I Had One Of "Those" Conversations With A Hillary Supporter Today...

[JimGinPA]

A very nice woman who has been a summer tennis instructor for my kids - for my older boy the last seven years and my younger the last four. While the kids were playing she came over and said she had seen my car a while ago parked by some courts near her house and said she wanted to rip the signs off my car. (During our primary I had rally signs on my back side windows so people knew who we were while canvassing & things - I only have a bumper sticker on now)

She said "You should see what I have on my car." I asked her if she still had "W/04" on there and she said "God no! I have 'Hillary' bumper stickers all over it." Then I told her at least she was in the right party and she hit me with the, "I might not vote this year, unless Hillary is the VP. I don't think Obama has the "experience" yet to be president, at least on foreign policy. She said he was "okay" on the domestic issues like the economy but she just isn't sure if she can trust him. We talked a little about the war and the Supreme Court and she said she was really pro-choice. Her husband is a teacher at an inner-city school so "No Child Left Behind" is a big deal for her too.

I had never talked about politics with her before. I guess there are a lot of people I know I've never spoken with about politics, so I'm going to make a point of bringing up now whenever I get the chance. I have a couple of weeks to work on her. In the past the lessons were twice a week for a couple of months, with a little tournament at the end, but this year they've cut it back to every day for two weeks with the tournament the last day. So I'm going to gently work on her a little every day. She's going to be my new challenge.

[tabatha]

1. Good for you!

Obama will change foreign policy for the better like no one has before him.

[Overseas]

2. Sounds like a gentle approach. Good idea.

[niceypoo]

31. Indeed, the 'approach' used during the primaries is what drove them away in the first place...

Visciousness has backfired, time to start acting like progressives again.

[Cha]

3. Good..you have an opportunity and a

wealth of information at your fingertips. The Environment, the war, health, education, ect, ect..and the irony is Obama and his Team are going to be the best on Foreign policy of anyone.

[papau]

4. might not vote this year, unless Hillary is the VP"- I've heard that a thousand times among seniors

[ingac70]

5. If that is the case, and the Repubs win...

under McSame they will get exactly what they asked for.

[Blue-Jay]

7. Really? A THOUSAND times?

That's pretty impressive.

[gkhouston]

55. perhaps he spends a lot of time around some seniors with short-term memory problems. n/t

[papau]

82. LOL - true - but long enough to still be allowed to vote

[VotesForWomen]

8. correct; i think seniors could make or break obama. he needs to do some serious work there. nt

[Bake]

49. My mother, in her 80s, is very disappointed Hillary lost

She says she may "stay home." I suggested that she can't do that; it just guarantees McSame wins, etc. etc. I've got a while to work on her. And the first person to call her a Repub is gonna get my boot in their ass; she's NEVER voted for a Puke and never will.

The point is that Obama DOES have some work to do with seniors, especially women. It does no good at all to say, as I've seen repeatedly here, that "they deserve McCain." They don't. They just need to be persuaded. Candidates are SUPPOSED to woo the voters and persuade them.

Our candidate, and WE, have work to do.

Bake

[Patiod]

65. I think "no income tax on those over 65 earning

I know some seniors who would be swayed by that feature of Obama's tax plan, if it were publicized

[shimmergal]

79. It make a good sound bite, but actually,

the seniors who need help most wouldn't benefit, because their incomes are so low they already pay no income taxes. Most seniors living on social security and a small monthly pension are in this category. Ideally, the social security COLs would be revised upward to reflect the real rise in cost of living, but given that REpubs want to do away with social security entirely, that's probably not going to happen.

Another idea would be something comparable to the Earned Income Credit, but applied to those who worked a certain number of years earlier in their lifetimes.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

68. People need to realize that Democrats have problems with the senior vote,

not just Obama. The Democrats have lost an entire generation of voters to Reaganomics, unfortunately. But Obama can remind them that they will get tax breaks from him and that social security won't be touched. On foreign policy issues, Bush got it wrong for 8 years and McSame represents a continuation of a failed policy. I really don't understand why McSame is so appealing to people but evidently he is. As for staying at home, that's the same as voting for the Repugs.

Hillary and Obama don't part on many issues at all. They are both corporatists, but one is DLC and the other is not.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

23. I hope those seniors like the taste of cat food. Because if McCain wins, they'll be eating it.

[faithfulcitizen]

38. oh my!

:spray:

[CatnHat]

37. More than just seniors

its amazing the mindset of some to think that it is only seniors who have a problem with the VP question.

[DailyGrind51]

43. Any senior who votes for McCain or stays home in November,

would do just as well to stick his/her head in the oven because the net effect of another Republican administration on seniors would be slow suicide.

[blonndee]

83. Just bet you have.

[VotesForWomen]

6. just so you know, not everyone who doesn't like obama is/was a republican. nt

[JimGinPA]

9. I Live In One Of The Reddest Counties In PA...

But Obama won here in the primary.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

11. They might as well be.

cause there is nothing that Obama has done that would bring on the irrational hatred that "some" have for him or his wife. What in the fuck did he do? Beat Hillary? When did that become a crime during a primary contest? I can understand someone being disappointed that Hillary didn't win, but to dislike the other guy, who did his best, considering, to keep the kitchen sink in the kitchen, is just plain irrational. Folks need to grow the fuck up.

[Bake]

51. They're not all "irrational hatred," either.

Some people stay home if they don't feel that they have someone to vote FOR. My mother, case in point. She's not a "hater." She's not "irrational." She's disappointed that Hillary lost, but she doesn't "hate" Obama.

It's easy to make broad general statements when one is as involved in politics as we are. Most of America is NOT that involved. That's why we have to convince them that they DO have someone to vote for.

Bake

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

69. Stay home = Vote for McSame = Vote for Dumbya = Irrational n/t

[Bake]

72. Then you need to make sure they understand that.

As opposed to looking down your nose self-righteously at them.

Bake

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

76. I don't look my nose down on anyone. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand

that by staying home, you give McSame a license to continue these failed and corrupt policies of George Bush. There's nothing to patronize anyone over; of they don't know that then they deserve what they get when McSame wins.

[Bake]

81. "If they don't know that then they deserve what they get ..."

More like, if they don't know that, it's because we haven't done a good job of communicating our message.

Bake

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

77. ETA: If they dislike Obama so much that they simply cannot stomach voting for him,

then DON'T STAY HOME!! At least go and vote for Democrats on the "down ticket." We need more good Democrats in Congress, especially the Senate. It is my hope that they don't take their disdain for Obama out on the entire Democratic party by staying home. That is simply irrational, and I'm not being condescending, either.

[Flying Dream Blues]

14. And just so you know, people who hope for the repubs to win aren't democrats, either. nt

[Shakespeare]

22. They might as well be.

Spiteful abstentions are just as harmful as a vote for McCain.

[Bake]

50. They're not all "spiteful."

My mother is not "spiteful." She's just not convinced about Obama.

Generalizations can be dangerous.

Bake

[Shakespeare]

53. One can have doubts and still be able to pull the lever for one's ultimate best interests.

No, it's not a generalization. If she hasn't made up her mind, that's one thing--but if she's going to withhold her vote (or vote for McCain), that's quite another.

[Bake]

60. It's still early in the GE campaign.

Ultimately (after I've had time to work on her ... LOL) she'll do the right thing.

I'm just saying let's not broadbrush those who are undecided so far, or not yet convinced. Not everyone is a political junkie the way most DUers are. That means we still have work to do.

Bake

[Shakespeare]

66. Absolutely.

:thumbsup:

[blonndee]

84. Condolences on your tombstone.

[JimGinPA]

85. That's Strange...

They deleted a couple of her posts on this thread but didn't TS her then.

[countmyvote4real]

13. I don't understand "those" warrants either. I don't need to. Logic is on our side.

But we do have to listen to them to understand their logic and priorities. If they still can't cast their vote for the Democratic nominee then their logic and priorities are already flawed. They would no doubt insist on the inclusion of "presumptive" with Democratic nominee as if there is an impending deux ex machina moment waiting to happen. Obviously, the presumptive part of this rationale will go away after Denver. And yet, there will still be some passionately uninformed voters that will proudly shoot themselves and the rest of us in the face. What can you do?

Look and wait for a crack in their logic.

I was not so good at patience when I first found DU. I'm still not so good with it and my immediate family, but I've learned that my 80yo parents are both faith based and Fox hypnotized bots. No logic can penetrate that kind of lobotomy.

Back to the current experience issue:

Obama is not stupid. He didn't get this far against another terrific potential Democratic nominee without surrounding himself with good advisors. He spun and won this nomination on good advice and his own judgement in seeking diverse POVs. And speaking of judgement, he was on record against the Iraq invasion and subsequent occupation when my junior NY senator thought otherwise. What experience was needed then that we don't have now? (an apology, anyone?)

I'm still not very good at being nice about it.

Good on you, JimGinPa.

[Beacool]

15. I empathize with that woman.

He does not have the experience. A lot of hubris yes, experience? not so much.

[JimGinPA]

16. He Has More Elected Experience Than The Person Who's Pictured In Your Avatar Though...

Though she did have more exposure. The talking point is tired and without merit.

[Beacool]

17. Oh yeah, he was a state senator.

How could one forget? Great presidential resume......

:eyes:

[JimGinPA]

18. As Opposed To Wife?

This battle is over. Your candidate lost. Vote for McSame, stay home, whatever, but could you please stop shitting on my threads?

[monomach]

19. I wouldn't bother, Jim.

The person you're arguing with will not be with us much longer.

"...and as his formerly blank slate gets filled in, more and more people are not going to like what they see." - from earlier in this thread

That ought to get it a tombstone.

[Beacool]

20. That quote is not mine. n/t

[Beacool]

21. She's been in the US senate 4 years more than Obama.

He's the nominee, but that doesn't mean that all of the sudden the reasons why people didn't support him are going to disappear. That woman has a right to vote or not vote as she pleases.

I would say the same if Hillary was the nominee and someone chose not to vote for her. It's their right, that's why we live in a democracy.

[JVS]

25. He's been in elected office for 4 more years than Hillary

He also managed to win the nomination of the party. It probably helped to have experience campaiging. His record is now 6-1, while HRC is 2-1. She wasn't up to snuff, no matter how hard her former president husband pulled strings for her.

[Beacool]

40. I disagree.

I don't think that running unopposed in the state senate (his first run when he managed to get his opponents thrown off the ballot, including Alice Palmer) is something to brag about. His stay in that senate was ho-hum until his last year in office when Emil Jones gave him many of the bills he signed, even though others had done the actual work.

I find Hillary higher qualified for the job. As far as him winning the nomination, he never closed the deal. He only won due to the SDs, as admittedly she would have too.

Well, it's water under the bridge now and he's the nominee.

[DevonRex]

63. WTF is wrong with you. Even though it's over you spread RW bullshit.

And then end it by saying water under the bridge. I call bullshit and bullshit and bullshit.

[JVS]

73. Excellent question.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

34. As opposed to the rigors of being First Lady.

:rofl:

[Arugula Latte]

47. Yeah, like "First Lady" is a great presidential resume, huh?

:rofl:

[JVS]

24. Hubris? How? Or are you just bashing the nominee?

[uberllama42]

57. Abe Lincoln had a nearly identical resume

when he ran for president. In fact, Lincoln was a failed businessman and had lost three elections before winning the Republican nomination in 1860. There are no parallel episodes in Obama's history.

A lack of executive experience is not necessarily an impediment to being an effective president.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

70. Neither does sweet Hillary...and First Lady doesn't count. ;)

[styersc]

26. Her apprehiension was well reasoned and shared by many

millions of voters both Democrats and Independents. As a liberal/ progressive I am apprehensive to tie so much of our political capital and future to such an inexperienced and untested candidate. I wish we (as a party) had made a less personality driven choice.

Regradless, Obama is the candidate. The most we can hope for is a strong back-up team including cabinet, advisers and Democratic legislature. Additionally, as the electorate, we will have to ride Obama's ass from day one. This position is not confrontational, this is the responsibility of every voter in a democracy.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

71. "such an inexperienced and untested candidate"

:rolleyes:

[rox63]

27. First, explain to her why not voting is almost as bad as voting for McCain

Then go into all the reasons why allowing McCain to win (by not voting) would have horrible results for many of the things she and her family hold dear. Once she agrees with you on that (any reasonable Dem would agree), start trying to sell her on Obama and his policy proposals. This may take some time. But if it works, it'll be worth it.

[genna]

28. Did this tennis instructor say what made her the most distrustful of Obama?

When my mother was an avid HRC supporter, she said she didn't like the fact that Obama seemed to be everything to everybody. She wanted him to take a stand on things that were important to her: affirmative action (are you going to enforce programs where women are trained and advanced in the workplace or are you going to pretend it is a boondoggle for minorities), withdrawing on the Iraqi War, and identifying/defining the key factors in the 'war on terror' (so we know when and if it will ever be over).


She told me I didn't understand all the things women her age had faced out there in the real world (it is a generational thing and this pc world isn't what's really going on) and HRC would never do a variety of things. Mom was set and was not turning back. If we talked too long, she said she was entitled to her opinion and I was entitled to mine.


What changed her mind is HRC did those variety of things Mom believed she never would have done. Mom had already voted for her. She was disappointed but she did not instantly become a Barack Obama fan. She is taking her time to "get to know him." She definitely doesn't like McCain echoing Bush and thinks he's just too old considering the way she has changed as she's gotten older.

[flpoljunkie]

29. As Al Gore pointed out last night, the same things regarding inexperience were said about JFK that

are being said about Obama, and Gore actually read the quotes before he told us it was JFK they were speaking about--not Barack Obama.

You want experience? Take Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld!

[Phillycat]

30. You just can't let it go, can you?

For all the cries of "Your candidate lost. Get over it.", it's you people who keep bringing up old shit, over and over again, just to get a rise out of people. Shouldn't you be concentrating on getting your candidate elected?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

33. Well to balence things out

I had a conversation with our village pharmasist yesterday, a Jewish man, probably in his late 60's, who has long been a very staunch Republican. I don't know it he still has it up but at least until recently over in the corner of the store he had a signed letter that he got from George W. Bush framed and on display.

Janet asked his advice on a brand of vitamins and he told her those were the type that he took himself, to which she teasingly responded "OK, as long as they don't make me vote Republican". He chuckled and said "Good one" and then he added "So you don't I'm all bad, I will vote for Obama." That part wasn't a joke, he meant it. It was the last thing we expected to hear him say.

[NashVegas]

35. self-delete

[LWolf]

36. NCLB is a big deal to me, too.

I'm a teacher.

It was the only real difference I found between two unappetizing candidates; HRC confronted NCLB, and she didn't support right wing proposals for public ed.

I'll be honest: it will be hard to convince people to vote for a candidate who supports further destruction of their profession, regardless of how eloquently it is spoken. It will work for some if you play the "lesser of 2 evils" game, but not for all.

You'd do better to convince Obama to take better positions on key issues like Public Education.

[Beacool]

41. The teachers are some of her greatest supporters.

I saw them work so hard in every state I volunteered. Same with the nurses and doctors. I remember a physician in particular in Reading, PA who came from Dallas and had put his practice on hold for a week to volunteer.

I became good friends with one of the teachers in PA and she brought be back a T-shirt from Hillary's concession speech (I wasn't able to attend).

[PatGund]

52. Which is interesting

I'm the IT director at a school.

It seems that 99.9% of the staff, including ALL the teachers, are for Sen. Obama.

I know a few other teachers as well who are all for Sen. Obama.

I don't think education is a monolithic block

[LWolf]

75. Education is not a monolithic block.

I also know many teachers who support Obama. They set aside his positions on public education because they support other parts of his platform, or because they buy into the mythical but unspecified "change" theme, or because they simply would not consider McCain.

I also know some teachers who will vote for McCain, although those are rare, and some who will vote 3rd party.

As a whole, Obama will probably get most of the teachers' votes, but he isn't universally popular. He himself admitted that his positions get him "in trouble" with teachers...for good reason.

[faithfulcitizen]

39. okay, so she is a repub woman who would have switched for Hillary. But she isn't a democrat.

oh well? I know lots of cross overs for Obama, people who would otherwise never vote for a democrat. I still think Obama nets more indies and repubs than Hillary ever would have.

[sudopod]

42. ...but she just isn't sure if she can trust him.

It really aggravates the hell out of me when people say that.

What's more untrustworthy about him in comparison to any other politician?

[faithfulcitizen]

45. I think it's his epidermal shade.

[DeschutesRiver]

44. Hillary didn't have foreign policy experience /responsibility either

Despite her claims, she did not broker peace in Ireland. She was not under sniper fire doing dangerous foreign policy work during that meet and greet with the 8 year old on the tarmac in Bosnia. Attending foreign functions in the capacity of First Lady along with the dude (her husband) who was in charge of foreign policy matters is not foreign policy experience, no more than someone's grandma with frequent cruise line adventures in every port could claim it either. As an independent, fierce old woman, Hillary embarassed the snot out of me with her exaggerations. I kept thinking "you are setting women back ages with these lies, disortions of experience and the like." People like her shouldn't be taken seriously - I don't take them seriously in my own life, male or female - and with so many hoping a woman would fail, why the hell did she have to be such a freaking weak sister?

Every woman or every man who goes along with their spouse while they are on foreign policy missions are not engaged in the handling of those foreign policy decisions. They are simply along for the ride - I will not call Laura Bush a better foreign policy expert than Obama simply because she has globe trotted and chatted and given speeches while on trips with George (of course, despite his hands on experience and our expectations that he is more up on foreign policy because he is our president, I wouldn't give him much credit either).

I don't know what has happened to people's abilities to reason, if they really believe that only one candidate can possibly have the right stuff. Tell her to read the history of our presidents - each of them. And to reflect on what the role is of a president -she is giving far too much weight to the exact wrong attributes for which we should be looking. Hillary is just one of many potential people who could be a president - which is how it should be. Despite the Clintons' claims to the contrary, there were plenty of candidates as or more qualified than her for the job. She is out - so pick another one. This ain't a dictatorship, where we pretend that we need the guidance/firm controlling hand of a single "special" person.

Tell her it is a fucking democracy and to get on with her responsibilities as an adult citizen. And to do some freaking reading and historical research, and come to a new conclusion, now that Hillary is old news for this election cycle. If she isn't capable of doing that much, then write her off. Our country will move on despite people who can't reason well. That sadly is true whether Obama or McCain take office in the fall. She'd be better off working toward an Obama victory instead of McCain, but if she can't handle it, then go suck back some more lattes and cry in them. You are a far better person than I for choosing to work with her to help her make better choices and get "unstuck" on this Hillary crap. You are probably far younger than me....

[zulchzulu]

46. I'm waiting to see if people start attacking you for making this up...

Good for you to try to talk some sense into her.

If you need some ammo, send her this:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/zulchzulu/209

If she REALLY cares about the war, the Supreme Court and is pro-choice, sitting this election out or voting for McCain would be the WORST thing she could do.

If you need info on Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials, etc:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4398442

Good luck with her. She just needs more info.

:thumbsup:

[faithfulcitizen]

78. LOL!

[Arugula Latte]

48. I don't recall a significant group of any other candidate's hardcore supporters acting like this.

I was a Dean person, but it never occurred to me to oppose or not get behind Kerry the second he was the nominee.

These dumbasses make me sick. They didn't get their way, so they're holding their breath and stomping their feet like the spoiled brats they are.

[Shakespeare]

54. As a woman, I'm utterly horrified by it.

I mean, seriously, what the fuck?

[Arugula Latte]

I'm a woman and I agree. These idiots are going to not vote or vote FOR the anti-woman candidate

because their candidate didn't make the final cut? :wtf:

[Evergreen Emerald]

58. two things:

There has never been a valid female contender for President before. And the vileness with which she was treated rubs people the wrong way.

And I read thread after thread of Obama supporters suggesting that there would be protests in the streets if obama lost. So, I beleive that the same issues would be occurring no matter who won.

And: I remember a similar reaction when Anita Hill was treated so horribly by the Senate. That of course was not a Presidential election, but it certainly can be considered.

There are two minds: those who will get on board after mending, and those who truly believe that the democratic party has proven that they are no better than the republican party.

[Arugula Latte]

59. Just because she was a "valid female contender"

doesn't mean she automatically deserved the nomination or the vice presidency. She was a deeply flawed candidate, don't forget.

I don't get where some people get their total sense of entitlement to a Hillary nomination/presidency.

Yes, she was treated badly in some quarters, and so was Obama. And so was Dean. And so were other candidates/nominees in the past.

[Evergreen Emerald]

62. I never said she was entitled to anything

but an even playing field.

I do believe that this is all a moot point as the primaries are over--except what we can learn from it to better protect the women of America.

[Shakespeare]

61. If anyone truly believes the democratic party is no better than the republican party...

...then they need psychiatric help. The differences between the parties are starkly clear.

And the fact that LARGE numbers of women disagree about how Hillary was treated should give you a little pause, and make you think about the subjectiveness of that view.

[ingac70]

56. Since she voted for W in '04...

I think it best she stay home. As long as she ain't voting for McCain, that's all that matters.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

64. Ask her why it is that both Hillary and McSame got it wrong on the war, while

Obama got it right.

Also, ask her a very serious and poignant question: how does one's service in the military and being tortured for 5 years make one qualified to speak out on foreign policy? In other words, ask her just what it is about McSame that makes her believe that he's better suited on foreign policy issues and could therefore protect the country?

Ask her how she feels about attacking Iran even though there aren't enough troops.

Then, ask her how she feels about the fact that it seems as though everyday McSame is making major mistakes and getting the facts about Iraq wrong. He doesn't know how many troops we have in Iraq. He doesn't know the difference between Sunni and Shia. He doesn't know who the new Russian president is or who the chancellor of Germany is.

Most disturbing, his voting record on Veterans is abysmal. He continues to vote against veteran benefits and salary increases. Even the veteran organizations give McSame a very low score. Obama gets a B+.

Ask her how she feels about these issues.

[Patiod]

67. One of our friends has come around

She was always sending us tons of pro-Hillary, anti-Obama emails, even up until recently.

Today she sent out that popular "Why I'm Voting Republican" video, which I can only take to mean she sure as hell ISN'T voting Republican come November.

If this woman can come around, a lot of other folks can, too.

I'm still not wearing any Obama gear to her upcoming annual Soltice party, though....

[JimGinPA]

74. Update - Tuesday...

We talked briefly again between the lessons (my boys are in different lesson groups). She hadn't heard about the Gore endorsement, and she got a kick out of the "Even Your Dogs & Cats Know Elections Matter" line. I guess a lot of people don't follow the "latest" news as closely as many of us here do.

Oh, and for those who mis-read the OP, she never said she voted for Bu$h, I just asked her if she had.

[shimmergal]

80. Everyone--

The "just get over it" isn't going to work for a lot of disappointed and on-the-fence people. It'll just alienate them further.

Educating them about Obama's actual positions and plans is better. But that may not take them all the way either.

What reluctant would-be supporters really want and need is to have their concerns heard, and spoken to. This is _supposed_ to be a country and a party that prizes freedom of speech and opinion; telling people to shut up and just support the nominee is exactly the wrong tack to take.

I hope there is an opportunity for this (speaking to their concerns) within the campaign as it goes on. Insisting on groupthink or groupspeak is counterproductive.