion about about behavior in the hours following TR's death.

[The Doctor.]

380. So it's ok now?

Yeah, I already know that you're ok with it by now... so I have to ask... "What did you really think of Russert?"

[Buzz Clik]

459. I easily adopted my favorite DU nickname for him:

The Evil Elf. I didn't think he was truly evil, but he was certainly annoying.

[Inuca]

63. Nonsense n/t

[ClassWarrior]

69. No, and the OP didn't use the word "bile" in the title either.

:eyes:

All of the posts I've read about Russert have been measured and rational, if not necessarily positive. Yet the OP uses hyperbole to accuse them of being hyperboic. And you defend this?

NGU.

[Inuca]

107. Somebody below said that

"he did the work of the devil", just an example. Does this qualify as "measured and rational" in your book? It surely does not in mine. So yes, I mostdefinitely stand with the OP on this.

[ClassWarrior]

120. Wow, one mild after-the-fact citation. How compelling.

:eyes:

NGU.

[Inuca]

124. Mild? I rest my case n/t

[The Doctor.]

143. Right, because he died, no one is allowed to point out the damage he did.

God forbid someone should express disgust with a media hack after they've died.

Death makes us all angels... I can't wait to see people around here talking about what a wonderful guy Cheney was. I'm sure you'll be just as keen to admonish anyone who doesn't properly faun over him too.

[Inuca]

154. Criticizing vs. insulting

Talking vs. hitting somebody, dead or alive, over the head like in the smiley in your post. There IS a difference, and that's where my problem lies. And, if I understand correctly, the OP makes the same point.

[The Doctor.]

193. Now you find smilies offensive?

Seriously, I'm on the same page here. The problem is that too many people are treating the justifiable criticizm as 'attacks'.

It's sanctimonious.

Now, if you have direct examples of "Fuck Tim Russert", or "I'm glad he's dead", then we can agree those are uncalled for. But if all you have are earnestly expressed positions and views such as "He was a media hack", then you're just plain hypersensitive. Saying that someone is a 'ghoul' because they don't conform to your delicate sense of decorum puts you firmly in the 'hypersanctimonious' class.

Fair enough?

[LanternWaste]

105. And from what I've read on DU over the weekend...

And from what I've read on DU over the weekend, the point should very well be taken-- but it won't.

[Inuca]

52. Did you actually look through the thread?

You do not like the word hatred? What about stupid pettiness? And the "holier than thou" in the OP is spot on. For way too many people here and elsewhere the ability to use a keyboard seems to turn them into holy warriors for the absolute truth they, and only they, are able to comprehend.

[Buzz Clik]

62. I agree. Focusing on the single word is an intentional diversion from the issue at hand.

[The Doctor.]

153. I did, and there are few if any examples of 'hatred'.

That's the problem here; so many people pretending that just being honest about the man is 'evil' simply because he's died.

[Peregrine Took]

254. There HAS to be "hatred" so the poster can be "holier than thou."

Don't you get it??
Remember when you point the finger at "them" - check out the mote in your own eye.

[PoliticalAmazon]

560. Thank you for pointing out the Strawman Argument.....

I do not remember reading nasty posts here at DU...except as replies to those of us who questioned the posthumous deification of Russert.

[bvar22]

80. So ill timed = hate.

Maybe you should step away from the TV for a while.

[Kolesar]

84. “Integrity is for paupers!”

thanks for the link :sarcasm: I would not have known about Russert's hiring were it not for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3450703&bcsi_scan_6E0FCBF224647A7E=RPcTPA0AkrErOkv+WlggrgQAAAB6GGoF&bcsi_scan_filename=duboard.php#3453011

“Integrity is for paupers!”

In 1992, shortly after being named moderator of Meet The Press, Tim Russert was having lunch with a broadcast executive. The mealtime conversation was about the pros and cons of working for General Electric’s NBC subsidiary. Russert expounded on how being employed by GE had brought him to the realization that things functioned better when Republicans were in charge.

“You know, Tim, you used to be such a rabid Democrat when you worked for Pat Moynihan,” said the executive. “But now that you’ve gotten a glimpse of who’s handing out the money in this business, you’ve become quite the Jaycee. Were you wrong about everything you used to believe so strongly?”

“I still believe,” Russert said, leaning across the table. “I believe in everything I ever did. But I also know that I never would have become moderator on Meet The Press if my employers were uncomfortable with me. And, given the amount of money at stake, millions of dollars, I don’t blame them. This is business.”

The executive agreed. “But are you concerned about losing yourself? You know, selling out?”

Russert pounded the table. “Integrity is for paupers!”


http://makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/020109_Russert.htm

[chieftain]

117. Thanks for your post and the link. There is a ton of disinformation

being spread now and it is useful and appropriate that the counterpoint be heard. It will never be spoken in the corporate media but thank goodness the internet exists and is beyond the control of General Electric.

[LibDemAlways]

463. It's all about the money, isn't it?

Russert did what he felt he had to do to earn the big bucks to be able to live the cushy life of a prominent tv "journalist." He was a sell out who allowed himself to be used by war profiteers for propaganda purposes.

I'm sorry for his family that he met his demise at such a relatively young age, but I'll never forgive or forget his role as Bush Crime Family shill.

[MindMatter]

129. That must be a two-way street

First, I have not seen anything remotely resembling hatred toward Tim Russert. I don't deny there could be a very small percentage of posts that fall into the personal hate category, but that is certainly not the norm here at DU.

What is a widespread view is that the man was personally responsible for a significant part of the compliance on behalf of NBC in blind support of the Bush/Cheney/Neocon administration.

I trust that most of us have the good sense and compassion to not engage in such a critique over the man's warm body. However, it becomes an entirely different proposition when the airwaves become saturated -- in ironically typical Russert fashion -- with one-sided advocacy for the kind of work he did. I suppose one could argue that we should still bite our lips and allow the neocon apologists to exploit Russert as their conscience-free mouthpiece one final time. But I don't feel any such restraint.

If his advocates didn't want a review of his professional tenure at this moment, then they should have kept the eulogies confined to testimonials about friendship, family etc.

So don't blame us. We didn't ask for this debate.

[L0oniX]

257. I'll be the scape goat on this one ...dead or alive, I hate Tim Russert !

I should start a "I hate Tim Russert dead or alive" post. :sarcasm:

[Buzz Clik]

21. You're not serious.

Just because you didn't read the dozens and dozens of threads is no indication that they don't exist.

[papapi]

39. Who needs links? It's all over this fucking board. Disgusting.

[ClassWarrior]

71. Then it should be easy for someone to provide one. Yet no one has.

NGU.

[PoliticalAmazon]

561. Because otherwise you will be accused of creating a Strawman Argument...

as an unethical means to attack other posters without justification.

[Gman]

97. Have you not read anything about Russert on DU since Friday?

Why should she do your reading for you?

[endarkenment]

4. Reminds me of the Deification of St. Reagan and the bad sorts here.

St. Russert's passing should have been observed with three days of national mourning. Those blasphemers who have fouled our internets with their fecal leakage should be burned at the stake. There is but one Great Journo and Timmeh is his name.

[Buzz Clik]

27. Boy is that funny!

not

[tblue37]

28. This is my problem. I would be perfectly happy to stay out of it,

if all people did was say how sad it is that a nice guy died before his time, because everything I have read suggests that Russert was indeed a nice guy, well loved by those who knew him.

But instead everone here has to go on and on about what a terrific, fair, objective journalist he was, and that is simply not true. He was obviously biased because he was working for GE and clearly supported the corporatist party line. He openly admitted to using RNC oppo research rather than doing his own investigative reporting. He used Republican party talking points to set the weekly agenda for the broadcast media.

One reason why we can't just "wait a decent interval" to get the truth out there is that a lie makes it halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its pants. Once that sanctification of a person gets established, we can't do anything to counter it. Just try to tell anyone, even most Dems, that Ronald Reagan was neither a good president nor a popular one. Most people don't know that because we were not able to prevent the media's orgy of sanctification from canonizing him and turning him into an icon of all that is true and good. Nowadays when people complain about the corporatist agenda of the GOP, everyone has to say something like, "The GOP has veered away from (or corrupted) Reagan's vision." But that's not true. The GOP has simply fulfilled Reagan's vision. It was always a lousy vision.

[Buzz Clik]

33. How hard would it be to tune out those conversations?

Do you feel compelled to interject every time you hear an opinion you don't support?

[tblue37]

47. Once again--it is a real risk to allow the canonization to go on

without some sort of correction, because once it is set in stone, we won't be able to counter it. Mourning is one thing. He was apparently a nice man who was loved by his friends and family. But to canonize his work is different from mourning the man. His work did a great deal of harm to progressive causes and helped this criminal administration promote a war that has killed and wounded an awful lot of people.

[Buzz Clik]

49. More rationalization for bad behavior.

[jonestonesusa]

207. "Bad Behavior"? Please.

First of all, very little if any "bad behavior," whatever that is, has been documented by the OPer or anyone else making that accusation.

Secondly, why would it ever be called bad behavior to make critical comments about a journalist, living or dead, on a political discussion board? That's part of the purpose of the board. If this were the Tim Russert supporters group on DU, critical comments would not be appropriate.

There are genuine differences in how people grieve, and not everyone does grieve when the person who passed is not a personal friend but a celebrity, a journalist in this case. If it is genuinely painful to hear critical comments about Tim Russert, ignoring the comments seems to be the best solution. Trying to shame people during an open discussion for being critical of Russert...well, it's not illegal (yet), but it is pointless, and way too authoritarian a way to approach a discussion board. I appreciate the critiques of Russert, who was not a journalist I personally admired, but I was less informed about his career and political leanings before the current discussions on the board.

[Buzz Clik]

211. This has been explained a thousand times.

If you're comfortable with the behavior exhibited all over DU every time a "controversial" figure dies, fine. I'm not.

[jonestonesusa]

225. I am perfectly comfortable with agreeing to disagree about the OP,

if that's what you mean. I have not carefully followed conversations on DU about other deaths, being a fairly recent member, and I haven't spent as much time as you may have looking at the Russert threads. Among all of them there may indeed be some takes that I disagree with, though the OP and yourself use a broad brush and slander all critics of Russert with the same generalities. I don't think that's fair or useful since I have learned about Russert's career from the posts, more than I knew before.

I would much rather learn from discussion than close off debate for the sake of "manners." That's all - it's certainly your right to be uncomfortable with the discussions if you prefer. Of course.

[kath]

451. So you've become more informed by reading about Russert, because of the discussions here?

That's very gratifying to hear. I wonder how many more there are like you?
That's the great thing about places like DU -- you can read (nearly always better than watching the boob tube), learn and become more informed.

But only if you *want* to learn.

[tblue37]

552. And only if people are not successful in their attempts to shut down disussion. n/t

[frylock]

316. how hard would it be to tune out those conversations?

why not ask the same of yourself?

[KoKo]

59. Good Points....thanks....n/t

[jefferson_dem]

5. Thank you.

I still cannot believe the vile ghoulishness exhibited by some here regarding Russert's passing. This has not been one of DU's finest moments, to say the least.

[papapi]

40. Agreed.

[loveable liberal]

6. Loads of people die every day..

One of my very close family members will probably die this year. Although she might get lucky and be invited to Switzerland for a cancer treatment that has been available there for over 10 years that is not available here.

Will there be outrage or national mourning over her death. Of course not. Was she in a position to do the right thing and affect national politics? A position to represent the fourth estate as it was meant to be? No. Tim died. He was a nice man. Most people who die, I believe, are equally nice. Its a tragedy for sure for his family and those who loved him. But dont for a minute think the man was not flawed. I dont believe we on DU are dancing on his cyber grave, but dont expect us to grieve as deeply for someone who was definately part of the problem.

R.I.P. Tim Russert.

[beachmom]

10. Yes, but how many people who have died that you know if, have had

nasty screeds written about them? THAT is the point. And what Melody says stands. If you don't care that much about it, then turn off NBC. It isn't so hard.

[loveable liberal]

35. One persons "nasty" is another persons "truth" I guess..

People express themselves in different ways. It's our reaction that determines the meaning. It really doenst affect me either way. I'm almost positive Tim wouldnt give a rats ass. If some want to be nasty let them be nasty. Its far more dangerous to limit expression.

[BeyondGeography]

7. Both sides have a point

I think Russert was a genuinely decent human being, even if I didn't agree with his approach all the time. We also know the MSM's priorities are often questionable and it will take anything that strikes them as important and beat it with a strick until there's no life left in it.

[Waya]

8. Thanks,

I'm not good with words when it comes to this kind of thing. All I know is - I still have trouble believing it. Tim seemed to be around all the time - I didn't always agree with him - but he knew his stuff and I admired that.
I don't care what anyone says - the Convention and the Election results on Nov. 4th will not be quite the same without him - someone will be missing from the 'Election Gang' and that's sad.
And no matter what one feels about Tim Russert, he was a good journalist, he was a husband, a son, a a father, a human being - and for that alone he should be and will be missed.

[jefferson_dem]

9. ...

:thumbsup:

[springhill]

337. That's precisely the problem..........

he very often didn't know his facts, or pretended like he didn't; either way, it wasn't good. And I'm sure he was a very good husband, father and son.

[Frustratedlady]

11. Don't you feel these jerks have never lost someone so close, it tore them up inside?

Once they mature, perhaps they will have more compassion for others. Probably not, but we can only hope.

I was SO impressed with Luke, this morning. That little family has been on my mind for the entire weekend. Bless their hearts. Such a loss.

[PoliticalAmazon]

562. Please provide a link to these "jerks" you reference. Thanks. n/t

[Swagman]

12. he died doing something he loved-and not in a badly built Humvee

It just goes to show that in fame death means you are more equal than others.

Melody Townsel's post is totally out of order. Everyone involved in the "machine" of the corporate media that spreads the lies is guilty.
In the grown-up world that Melody wants we must face reality. No-one need feel guilty about pointing out the deficiencies of a public broadcaster who chose to put others under the spotlight. The truth must never be hidden under maudlin sentimentality nor does Keith Olbermann-because perhaps he gives a more democratic view, have the right to demand silence from others.

That is an outrage.

Of course people can understand his family are going through a difficult time. So are thousands of others-the families of soldiers ( 4 in the last few days)or dozens of Iraqis-even a Pakistani family when one was killed by a US unmanned missile a few days ago-where are their eulogies ?

As Melody says : Grow. The. Fuck. Up.

[beachmom]

17. No, this is EXACTLY what I am talking to. Since you are "right" on Iraq,

that has given you license to dismiss the death of a man you disagreed with. Well, that was not how I was raised. When someone dies, you pay your respects, and if you can't do that, you bite your tongue, saving criticisms of the media for later. Nobody is "silencing" you; certainly KO wasn't either. But speech does have consequences, where people can point out the callousness of others.

Wow, the comments here apparently prove my point.

[Swagman]

25. no-one dismisses his death-it's a reality. But how dare anyone

demand others to put their beliefs aside !

This is the "cult of personality" and we are now seeing the results.

I don't recall Tim Russett ever "biting his tongue" while thousands died.

As far as I can see not a single person on DU has made references to Russett's peronality but about his work. And he did the work of the Devil.

[Inuca]

66. "he did the work of the Devil."

QED :puke:

[Duncan Grant]

144. Why do you (or anyone else) get to define the appropriate response to Russert's death?

Well, that was not how I was raised. When someone dies, you pay your respects, and if you can't do that, you bite your tongue, saving criticisms of the media for later.

I understand your sensibilities are offended. Mine aren't. I think it's perfectly appropriate to cast a critical eye at Russert's career and his role in the MSM.

What does bother me is this desire on the boards to vilify others. Yesterday, a thread said that people who don't have an appropriate response to Russert's death have a "sickness". Today's inappropriate behavior is "sanctimonious".

This feverish revival to vilify others for their own legitimate experience is what is inappropriate, imho. With all due respect, please have your experience of Russert's death but also ensure that others have choice about their own.

edit: haste

[Reterr]

179. Excellent post

:applause:
This is exactly what bugs me-the blindness to one's own side's faults, while preaching and scolding others. Faults all around here-we are all human, as was Russert.

[easttexaslefty]

271. True that.....

[AngryAmish]

93. Elvis died doing what he loved, too.

[MindMatter]

133. Don't get me started on Elvis ...

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. Elvis loved going to the bathroom?

He died on the toilet, Dude. :rofl:

[AngryAmish]

188. Therein lies the humor

[Faygo Kid]

14. This is unfair. Most of the criticism goes to substance, not him personally.

I have always extended sincere condolences to his family, friends and coworkers. He was a talented and compassionate man.

But the fact remains that he was emblematic of a corporate media that was all too willing to swallow the crap we were spoonfed in 2002 about this awful war. He was in a position to do something about it, and did not. That, sadly, is part of his legacy.

He was a public figure. Personal criticism is out of bounds. Professional criticism is not.

[beachmom]

23. "May Russert burn in hell" as opined in a diary on Kos isn't personal?

[hlthe2b]

29. There were similar on DU, just the mods were better at deleting

Thank you, Mods, BTW...

[Faygo Kid]

311. Did you even read my post?

Didn't I SPECIFICALLY say such comments are out of bounds?

Why the hell would you post such a response?

[mzmolly]

51. I feel like many are holding Tim Russert responsible for the war itself.

It's bizarre.

[theboss]

119. Purity tests are popular in the left-wing blogosphere

They would despise Murrow for something I am sure if he was on the air today.

I mean, the guy pitched cigarettes and interviewed celebrities.

Whore.

[mzmolly]

123. Agreed.

:(

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. He bore some responsibility

Te deny that is just ignorant.

[mzmolly]

232. Who's denying it? He didn't.

To deny that he's not worthy of appreciation because he didn't single handedly prevent the war is also "ignorant".

[proud2BlibKansan]

264. No one expected him to single handedly prevent the war

He was played by Cheney. Moyers laid it all out for him. And Russert just sat there with a dumb look on his face. Since then, he had multiple opportunities to chastise Cheney or to say ANYTHING. But he did not.

Over a million people are DEAD and our media dropped the ball in the lead up to this war. If Russert and all the others had done THEIR jobs, we may have avoided war. So no, he isn't worthy of appreciation.

[mzmolly]

299. So now he's guilty of not properly chastening Cheney? Well at least the goal posts are a bit more

reasonable than they were a few minutes ago.

Also, he did say something. He said he wished he had been contacted by those with "concerns". In fact, it's in a post you yourself noted.

BILL MOYERS: Critics point to September eight, 2002 and to your show in particular, as the classic case of how the press and the government became inseparable. Someone in the Administration plants a dramatic story in the NEW YORK TIMES And then the Vice President comes on your show and points to the NEW YORK TIMES. It's a circular, self-confirming leak.

TIM RUSSERT: I don't know how Judith Miller and Michael Gordon reported that story, who their sources were. It was a front-page story of the NEW YORK TIMES. When Secretary Rice and Vice President Cheney and others came up that Sunday morning on all the Sunday shows, they did exactly that.

My concern was, is that there were concerns expressed by other government officials. And to this day, I wish my phone had rung, or I had access to them.

He also expressed regret for being "played" by this administration. But, one has to admit there was no precedent for Vice Presidents PLANTING "news" stories and then pretending to "quote" them on Network @#% TV. Russert was expected to be psychic, apparently?

Bob Simon has knowledge of the Middle East that most reporters/Television show hosts do not. He lives there. Comparing Russert to Simon is apples and oranges in this case.

As you said, Russert was played, he wasn't involved in a deliberate attempt to mislead the public.

[proud2BlibKansan]

312. "He wasn't involved in a deliberate attempt to mislead the public"???

Oh yes he was. Without a doubt. He was used by the Bush administration to mislead the American public. Did he realize it at the time? Probably not. But it was indeed pointed out to him. And he failed to speak up.

The part you left off of that excerpt was when Moyers said "BOB SIMON DIDN'T WAIT FOR THE PHONE TO RING". That's a pretty important part of that transcript.

[mzmolly]

326. If he didn't realize it, how could he speak up?

I addressed Bob Smith in another reply to you. He lived in the Middle East and had an understanding of that area unlike US reporters.

I did not take Moyers report to be one of chastening Russert, I took it to be an examination of how the press can be better prepared in the future.

I will not shit on the victims grave here, sorry.

[proud2BlibKansan]

348. Watch the video:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3456344

Moyers laid it all out for Russert.

[mzmolly]

387. I have.

eom

[PoliticalAmazon]

556. Thank you. n/t

[high density]

15. I can understand why people didn't like Russert, but I don't know why people have expressed it...

in the way they have. I didn't particularly like the guy or Meet the Press, but that doesn't mean I have to go shitting on his grave. I watched about an hour of the MSNBC coverage on him and it seemed like a nice reflection on the man. One has to feel sadness for his family and his coworkers that clearly loved him. Like the Kos poster, I have to admit the news of his death took my breath away, I'm not sure why, but it was a shock.

Any anger about the war should be focused on Bush and congress. Russert, nor any other US "MSM" journalist in 2002-3, was not going to drift out on a flimsy little limb and go after Bushco's war plans. It was up to the congress to do that. If they could've put it out there, Russert and everybody else could have used it. I think people forget how jingoistic the entire country was at that time, and I wonder how long Russert would've lasted in his job had he sat every Bush admin person down and started blasting them for the war when our own elected officials wouldn't do the same thing.

[Swagman]

32. And that is the point isn't it. Others have put their careers on the line

and paid a price for it. Plenty in the military have lost their careers.

Others play it safe and when too many play it safe you end up with George Bush .

[H2O Man]

16. It might surprise

many DUers to know how many people in Washington, DC and in the media who read the Democratic Underground.

[beachmom]

20. Exactly. I only have evidence of KO reading DailyKos, but there is no doubt

in my mind that many people who knew Tim Russert read DU.

[eleny]

92. Then let D.C. take a lesson from it

That many people here know what has been done to our country and who in the press enabled it. To many, America is more important than Russert.

I offered my condolences here upon learning the news. But I refuse to participate in whitewashing his negative affect on our country by lauding him as a journalist of merit. I won't be complicit in perpetuating the myth that he was fair.

[H2O Man]

95. Right.

We are not limited to but two options. It's not a matter of viewing Russert as all good or all bad.

[hlthe2b]

19. Here, Here....! K&R (highly)

:thumbsup"

[smoogatz]

22. Russert was, by all accounts, a kind and decent human being.

He was also, as many have pointed out by now, a truly crappy journalist, and someone who misused (unintentionally, perhaps) his enormous influence with occasionally disastrous results. We can feel sorrow for the loss of the man and still be honest about his failings as a professional, which are manifold.

[dflprincess]

219. Well said.

Perhaps if his colleagues hadn't gone overboard with coverage that rivaled the Reaganpalooza, there would not have been those who went overboard with their criticisms.

[emmadoggy]

327. I agree. nt

[stevietheman]

24. The problem is lauding a mediocre career just because he died.

Of course the grieving should be respected, but respected to the point of being dishonest about who Russert was? I don't think so.

[Buzz Clik]

31. It's not the criticism that is offensive, it's the timing.

This has been repeated over and again.

Why not wait?

[Swagman]

34. Timing is important. It has to be pointed out now -not in a year when

Russett will be forgotten.

Self-censorship is not on..not in this bloody lifetime and not because a broadcaster died a natural death.

Those calling for silence are being childish and bordering on the unreal.

[Swagman]

37. No wonder Washington and the Bush regime can walk all over

liberal minded people.

Why are you deifying a broadcaster ?.

[Buzz Clik]

64. LOL! Asking that you simply delay your spew by a few days equates to "deification"?

[odelisk8]

334. ask

all you want...the world is not yours to command. Nor DU.

[Buzz Clik]

359. That's the difference between "ask" and "order", ace.

[defendandprotect]

422. Who in the hell put YOU in charge of what DU'ers should say and do --- ????

Grow up!

[fascisthunter]

504. .

:thumbsup:

[Buzz Clik]

45. No one was asking for a year. Just a few days would have been nice.

Those calling for silence are being childish and bordering on the unreal.

No one asked for silence, and only one side is launching insults.

[Inuca]

61. Even criticizing is OK I think, as long as

it is done in a mindful and respectful way. But many people do not seem to grasp the difference between being critical and being insulting.

[janet118]

96. If all the eulogizers stuck to sorrow for his death . . .

without extrapolating their expressions of sympathy to include the glorification Russert's career and his credibility as a journalist, I'm sure no one would disagree. However, when there are outright exaggerations and lies told about a man's work just because he died on the job, people have an absolute right and obligation to correct the record.

Saying that people "hate" Tim Russert because they rein in some of the over-the-top assessments of his integrity as a "news" bureau chief and journalist, is like saying they "hate" America because they object when someone says, "America has the best medical system in the world" during a discussion on health care.

[Buzz Clik]

132. You aren't the first to challenge the concept that "hate" is being expressed about Russert.

By and large, you are correct. Most of the posts about Russert do not express hate; similarly, despite claims to the contrary, very few posts at DU have suggested that Russert be deified or canonized. It's the kind of hyperbole that is typical of internet discussion boards.

However, it is just as incorrect to suggest that no hate toward Russert has been expressed here. A quick search will find threads suggesting that Russert was a "Cheney ass licker", that he was a traitor, that he was a knowing accomplice in the invasion of Iraq, and that he was McCain's personal biographer/campaign publicist. We might quibble about whether or not such sentiments rise to the level of hate, but there's no denying that they come close.

[janet118]

226. Actually the posts you refer to are not that easy to find . . .

and, to be fair, there are probably just as few posters who have expressed over-the-top praise for Russert's "outstanding journalism".

I guess the adulation I was referring to in my post is mostly coming from the mainstream media - their 24/7 self-serving promotion of one of their own. I wouldn't have a problem if Washington media and political insiders said that Russert was good to his colleagues, friends, family and hometown and left it at that. But when they go on (and on) to say that his interviewing skills on MTP were of the highest caliber, blah, blah, blah . . . well, it's a bit too much for those of us who have been watching closely.

DU should be a place where we can offer counterbalance to the MSM hype. In the case of Russert's body of work, the MSM is certainly giving a one-sided assessment of it as first-rate, credible, unbiased "journalism." I think many of the DU posters are just reacting to the media's beatification of Russert by sounding off in a place where they are usually free to express thoughts that differ from the electronic echo chamber.

[kath]

160. very good post, Janet!

welcome to DU!
you made some very good points. Pleased to meet a member of the reality-based community.

[eppur_se_muova]

293. NIcely put, and welcome to DU!

These eulogies don't just say "He's dead, and we miss him", they say "He's dead, and we miss him. He was a truly great man, who did a lot of good in his lifetime". THAT'S why people keep calling bullshit! He may have been a great friend to his co-consp... uh, colleagues, but he was an enemy of the public good, and that counts one HELL of a lot more, IMNSHO.

[Inuca]

58. Mediocre career?

Yet another example of throwing stones for the pure pleasure of throwing stones (and feeling good about it). Has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing, liking or disliking somebody. Hell, even Limabaugh has anything but a mediocre career!

[Shakespeare]

125. It's not just throwing stones--it's stunningly ignorant.

As someone who's BEEN a political reporter, I've done lots of eye-rolling over the armchair experts here. Russert was mediocre? Riiiiiight. He's one of the best interviewers in political journalism. I don't think most folks fully understand the research and skill that go into a job like Russert's.

You don't have to like him--and I've said many times that he occasionally pissed me off, too--but to call him mediocre is just dumb.

[Inuca]

155. Dumb - that sums it up quite nicely n/t

[NashVegas]

134. His Career Was Not Mediocre

His journalism, on the other hand, was all style ...

[Howardx]

30. its very important

that we all make sure we dont write anything keith olbermann might not like.

[papapi]

36. Russert's death is a saddening lose. I'm sure many will miss.....

him including his family and colleagues. I know I will miss him.

[jgraz]

38. Russert was KO's friend. He wasn't mine. And he wasn't yours.

If Keith didn't want to read negative posts about his dead friend, he probably should have stayed away from teh internets for a bit.

Personally, I feel as bad about Russert's death as I do about any dead celebrity. But I feel worse about the lies that are being told regarding his "stellar" journalistic record. Russert hurt his profession and he hurt this country with his incessant toadying. Lionizing him does nothing to reverse that damage.

[bvar22]

90. Shhhh.

According to many here, it is "bad timing" to tell the TRUTH.

[jgraz]

94. Yes, there's a time for truth and this isn't it

As always, Timmeh engenders the highest journalistic standards in us all. :eyes:

[YvonneCa]

171. It's not about timing...

...it's about HUMANITY. Bill Clinton had a good line about how, as a people, we always have things that divide us. But our strength as a country will be when we realize that our common humanity matters more.

There are times to fight, and issues to fight about that are most justified and necessary for our country. Death or serious illness of another person...be they male or female, of any race or religion, Democrat or Republican, etc... is a time when our common humanity should win the day. That shows our strength as a people. It's also how we win...whether it's an election, the war on 'terror', or our common future.

Some on DU have shown a tremendous lack of EMPATHY...for Tim Russert and his family and for his NBC and MSNBC family who are obviously mourning. On the issues (time spent, public airwaves, biased media) I always have and still do agree with many here. But this is not the time. Where is your humanity? Where is the EMPATHY?

[defendandprotect]

423. You also seem to be living some daydream that ...

Russert's family is spending their mourning period checking out DU posts ---

What's wrong with you?

And, why would you be watching NBC/GE -- or MTP --- at any rate, except to MONITOR it?

We hear over and again that most here "get it" about the right-wing press ---

but this really is a shocking example that, indeed, quite a few here don't get it at all!!!

[YvonneCa]

173. It's not about timing...

...it's about HUMANITY. Bill Clinton had a good line about how, as a people, we always have things that divide us. But our strength as a country will be when we realize that our common humanity matters more.

There are times to fight, and issues to fight about that are most justified and necessary for our country. Death or serious illness of another person...be they male or female, of any race or religion, Democrat or Republican, etc... is a time when our common humanity should win the day. That shows our strength as a people. It's also how we win...whether it's an election, the war on 'terror', or our common future.

Some on DU have shown a tremendous lack of EMPATHY...for Tim Russert and his family and for his NBC and MSNBC family who are obviously mourning. On the issues (time spent, public airwaves, biased media) I always have and still do agree with many here. But this is not the time. Where is your humanity? Where is the EMPATHY?

[bvar22]

237. My compassion and empathy is for those who died in Iraq this weekend,

...not for those who put them there, and Russert was just a cog in the machine that put them there.


If the current festival of non-truths were limited to Russert the family man and friend, I would have no objection. Indeed, I can pay my respects. But the Media led canonization is attempting to present Russert at the model of Journalism, and THAT merits critical opposition from those of us who know what Russert did for a living, and what he was willing to do for his paycheck.

Where are your critical thinking skills?
Where is the line you do not cross?
How far will you go to participate in a festival of non-truths?

Maybe it is time for you to back away from the TV.
Question Authority.
Think for yourself.

[YvonneCa]

276. Any empathy for his son...

...or his wife? Is this addressed to me?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where are your critical thinking skills?
Where is the line you do not cross?
How far will you go to participate in a festival of non-truths?

Maybe it is time for you to back away from the TV.
Question Authority.
Think for yourself.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If so, it's pretty judgmental.

[defendandprotect]

424. Did NBC-GE happen to show even one SOLDIER'S COFFIN this weekend of mourning--???

[easttexaslefty]

278. Truth is subjective for the most part

Such black and white thinking..we can all have "different" truths

[kath]

455. "Truth is subjective for the most part"

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Swagman]

41. It's Keith Olbermann expressing bad taste. Despite others denying

it his posts are demanding a certain stance.

Olbermann is lashing out at others because he's lost a friend-and that ain't on.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. I Think If Someone Is In In Pain Because They Lost A Loved One Their Actions Can Be Excused

Empathy is part and parcel of being a liberal or at least it used to be...

[kath]

460. well, people in the reality-based community are in great pain because our country is being lost.

Pretty much been on life support since Dec 12, 2000 (how many of you even know what that date means) and getting worse since. (though one can argue about how bad it got when. Suffice it to say we're in very deep shit) We are in mourning, and we have good reason for our anger.

See tom_paine's very excellent post on this subject: sometimes inappropriate anger bubbling over out of our fear and revulsion over what is being done to our country. It's painful to be awake and see what is happening.


Will try to find link later.

[Medusa]

385. Was anyone holding a gun to his head?

forcing him to read Daily Kos? Seems that the OP is worried that someone hurt his feelings or pissed him off. So what? Russert pissed me off repeatedly. I'm sorry he's dead. I feel sorry for his wife and son. But it doesn't stop me from pointing out that he was a GOP butt boy on the Iraq war. come to think of it, KO was on then too, don't remember him or anyone else being anti-war. They were all gung-ho for it and if one of them died tomorrow, I'd remember that. A lot of us would. That doesn't make us horrible people, it doesn't make them horrible people either, it's just the truth. And I'd much rather have the truth told about me than a lie.

[bunnies]

42. Some people lack both empathy and basic social graces.

Hence the appalling comments lack of respect. Its embarrassing.

[SwampG8r]

44. not mine

i keep my bile in my liver

[ohtransplant]

You're spot on.

Anyone who has suffered loss knows/should know a decent period of mourning is not only appropriate but it's the least we can do. I've always thought being a Democrat means we care about people, kindness, fairness, empathy (if not sympathy). Let's not become what we reject.

Admittedly, I wasn't TR's biggest fan. That said, there will be plenty of time to make the case for and against his style, his politics, his complicity with a particular ideology. My point is there's a time and place for respect. His family, friends and co-workers deserve that.

All the best to you and yours. Peace.

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. To quote Voltaire:

'One owes respect to the living. To the dead, one owes only the truth.'

[kath]

162. Ooh, I like that!

But, Voltaire??? Who he? What teevee channel is HE on?

[Dukkha]

170. isn't he some goth rocker?

;)

www.voltaire.net

[kath]

356. Wow. A goth rocker, AND one who has a way with words.

A true Renaissance Man. Or something. :-)


I learned something here. Thanks.

[easttexaslefty]

279. Do you know the whole truth?

Did you really know everything about the man? Who are we to judge?

[mzmolly]

50. I am happy to recommend.

I remember a quote by Mudcat Saunders in which he said something close to "the only thing liberals are tolerant of is their own intellectual arrogance."

I'm a liberal of course, but at times I feel that is very descriptive.

It is one thing for DU-ers to have an opinion on Russerts journalistic integrity, it is another to demand that we all agree what about "despicable person" he was in the moments just after his death.

Have we no shame?

If O'Reilly or Limbaugh had passed, I could understand a bit of the rancor, but Tim Russert?

[bowens43]

54. Certainly all opinions that may offend someone , somewhere should be banned!!!!!!

[beachmom]

67. Who the hell called for anyone to be banned? That's strange, I fail

to see where I or anyone else said that.

Hey, I am 100% for free speech, but be reminded free speech has consequences. As in we can tell jerks that they are ..... being jerks.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

253. Somewhere should be banned?

Like what part of Texas exactly? :rofl:

[TheZug]

56. Save your Russert hatred for more deserving causes. The man is dead.

Was he perfect? I doubt any of the people who knew would say that he was. But he was well-loved, and I think that out of respect people could hold their fire, even if they didn't like him. If MSNBC's coverage is excessive, just remember that they're in shock and mourning. Now really isn't the time to level charges about their or anyone else's coverage, however justified in general such criticisms may be. Be respectful, be understanding, and let it pass. There will still be plenty of live journalists to criticize when it's over; no sense slamming dead ones.

Personally, while I didn't always agree with his approach, I found him an engaging personality, and almost always fair. I enjoyed watching the back-and-forths between him and MSNBC colleagues during election season, even if they at times deeply frustrated me. He was one of the few people I could still tolerate on TV news.

[defendandprotect]

430. I see more "hatred" in these endless "love him or shut up" threads .. .

than I have seen in the honest appraisals of Russert AS A JOURNALIST ---

[NashVegas]

57. Our Democracy Is More Important Than Keith Olbermann's Feelings

Or anyone else's for that matter.

Russert practiced the type of journalism that's bad for America, and as the DC bureau chief, he encouraged and influenced others to do the same.

One can have sympathy for his friends and family for their grief, but history demands we not allow the record to present such lies, about the quality of his work as the MSM have spent three days shoving in our faces, as fact.

He was a great guy, apparently, but he was nowhere near the league of Murrow, Conkrite, Moyers, and many others who spoke truth to power.

[beachmom]

73. Oh, pray do tell how being an ass on the internet is SAVING DEMOCRACY?

Very telling thread, this one is.

[NashVegas]

136. You Have Such Anger

Perhaps it would bring you some peace, to go light a candle for Mr. Russert.

[YvonneCa]

183. It's like the torture issue...

...wasn't about whether a terrorist deserved it, it was what it said about we, Americans.( Even McCain said that.) How we react to a person's death says things about us, as Americans, or as DU. It's about HUMANITY.

Bill Clinton had a good line about how, as a people, we always have things that divide us. But our strength as a country will be when we realize that our common humanity matters more .

There are times to fight, and issues to fight about that are most justified and necessary for our country. Death or serious illness of another person...be they male or female, of any race or religion, Democrat or Republican, etc... is a time when our common humanity should win the day. That shows our strength as a people. It's also how we win...whether it's an election, the war on 'terror', or our common future.

Some on DU have shown a tremendous lack of EMPATHY...for Tim Russert and his family and for his NBC and MSNBC family who are obviously mourning. On the issues (time spent, public airwaves, biased media) I always have and still do agree with many here. But this is not the time. Where is your humanity? Where is the EMPATHY?

[defendandprotect]

431. And only YOU have "humanity" . . . and those speaking truth about

NBC-GE and Russert have no idea of "empathy" . . . ????

Overall, this is shocking revelation of the trust being put in NBC-GE and its hosts --

if it wasn't so sad it would be humorous!

The HUMANITY that you should be considering has to do with the condition of our nation ---
an "illegal" war based on lies, assisted by right-wing corporate-press ---

and Global Warming ---
did you happen to see a SOLDIER'S COFFIN this weekend on NBC-GE --

or any discussion of the Mid-West as a further sign of the seriousness of Global Warming --- ???


Shocking!!!

[fascisthunter]

507. This is a HUGE reason America is falling apart

and fascism has been taking over.

[TexasObserver]

65. You have engaged in a broadbased smear.

Get down off your cross, you ain't Jesus.

You have engaged in a broadbased smear. You have posted an OP that is nothing but flamebait. Wouldn't it be great if everyone thought exactly as you think, harbored your same tendency toward emotional excess?

[beachmom]

70. Sorry, but I can't come even close to the "holier than thou" who CARE SO MUCH

MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE about Iraqi civilian deaths. I am sorry, but none of THEM have any right to call ME sanctimonious. I just say, waiting a freaking week to be vile, and suddenly I'M JESUS??!! Geez, it's not like I said if everyone did things MY WAY, there would be WORLD PEACE.

[TexasObserver]

77. You think it's not appropropriate to use his death to examine his life.

The problem is not those of us who talk about Russert's life work critically. It is those who think just because someone dies, all critical thought and speech about them should end.

[L0oniX]

260. Seconded ....it's flame baiting.

[TexasObserver]

289. Could the title call out DUers worse?

It's clearly flamebait, intended to be flamebait, and very successful as flamebait.

The language in the thread title is all one needs to read to know that the sole purpose of this thread is to bitch out those at DU who do not share the thread author's point of view.

[beachmom]

295. That is incorrect. It is incomprehensible to me that people would be so callous

in the wake of a man collapsing from a heart attack, leaving behind his wife, son, and Father who he loved so much. People weren't just critical of Russert, they were downright vicious. It was wrong, and I am stating my opinion on it. This is a discussion that is happening on Kos, too, and it is too important to be reduced to "flame bait". I am not hurling insults at people. I am simply showing that their lack of compassion was seen by friends of Tim Russert's; people who are in pain right now about his death.

[TexasObserver]

308. It's absolutely correct. I'm sure much is incomprehensible to you.

Like the part about how people on message boards discuss things on their minds, and other people - like you - throw a hissy fit about it because their opinions don't coincide with yours.

[alcibiades_mystery]

68. Finger-wagging scold strikes again

Soap Opera Hero dies, Leading beachmom to deep umbrage.

:rofl:

[kenny blankenship]

82. Keith Olbermann is watching you!

He knows what you did at your "mysteries". Shame!

[alcibiades_mystery]

135. I will hang my head!

:rofl:

[Eurobabe]

165. just another thread to hide.

:eyes:

[Zuiderelle]

72. Unfortunately, anyone who posted such drivel isn't going to feel shame for any reason over it.

Maybe some will, but what I saw here were a few blowhards who love reading anything that comes from their own fingers, and have zero regard for propriety. Not to mention that I now know who around here exaggerates their liberalism to the point that they actually believe that the media should be far-left instead of balanced.

RIP Tim Russert, you have my infinite respect for doing your job the exact way it should have been done. You will be remembered by wise people as a true journalist.

[WildEyedLiberal]

101. We seldom agree, but.... well said

Boy, did the nasty, self-important responses to this OP really prove beachmom's point or what? I'm not sure what's more pathetic: that these people simply can't restrain themselves from pissing on Russert's grave, or that they think doing so makes them some kind of truth-to-power grassroots hero.

The 101st Fighting Keyboardists are not limited to right-wing freepers, unfortunately.

[scarletwoman]

319. Oh for gawdsakes! "He was a true journalist"?!? He was a paid propagandist for the MIC.

You apparently wouldn't know "true journalism" if it bit you on the ass.

I wouldn't say a thing about Tim Russert if it weren't for the kind of bullshit being said about him like your post.

His loyalties were clear, they were with the DC insiders and power brokers who happily fuck the rest of us over in order to enrich themselves and increase their power.

Russert wasn't on MY side, he was on the side of those in power who needed him to cover their asses.

I will NOT hold my tongue when I see the kind of poisonous and delusionary thinking going on that would call Tim Russert a "true journalist". He was in league with the enemies of our Republic in keeping the People deceived.

Just because he's dead doesn't change the facts of what he was about. I'd no sooner mourn his passing than I would the passing of Josef Goebbels. I'm sure Goebbels had friends and family who felt bad about his death, too. It still wouldn't make him worthy of public adulation.

sw

[defendandprotect]

336. Quite precisely --- !!!

This obsession to not only make Russert into something he certainly wasn't seems to be
accompanied by some religious/Hallmark sentiments that are also eerie ---

The biggest lesson we're learning here is a really, really frightening one ---
DU'ers who think that NBC/GE is giving them "news" ---

and DU'ers who really don't get that MTP isn't really the corporate-press working in
their interests ---

Really frightening --- !!!

[scarletwoman]

346. I know. It totally drives me nuts. Doesn't anybody know how to THINK anymore?

Demanding "respect" for a fucking con man. WTF is wrong with people?

sw

[kath]

371. It IS deeply disturbing, scarletwoman and d&p.

Probably the most disturbing time I've spent on a message board since Coup 2000. But my disturbance then was the grief, outrage and fear that I felt over the coup, and the lack of response to it. But at least the people on that board had rational responses to it.

It's frightening being amongst a group of people who seem to have no rational faculties (and who I'd thought were pretty clued-in). It shows just how far gone the populace is, and what very, very deep shit we're in.

Paine's "Common Sense" played a large role in educating the populace about the need for Revolution, then back in the Vietnam War days there were teach-ins. But I really don't know if anything like that would work these days... Heck, what percent of today's population could even *read* "Common Sense" and have any comprehension of it whatsoever?

[Zuiderelle]

394. Oh good, another bandwagon jumper, pretending in their false superiority to be smarter

that the rest of us. People who fault liberals for being smug elitists are referring to people like you. Your opinion of my intellect affects me not at all.

[scarletwoman]

401. Bite me.

[Zuiderelle]

402. With such well-crafted posts as that, you have finally convinced me of your infinite superiority.

[scarletwoman]

405. As if I give a shit what you think.

I've made several "well-crafted" posts on this thread. Read them or not, I really don't care.

Tim Russert was an enabler of the warmongers, if you are unable to see that then you are too ignorant to be bothered with.

sw

[defendandprotect]

438. Claims of "superiority" and "smarter than thou" comments run all thru

this thread and other "love him or shut up" threads like this one ---

so you're kind of speaking of yourself ---

Only YOU have "humanity" -- "empathy" -- "grace in the face of death" --- ?

What rubbish!!

If my opinion didn't effect you, you wouldn't be trying to attacking me with name-calling

like "elitist" and "smug elitists" ---

If you've been watching NBC-GE then it is shocking and unbelievable ---

and I think it would put every one of your comments and opinions in question.

[scarletwoman]

398. Thank you. It's good to know that I'm not entirely alone, I really appreciate your post. Well said!

I'm 58 years old, so I remember a different America than the one that we've had since Reagan. But it seems that many who are younger have no idea about how much they've been lied to and co-opted.

I don't have cable TV, I can't imagine why I'd pay money to be lied to. I suppose I'm an anomaly. On the other hand, I'm used to being an anomaly, I dropped out in the 60s and never looked back.

I know that telling the truth goes against the grain of the current culture -- even among so-called "liberals". Too bad. Doesn't change my determination to keep telling the truth.

sw

[defendandprotect]

441. Obviously, there's a lot about the "lies" and the "co-opting" which . . .

aren't understood --- !!!

A lot of work to do!
:)

[defendandprotect]

435. We're going to have to do a better 'TURN THE TVs OFF" message . . .

Allen Dulles was right -- "people don't read" ---

TV has been a great way to control the minds of citizens!!!

All of us here at DU are depending on a certain level of intelligence to get us thru ---

to THINK our way thru --- and now we figure out that many here are not getting it re

a corporate-press????


I'm a little behind in my reading myself --- but I think we need more comment on what's

being written and more encouragement to give up the PACIFIER of TV ---

and maybe you can start shortly with some comments from "Common Sense" ---

I don't know if I have a copy of it --- ???

Maybe, start a thread on it shortly . . . pick out a few things here and there for

discussion --- ???



:)

[defendandprotect]

419. Watching NBC-GE . . . ????

And, then, with all the discussion here at DU about the complicity of the corporate-press

in this war --- about the LIES one after another being told by the corporate-press ---

supposedly they "get it" . . . at least they tell you they get it ---

but in fact, it looks like they don't get it at all ---


I was just thinking tonight, that there are journalists I do semi-trust, but I will constantly

even comment about them that I am "cautious." That includes Olbermann and Bill Moyers!


Meanwhile, did you happen to notice an AD for a new right-wing cable program that looks like
it might be something along the lines of what Jon Stewart does?

I only saw it for a few seconds so I'm not sure what it was ---

[Zuiderelle]

360. What's frightening is how many people live in this alternate universe

where everything is a conspiracy, and where respecting the passing of a fine journalist is met with complete disdain.

[scarletwoman]

367. Tim Russert was NOT a "fine journalist", he was a whore for the establishment.

Gads, people like you just drive me to despair for the future of our country.

Get a fucking clue! People like Russert are on the side of the people who are fucking us over! Stop being an enabler!

Geesh!

sw

[Zuiderelle]

374. And people like you make me understand why people see the far-left as ridiculous.

Our candidate Obama has expressed his respect for the man as well. I suppose he's just an enabler for the right as well. So, I expect you won't be voting democratic this year huh.

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

382. All I had to do was read your screen name

Tells us all we need to know.

And your comment is really stupid. We aren't republicans, we don't march in lockstep with our candidates.

[Zuiderelle]

389. Saying that my comment is stupid is not much of an argument.

[proud2BlibKansan]

393. I did explain why it was a stupid comment

I guess you can't read.

[Zuiderelle]

395. You sound pretty naive. Hopefully you will realize one day how ridiculous you sound.

At least Tim Russert's passing has made it clear to me who I can now ignore.

[proud2BlibKansan]

513. LOL

No argument here.

[scarletwoman]

416. And people like YOU make me understand why so-called "liberals" are farking idiots.

I will vote for Obama, because that is what we lefties have always done -- we vote for the Democrat because the Democrat is the lesser evil.

That doesn't mean we buy into all the bullshit, it just means that we care enough to do what we can to forestall even greater catastrophre.

Obama is a politician, he HAS to make nice. I don't. As an informed citizen I have the luxury of speaking the truth.

Russert was a propagandist for the Establishment. That is the truth. I am under no obligation to honor such a person. My only obligation is to telling the truth. Even if a large majority of people are too deluded and/or ignorant to understand it.

sw

[Swamp Rat]

488. !!!

:loveya:

[defendandprotect]

443. If NBC-GE isn't a "conspiracy" I'm not quite sure what would be --- !!!

Do you understand GE's history --- ???

[Zuiderelle]

357. You invalidate everything else you have to say by making such a ridiculous comparison.

Goebbels? Whatever. Go live in your idealistic world where every journalist is so left of center and biased towards OUR side that the world spins off its axis for lack of balance.

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

363. My "idealistic world" is one in which in the 4th Estate calls the government out on their lies.

As opposed to enabling those lies to become the "conventional wisdom". Russert enabled government lies to become conventional wisdom.

It has nothing to do with "right" or "left", it has only to do with truth and falsehood.

Not that I expect anyone whose username is "PelosiFan" to understand such a distinction.

sw

[defendandprotect]

444. You mean "speaking truth to power" . . . dangerous idea, it seems . . .!!!

[scarletwoman]

456. Yeah. Gawd forbid that we would have the temerity to expect our "free press" to actually question

the motives of the Rulers. :eyes:

sw

[TwilightGardener]

74. Not sure why someone's death seems to bring out the worst in people--

especially on the internet. People here and elsewhere were acting like Anna Nicole Smith just died again, in their reaction to the tributes and coverage--compelled to make snarky comments and criticize. Instead, it was a guy who really did contribute a lot to the country's understanding of Washington, someone very familiar to all of us who enjoy politics, and someone who by all accounts was a truly good and decent human being. Sad that so many feel that they have to get their digs in when someone like Tim Russert dies.

[DeepModem Mom]

75. K&R -- I agree: The TV has an "off" click; we here are an infinitesimal minority...

of Americans. And, IMO, our constant negativity, our hatred does us no good either for ourselves or for our larger cause. It makes it easy for a wider world to dismiss us as nutcases.

[Doremus]

76. Those who knew and loved him have my sincere condolences, however...

However, the 48-hour-long (and running) public eulogy is starting to border on the ridiculous. I didn't work with him but I talked to him once years ago and he was a great guy. Enough!

Meanwhile, this man's passing will be but a 1-minute sound bite on NBC news, if he's mentioned at all:



Robert ''Robby'' Stamps, one of 13 students shot by Ohio National Guardsmen during a Vietnam War protest May 4, 1970, at Kent State University, has died of complications from pneumonia.

Mr. Stamps, 58, died Wednesday in Tallahassee, Fla. A private funeral is scheduled for Monday at a friend's house. A memorial service is planned in San Diego.

Although the random bullet that struck him in the lower back colored his life for decades to come, Mr. Stamps lived an active professional life as a counselor, author, musician and inventor.

http://www.ohio.com/news/19952839.html



Our priorities are so fucked. :(

[Marie26]

83. Exactly. Why cause pain? nt

[Kolesar]

85. You need something better to do with your time ... eom

[Overseas]

86. Russert got 99% glowing coments and days of accolades on TV; can't there be any dissent?

Can't those of us who don't feel he was the most fabulous wonderful fair intelligent balanced incredibly honest and hard working journalist have a little space to express our frustration with the wall to wall laudatory coverage?

[high density]

108. There's a difference between dissent and hatred

Some people are acting like Tim Russert pressed the button that created the Iraq war and are trashing him as such. These people will never be satisfied. He was not the Senate, he was not the House, and he was not Bush.

[Overseas]

118. Hatred is a kind of dissent. There was hyperbole in the He Is Fabulous direction too.

The haters are just being hyper-emotional about what they perceived as his pro-war bias. I think he was too supportive of the administration also. I just didn't rage as much. And actually, many of the critiques included condolences for the family and friends of Mr. Russert.

All the finger-waving people saying those who intensely disliked Russert should not speak at all were out of line in my opinion. We needed a place to express our frustration while the adoration continued all around us.

There were lots and lots of Tim Russert is Fabulous threads for the finger-wavers to join to express their adoration for him.

And let us also not forget there are those who toss hateful comments into the fray to either enjoy the storm they create or deliberately stimulate anger against "those damn left wingers."

[easttexaslefty]

284. "History is cluttered with the

wreckage of nations and individuals who pursued this self defeating path of hate. .........."
Martin Luther King

[genna]

87. I believe in an open democracy and a period of mourning.

I don't think a lack of social manners and grace is a thing we should censor so we don't have to view it. Instead, I think the ability to criticize in the most loathsome and aberrant ways is a tribute to free speech especially the classless, tasteless, and unfeeling kind.


Having said that, I have honored the period of mourning by refusing to read that which would make me feel sick inside and watching some of the coverage. I think one way to grieve is to absorb oneself in every detail of another person's life in a way we don't individually celebrate a person while we are living. I've watched an overabundance of that when Reagan and others have died. I have tried to be respectful of the life loss and the life celebrated even when I don't agree with their policies and with their politics.


When Ted Kennedy was diagnosed and his sickness made public, I was sickened by the right's response but had a bad feeling that the same kind of oafish sentiment could be mirrored on the left given the sickness or the passing of someone the left does not like. I have not been disappointed or surprised the venal gripes about Tim Russert's flaws and shortcomings on the boards. Even when I have not bothered to open the threads, I have read the glee behind the titled threads.


I don't take on the visage of the offended for the sake of TR's family and friends in reading the gleeful threads. Instead, I just note with some despair that our democracy stands amongst a folk so divided that even the equalizing force of death cannot allow for us to take a step back and acknowledge the shortness life holds for us all. My grandmother used to say before her death, "Just keep living," when I brought a point that I thought was both wise and meaningful and would end any further discussion on a divisive point. She used to tell me what I wished and/or delighted most when it happened to someone else will inevitably happen to me or someone I love. She always said be humble when I won and be grateful when I lost because winning and losing ultimately work out to be the same thing in the long run.


I just hope Obama, in all his youthful swagger and hubris, can end some of this bloodletting. We really need a change in leadership, direction and focus because if the best we can do for the dead is berate them in death...

[TexasObserver]

88. Will you admit that the purpose of this thread is to attack DUers who don't agree with you?

This thread has only two purposes.

1. To satisfy your need to publicly castigate those at DU who do not share your view of what the proper response is to the death of Tim Russert,

and

2. To foist petty insults at the DUers who do not share your view of what the proper response is to the death of Tim Russert.

It's flamebait, designed to be flamebait, and serves no other purpose.

[Gman]

99. Whoooosh!! What the hell was that??

The OP went clear over your head, didn't it?

[kath]

102. plus the OP is so poorly constructed, you can't even tell who wrote it.

[kath]

104. beachmom, who the heck wrote the OP? Are these your words?

[Inuca]

110. Which part of block quotes don't you understand? n/t

[kath]

112. Okay, so all the stuff not in gray was written by beachmom? I had hoped not.

I call BS on this: "One post heartily recommended on DU by hundreds of DUers" - bs- there was no such thread, rec by "HUNDREDS". Please show us if there was.

I understand block quotes just fine. But it was a bit confusing what came from Kos and what was beachmom's florid prose. Pathetic.

[beachmom]

141. Evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3450703

148 Recs, less than 24 hours after his death.

[kath]

146. 148 is NOT hundreds.

jeebus h christ on a trailer hitch.

[TexasObserver]

236. That's evidence of a correct, sane, thoughtful statement.

I realize for the professional mourners among us, that is unacceptable, but nothing in life important gets done by such people. They're far too busy "feeling" to get anything done.

The statement from the other thread was:
"Russert exemplified everything that is wrong with journalism in America."

Russert did exemplify everything wrong in journalism in America, and his worship represents everything wrong with people who think with their emotions, not their brains.

[frylock]

317. that thread was spot on as well..

Russert exemplified everything that is wrong with journalism in America

of course, people will use any excuse to lord their so-called moral superiority over others. well played!

[kath]

168. to clarify, I was *not* agreeing with Gman.

*he* seems to be the one in over his head.

Thans for your posts, Texas Observer!

[TexasObserver]

244. Thanks. The "whoosh" was intelligent thought whizzing past him.

This is all about the difference between people who think with their brains, and those who think with their emotions. Some people simply operate primarily from an emotional state, and they tend to be addicted to DRAMA. They find DRAMA everywhere, because they're addicted to it. Mainly, they create it, and having done so, wallow like pigs in it.

[Raster]

229. I completely agree. I am sick and tired of the online morals and ethics police.

Everyone: Hands on the hip, wag that finger. That's right, you can do it.

How telling. KO wrote his comments in and about KOS. You inferred it was at DU, simply to lend credence to your control freak schoolmarm persona du jour. Stop it. I don't need you or anyone else to play Mother Superior.

[TexasObserver]

239. Mother Superior is right!

The arrogance and haughtiness of those who think their role in life is to chastise and chide others is the whole point. I don't give a rat's ass if it makes every one of them blow a gasket. I have never allowed such complainers to alter my conversation, and I'm not starting with the Emotion Police at DU. Good Lord, they go off once a week on some ridiculous excuse for revving their whines up to a fever pitch, always over some imaginary evil. In that sense, they're much like our enemies, the Republicans, who love nothing better than having indignation, and talking nonstop about it.

[beachmom]

292. No. It was an OP to express my shock at the ugliness displayed here.

We had our own discussion in the JK forum, where people aired their views on Russert's style of journalism. A lot of us weren't fans, but we all expressed sadness and shock at his untimely death. What was happening OUT HERE and on Kos and elsewhere in the lib blogosphere was something else; something downright ugly. This is not about "disagreement", but about common decency, something too many people here and elsewhere did not show. The final straw for me was finding Keith's comments. It's like saying mean things about somebody behind their back, and realizing they were right behind you and heard every word. I am embarrassed by many of those posts, simply because I am a member of this community, too.

[TexasObserver]

297. Sure it was. That's why you attacked them as "sanctimonious Russert haters" spewing "bile"

Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

You created a title sure to inflame and act as a lightning rod for all on both sides of this issue. You did so because you chose to do so. You wanted to lecture and condemn, and that's what you have done.

[beachmom]

313. Russert burn in hell!! is bile in my book. "Who gives a shit" in reaction to his death is bile.

I am sorry, but stop digging yourself a hole defending anti-social behavior.

[TexasObserver]

391. Lady, you're so far down the rabbit hole you've lost all sense of reality.

That probably happens a lot with you.

[defendandprotect]

339. Correct --- and this has reached the level of obsession with those who

want to control what is said about their favorite newsreader --- !!!

And THESE are the people we're counting on to understand what is actually happening in the
nation??? My, my . . . !!!

[woo me with science]

89. Nice post.

Unfortunately it will only make the grave pissers cream themselves from all the attention.

[DemocracyInaction]

98. Put Your Brains Back on "Focus" Mode

Tim is dead. Tim will be yesterday's news in a week (and even Tim knew that). If you want to get all churned up, why not ask "who is going to replace him at NBC"? There's an election to to be "thrown" in just a few months. Who will emerge to do the job? It's business, folks..."democracy" is just business. The choice will have to be someone who has already been lionized. My guess..Brokaw (sp.?) will be rolled out until mid-November.

[Gman]

100. Thank you for showing there is still some maturity and goodness here at DU

From what I've observed since Friday, the vile comments made about Russert seem to come from a lot of the same people that made GD: P such a rotten place.

[ellacott]

103. In total agreement

This was not a proud moment at DU. I was shaking my head reading some of the threads on this board.

My heart went out to his family, friends and colleagues. Their loss was on a personal level and it is sad that a level of wisdom and empathy could not be shown on this board.

Some of the most touching stories were about the personal things he did for people. I wonder how many lives the average person has touched. It appears that the majority of the criticism is directed towards his reporting on the lead up to the war. Many Dems. voted for the war including recent Presidential candidates. There wasn't this level of criticism towards them.

People are complaining about the wall to wall coverage this weekend. Are you so angry because you missed your prison lock up show? MSNBC has very little programming on the weekend except a few hours in the morning. What's wrong with changing the channel?

[a la izquierda]

174. Tee hee hee...

I had just about cleared out my ignore list after the Primaries when, whaddya know, a bunch of prickish asses that I'd probably want to punch in real life jumped right back on (and I'm not a violent person).

Prison lock up shows...haha. I was actually wondering if some people on here were too damn lazy to look for the remote. You know, PBS has good programming on as does National Geographic.

[ellacott]

197. I like the hgtv shows

:)

MSNBC on weekend afternoons has never been appointment TV for me.

[Hutzpa]

106. Needed to be said

hopefully it will resonate with people.


:thumbsup:

[kath]

109. One good thing about threads like this:

they show you who the ignorant DUers are.
It's shocking how many DUers have been assimilated by the propagandistic media environment, and many of them stubbornly keep their heads in the sand. It's been eye-opening, in a sad, pathetic way.
There are the ignorant, the willfully ignorant, and the freakin' stubbornly willfully ignorant (I, WI and FSWI) None so blind as they who will not see.
Then there's the category with no logic skills whatsoever, who keep spouting the same logical fallacies over, and over and over. The emoters, who have no interest in learning anything, or in engaging in any critical thinking whatsoever.

jeebus, it's been a revelation.

[Inuca]

111. ANd then of course there are those that

think that they are the fountain of all truth, and oh, so MUCH smarter than anyone else, especially those pitiful souls that happen to disagree with them.

[TexasObserver]

115. Critical thought is our North Star.

We favor reason and logic. Others favor wallowing in their emotions, as they identify with the family of the deceased. We can empathize with the survivors of the family, but we do not believe doing so compels us to ignore who Russert was and what he did while living.

The finger waggers and nags finger wag and nag because that is who they are. If it isn't Russert's death, it will be something else. Their need to disgorge their emotional angst is virtually an addiction, and they must feed it daily with indignation and outrage.

[Marie26]

142. There is a happy medium

Acknowledging the way MTP was often used by the Bush Adm & not being an asshole laughing at a man's death. It is possible.

[kath]

149. There was extremely little laughing or pissing or dancing - to say there was is utter bullshit.

just people trying to get the truth out and perhaps wake up some of the brainwashed.

[Marie26]

190. Of course there are.

I've been around DU long enough to see the grave-dancers. It doesn't matter what celebrity just died - Russert, Anna Nichole Smith, or even Steve Irwin. An anonymous Internet army will arise to laugh, spew hatred & contempt, and be as big an asshole as possible. For you to characterize them all as noble defenders of truth is BS. Like I said, it's possible to criticize Russert or MTP w/o being a hateful troll; it's just that many don't seem to know the difference. Personally, I think it's in better taste to give it a week of respect before launching the attacks, but don't have any objection to the fair criticisms. The gleeful ghoulish wing of DU, though, is really the dregs of humanity IMO.

[ourbluenation]

436. you were one of the worst, imo. u called him a whore. for some reason you felt compelled,

utterly compelled, to make sure people praising the man were "woken up". as if. i cannot understand such a compulsion or the timing of it.

[scarletwoman]

453. Well, he WAS a whore. He sold his services to the Ruling Class, he comforted the comfortable.

His job was to ensure that the Conventional Wisdom and the Establishment was protected and preserved, and he did it well.

This thread is really an eye-opener. It's truly amazing to me to witness how many DUers are falling all over themselves to kiss the boots of the Ruling Class. No wonder our country is so fucked up.

sw

[kath]

476. you're one of the most hopeless.

categorized as FSWI - Freakin' Stubbornly Willfully Ignorant.

NEVER did I say I was glad he was dead, or anything even remotely close to it. I'm sure I said at least once, in the early threads, that he died too young.


FYI, the term "mediawhore" has been in use for YEARS. There was an excellent website which popularized the term, and the loss of said site is still much mourned by many in the reality based community. The site had so much influence that it eventually even got mentioned in the mainstream "press" -- only they misheard the name or something and it got titled "Media Horse Online" in an article by some mainstreamer. That was a hoot!
Mediawhore is a great, pithy word - says a lot with only 10 letters. Good shorthand for media-person who is a right wing shill, water-carrier for the GOP, stenographer of White House blast faxes, and other less savory terms.

So sorry the term offends your delicate, highly moral sensibilities.

Slumber on.

[Duncan Grant]

182. I'm surprised by the moralistic outrage.

Some attempt should be made to ensure that choice exists for ourselves and others in how we respond to events. These subjective and moralistic outrages about the "appropriate" response to Russert's death are far more detrimental to intelligent discourse than any perceived "grave-dancing" posts, imho.

Obviously, Russert has been idealized. Maybe the moralistic posts about appropriate behavior are an uncritical response to the disillusionment? :shrug:

[TexasObserver]

259. Agreed. It's emotional fascism.

Which is to say, there's only one acceptable response to something like Russert's death, and anyone who doesn't share that response is just an evil, heartless person who deserves great disdain.

I am reminded in moments like this one that many here are not progressive at all. They have a bundle of values that have some commonality with DU, but they lack the open mind and thoughtful approach to dissecting matters that typify the true progressive.

Progressives don't push censorship or censure of differing thoughts. Some here have no concept of what that means, however.

[Duncan Grant]

320. Thankfully this is the internet and not real life.

Some will go to great lengths to soothe their incapacity to tolerate subjective dissonance. Emotions don't win arguments - ever.

Overwrought admonishments of grave-dancing could be found here when Jerry Falwell died. That told me a lot.

Be careful out there... :hi:

[kath]

432. but how long before it does seep into real life?

:scared: :scared:

There was a blogger named David ____ (name escapes me) with a site called Orcinus, where he documented instances of violent fascistic attacks/threats, because he shared these fears. Very bright guy. This was probably at least 3-5 years ago, when I used to post on Salon's TableTalk. He posted there as well. I wonder if he's still out there.

[jgraz]

113. In his grief, Keith is making this about him. I hope he snaps out of it

For god's sake, read that first article that Keith wants us to be "embarrassed" about. It was a clear-eyed, sober assessment of one of Russert's major failures as a journalist -- the kind of thing you'd expect to get from a "real" reporter after the death of a public figure.

Once Keith gets through the grieving process, I hope he posts an apology. The DailyKos is not his personal playground, and posters should not be thinking of his emotional state before speaking the truth.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

114. oh spare me

[JuniperLea]

121. A lot of people are out of control on DU in general

I don't agree with a lot of the over-the-top hating I've seen toward Russert, but I am wholeheartedly against the praise where is was not warranted. For the most part, I tried to follow that good old, tried and true advice Momma gave me when I was no taller than the kitchen table... If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything. I didn't have much nice to say, so I said very little.

I had coffee with Tim Russert and Meet the Press every Sunday. That doesn't mean I agreed with how he conducted his business. In such situations, it's best to think in basic human terms and say, RIP, fellow human being, and leave it at that.

One cannot compromise on the truth without being hypocritical and disingenuous. One cannot compromise on the truth due to fear of what others will say without being hypocritical and disingenuous. One cannot embellish or detract from the truth without these things either. We have to ask ourselves what is more important. Shielding the ignorant minds of those who would speak ill of truth, or speaking truth. I choose to err, if it is to err, on the side of the latter.

[hedgehog]

122. One more time........

(I inserted the italics and bold letters)

For whom the Bell Tolls
John Donne

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From "Devotions upon Emergent Occasions" (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris -


"Now, this bell tolling softly for another, says to me: Thou must die."

PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.

The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member.

And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.

As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come, so this bell calls us all; but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness.

There was a contention as far as a suit (in which both piety and dignity, religion and estimation, were mingled), which of the religious orders should ring to prayers first in the morning; and it was determined, that they should ring first that rose earliest.

If we understand aright the dignity of this bell that tolls for our evening prayer, we would be glad to make it ours by rising early, in that application, that it might be ours as well as his, whose indeed it is.

The bell doth toll for him that thinks it doth; and though it intermit again, yet from that minute that this occasion wrought upon him, he is united to God.

Who casts not up his eye to the sun when it rises? but who takes off his eye from a comet when that breaks out? Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings? but who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world?


No man is an island, entire of itself;
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less,
as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were:
any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind,
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee.

Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbours.

Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did, for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it.

No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction.

If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current money, his treasure will not defray him as he travels.

Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it.

Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another's danger I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.

[GeorgeGist]

127. My condolences to Tim Russert's integrity and those few ...

who knew it when he was still a pauper.

[bvar22]

370. LOL. Well Said!

:thumbsup:

[kath]

372. Bwah!

that post needs a DUzy.

[redqueen]

128. "sanctimonious Russert haters"... UGH!

KO is not God.

Maybe if the deification of St. Timmy wasn't so all-fired over the top, there wouldn't be this urge to try to ... you know ... maybe point out why it's kind of fucked up?

[AlCzervik]

138. i read the op several times, i still can't figure out what the story is.

daily kos reflects poorly on du, du started it and Kos picked up the ball, we all suck? KO is mad at du or Kos or both?

I'm confused. Not a Ruusert fan or foe btw.

[beachmom]

148. Comments on Kos and DU were similar. KO only has a DailyKos account, but

the same lesson applies here. In my opinion, of course.

[jgraz]

159. The story is that teh internet hurt someone's feelings. Film at Eleven.

[kath]

241. It WAS really well written, wasn't it? Brilliant.

I couldn't figure out what the point was either.
But coming from someone who insists that 148 equals "hundreds", are you surprised?

Is the writer of the OP some big shot at daily Kos or something? All this crap like "We have had a very revealing weekend on the lefty blogs" and "For SHAME, liberal bloggers!!!!" sounds like it was coming from a very high horse indeed.
.

[AlCzervik]

242. i don't read kos or huffpo save for the occasional article. It's not like we're short on

opinion pieces around here!


:D

[kenny blankenship]

156. Really now? Maybe you'd like to say that to his face?

Go ahead tough guy - he's waiting!
(Keith's gonna keep his eye on you.)

[redqueen]

169. Honestly...

It's funny seeing posts berating others for lack of maturity with that kinda crap in there.

[Jakes Progress]

329. OMG!!! Keith is going to stare at me.

If I don't be good, he might bloviate at me. Oh noes.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ellacott]

140. Very true

This was a low point for DU and the other liberal blogs.

One of the pro-Hillary blogs was cheering his death. They felt this was karma. They also are very glad that Ted Kennedy got brain cancer. This was also God working on their behalf.

[Jakes Progress]

328. Here we go.

This is the crux isn't it. Tim hated Hillary so, by virtue of that attribute, he must be god. We will forgive him every little bit of aid he gave to Cheney and the war because he hated Hillary. Don't you guys stand for anything other than hating Hillary?

[AlCzervik]

137. This stuff was posted on Daily Kos? Did you post this same op over there?

[ellacott]

139. Stuff was also posted on this board

[proud2BlibKansan]

186. Thanks for the links!!

:sarcasm:

[ellacott]

194. Is your mouse broke?

no sarcasm

[proud2BlibKansan]

196. Whatever

There has been one link posted in this thread to one thread here on DU. ONE. And that link wasn't posted in the post I responded to.

What we have here is a complaint about Kos and what those people are saying. I don't post on Kos and I rarely read it. So why should I worry about what goes on over there?

This is just getting way beyond silly. Russert was no saint. Several of us (including me) have posted threads including links to PROVE that he carried water for the Bush administration in the lead up to the war.

And please forgive me if I find the deaths of 4100 American soldiers and one million Iraqis far more tragic than Russert's.

on edit, here is my thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3456344

[ellacott]

203. Why can't you read the boards?

Seriously, I have seen many posts that the OP is talking about. No one had to provide links. You have Gen Discussion and this board, Friday to today. Why is it that you can't read? It's not that hard to go back 3 days.

Of course Russert was no saint. No one is a saint. That's not the point. I believe you are elevating him. There are many people in this country who helped this administration. You had Presidential candidates who voted for it and didn't even read the intelligence. Why are you accessing more blame on the TV guy than on our elected officials who showed no back bone?

[proud2BlibKansan]

209. And you need to read my posts again

Sheesh.

[ellacott]

214. I've read your posts and do understand

I agree that he dropped the ball big time regarding the war, no argument. I just think so many more did also.

[proud2BlibKansan]

258. I am not denying he was not alone.

And when those other reporters die, if they are canonized, I will bring up their cheerleading for the war also.

[kath]

247. not only ignorant, but lacking grammatical skills.

[ellacott]

517. What's ignorant is spending time critiquing someone's grammar skills on a message board

Especially when there was nothing wrong. I guess that happens when you have nothing better to do. Oh well.

[kath]

543. Nothing wrong?

mmmkay.
Might want to look at it again...

[ellacott]

544. No

We are not in English class and for you to be so uptight about grammar(on a message board)is rather funny.

Poor thing, your mission is to make sure everyone conjugates their verbs properly. I can only imagine what it's like if you go on Myspace.:nuke:

[Reterr]

151. Oh the irony of someone who entitles a post "Grow the f**K up" preaching maturity to others

If they (Melody Townsel) really want to make a point to someone, try to get others to see things their way and really sort of clean up dialogue, it is probably a good idea not to talk down to them and screech at them. People respond much better when they are not talked down to.
As someone on the other side of this Russert issue, the posts I have seen that most make an impression on me are the polite, thoughtful requests for civility, by people who are normally civil themselves, like say H20 Man (I hope this isn't a call-out-I respect him a lot).

The sanctimony has not been limited to one side.
The rudeness has not been limited to one side ("You miserable, pathetic piece of shit-you are not even human" Really? Someone is not even human for making a dumb post on a message board? Where do these guys place say pedophiles or rapists on the not-even-human scale here then? If rude posts on a message board alone make someone sub-human and without any redeeming value as a human being :eyes:?). The first post I ever saw on the Russert thing on Friday evening had a nice little lock next to it, because it was a screed calling all the "Russert-haters" "not even human", "worthless pieces of shit" and other charming stuff like that.

Some of it as evinced by some posts upthread, do honestly seem to be just about some poster's need to sounds superior, classy whatever.

I am sorry Keith is hurt and I respect his pain. That is the reason, I never look up people I respect or admire too much on the internet and avoid the comments sections on many news articles. It is the internet-it is human nature to a great extent and to be expected that people will say some things that will offend others.

That being said, in my honest opinion, there are a lot of posts about Russert that are respectful and are not about grave dancing, but pointing out his flawed coverage of many issues. These posts are just being honest by my light and theirs (maybe not yours, but opinions vary on this clearly). It is not unusual given that he was a public personage.

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

525. Why should I care if Keith's feelings are hurt?

Does he care about mine? Did he care about the invasion of Iraq? He sure didn't at the time. Never said a word against the invasion. Because he wanted a job and keeping that job was more important to him than speaking real truth to power. Sure it's easy to do now that Bush's ratings are in the toilet but where was he then? Nowhere. Sorry Russert's dead and gone. Loved MTP. Liked him even if he was a neocon asshole. But I don't give a shit about Keith Olbermann's feelings and will not watch what I say here about him in case he happens to be reading. If he wants to play in our sandbox let him learn to take the criticism or go home.

[Rowdyboy]

152. Your thread represents my feelings more eloquently and politely than

I possibly could at this time. Thank you for speaking fro me.

[loyalsister]

158. Thank you

I took personal offense to the mean posts, so I greatly appreciate your sensitivity.

Right before I read the headline, I mean barely hours, I had been informed that my own father- also 58 had been hospitalized with severe pancreatitis.

Apparently, it was an inevitability because of long term alcohol abuse. He will be at constant risk of having a recurrance considering alcohol abuse.
They have to deal with the immediate problem and has to go through detox. I knew there would eventually be health problems, but I never counted on this.

I had been thinking these past few days and wondering and worrying whether he finally drank himself to death because I have doubts as to whether he will quit.

I took those comments personally, because It took a very short step to put myself in the shoes of the Russert family.

I knew what I would want and what I would not want and what I saw. It broke my heart.

[semillama]

163. Good post. In terms of the people who are calling you out in the responses:

"Throw a stone into a pack of dogs, and the one who yelps is the one that got hit."
-African-American proverb.

[Duncan Grant]

198. I thought the "stone" allegory was about glass houses.

Seems to me there's room for more than one orthodoxy here. There's also room for multiple experiences and opinions regarding Russert's death.

[liberalhistorian]

166. Thank you so much for posting,

and so eloquently, too. I, too, was really sickened by the almost gleeful grave-dancing that was so disgusting and so uncalled-for. And yet so many here who sold tickets to the grave dancing would be the first to jump up and down and yell and scream about republicans and freepers doing the same thing. The low road always gets you covered in mud.

[backscatter712]

172. My objections aren't really with Russert.

Tim Russert wasn't a bad person. He was your basic fairly decent human being, though I, just like most of us, only knew him as a face on TV. I didn't agree with him 100% of the time, but that's life.

I do object to the media's coverage of his death - like I mentioned, it seemed like the media's taking his death and making a huge circus out of it, turning the cable news channels into 24/7 Tim Russert is dead coverage, with endless tributes and remembrances and replays of his moments, on and on. It just seems incredibly crass the way the media was overcovering this and neglecting coverage of things like the midwest floods. I would have preferred it if the coverage was more low-key.

[Skidmore]

189. Thank you. I posted a thread on GD pointing

out the focus on coverage of this man's and the minimal coverage that was given to the flood. I live in the flood zone and would have liked to see some immediate attention given to the dire straits so many of my fellow Iowans find themselves living in. This was being done for a while by all cable news channel and not just MSNBC. It does not make me a "Russert hater" any more than not agreeing with HRC makes me a "Hillary hater," which is where some seem to track to these days.

We need help out here. This disaster is far from over and many thousands of lives are being immediately affected and millions more will be affected in the long run. This will impact the nation as a whole.

[FlaGranny]

192. You know, I thought

the coverage was excessive too, but then I thought to myself that all these eulogies and tributes were from his friends and colleagues. If he was as personally loved as they say, then I can't say I blame them for wanting to use their voices to pay him tribute. I think they overdid it as far as viewers are concerned, but it seemed like a more or less genuine outpouring of love for the man. Then, also, EVERYTHING is not about politics for most people. Sometimes people really do love people they don't always agree with. I can give them a break for overdoing it. The coverage WAS more on a par with a president's death, though - and like I said - overdone.

[mcg]

531. They are using the occurence of his death for propaganda purposes,

all this talk about how great a journalist he was,
and by implication, how great they are.

[crankychatter]

175. "insufficient enthusiasm" is the NEW "Hate"

I'm holding out for Sixty becoming the NEW Forty

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. This is about Kos. Why not post there?

:shrug:

Why do some DUers believe that what happens on other blogs is a reflection of what happens here? Sheesh.

[AlCzervik]

184. that's about it, but i guess there was one thread here that was rec'd.

i think it's about Kos. I think there has already been plenty of threads about Russert good and bad, grave dancers, and broad brush smears. i'm done.

[kath]

255. because they're not particularly well-endowed with critical thinking skills.

Logic is also sorely lacking (if I hear "he pissed off both sides, so that means he was a fair and excellent journalist" one more time, my head might explode.) It's all about emotion, and moralizing. They don't want to read anything informative. It's all about "feeling it in their gut". (Gee, who does that remind you of?)

[FlaGranny]

177. Thank you.

I don't like it when people say vile things like that about someone who has died. Unfortunately though, some people are just naturally hurtful and insensitive. Nothing much will change them. We have our share here. Hateful people, in the long run, only hurt themselves. KO is a smart man and I'm sure he knows that most people have kinder souls. I'm also sure he knows that the rudest and most insensitive are always the loudest. These are the kinds of people who will never feel true joy in their lives. Pity them beachmom, pity them also Keith Olbermann, and pity them also, friends and family of Tim Russert.

[The Backlash Cometh]

181. I can see both sides.

Not going to go further than that.

[JackDragna]

185. While I take no joy in anyone's passing..

..I wholeheartedly disagree with giving anyone time to mourn by refusing to criticize the man at his death. In fact, now is the best time, when his career is in the public limelight and those who only tangentially paid attention to the media are now aware of him, is the best time to lay out how terrible he was. No matter how badly Mr. Olbermann might feel for his friend, it cannot be understated the pernicious effect Russert's work had on the public when it came to the Iraq war, arguably the most important political issue of our time. He fawned over the president, promoted ignorance and slandered those who disagreed with the rah-rah jingoism in the country. My sympathy lies not with Mr. Russert, but with the families of untold dead Iraqis and Americans who were failed by Russert and the fourth estate in general. He was a prime example of how shallow, soiled and sensationalist the mainstream news media has become. No moment, even after the man's death, should cause those of us who see the great evil of which Russert has been a part to remain silent. Perhaps, before becoming so obstinate, Mr. Olbermann should realize people are venting their frustrations about a man who has, in a small way, been a cog in the machine that has Mr. Olbermann has railed against all these years.

[Duncan Grant]

227. An "appropriate" critique, Jack.

I appreciate your thoughtful post. :thumbsup:

[kath]

263. And Jack, it's important to remember that Russert's GOP-shilling goes much farther back than the

Iraq occupation. It goes back at *least* to the "Clinton's Cock! Clinton's Cock!" era, and it wouldn't surprise me to hear to that it goes back to all the screeching about Whitewater, Hillary's commodities trade, etc. Also don't forget that Russert was a major player in spreading lies and exaggerations about Gore.


You've posted some good stuff here the past few days. Thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

266. AMEN!!

:applause:

[specimenfred1984]

187. Oh I'm happy alright, happily informed

You go ahead and stay deluded as hell just as your puppet master propagandists want you to.

[kath]

268. ya got that right, fred.

even at DU, a HUGH number are just putty in the hands of the propagandists. Shows just how skillful the puppet masters are. Assimilation percentage at alarming proportions.

[dbonds]

191. I agree, but I blame peoples attitudes on the training they have had over the last 20 years.

All the pundits play politics like a football game. You choose a side and you berate the other guy. If someone doesn't appear to be on your side then he is good for fodder. There is no concept of anyone not being in one camp or the other, no concept of tact, no concept of getting along - just fight fight fight. Throw in 7 years of hell from bushco and all the pent up anger and you can see at least the mindset that throws these tactless attacks. I don't agree with the attacks and don't support them, but don't think it makes all the progressive people bad that do it. I think a progressive at heart wouldn't say those things under different circumstances - it just isn't part of progressive nature.

[Rudyabdul]

195. Truth is,

Tim Russert came from a good family. From the way he tells it, he was raised in the old school way. He was a good husband and father who provided for his family and instilled values into his children. He had friends who saw him not only as a good friend but also a good person.

Tim Russert He made many accomplishments in his life-time. One of the most known was his career as a journalist for many years. Many called him the "citizen Journalist" because of his non-partisan reporting.[br />

Unfortunately, in the last 8 years, instead of using his journalistic calling to bring truth to power, he, like many of his peers abused it by catering to corporate interests; and made millions off of it.

Throughout the Bush Adminstration, Tim Russert became a media whore who took part in the mass media mindfuck to perpetuate war with the parallel interest of corporations. He helped deceive millions of people into believing that Iraq was involved in 9/11 and that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He helped comprise “The War Machine” a proven enemy of the US Constitution and all of humanity.

After the truth came out did he show any regret? Did he apologize to the citizens whose trust he betrayed? I think not.

To be fair, throughout this election cycle, Russert's reporting have been non-biased. He seemed to really enjoy himself in the short time he had left as a journalist. It's terrible that he had to go at a time that history is being made.

Godspeed Tim! May you rest in peace.

[ailsagirl]

201. kick kick kick

[PatSeg]

202. Not all thoughts

need to be verbalized, but it appears there are many here who have no problem expressing any and every thought regardless of whether it is appropriate or civil. Very sad.

[Rhiannon12866]

204. Well, I made my post on Friday, when I first heard the bad news.

And I'm a member of KOEB, think Keith is the best we have on TV, so I hope that he saw my thread, feeling terrible that Tim Russert was gone. I tried to explain to those who didn't agree with me. I certainly didn't always agree with Tim Russert, felt he gave Dick Cheney and John McCain a pass, but I sure sympathized with his co-workers who were mourning him, since I've been though the same thing.;(

And my heart goes out to both his father, whom he so admired, wrote a book about his Dad, and the young son who he loved so much. Nobody's perfect. And Tim asked some pretty rough questions of those whom I most admired, like John Edwards, but Edwards stepped up to the plate, was honest, and that was a great show. I watched that one twice. Tim Russert did us a great service, and I truly do mourn him, and sympathize with his family. I've been there. ;(

My post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3449351&mesg_id=3449351

[kath]

273. you hope that Keith saw your thread.

Oy.

just oy.

[Rhiannon12866]

331. I just admire Keith, is all.

He speaks the truth on TV, which doesn't happen all that often, these days. And I'm sure glad that we're on the same side about this. We have disagreed, but not often...:-)

[AnnieBW]

457. Exactly!

You may not always have agreed with Russert, but I feel sympathy for his family and his colleagues. He wasn't perfect by any means, but he was always smart and informative. I've also lost colleagues that I was close to, although not as suddenly as Russert. It's a tremendous shock for everyone involved. You have to realize that Timmeh knew EVERYBODY in politics and journalism. He mentored a lot of people. Those people are expressing their grief on the air because that's what they do.

If you don't feel sorry for his untimely death, you can at least muster some sympathy for his wife, son, and father, who have to bury him.

[Rhiannon12866]

567. Thanks for a very lovely post. This is exactly how I feel.

And I admire his young son greatly for agreeing to be interviewed in what is probably the darkest time in his young life. I sure couldn't have done it, especially at that age. Tim did a good job with his son...:-)

[oldskool]

205. Some people have no shame.

If you like Tim Russert or not there is no reason to be a
scumbag about it. He made alot of people look outside the box.
Although I did not know him personally, He knew
history,politcs, etc... and made some people smarter because
of it. He was an icon to alot of people and it is a shame that
during people's mourning some people are so heartless and and
shameless about it.

[frylock]

208. i can't wait to see all the dick-sucking and hand-wringing when cheney or shithead passes..

this never speak ill of the dead policy is straight up bullshit. calling russert out for his war mongering is hardly hatred.

[kath]

277. ahh, but it IS hatred. If

If you function at a really low, childish, emotive level, that is. It's SOOOOOO hard to make such difficult distinctions!

[Ganja Ninja]

210. I kind of thought the coverage was was going a little overboard

on Friday night but it was understandable coming from NBC. Then when it was still going on Saturday morning I thought "jeez you'd think the Pope had died".

I have nothing but sympathy for his family, friends and co-workers. That being said he was a prominent part of a media that has let this country and the world down badly over the last 30 years. There was plenty of room to criticize Tim Russert's part in that. It was only natural for those critics of his work to come out and spout off given his deification by that same media.

[Phx_Dem]

212. Some of the posts about Russert

were disgraceful and classless. It doesn't matter that maybe you didn't like him; it's about respect for those who did and those who were grieving for him. It's just basic decency. The point in criticizing someone's position or behavior is, generally, to state your opposition and open a debate; perhaps affect a change. But the point is moot if the person is dead.

While it's perfectly fine to disagree with Russert's position or even to dislike him, it's appropriate to wait a respectful period of time before pubicly expressing those views.

If Rush Limbaugh dropped dead tomorrow, I certainly wouldn't be grieving or, frankly, give a shit. But I would NEVER post disrepectful comments about him right after he died. Just because he's an asshole (although Russert definitely was NOT), doesn't mean I have to become one as well. While some people deserve no respect (Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.), humanity dictates that we respect those who are grieving; and sometimes that is as simple as remaining silent for a short period of time.

I feel bad that Olbermann and God knows who else read those tasteless posts.


(Mrs. Phx_Dem)

[ooglymoogly]

213. sanctimony is as sanctimony does.....

with over a million and counting innocent dead Iraqi's, to say nothing of our own 4 plus thousand dead and counting and our bankrupt country....I think not. Let us not forget bile has ingredients and those many dead in this case are its main ingredient; Bile is not just plucked from the air and for no reason. There are those in places of power who drummed us into this catastrophe and who were instrumental in its happening and TR was one of them...so you know where you can put your sanctimony. For the past three days 24/7 all we have heard about, as if the corporate media were on crack;...that TR was a grand fair and balance "journalist"...well many of us know better and it is appropriate that we set the record straight. When the truth is portrayed as bile we are in serious danger of losing our faculties.

[miles 2 go]

215. I didn't post anything about Timmy here or that other site

but I don't think that people should have to worry about what they post in terms of KO or anyone else reading it.

[mrs_p]

217. simply

thank you

edit: one more thing to say - i was telling my husband about the recent posts on this site and he said something to the effect that this seems like the same kind of bile the right wingers spew...

[Miss Chybil]

221. I wish I could recommend this post a thousand times...

and then a million times more.

[kath]

281. Wow.

Then you've *really* earned a spot on the Ignorant List.

[Miss Chybil]

365. And you've earned a spot on

my "Ignore-ant" list. :-)

[kath]

425. Cute. a play on words.

[marshall]

223. The over the top mourning has invited lampooning

I liked Russert. His interviews were skillfully prepared for and well done. But the nonstop coverage has gone way past the Anna Nicole Smith stage. They will be ridiculing it on Saturday Night Live and the late night talk shows will have a field day.

[XtraProudDem]

231. No they won't...

And do you want to know why?

Because that would be in REALLY BAD TASTE.

SNL is on NBC.

[LWolf]

224. Why would I care if KO read anything I wrote?

I've never heard anything he's said. The only thing I remember T. Russert for is not positive. He sandbagged my candidate of choice with the ridiculous ufo question in a debate last fall.

I don't watch or listen to msm news or talk shows. I haven't for 10 years, and I don't miss it.

I also haven't expressed any hate for Russert, before or after his death. It's okay to offer condolences at the same time I point out that the over-the-top statements being made about him as a journalist were, and are, ridiculous. He's not the one making the statements. I didn't hate him, I regret his passing, and I'm sorry for his family. I've said that repeatedly, too.

What I did do, just this morning, is "hide" 30 threads about Russert in GD, 23 of them on the first page. That's not "sanctimonious hate," either.

The best example of "sanctimonious hate" that I can find, ironically, is in your OP.

[McCamy Taylor]

228. KO needs to open his eyes. He is not a member of a sports franchise. General Electric

wants to cover the U.S. with a fleet of potential Chernobyls (taxpayer funded of course) and it will use every tool at its disposal---including KO--to do it. As I described in my journal MSNBC Pimps KO To Mind Fuck Dems With McCain Propaganda the network lets him do his thing because it means that people at DU and DailyKos also listen to the bs that Tom Brokaw and others spew.

It is always sad when someone dies, but Russert does not hold a special place in my heart just because he works for the same corporate media giant that KO works for.

[valerief]

230. Yawn. nt

[KG]

233. oh, a scolding! how quaint and rustic.

[Peregrine Took]

256. I, personally, enjoy a good trip to the woodshed. Its good for the soul.

[kath]

283. Spank *me*! Spank *me*!

{monty python}

[TexasObserver]

397. grandma's gonna get her switch and show you what for!!

She doesn't like to be ridiculed!

[paulk]

235. so what?

Why should I care what Olberman says? He's just another media whore himself.

[Beacool]

238. That's what he gets for going to KOS.

I avoid 2 blogs like the plague, KOS & Huff. They are a bunch of rabid LF nuts, just as bad as the Freepers on the right. Whatever happened to moderation and a little class?

Tim Russert, by all accounts, seems to have been a nice man who adored his family. I had a beef with him about how he ganged up on Hillary at the Philly debate, but why bring it up now when the man has passed away. What's the point?

That's the problem with a lot on the left, they are so dogmatic and intransigent. It's either their way or the highway. Well, people' views are not black or white, they are much more complexed and we all have contradictions in our personalities.

I have no use for KO, but I'm sorry he had to read such nasty comments about his friend.

[AngryAmish]

240. It is a crime in seven states to make Keith Obermann sad.

Please refer the offending posts to the appropriate authorities.

[L0oniX]

243. My guess is you don't see the irony in your accusations toward others here who differ with you.

There are always asscarrots who think they can bully others around here and on the school yard. Thought police are asscarrot extraordinaries. If you want to stifle expression then join with Bush in the destruction of our constitution. What you are doing here is the same thing that Bush did to us when he said "you are either with us or the terrorists. Some people here have a more balanced view on who's deaths should be considered, like all the innocent victims of the wars and the over 5000 children in our own country who die every year from neglect. While you all fawn over the death of a millionaire, other unknowns are dying and they deserve better from people who claim to have more humanity than those who choose to not go along with the crowd. While you have your freedom to voice your feelings about Tim, you go and try to deny others the same freedoms you have. If you don't like it that others don't have your view then put them on ignore instead of trying to control everyones opinion. Flame bait is for repuke trolls.

[kath]

287. Don't use the word "ironic" or "ironically" in this thread.

Not a concept such people can grasp...

[L0oniX]

333. LOL

:evilgrin:

[kath]

350. Asscarrot. He said "asscarrot".

Me like.

Never heard it before, but has a certain charm to it...

[defendandprotect]

447. This doesn't look like a lesson that is going to be learned this time around either ---

the compulsion to "bully" --- the FERVOR to control what others say when it's something

they don't like is very strong among a few here at DU --


This message has been delivered to them many times --- but they don't get it ---

or, they are unwilling to get it ---

[beachmom]

530. Then the next time the Freepers celebrate when a great liberal leader gets a brain tumor,

then I ASSUME you will side with THEM and their RIGHT to be vile and despicable. You and everyone else here who thinks Russert was fair game for ridicule and viciousness within hours of his death have lost ALL CREDIBILITY to judge the freepers for their ugliness. All, duly noted.

[SoDesuKa]

250. Small Loss

Russert's death seems to have affected people who bonded with him from seeing him on television. I don't acknowledge that as a genuine loss. Go out and make some real friends, I say.

Russert is among any number of mediocre people who've risen to big positions. The fact that he lasted as long as he did in his job is testament only to his acceptability. But journalism isn't about "acceptability." Or at least it shouldn't be. Over the course of a career, a real journalist should make enemies.

Russert is dead; long live the new host of Meet the Press. I don't think General Electric will replace a celebrity with a journalist, but it's a possibility. That's a positive development.

[trevjr]

251. Sorry

I do feel bad that the man died, and the people he worked with have a right to grieve. That does not mean I have to agree with what the man did. He was a war enabler and there are 4400 dead solders and 100,000+ dead Iraqi civilians, who is grieving for them? Where are the tears about the troops? Who cries for the dead Iraqi children? Where is the military propaganda story? Spare me.

[kath]

353. Welcome to DU, trevjr.

Sorry there's so much ignorance on display here lately.
:hi:

[mmonk]

252. Thank you for the post.

I respected Russert even when I didn't agree with him at times and saw his death as nothing but tragic. I'm also a huge Keith Olberman fan and always will be.

[MadBadger]

261. K & Frickin R.

[easttexaslefty]

262. I agree with the op

It's one thing to disagree with Russert's reporting another to seem almost gleeful about his death

[orleans]

270. this should be posted in general discussion. not general discussion: presidential. n/t

[AlbertCat]

272. Ok...Ok....GROUP HUG!!!!

Can we get on with our lives now?

[glitch]

274. Sick of the term "haters" we are not Bush, we don't talk like third-graders.

While I am at it, also sick of uhhhh and ummmm.

But thanks for creating a space in the dialog for me to be sanctimonious too, and giving me a chance to express my pet peeves.

Oh, the HUMANITY.

[defendandprotect]

448. Criticism is "hatred" is an erroneous idea . . .

being insisted upon thru the primaries ---

It's an end run against truths they don't want to hear ---

[glitch]

461. Yes, and bizarre that they think it should work.

"Discussion must be over and I must've won because YOU'RE A HATER!"

So, what can we come back with: No, you are, I'm rubber you're glue, I know you are but what am I, Takes one to know one, Sticks and stones... it's been a long time since third grade, I know I must be forgetting a few.

[defendandprotect]

486. I think what we have to recognize is that there's a lot of work to do

at DU to actually make sure that many of these people are actually awakened about what
has happened to our "free press."

I hope many of us who have objected to this attempt to herd all DUers into lockstep adoration
for an NBC-GE host will in the next while perhaps try to join together to make clear the dangers of watching TV ---
especially NBC-GE --

Also, I think we have to keep hammering at the point that comments someone doesn't like are
not automatically "hatred" -- !!!

[glitch]

542. THere are a few people making the attempt. Nadine's OP is a good one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3466533

But I think people only really change when they get sick of themselves. Maybe the over-the-top coverage of Russert's death will wake a few to the reality that they are mourning a tv personality that they do not know and not equate it with mourning the loss of a loved one. Which is in itself actually pretty insulting when you think about it.

Perhaps this will cause them to consider how television has invaded their life, and that is a good thing. Then we can start to work on changing television itself into something that is actually useful again. Wouldn't that be nice?

I do think equating disagreement with hatred and "loving" tv personalities are two faces of the same problem.

[defendandprotect]

546. Thanks for your . . .

interesting comments --

I hadn't seen the Nadine OP ---

Perhaps there will be later reflection on all of this --- but the Terri Shaivo revelations after
her death seemed to make absolutely no dent in the system which provided that carnival!

Also, since Keith Olbermann seemed to have played a role in this, I don't think we'll see that
much criticism from within/????

I think the phenemon where people get caught up in the personal lives of people they watch on TV
--- like soap opera characters and believing they are real --- and evidently re news hosts ---
has been made fun of before, even in a film if I recall correctly --

--- but it seems to have struck a large number of people at DU and it should get more study and
attention!!!

[glitch]

551. And you. Keep up the good work! :) (and let's not kick this thread anymore) nt

[odelisk8]

275. W

the post suggests that no matter WHO it is that dies, we have to all be glowing in our praise of them for some indeterminate period of time because people's feelings may be hurt...will their feelings not be hurt in an hour? a month? a year?

any personal attacks on Russert are out of line for sure...but remembering that, in many people's opinion, he was a bad, enabling journalist, so as not to lionize someone undeserving, particularly when this bad journalism has at least done NOTHING to PREVENT thousands of deaths in Iraq...well, sorry...that's some sanctimony you can keep...

not that they are the same by any stretch, but when W's dead I am throwing a party...and I don't give a damn WHO has hurt feelings because of it. will the principle still apply? ha. Russert the man and Russert the public "journalist" are two different things. His "journalism" was, and always will be, totally in bounds for scrutiny and criticism. no time outs.

[Lilith Velkor]

280. To Keith

It's called being a public figure. Suck it up. :nopity:

[mzmolly]

305. Ohhhhhhhhh, another classy post.

:eyes:

[Danger Mouse]

345. Don't insult Jesus with your nasty posts.

[kath]

375. thank you, Father Hubbard.

[Danger Mouse]

399. Traditionally it's Mother Hubbard.

:crazy:

[Lilith Velkor]

378. LEAVE JESUS ALONE!

Seriously, he can handle it. He's been a public figure for way longer than any of these media bozos.

[Danger Mouse]

400. He wouldn't give the middle finger. He wasn't like that.

He was more of a 'bronx cheer' kind of guy.

[Hekate]

285. Thank you to Beachmom and to Melody Townsel. I heartily concur. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

286. I'd like to hear just 10% of this level of coverage

On just one of our fallen military volunteers. To me, the endless 'tributes' are made hollow by the lack of memorial for those who are, I'd hazard, giving more for less return than Mr Russert or myself ever did. It just seems to say much no about Russert, but about those who get not a single word of note for lives sacrificed for the occupation of Iraq, brought to us by Bush and Media Inc.
Balance and perspective would go along way toward making this look like something other than exploitation. How many days for a millionaire journalist? How many for a grunt who gets blown to shreds? How many days for losing an arm or a leg? Seems one gets four days for earning a mansion in Nantucket sitiing in a secure studio. How much for a steel plate in the brain, or for a widowed family?
These are actual questions. Not that it is too much for Tim, but where is it for so many others?

[SwiperFox]

290. So Russert was also a "nice guy"? You having a beer with him anytime soon? LOL j/k

Oh why do we "HATE" the dead? Oh why do we "HATE" America? Oh why do we "HATE" freedom? Can't the rw change their jingle? It is getting old, don't you think? :shrug:

As for KO and all the others, I have said it before and will type it again.

From another post:

"KO is just playing the part of "good cop" to placate the left and to provide a counterargument for discussions such as these. When 90% is rw let 10% be lw so the "we're fair and balanced" ace remains safely tucked under their sleeves. Arent the KO vs Oreily squabbles ludicrous? Same as the dems and reps. Good cops on one side and bad cops on the other, all obeying the same agenda. They play on the "football fan" mentality. Look at the obama vs hillary circus. Lasted a ridiculously long time, dont you agree?
Why did it start so early and was so widely covered by all talking heads (ko included)? Total media blackout on many scandals while filling time slots with fierce devotion to the hillary vs obama theatrics. Wake up! There is only one propaganda source, one party and one agenda. Meet the Republicrat party, kiddos.

P.S: No matter how much you gnash your teeth or rip your vestments, the facts do not change. Tim Russert was, is and forever will be a now historical abilitator of mass murder and thievery."

P.P.S: And this-> :puke:

[kath]

381. SF, I don't think you meant for your post to be a reply to Bluenorthwest, did you?

I assume you were replying to the OP (original post, or the post that starts a thread).

[SwiperFox]

475. oops

Yes, it was definitely a reply to the OP. Sorry about that.

[defendandprotect]

449. Right, this weekend could have been devoted to our fallen SOLDIER's ---

and their families ---

What outrage this whole waste of time is ---
in the celebrity media in self-glorification ---

With the mid-west under water ---
and Global Warming marching along ---

[Ian David]

291. I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Tim Russert. n/t

[beachmom]

301. Me, too, and I'm not even a big Sunday show fan. nt

[Ian David]

302. You think Russert is holding a big whiteboard at the pearly gates tabulating his sins and mitzvahs?

[kath]

388. Good one, Ian.

WHOOOOOOOOSH!

you got your little plush doll on order yet? :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

298. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raine]

300. The should hang their heads in shame but I doubt

they will they are too puffed up with their own self-righteous elitism for that. :mad: The death of public figures brings out the truly ugly side of "progressives".

[QueenOfCalifornia]

303. Why is this OP

In GDP?

Shouldn't it be over in GP?

What the Heck does your hatred towards people who do not agree with you about Tim Russert have to do with the presidential election?:shrug:

[NM Independent]

304. Thank You!

The grave-dancing has been disgusting.

[DemoTex]

306. Russert signed his work: good, bad, or otherwise. Most DUers do not.

A lot of the bile spewed here since 6/13 would have been spared had not those spewing bile been cloaked in their protective cocoons of anonymity.

Grow the fuck up, said Melody Townsel. Excellent advice for the immature, knee-jerk forum that DU has become.

[TexasObserver]

309. Silly and irrelevant.

If you don't want to read comments about Russert, you know how to stop yourself.

You know you've run out of ideas when your criticism is the "bunch of damn anonymous posters, boy, I'll tell you!"

This is a message board of anonymous posters, commenting on current events. If you can't handle that, you're the only one who can stop your pain and disappointment.

[TBF]

310. I agree, DemoTex, it is not just on this forum. Anonymity seems to breed contempt.

What an angry nation we are right now. Blaming it on a dead guy is not the answer. Everyone mourns at their own rate, and if it takes an entire weekend (or year) so be it.

[kath]

396. DemoTex?!!

[ananda]

307. Ah hah!

So telling the truth about Russert.. saying it
like it is.. is bile.

That just about sums up everything that is wrong
with America and its presstitute media right now.

[UrbScotty]

314. Thank you, beachmom.

[krkaufman]

315. I can't speak for any hate-filled posts that demonized Russert ...

... but I'm not aware of anyone calling Russert's home, or staging protests in front of MSNBC. Anyone going Westboro Baptist or phoning complaints to NBC/MSNBC would be over-the-top, but DailyKos and this site are political discussion forums, and I expect that many people familiar with the media's complicity in this country's invasion of Iraq are having a negative reaction to the non-stop, uncritical coverage since Friday.

As for Olbermann's posts to DailyKos, the advice being handed-out to "change channels" or "turn off the TV" would equally apply to those who might take offense at criticism of Tim Russert's journalistic record.

[Skittles]

318. KO can fuck himself too n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

322. Word.

[Skittles]

338. not all of us are slobbering fans of KO or Russert n/t

[Danger Mouse]

344. Ew. Must be sad to be so filled with hatred.

[Name removed]

349. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NastyDiaper]

321. Russert really did love it. I liked him for that reason.

He felt it was an important part of being a citizen.

The goal is to inform people. That's both cliche and rarely true. What made Tim rare was that he made it feel important, and fun.

Instead all too many care only about is how blue is your purple. It gets old.

I saw Tim thursday on morning Joe. I remember thinking He's enjoying himself. A bit of calm between the storms. Primary over and no VPs yet to vet.

I'll miss Tim and that VP interview.

[leftofthedial]

323. I'm sorry for Russert's family.

His death does not change who he was or what he did.

[apocalypsehow]

324. All I had to do was read your OP's title and I knew - just knew - that the assholes would swarm in,

half of them claiming that there were no such grave-pissing threads here, the other half admitting that there were and damn proud of it.

The problem is not just DU, of course: it is a phenomenon of the internet, where cowardly, craven little worms such as the scum posting anti-Russert material here get to feel brave, bold, & vile. Most of these cowards wouldn't have the nerve to even raise an eyebrow in public, but they get mighty brave on the other side of that anonymous keyboard. They are the scum of the earth, by any decent measure.

K & R your excellent OP. :thumbsup:

[Reterr]

373. Irony alert, Irony alert

The problem is not just DU, of course: it is a phenomenon of the internet, where cowardly, craven little worms such as the scum posting anti-Russert material here get to feel brave, bold, & vile. Most of these cowards wouldn't have the nerve to even raise an eyebrow in public, but they get mighty brave on the other side of that anonymous keyboard. They are the scum of the earth, by any decent measure.

Dear poster,
You are ALSO an anonymous poster on the internet calling people "scum of the earth" on a message board. Are you sure you would say this to their faces? Yeah sure...

Your post just dehumanized a lot of people and you are the one being sanctimonious about how "scummy" they are :shrug:?

You are also an anonymous poster on the internet did you happen to notice-like me and like everyone else :shrug:? Unless apocalypsehow is your actual name, in which case I take it all back and commend you Mr.Apocalypsehow on your boldness in calling a number of people on this message board "scum of the earth" etc. under your actual name :hi:.

Oh the irony...oh the irony...

[kath]

403. Reterr, sweetie, I've said it before, and I'll say it again --

best not to use the word "irony" or "ironically" in this thread. No way in hell is that a concept that these types can grasp.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6368135&mesg_id=6370346

[Reterr]

404. Heh no kidding

Spot on :hi:. Can you believe the number of posts in this thread calling people filth, scum and beasts for expressing an opinion on a public persona (oh and they say there are many HATE-filled posts and then link to perfectly reasonable critiques like the one by greenman)?

Yet, they are the humane, kind-hearted people :eyes:. Seriously, I want to know what these people would consider say a pedophile or a rapist, if posting stuff they disagree with on the internet (disrespectful to the deceased etc. etc.) alone makes someone sub-human scum. They must be the kind of people, some of them, who pant over handing out the death penalty to just about everyone. For all their concern for the deceased, most of them don't seem to care much about the living-to the extent of saying vile things directly to them.

Poster A says: Screw Russert
Poster B says: I hope you are flushed into a sewer you pathetic slime

Which is worse eh :shrug:?

[kath]

411. and interestingly, far more of the "emoter" type have had posts deleted or been banned for saying

"fuck you" and such. Ironic, eh?

Oops, I used THAT word. :spank: :spank: :spank:

[apocalypsehow]

442. *Kick* my excellent post in this excellent thread.

By the predictable, lame, smarmy reactions to it, I owe myself a big 'ole :thumbsup:

[Reterr]

497. Lol-another post that doesn't answer a single point

:D
"I owe myself a big 'ole"
Well you have to say that...no one else would :hi:.

[apocalypsehow]

498. Yeah - I count 120 recs in this thread so far that'd disagree with you. But you keep on pretending.

:hi:

[apocalypsehow]

499. Oh, and before I forget: thanks again for calling attention to my excellent post..

..in this excellent thread. The losers have been exposed, and that's always an excellent development in human society. :-)

[Reterr]

501. :-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3466397
Lets see-how long did this train wreck of a thread take to get 120 recs...?? Nance's thread, which is full of old-timers it looks like, already has 114-can't imagine how many it will have ina few hours :).

Always nice talking to you-you seem SO intelligent :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:.

[Reterr]

502. Oh and PS

I do like to draw attention to your posts-honestly! I LOVE to draw attention to your posts.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Bette Noir]

325. Keithie, are you reading?

I'm so sorry for your loss.

You have a standing invitation to my house for dinner, any time you're in California.

[kath]

409. Keithie, can I send you some flowers?

[elliotwayne]

330. Shame.

[lala_rawraw]

332. can you post some links

to the "Russert hater" posts? I apparently missed all of this and I want to see what happened that this is in response to, so I have context:)

[kath]

408. you BAD, lala.

you need to be taken to Peregrine Took's woodshed. See above.

[lala_rawraw]

417. no clue

what you mean... what is Pergrine Took? i am serious, i really want to know what these Russert hating comments were, because I honestly did not see them.

[kath]

420. They existed in miniscule numbers only. Some of the ignoramii think that any criticism equals

EEEEVIL hatred, grave-pissing, grave-dancing, etc.
Simple folk, really.

You ask for evidence? Bah. This isn't about evidence. It's all about emotion, moral panic, and what you feel in your GUT. (who does *that* sound like?)

As to the woodshed and Peregrine Took, see the group of posts above that start with # 233. I just think you need a spanking for the insolence you showed in asking for evidence.

[lala_rawraw]

566. ohhhhhhhhh

okay:)

[scarletwoman]

335. Do you want to know what really offends MY sensibilities?

It's the deification of a paid propagandist for the Military-Industrial Complex. Because that's what Tim Russert was.

I'm offended by people who can't handle the truth, who want to cling to delusions, who want to remain ignorant of the corruption that pervades the corporate media and our government. That really, really offends me. It makes me angry, too.

So spare me your emotional dramatics. I don't give a shit. I give a shit about the state of our country, about the misinformed masses who have no idea about how they are being fucked over by people like Tim Russert.

Yes, even the most venal assholes have people who love them -- so what? Every abuser has been enabled by the love of the victim -- should I applaud that?

Everyone dies. Some die suddenly. Death is a drag -- I know well how much a drag it is, I've gone through the sudden unexpected deaths of two of my partners over the past 20 years. It's very hard.

But the people in my life who died were people who gave of themselves for the greater good. They were compassionate healers who did all in their power to help others live fulfilled lives.

Tim Russert was just a well-paid cog in the machine of the Owner Class whose main purpose is to piss on the People and tell them it's raining.

Yeah, it's tough when someone dies unexpectedly, I know it well from personal experience. I have no problem with extending condolences to his family and friends. But I absolutely REFUSE to gloss over the reality of what Russert did while he was alive.

He made his millions through being an enabler to destruction of the "fourth estate", and consequently our Republic.

He will not be missed by me. And I see no good reason to pretend otherwise.

sw

[Joey Liberal]

347. Well put, Scarletwoman. Well put indeed. n/t

[scarletwoman]

354. My sincere thanks. I'm very glad to know that someone read my post in this very long thread. (nt)

[kath]

414. You're a treasure, scarletwoman.

several great posts in this thread.

[scarletwoman]

433. Thank you for your kind words. And for the record, when I die, I would sincerely hope that anyone

who happens to give a damn would feel completely free to say anything about me that they wanted -- positive or negative.

At least I'll die with a clear conscience, knowing that I never willfully enabled fascism and militarism -- unlike the mainstream corporate media cohort of which Russert was a charter member.

sw

[Raster]

434. Thank you!

[earth mom]

472. Couldn't have said it better myself! nt

[PoliticalAmazon]

563. Thank you. n/t

[Joey Liberal]

340. I can't blame the Russert haters

While I enjoyed Meet The Press, it was often times hard to watch as Russert threw softballs to the republicans and then got nasty with the Democrats. Having said that, I did admire Russert for being a great family man. I saw his son on TV and he's the proof that Russert was a good father. But let's not forget - if a Liberal journalist were to suddenly pass away - the conservative bloggers would celebrate with no mercy.

If you want hatred, just listen to Rush Limbaugh, read an Ann Coulter editorial, or watch O'Reilly or Hannity on Faux News.

[GoldieAZ49]

341. Please, these grave dancers have no shame

no decency, and they certainly deserve no respect from anyone.

They are the bottom of the barrel of the human gene pool, a disgrace to the party and the country. May they be flushed into the sewer from which they came.

[Danger Mouse]

343. I agree with you on that.

[Major Hogwash]

355. When Cheney bites the big one, are you going to shed crocodile tears?

I'm just wondering where your "line of decency" is drawn in the sand, so to speak?

[GoldieAZ49]

364. it is drawn with respect for all humanity.

Disagreeing with someone politically does not entice me to surrender my respect for life, my compassion for grieving is from having experienced myself, we are all part of humanity.

Do you think abhorrent disrespect for another human being and their loved ones at their darkest hour somehow makes you superior? If so, you are delusional. It makes you not only inferior to the deceased but to the human race as whole.

[Major Hogwash]

470. Ummm, Russert was a tool and I mean that most sincerely in every way possible.

Russert spent most of his time defending the Bush administration and I think that it is abundantly clear that you have a problem separating the truth of that reality from your posts here.

But, go ahead and whine.
I'm sure it's what Tim would want.

4100 men and women have already been killed in the Iraq War and I'm sure there were real tears shed over their deaths - but not by anyone in the MSM.

[sellitman]

516. *Ding* Ding**Ding* Ding*Ding* Ding*

No one has said it better. I wish you made this a separate post.

Exactly how I feel.

[Reterr]

368. You are quite right-"they" are not true progressives unlike the people who say this?

*They are the bottom of the barrel of the human gene pool, a disgrace to the party and the country. May they be flushed into the sewer from which they came.*

Yeah, now THAT is a really progressive statement. Why not say instead you really dislike their manners or some of the attitudes behind the grave-pissing? No-that is not enough -they have to be scum who need to be removed from the human gene pool etc.

The irony is amazing..just amazing...

[GoldieAZ49]

379. nothing to do with being "progressive"

it has everything to do with being human and humane. They obviously belong to neither. Nor would I want to affiliated with them whatsoever.

[Reterr]

392. Wait so it is "humane" to dismiss a bunch of people you know nothing about

as "bottom of the barrel scum" etc. and dismiss everything about them and dehumanize them based on a few posts on a message board. My friend, given by the number of deleted posts on this board, almost everyone here has at some point or the other probably posted some pretty vile stuff.
You mean nobody decent ever posts a heated or even possibly callous post on a board ever? It couldn't just be a mistake or an opinion they have that is out of whack or whatever?

{And I am not even talking about the people who posted some factual stuff about Russert in response to an avalanche of prasie heaped on him. Here I am talking only about a handful of actual grave-pissers}.

With all due respect, at least the people trashing Russert knew a little more about him, what with him being a public persona and all than the people many of you are trashing without knowing anything at all about them.

No irony there? Somehow that doesn't strike as "humane" at all.

[GoldieAZ49]

406. funny they were not on TV with their faces and names shown

the gutless wonders hiding behind an anonymous handle pretending they have something to say worth hearing.

They have neither the balls nor anything worth hearing.

[Reterr]

407. You are anonymous too-maybe you wouldn't call them scum to their face?

Would you go and call a co-worker say, who was bitching about Russert, lowly scum to their face? In the exact sort of terms you have used here?

If not, aren't you using the anonymity of the internet the same way they are :shrug:?

[GoldieAZ49]

413. yes I would, however no one shows their indecency publicly

because they know it is unacceptable

[kath]

418. so you *would* call a co-worker scum to her face?

or are we having a reading comprehension problem here?

[Reterr]

421. lol-I was wondering about that

Decided not to say anything more -not sure I want to tangle with someone who would call a co-worker scum to their face for dissing a public figure ;). Actually people at work (a couple) have been bitching about the MSNBC-Russert thing.

[fascisthunter]

505. Russert Sold a War to American

and you call people grave dancers.... sounds corney and a bit contrived. I'm sure it really pisses you off to see so many anonymous posters calling Russert out for what he really was: a conservative corporate media propagandist.

[Danger Mouse]

342. I'm not even going to bother reading the responses to this wonderful OP...

because I know it'll be full of all sorts of hate directed at you. :hug:

[DesertRat]

351. This weekend was definately not DU's finest moment

As I read so many of the hateful comments here, I hoped that his wife and son didn't see them. DU apparently isn't filled with as many compassionate people as I'd once thought.

k&r

[PoliticalAmazon]

564. Please provide links to these "hateful comments." Thanks. n/t

[DesertRat]

565. Sorry, I don't have time.

Just read through the dozens of posts about Russert over the past 4 days and you're sure to find them.

[tritsofme]

352. Why should I give a shit if Keith Olbermann read something or not?

nt

[scarletwoman]

358. Because famous people's opinions are so much more important than ours. (nt)

[Medusa]

386. No. Keith Olbermann's opinions and feelings

are paramount here. Can't offend him, hurt his feelings, etc. He can dish it out, let him learn to suck it up. He needs to put his big boy pants on. So do a lot of people around here. Reality bites baby.

[scarletwoman]

428. Yes. Let us kiss the butts of the minions of the Ruling Class, our betters.

Gawd, people are stupid! :banghead:

[JoFerret]

366. KO was on air for hours?

talking about Russert?
I don't watch much TV so have no clue if you are using hyperbole.
If not then I have to say that this seems way over the top. And that is to say noting about Russert plus or minus. Just seems way out of proportion.

[LibraLiz1973]

384. He was literally on air for HOURS on Friday

doing the coverage
so that part is true.

And he was crying.

[Medusa]

390. And?

that's his job. Report breaking news. Be prepared to have to report upsetting, heartbreaking news. be prepared to stay on air for hours. I'm sure he was upset. I'm sure they all were. It doesn't negate the mainstream media's complicity in our being in an illegal war in Iraq.

[JoFerret]

538. Ridiculous

use of air time.
Doesn't he know there's a war on?
I mean no disrespect to Russert but I think that kind of coverage is out of proportion and self - indulgent.

[Matteon]

369. Russerets death recieved far too much attention.

Many people died that same day who were every bit as deserving of attention as Russert, yet got none. The high value so many people place on the fact that someone works on television is a cancer in our culture.

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

523. I think they are hoping to receive

the same type of endless media fawning if one of them kicked today.

[Eric J in MN]

377. We should post our criticism of a dead celebrity while he's a topic of discussion.

Not wait a week or two when people may not even be discussing him anymore.

If a celebrity who knew the dead celebrity sees the criticism, so be it.

[Swagman]

383. does anyone remember Peter Jennings ??

I don't remember an orgy of TV wailing over his death.
I do remember it was handled with more dignity.

Would it be of any use to examine his journalistic career now ?..I think not. Gone and forgotten.

[AnnieBW]

410. Thanks for saying this

I, too, was disgusted by the bile that was coming out of some posters for Tim Russert. Even if you didn't always agree with him, you should at least respect the fact that he died much too early. His son is now fatherless, right before Father's Day. His father has to bury a son. At least let him be buried before you start picking at the corpse.

KO has been our strongest voice in the media since this whole nightmarish 8 years began. I would hate to have him think less of the people that he is the voice of because of a few ignorant, classless morons. That's for Freeptards and Right Wingnuts, not us.

[Raster]

415. Let's not forget that Tim Russert DECIDEDLY helped usher in those "nightmarish 8 years."

Look it up. Russert literally swooned over bush* and treated Gore like shit. Russert also minimized any discussion of electoral fraud in Florida whenever he had the chance. But don't take my word for it, LOOK IT UP!

And again, other than criticism of his unabashedly pro-corporate career, please point out a "dancing on the grave" thread.

And do you know why persons take on the role or moral arbiter? So they can compensate for their own lives and give themselves an opportunity to feel superior.

Let's leave Mother Superior in the Sound of Music where she belongs.

[grantcart]

426. Isn't this the real legacy of George Bush and Dick Cheney?

that when a fairly decent guy dies that we cannot simply think about that

but he has to be evaluated on how effective he was in exposing their crimes and their lies?

Let me put this another way. If all Gore had taken the oath of office in 2001 this thread would have been one of universal respect of Tim Russert.

In other words the acrimony and the division that is expressed in this thread all comes directly from the poison of Bush/Cheney.

I don't feel that I explained my point very well but maybe you got the general idea.

[defendandprotect]

450. Once again . . . honest criticism is not "hatred" . . .

That's a cop out we've seen carried over from the primaries --

criticism is just that --- telling one's truth about what one observes or understands ---

You may be right about Bush/Cheney -- a lot of very disgusting things are going on ---

we're celebrating a celebrity journalist who helped move this war --- and I bet you

didn't see one SOLDIER'S COFFIN on NBC this weekend ... right?

Were their families not hurt --- missing them?

How many more journalists will receive like tributes --- ??

Barbara Walters?
and on down the list --- ?

[grantcart]

462. Every word true - my point is that we are applying a double standard to the MSM

when a similar standard should have been applied to most of our own Senators and Congressman.

I may have made it clearer here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3466397&mesg_id=3467154

[Major Hogwash]

474. What's bizarre is that it has already been 4 days of nonstop gnashing of teeth over Russert.

And there doesn't seem to be any let up in the sheer level of absurdity over it.

Russert was by no means a saint.
He was in fact, more complicit than most of these people gnashing their teeth want to admit.

It's almost as if this somehow will make it better for them if they complain about the way Tim Russert is discussed in the future.

I can tell you this much for sure, Tim no longer cares what anyone thinks of him.

Ah, but then there is an election in 140 days, isn't there.
Wouldn't want to sidetrack anyone here with any "smoke and mirrors".
"Oh, look, they're playing it on tv again - they're re-running the eraser board tape of Russert on election night of 2004."

My gawd, I hope he is buried with that little eraser board.
It became his little pride and joy.

Infreaking credible.

[defendandprotect]

484. But ....

of course the "blame" is with the "MSM" --- and I think it might help you to actually
recognize them as what they are -- our corporate monopoly press ---

Also, as we discuss NBC/GE here . . . it seems to me that a lot of people who are
watching what they offer don't understand who and what GE actually is and what they've
been doing with our "free press" over decades ---
If you're not sure you know who they are, I'd suggest you check into it.

We are not applying a "double standard" to the "media" if you understand what our Constitution
confirms a free press as our first line of defense --- -- !!!!

Yes, Bush and Cheney are corrupt and have "misued power" --- but it is up to a free press
to inform the public of that. To investigate and to confirm to the public what is happening.
To offer suggestions for remedy --- including impeachment.

It is up to our free press to challenge those in power and authority!
It was up to our free press to smell a rat and reveal the lies and great deceptions which
took us into this "illegal" war--!!!

Could so many in the public have realized on their own that attacking Iraq was a ton of B.S.
and yet the "media" and our Democrats couldn't recognize that? Not likely!!!

And this is without doubt . . .
The country has been mistreated terribly by Bush/Cheney and the casualties are in cemetaries, hospitals, and in careers of promising men and women who missed their mark by trusting their government.

When you sat in your classroom and understood that your government committed GENOCIDE against
the native American . . . if you were intelligent, you immediately learned some distrust.

I remember once hearing Noam Chomsky describe government as a "typewriter" ---
It's a little odd but it does serve to explain that what comes out of the typewriter
depends on who is doing the writing; who sits in power. So we must always be cautious.
That will also be true of our new Democratic candidate --- and the party itself.

I'm not clear on who you are talking about here . . .
We are very fortunate to have someone who passed your bar to help restore that trust.

If you mean Russert, I will say again, that you don't understand NBC-GE and those who they
select to represent them.

[kath]

468. grantcart, I beg to differ with one part of your post, and it's very important.

"If all Gore had taken the oath of office in 2001 this thread would have been one of universal respect of Tim Russert."

By no means did the evil deeds of the CPM (Corporate Propaganda Ministry, aka "the MSM") begin with their cheerleading of the Iraq occupation. Goes back at least to all the screeching about "Clinton's Cock!" in which Russert played a huge role. Russert also played a huge role in trashing Al Gore, spreading lies and exaggerations, including the "Gore's a Liar" meme. Russert also guilty of screaming for the shutdown of the Florida recount, IIRC. In other words, it is largely due to the misdeeds of the CPM that Gore DIDN'T take office.

So - if Al Gore HAD somehow managed to take office, I have NO doubt that Russert and the CPM would have trashed him absolutely relentlessly.

SO while things have gotten horribly worse under the Bushco regime, Russert and the CPM have been catapulting the propaganda for the RightWingers for a very long time.



(on further thought, goes further back than the "Clinton's Cock is the cause of all evil" era. See "The Hunting of the President" by Gene Lyons and Joe Conason. There really was a "vast right-wing conspiracy", and the CPM (not necessarily including Russert, since he jumped up to his MTP position in '91 or '92) helped to catapult that propaganda.)

[grantcart]

479. that could be true I was out of the country for the 80s and 90s

[D23MIURG23]

427. I've mostly avoided the coverage of Russerts death

But what I have seen strikes me as slightly bizzare. Days worth of coverage on MSNBC, and fawning posts all over the internet about what a great man he was and how important he was to political journalism. Forgive me, but I could have sworn the current state of political journalism helped bring us the most incompetent and corrupt government in US history.

I was not gratified by news of Tim Russerts death. By all accounts he was a good husband and father, and he was not exceptionally old. But while it is perfectly appropriate to honor someone for qualities and accomplishments they had in life, it strikes me as histrionic and disingenuous to make grandiose embellishments on them. To this end I am glad that some people have produced reasonable critiques rather than ignoring or contributing to the hype.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

429. I don't hate Russert; in fact, I had to see his picture before I knew who you were talking about

I haven't paid much attention to TV news for years.

But here's what's disgusting: It's Monday, Russert died on Friday or Saturday, and when I just looked at CNN a couple of minutes ago (it happens to be Channel 3 on our system, so I have to have it on when I watch VHS tapes), and they were STILL going on about Russert. I'm sure he was a nice guy and a great buddy to the other TV personalities, but he wasn't really IMPORTANT.

[jeff30997]

440. Who's Russert ?

I know Dan Rather but Russert ? Never heard of it.

[wisteria]

446. Bravo, Beachmom. There are many people on the blogs that need to find a heart and grow up.

I know three year olds who have more compassion and sense than some unfeeling commenter's here and at Kos.
Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

[scarletwoman]

454. So, might one assume that you will be equally urging "compassion" when Dick Cheney passes

as you are for one of his corporate media enablers?

sw

[wisteria]

477. Every human being is deserving of respect and has some redeeming qualities.

Yes, even Chaney- whom I dislike is deserving of a little compassion- he could probably use it more than some others.

[TexasObserver]

458. Yeah, like all the hand wringers.

If you don't wish to talk about Russert's work, you don't have to. And you don't have to read while others do so, either. Exercise a little personal restraint and stop yourself from clicking on threads that upset you.

[followthemoney]

464. I haven't gotten over Princess Diana yet, and now Tim Russert!

Horrors! Why, oh why?

Anybody got names of Iraqis who died due to media complicity with American tyranny?

There must be a million out there.

Can we have a national day of mourning or something else just as simple?

[mrbluto]

465. And your point is?

All due respect to Mr Olberman, but I think it's a bad sign you think the fact KO was reading it changes anything. Your post comes off as some scolding from a teacher's pet given the headline.

It's not like he's some parent for us to fear. This weird resort to trumped up authority is the same dynamic that makes for the wonderful koolaide I bet they drink in the Whitehouse.

Different flavor, weaker blend, same sort of beverage.

That said I'd going to quote my response to hearing of Russert's passing:

Schadenfreude is disgusting - but Russert really was a hack.
Posted by mrbluto in Latest Breaking News
Fri Jun 13th 2008, 07:33 PM
It is sad for his family.

It is in bad taste to wallow in schadenfreude.

That said I don't have respect for him as a journalist. I've seen him at work.

Fair to Hillary? I don't think fairness was part of the picture - for anyone he dealt with.

I saw a media operative. And for what? He made plenty of money, he and his family wouldn't have lived a noticeably less luxurious life if he had asked one less slanted question, or repeated one less talking point into the echo chamber. There is no excuse for his "professional" behavior.

While we should have the taste and good sense not to relish what is tragic for his friends and family we should not let sentimentality cause us to turn a blind eye to the damage he, and others with a similar lack of integrity, do.

That's the sort of sentimentality that paints Nixon some great statesman, Reagan as an icon, and lends hope to those who think a soft coup is the first step toward ensuring their honored place in the history books.

[kath]

471. Loved your mention of the "soft coup" at the time,

and I love it still.
Thanks.

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

521. He's not a parent for us to fear nor should he be

a hero for us to worship. He's one of them--the MSM who brought into the whole war propaganda meme. I don't give a shit if his feelings were hurt or what he does think. GOOD. Let him see this. Let him know that he is not above reproach either. Maybe, just maybe, it will make a more honest reporter out of him. But we've never seen him call down a single one of his MSNBC/NBC coworkers on his show have we? And we won't no matter how bad they fuck up because he's one of them. Which is why I don't give a shit what he thinks or what he saw.

[mrbluto]

536. I basically agree.

We shouldn't slack in our insistence on truth, accuracy, and relevance in journalism.

But I temper any critical element in my stance toward Olberman with an acknowledgment of what he's up against.

I do give his opinion some weight, but it's more like talking to a hostage over the phone - you gotta realize there's likely somebody pointing a (metaphorical) gun at his career to his head while he's talking. He can push things and surf the ambiguity into a bit of subversiveness, but there are limits. Even if, in his heart of hearts, he is completely ready to take a bullet for getting the truth out we'd want him to wait and play along until a truly critical moment to stop playing the big media game. For the extent that he does push toward real news he should be applauded.

Look, the big wigs in the MSM paint with a paint palette composed of the array of talent available and actual current events. When "Conservative" is what sells, then they pick up a dab off the pallet and paint Faux news and O'Reilly onto our screens. When they want to hedge their bets heading into an election season they compose with a "Progressive" hue and they use a their big money brush and paint Countdown with a dab called Olberman. He doesn't have to be dishonest for them to use him to get in front of a parade and lead it.

He seems to strain at the bonds, makes pretty consistent sense, and speaks to us on an adult (better than 9th grade comprehension) level.

For that Olberman has my positive regard.

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

545. If he were what he claims to be, and what some here worship him as

being--e.g., speaking truth to power--where was he when Shuster & Matthews & Russert were saying stupid stuff on air. Why weren't any of them ever chosen as WPITW? He's a corporate suck-up that's why. I can't respect anyone like that. And I damn sure don't care what they think or if they read something I wrote that they might find objectionable. What are we supposed to be? His freaking fan club?

[jgraz]

466. Sad to see this at the top of the Greatest Page

And shameful that anyone would suggest that an aggrieved celebrity keep us from an honest debate -- no matter what the topic.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

469. Wrong forum..

..move to GD or Media forum, please mods.



I like chocolate ice cream.

[SwiperFox]

478. There they go again...HATE!!!

Criticism on the "war on terror" = Hate Freedom, Criticism on the government = Hate America, Criticism on a propagandist = Hate on HUMANITY!

OH WHY DO YOU HATE HUMANITY??? :nopity:

KO has disappointed me, but I should have expected this from another media underling. Sadly, hope is the last thing one loses when faced with overwhelming odds and I must admit, KO made me hope that maybe there is one good guy in the middle of the media muck. Of course, that is exactly what the elites aim for. I am glad, and at the same time saddened, to finally face this truth. So should you, imo.

[concerned canadian]

480. first it's 'hillary haters', now it's 'tim russert haters'

When in fact, after much research into the matter (complete with links and sub-links), no substantial evidence could be
found of hate filled expressions toward or hatred for the recently deceased man.

[disunderestimated]

482. I have to ask: When the current cadre of neocons pass away...

Will the tide of recognition of how much damage these people have done be considered "inappropriate?"

We make our choices in life. Selfish or selfless. Helpful or harmful. You should expect no quarter for your choices if they hurt others. No matter how sudden or tragic your demise.

Perhaps the hurt your family, friends and admirers feel at having those damaging behaviors pointed out at this "sensitive" time is something the deceased should have considered when they were alive.

[concerned canadian]

487. i think you misunderstood my post

I'm saying that i DID NOT find any evidence of hate-mongering in response to Tim Russert's death, as charged in the OP.

I don't agree with mandatory mourning periods for celebrities or tv personalities

[tomp]

483. congratulations!

you made me think less of keith olbermann and not more of tim russert.

you're just wrong but you'll never see it.

[TexasObserver]

485. Here's your lesson about worshipping Tim Russert and others, from T.S. Eliot.

from
The Hollow Men
Thomas Stearns Eliot,(1888-1965)

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us-if at all-not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men

[bjobotts]

489. Post it at Kos but don't push it here as DU was respectful but still told the truth

[bjobotts]

490. And where do you get off using the word sanctimonious to describe DU

[bjobotts]

491. Olbermann should weep for the thousands of dead Iraqis but chose to let it out here

[bjobotts]

492. It was his colleague not mine but he tried to make it mine with hours of praise

[bjobotts]

493. I certainly never saw sanctimony at DU so it wansn't rampant here

[bjobotts]

494. I won't bawl when Bush dies either but can respect a human passing

[bjobotts]

495. You act like a president died or something. Of course his peers are saddened

[bjobotts]

496. But you insult us for not acting like Olbermann,?? Get a grip

[gcomeau]

548. Having conversations with yourself is a sign of mental instability.

7 responses TO YOUR OWN REPLIES in 11 minutes? Speaking of getting a grip...

As for the OP, they were entirely right. There has been some absolutely inexcusable conduct on these boards the last couple days. I don't care one teeny tiny little bit what your opinion of Russert was, you don't jump all over the guy while the body is still cooling in the fucking morgue and his friends and family are still in shock and mourning... which is what a lot of juvenile idiots were engaged in doing this weekend.

[fascisthunter]

506. This site is infested with those who want to mold opinion

always someone telling DUers to be nice, to give conservatives a break, not think outside of the corporate media's frame. h well... it didn't work... again.

[LaStrega]

500. Sanctimonious?

Dictionary.com Unabridged

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous Pronunciation {sangk-tuh-moh-nee-uhs}–adjective

1. making a hypocritical show of religious devotion, piety, righteousness, etc.: They resented his sanctimonious comments on immorality in America.

2. Obsolete. holy; sacred.

I'm not seeing how this word fits in with the offence the OP points out. No disrespect to the OP, I'm just not getting it.

I have not posted word one {until now}, here nor on DailyKos {both to which I'm a monetary contributor by the by}, nor elsewhere, about the passing on of Mr. Russert {I've always disliked the phrase "passing away" but maybe that's just me}.

All of my grandparents have passed on, my big sister passed on 10-years ago as of this past May 12. My daughter's father passed on 5-years ago as of this past March 8. I know all-too-well how very painful it can be to lose a loved one.

I will admit, I'm in agreement with those of whom were not overly fond of Mr. Russert. I will also admit, if anyone had had the fucking nerve to utter a bad word about my sister or daughter's father after their death, I'd be the first to punch 'em in their fucking face.

I've read OPs and threads on both sides. I've not responded in either nor kicked nor recommended {nor will I now}. I have my opinion, but I also know words of disdain in this time of mourning can leave a mark ... maybe even a scar. I want not to do that.

You have your right to your own opinion. Others have their right to their own opinion. And gods bless America you've all got your right to disagree.

I do not appreciate Mr. Russert's lending a microphone to the march toward invasion. I do appreciate that his colleagues are deeply moved by his passing. Yes, it was a shock. I was shocked, you were shocked, hell, who wasn't shocked. There is nothing but shock when a person passes so suddently. I do not appreciate the fact that MSM news was brought nearly to a halt in the wake of the floods in Iowa {my original alma mater, U of I, is suffering something awful ...}.

I'll tell you what I am appalled by ... the shrub gallavanting about Europe whilst yet again another disaster destroys the lives, if not takes the lives, of Americans. That's the true affront.

While we may disagree, and disagree mightily, over our fellow DU member's reaction to Mr. Russert's passing ... what we should chime in together about is "Where is the god-damned President?!" Listen, I was born and raised in Des Moines. My eldest sister still resides in Norwalk (she's okay, they're on high ground). I care about what goes on there. I understand peeps not wanting (indeed needing) the idiot shrub there. And again, indeed, what would the twit do? Say some meaningless shit ... FEMA THIS (Brownie, where are you?!). Meh. Iowans are a strong lot. I've got some vacation time, I'm gonna see what I can sign up for to head down there and help. Have shovel/hammer/nails/circular saw/Formula 409/sponges/big heart ... I'll pitch in to be sure.

I'm hoping for a day that, when disaster strikes we come together to help ... difference of opinion withstanding ... just help. 'Cause gods know FEMA sucks ass (and not in a good way) and shrub is incapable of doing a damned thing for us.


Good night ... and good luck. *doffs hat at KO*

[fascisthunter]

503. Saying Russert was a Corporate Media Hack is Telling the Truth

No CONCERNED POSTER wishing DUers fall into line with mainstream personalities and the propaganda they pushed on Americans to go into war will change that truth. Your concern has been noted.

:rofl:

[acmavm]

508. Another of DU's politically correct sheriff's at work I see.

Save the lecture. The MSM in this country is a steaming pile of shit because of all the people that accept, even more than accept, EXCUSE these partisan hacks that pass for 'journalists' today. And Timmy was just that. He kissed this administration's ass from Day 1. He lied, he covered up, he soft-pedaled the stories about their policies and the effect on all of us. He was a disgusting sell-out.

Now me, I prefer someone who's honest. Who won't tell me how great things are oon the one hand, what a fantastic bunch of humanitarians we have running this country, while counting his 30 pieces of silver with the other.

[rucognizant]

509. I would have liked to respond..........

But I am not registered on Daily kos to comment!
So I will comment here in the hope that Keith Olbermann is still monitoring this thread!
It is now Tues. AM. I was too busy this weekend, to sit in on the mourning for Tim Russert. I was out in my yard, (at age 69) doggedly determinedly, creating a garden, in the face of the loss of 1/3 of our grain crop due to the flooding, and spurred on by the fear of poisoned tomatoes, and starvation with the increasing cost of groceries, vs. my .2% raise in income!
Using the most primitive of tools, shovel rake, hoe, and muscle power. ( I had a productive garden, several years ago, created over 10 years of bringing in one bucket at a time of manure, seaweed, sand, and the dump truck load of top soil, given by the DOT, and distributed evenly over two years using shovel & wheelbarrow.)
In fact it was a Victory Garden, the summer of 2003 to console myself over the grief of our Aggressive Invasion of an innocent country and the wanton destruction of the oldest civilization in the World, the scattering or death of it's brightest, and best educated citizens.
I marched against going to war in Oct 2002, I then threw my self into political activity, supporting Gov. Dean's Presidential bid,( instead of living my own life which I should have been able to do.) NO REWARD THERE!
My son had come to live with me after a patch of financial trouble following a divorce, and in 2005. We watched with great sorrow, when Peter Jennings announced his lung cancer, and a month later he, my son, my only son, was diagnosed with the same disease. He died a month after Peter Jennings, 3 weeks after Katrina....( and in spite of my preoccupation with his illness, I was FULLY AWARE, that a HUGE, eminent domain scam was happening right
before our eyes, on National TV!
The week my son went into I C with pneumonia,and I was NOT HOME, the Town, State, sent an ignorant clod into my yard with a cat ( earth mover) to build me a new sewer, the old one being obsolete, and endangering the fishing industry in my town. Being on SS, & under the poverty level, it was a freebee!
( The bad news being if I had been paying for it the man never would have gotten his final check, but old boys club being what it is, he got paid because after all he HAS A WIFE & CHILDREN!) He bulldozed all the good top soil away, and left me with 100% acid sand & gravel! He broke down the berm at the road's edge, allowing the road runoff, grease oil, salt, directly into my front yard, well, and basement which caused me $300. in heater repairs that winter due to the water in the basement. Old lady that I am I could tell it wasn't right, but the BOYZ "in the know" let it slide inspectors & all!
3 years later, many $ and bags of top soil & manure from the hardware store later; ( the DOT didn't do any road work in the area so my request for more topsoil went unheeded) I am finally getting a somewhat reluctant garden.
That said, I had to to drive ( a 25 year old diesel rabbit to Fla,from Maine, THAT'S HARD WORK", wish George had been around to do it for me) to see my 92 1/2 year old Mother. She has lost her memory for words, ( her most important tool all her life) but I can tell she has thoughts she wants to express but can't.

SO I am grieving for the loss of my still living Mother...........my son, my profession, ART, my COUNTRY, my ability to support myself in the manneCspanwas AWOL last night!r to which I HAD ACCUSTOMED MYSELF in better times..........( nothing fancy just keeping up with the accelerated pace of planned deterioration of necessary things........trying to keep up with the ever updating, profit mad, insane, Steve Ballmer ( CEO of Microsoft) and the legacy of Carli Fiorina, the profit mad, ex CEO of HP..........)
ANd YOU KEITH OLBERMANN, let me down badly last night! AS did Dan Abrams!
Being ALLOWED to watch the uplifting, hope producing speech by AL Gore,( only chopped a bit at the edges, was good.............BUT THEN YOU CUT OFF OBAMA! You interrupted the natural flow of hope, possibility of change, and substituted, the gray, colorless, blather of boring pundits to tell me HOW TO THINK about Gore's speech!
I am a mature adult, wisdom gained from life's tough experiences, IQ in the 140 range. I don't need you to think FOR ME!
I did give you another chance at 10:00 the rally in Detroit being delayed into abram's show..........YOU STILL PUT THE PUNDITS ON, INSTEAD OF REPLAY OF WHAT OBAMA HAD TO SAY.
SINCE THIS IS THE GUY WE ARE GOING TO ELECT PRESIDENT, IT'S THE VERY LEAST YOU COULD HAVE DONE!
Cspan was AWOL last night!

[1Hippiechick]

533. EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ HER POST, IMHO!

:pals:

[speedoo]

512. Oh bullshit.

Russert could have easily made KO's "Worst Person" list many times if KO were actually objective about it.

No one, including KO or the OP, will tell me how to react to Russert's passing and the ridiculous, unending blather that followed.

[Fluffdaddy]

514. Sometimes every now and then, liberals are their worst own foes

[Geek_Girl]

515. Part of Tim Russert's Legacy was he allowed his show to be used by Cheney for War Propoganda

Unfortunately many fine journalist have fallen into that mess.

American's who strongly opposed the war will view these journalist as "propogandist" and have nothing but contempt because of the strong role they played, in the Iraq Fiasco. Unfortunately Tim Russert did not live long enough to come out from under the dark cloud of Iraq.

Personally I kind of liked his show.

RIP Tim Russert

[JNelson6563]

519. Frankly, I'm just glad

I don't care nearly enough to be wrapped up in this media creation. My gawd people. The critics, the canonizers, the cross-draggers, finger-pointers and soap-boxers. Give it up.

Lemme put it to ya real simple-like....

This is (still) going on in the world:



and so is this:



and all other manner of atrocity one can imagine. Can we be done with this drama now please?

Julie

[Swagman]

522. Big battle ahead..it's time to unite behind Barak Obama

no point everyone tearing themselves apart over this. On reflection-whatever Tim Russett did-good or bad-cannot be changed now.

Grief does odd things to people and they react in different ways-KO ( and everyone else)is entitled to let out his grief whatever way it works for him.

We should all agree to disagree.

[Tarc]

524. This is fucking ridiculous

This glossing-over and pseudo-deification that goes on when someone dies is simply nauseating. Its like all of one's past misdeeds are instantly whitewashed in this rush to eulogize and wax poetic. I say "good fucking riddance" to any swill that played a part in this administratino rushing the country to a needless war;

http://husseini.org/2008/06/how-russert-et-al-planted-the.html

[Phillycat]

526. I didn't post anything about Russert, but who the hell cares what Keith Olbermann thinks?

We're supposed to censor what we say here because some celebrity might read it and think less of us? What a bizarre thread.

[Algorem]

527. Keith Olberman's the one that plays the "liberal" on that tv show,right?

[bridgit]

549. correct

[LynneSin]

528. Russert helped push this war.

I feel bad that he has passed away at such a young age and my condolences to the family. But Russert was part of the MSM that helped support this war and use talking points to get public viewing buy-in. There are thousands of soldiers who are dead or permamently damaged because of the talking heads like Russert who thought sending our troops to an unplanned war with no exit strategy was a good idea.

We can feel condolences without forgeting who this person was. Geez, does this mean if it's Coulter or Limbaugh we all have to play nice & sing Kumbaya for them too?

[Phred42]

529. Russert wasn't a Journalist - He was a Reich wing ENABLER

Unless you have some Orwellian definition of Journalism

He was a Reich wing ENABLER

We only know this publicly because he was FORCED to testify under oath. Is there more?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Washington Journalism on Trial -http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2007/...

...snip...

For Russert, yesterday's testimony was the second source of trial-related embarrassment in less than two weeks. The first came when Cathie Martin, Cheney's former communications director, testified that the vice president's office saw going on Russert's "Meet the Press" as a way to go public but "control message."

In other words: Sure, there might be a tough question or two, but Russert could be counted on not to knock the veep off his talking points -- and, in that way, give him just the sort of platform he was looking for.

and.....


Tim Russert, at the Lewis Libby Trial, February, 2007 (recounted by The Washington Post's Dan Froomkin)
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/24/halbe... /

If you're a journalist, and a very senior White House official calls you up on the phone, what do you do? Do you try to get the official to address issues of urgent concern so that you can then relate that information to the public?

Not if you're NBC Washington bureau chief Tim Russert. . .

When then-vice presidential chief of staff Scooter Libby called Russert on July 10, 2003, to complain that his name was being unfairly bandied about by MSNBC host Chris Matthews, Russert apparently asked him nothing.

And get this: According to Russert's testimony yesterday at Libby's trial, when any senior government official calls him, they are presumptively off the record.

That's not reporting, that's enabling.

That's how you treat your friends when you're having an innocent chat, not the people you're supposed to be holding accountable. . .

For Russert, yesterday's testimony was the second source of trial-related embarrassment in less than two weeks. The first came when Cathie Martin, Cheney's former communications director, testified that the vice president's office saw going on Russert's "Meet the Press" as a way to go public but "control message."

In other words: Sure, there might be a tough question or two, but Russert could be counted on not to knock the veep off his talking points -- and, in that way, give him just the sort of platform he was looking for.

Russert's description of how he does business with government officials came when prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald asked him whether there were "any explicit ground rules" for his conversation with Libby.

According to someone taking meticulous notes at the courthouse yesterday, Russert replied: "Specifically, no. But when I talk to senior government officials on the phone, it's my own policy our conversations are confidential. If I want to use anything from that conversation, then I will ask permission."

[DearAbby]

532. Over 500 Replies and on dial up....

I got in to reply!!!! :bounce:

[Sundoggy]

535. People who celebrate death...

...have nothing to complain about when it comes their way.

[Balderdash]

537. When did it start to matter

what Keith Olbermann thinks? I can't stand his sexist, misogynist ass. Shame on KO. Sheesh....

[texanwitch]

547. This is Tuesday and people here are still going on about Timmy.

He was a tool for the Bush and his war.

I don't get it.

The middle of the county is flooding, that is a little more important then a bunch of talking heads going and on about Timmy.

I have been watching live streaming from Iowa, what is happening to our people there is more important.

People there have last everything and some of them loved ones.

Tim is dead, let him die already.


There are people in this country that need your concern.

Get off the cross, somebody else needs the wood.

Like a lot of flooded out people in the midwest.

[bridgit]

550. Russert, peace be unto him, was a product of M$M, they paid him by the column inch...

so as to say, as is the way if such things. M$M, paying too many Georgetown mortgages for asking too few questions of any long term benefit to America and the world. And even if not Russert himself though he beat the drum asking himself too few questions of even Cheney sitting right there in front of him as did many in our vaunted 4th estate; M$M stood in line for their embedded, AD dollar generating passes into military personnel carriers and onto a battlefield so tightly managed as to constitute propaganda.

Having posted my thoughts elsewhere on the subject which any & all are free to search; KO, having found his 'voice' via his demographic, is being paid likewise. KO is imo a M$M tool.

Safe passage Tim and God Bless, you went too sudden, too soon O8)

[Zhade]

553. The hagiography is ridiculous. He was a tool of the conservative corporate media.

NT!

[BootinUp]

568. Much of the hate filled nonsense on blogs/forums

1) prevents serious discussion
2) lowers the credibility of blogs and forums as tools for serious discussion
3) is used by our opposition to further number 2.