My letter to Obama on his FISA vote

[jgraz]

Senator Obama,

I am absolutely disappointed and disgusted with your announcement that you will vote for the latest capitulation on FISA. You had a golden opportunity to stand up for the people who got you the nomination, and you have failed.

This is not the kind of "change" that I expected from you. Where are your values? Where is your love for the Constitution? When will you stand up and demonstrate the leadership that this country desperately needs from you?

I have supported you during the primary contest, but I have limited tolerance for this kind of failure. If you want my support (and my time and my money and my advocacy) you are going to have to show me something better than this.

Sincerely,
jgraz

[Lugnut]

1. Perfect,, jgraz.

I'm beyond disappointed about his support of this bill.

:kick:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

5. Threads like this are a good way to separate the real Democrats from the kool-aid drinkers.

Guess which one you are.

[K Gardner]

65. Just the fact that you're calling people who won't bash Obama "KOOL AID DRINKERS" is telling. If

I'm a kool-aid drinker, guess what you are. Besides rude and uninformed..

[jgraz]

93. Maybe I should just call them assholes. Oh wait, that would get my post deleted.

[K Gardner]

139. Yes, I guess that's why you EDITED your 'kiss my ass' comment, isn't it? Holier than

thou doesn't become you..neither does dishonesty and disingenuity.

[jgraz]

141. Holier? No. More mature? Most definitey.

[thewiseguy]

3. Very rude letter

I am going to put you on ignore for this.

[jgraz]

6. Oh noes! I'll miss the your brilliant political dialogue.

Wait... no I won't.

[QC]

20. I think you are supposed to be devastated.

I can't quite figure out why so many of the newbies think that everyone else is as fascinated by the contents of their ignore lists as they are. It's all they talk about...well, that and threatening "pizza deliveries" to all and sundry who dare to post something they disagree with.

It's all so ninth grade--"Marcy tried to talk to me but I just looked right past her and kept going! That showed her!"

[jgraz]

27. Sorry I took so long to reply. I was sobbing into my pillow.

:crazy:

[QC]

31. I understand. How could one not weep

at the thought of being denied such penetrating political insight and scintillating wit?

[Runcible Spoon]

33. what is with this trend of annoucing ignores?

do you get a cookie or something? It's childish to say the least.

Loved the OP's letter, bravo!

[QC]

36. Apparently it's what all the kool kiddies are doing now. n/t

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

86. Didn't you make a big Broadway production number of putting me on ignore

just a couple of weeks ago?

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

90. Please put me back there and spare me the lunatic drama

that seems to be all you have to contribute to this forum.

I am tired of your stalking and nonsense.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

107. You have a very troubling pattern of making personal attacks.

Perhaps you need to take some time off from DU until you can get a grip on your feelings.

[Catherina]

111. Oh blah blah. Your record of not having a grip or supporting the nominee speaks for itself n/t

[QC]

115. I haven't posted anything nearly as critical of Obama as you have tonight.

You have been quite harsh in your attacks on him tonight.

Since the primary ended, I have not posted a single criticism of Obama here, and I plan to vote for him, just as I have voted for every Democratic nominee in every election since 1984, my first.

If you support the nominee, you certainly have an odd way of showing it tonight.

[Catherina]

122. It's called not being a craven opportunist. You'll get over it I'm sure n/t

[QC]

126. Who are you calling a craven opportunist?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[Catherina]

127. Good one but no. I'm calling people who excused war votes and cluster bombs on kids

craven opportunists. I'm sure you were quite sure what I meant there but good one anyway.

[QC]

134. Actually, I agree with the criticism you have raised tonight.

I was likewise unhappy about the FISA business, though I can't say I was disappointed, since disappointment requires at least a little bit of surprise and I am quite used to our "leaders" folding every time the GOP says "terror."

I actually came very near putting up a post applauding you for your willingness to make constructive criticisms of a candidate you support so strongly, but decided against it after I saw that bizarre attack you made against me a few posts up. Still, though, I agree that any candidate's supporters are the ones who have to hold him or her accountable. Who else can do it? You have made that point very effectively.

I must confess to a bit of schadenfreude, though, at your complaints about the treatment you have received this evening. In your time here at DU, you have seldom missed a chance to pile on anyone who has expressed even mild reservations about your chosen candidate. You have been one of our most avid warriors these past few weeks, with blood in your eye and curses on your tongue, but now you complain that people are stomping on your wounded little heart just because you expressed a constructive criticism of a candidate to whom you are clearly very loyal. Well, you helped create that atmosphere. Enjoy it.

[Catherina]

51. Don't, please don't. I made a similar phone call to Obama HQs and told them to check my donations

There's serious disappointment over this. Obama needs to confront it now before he loses even a single person who's been working their grassroots ass off for him. I gave the man most of my Christmas bonus ($2,300 max) and then most of my raise (again $2,300). If he doesn't listen to us, who will he listen to?

I don't want him to lose the election. This election is going to be won on principles and Obama must step into the leadership shoes he sold us. This is no time to cave into the craven opportunism of the old crowd. I did the hope part wiseguy, when do we get to the change part?

Let Obama hear our displeasure while he still has time to respond. One reason I like him so much is because he's more moral and responsive but hope isn't enough. I need the response and need to see him standing with moral leaders like Feingold, Wexler and Leahy- not standing with spineless CYA people who looked the other way when Bush gutted the constitution.

[The River]

4. Wrong Battle

Wrong Time.

I give him more credit than to think he really supports this.
A no vote opens him up to charges of being "weak-on-terror" going
into the campaign season.

I can hear the talking heads on Faux Noise 24/7:
"Why did Barack H. Obama vote against FISA? Could it be he is trying
to help his fellow Muslims in the Middle East elude detection when they
call the US."

He is going appear to moderate back towards the (mythical) center for the GE.
If he doesn't piss off the "Left-Left" from time to time he could be
accused of being too far Left himself.

Have some faith that he knows what he is doing
in the long-haul.

This sh^t (and a lot more) can be undone in '09

[jgraz]

7. He's supposed to be a "different" politician. Sue me if I expect more from him.

[bleuvixen]

8. Hope. Change.

those are the only 2 values he has? What about PRIVACY, way to drive a steak thru the 4th amendment. I was EXCITED to vote for Obama, now I am soooo disappointed right now. Forget politics, forget the spin, he had a chance to uphold what he is supposedly all about and he has failed me and failed you.

I say FU if you think this letter is rude! Destroying the constitution is RUDE and DISGUSTING. Obama, stand up now and show some spine, please!!!I have no one left to vote for, don't make me abandon you too.

EDIT:

You said: Have some faith that he knows what he is doing in the long-haul.

HAVE FAITH in NO MAN, when you put your trust in men you will be disappointed EVERY TIME.

You said: This sh^t (and a lot more) can be undone in '09

DON'T do it in the first place for political gain, is that what WE want? SHOW A SPINE do what's right not just what will get you in the WH. Kerry wavered and failed because he was spineless, if Obama keeps pulling this he will fail too no matter how honed his message is.

[jgraz]

9. Excellent point -- my letter is "rude". Pissing on the Constitution is "pragmatic".

BTW, "drive a steak thru the 4th amendment"? I know what you meant, but that is too funny. :rofl:

[bleuvixen]

10. Right on.

I added to the post, you reply too fast :-p

Men....sheesh

[IndependentDem]

16. off topic. but...

"HAVE FAITH in NO MAN, when you put your trust in men you will be disappointed EVERY TIME."

whats up with the sexist bullshit? it does go both ways you know.

[bleuvixen]

21. that is a quote

I did butcher it but...

in the time of the quote men was meant to mean mankind, not the sex. Hope that clarifies.


Support the platform, support the ideas, support the stance & the view as a collective, one man is not the movement, don't put all you faith in him/her.

[IndependentDem]

26. cool thanks....

sorry for being an ass and jumping the gun.

[cliffordu]

34. Not to be nasty or snarky - but if you feel that strongly about it

this could be the wrong place for you.

:shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

39. whatever. anyone who has an interest in upholding the Constitution..

and expecting more from Obama, since we KNOW he is capable of delivering, is welcome here. Nice to know you have appointed yourself Offical DU New Poster Litmus Tester :eyes:

[cliffordu]

The anger and vituperation is what I'm talking about.

Your attack is telling, however.

[Runcible Spoon]

49. wow two of you in one thread.

Tell me to my (internet)FACE that you think I'm a troll. Grow a fucking spine and say it instead of cloaking your bullshit. Have some guts.

[cliffordu]

53. Anger management?

I think your way off base with the previous insult.

[Runcible Spoon]

56. I have done nothing to insult you, I have merely challenged you to follow through with YOURS

have a nice life, you're wasting my time.

[Catherina]

63. No, no Clifford. This is the RIGHT place! If we don't make Obama responsive to us,

then who will he be responsive to?

:hug:

[cliffordu]

73. I believe writing letters is a fine thing - I've done it recently -

It is the sudden vituperation over this that really surprises me....

1. He is a Constitutional Law Professor.

2. Although he said he supports the bill -- with some modification-- he has NOT voted on it:

3. Let's see what he does when it hits the Senate. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets stalled or dumped along the way. Maybe someone (like that little tiny fellow with all them articles of impeachment) will filibuster, maybe it'll get referred back into some black hole of a committee for some procedural shenanigan...

4. Obama hasn't misstepped on any significant issue yet. There is a SPECIFIC reason he is doing this and although he hasn't let us in on it, there has GOT to be a good one. He hasn't come this far to fuck up as badly as a lot of people on this particular thread seem to think he has.

I have enough faith in him to wait to see what happens in the Senate.

In the meantime Grantcart has stated all this better than I ever could right here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6391733&mesg_id=6391733

[Catherina]

94. I am sending you a PM. Please check it in 5 minutes >>>

Grantcart's thread is fine but I'm afraid Obama just broke my heart. I'll still support him but if he doesn't fix this quickly, my oomph decreased. I'm sorry but I'm that passionate about real change and believing he'd show real leadership.

[IndependentDem]

11. my thoughts exactly!

i completely understand his political motivations and if it were some other politician i wouldn't care as much.... but he has said that he is above these political games.

this definitely upsets me but it is not going to change the fact that he is still better than McCain and therefore i must do everything i can to get him elected.

[The River]

102. I Won't Sue Ya

I respect you actually. Back when you and I were both pulling for
Edwards you had passion and logic. This post is not logical but it is passionate.
I won't sue but I wish you'd think about the points I made.

on edit my previous #4....
it is the Right Battle but it's still the wrong time.

[Runcible Spoon]

35. There is ENOUGH shit to "undo" to last 500 presidencies without piling on more!

as supporters of the campaign and voters with a conscience, it is out DUTY to tell Obama that shit like this is NOT acceptable.

A president is supposed to represent the people who elected him, who put trust in his judgment to make the right decisions. I do NOT want Obama to start pandering before he has even won the election; my belief that he is strong enough to avoid bowing to special interests and vote his conscience is why I support him. ENOUGH of this collapsing to the status quo!

[FrenchieCat]

12. Hope you watched John Dean on KO this evening.

[jgraz]

13. I plan to. What was the gist of his comments?

[Barack_America]

14. There are battles and there are wars.

It's best not to get them confused.

That's all I have to say.

[jgraz]

18. We can't win the war if we cave on every significant battle.

The object is not to get a President with (D) after his name. The object is to elect a leader who will help fix this mess we find ourselves in.

[Catherina]

64. Exactly n/t

[ruggerson]

24. Yep

[Zodiak]

15. I wrote a very different letter...more supportive and strategic tone

I urged him to make good on his promise to fight and join a filibuster should the final bill contain immunity. I think I just heard on Malloy that he will be doing just that. Very smart....he has to put his name out there opposing this, not just vote "no" to a foregone conclusion. I certainly hope that Malloy is right because if so, Obama is off the hook in my book.

It will pass. We all know it will, filibuster attempt or no. This is a failure of leadership, first and foremost, and we need to place the bulk of the blame where it belongs. And while we are at it, we need a cohesive strategy to oust as many Bush Democrats as we can in the next election cycle. Believe it or not, we defeated a number of them during the primary in this cycle....DFA has been emailing me about it for months.

[AuntPatsy]

17. I hope your view is prophetic.

[jgraz]

23. I'd love to see your letter -- especially if it's more diplomatic than mine. ;)

[Zodiak]

29. I wish I could, but I sent them in web forms

I already tried to retrieve them and all that saved was my name and address. I sent one to his Senate office and one to his campaign.

LOL...I'm long winded, so it is probably all for the better, anyways.

I wrote a letter like yours to Pelosi, though. :evilgrin: Reminded her that her oath was not to protect the American people from our enemies, but the Constitution from our enemies. Also told her of her fecklessness and disappointment as a leader and made a pledge to push for her removal from the Speakership.

[earth mom]

19. The denial is thick around DU, but glad to see some are waking up. nt

[Cha]

28. You have no room to talk about "denial"

so don't even try..that would be hypocritical of you.

[earth mom]

120. What in the hell are you talking about?

:wtf:

[Catherina]

70. You miss a very important point. The activist movement supporting Obama

is very "Hold Them Accountable". There's no waking up. Most of us always knew we'd have to hold his feet to the fire. This doesn't at all vindicate Hillary who told us to vote for the other guy if we didn't like how bad her shit smelled.

Unlike the people who whitewashed Hillary's craven opportunism, we will hold Obama accountable and hold his feet to the fire.

[earth mom]

135. Sorry, but I've seen this before with Pelosi. NO ONE-not even your Obama is gonna do anything

but what the corporations who are actually in control of the U.S. are telling him to do.

The sooner everyone realizes this the better.

FYI:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3492571

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3493450

[cliffordu]

22. Uh, Obama is a Senator and not in the House.....

So he didn't vote.

Maybe he will try to amend the bill like he said he would when it hits the senate.

Maybe it'll get buried there.....

Too bad we're not all as pure of heart as you are.

[jgraz]

25. He announced today that he would vote in favor of it.

And how "pure of heart" do you have to be to expect your President to stand against the destruction of our civil rights? It is too bad if most people think that's not worth fighting for.

[cliffordu]

32. He ain't the president yet.

Let's see what happens in the Senate.

And by the way - Ask the non-violent drug offender what your fucking civil rights are worth, really.

This illusion that we are free in any way except to buy all that we can afford (and then some) is really curious to me.

[jgraz]

46. But he's the leader of the Democratic party. He needs to step it up.

[cliffordu]

50. That is easy for you to say.

Too bad he doesn't have the benefit of your acumen and experience.

I'm sure he could navigate the turbulent waters of Washington and the legislative process.


I wonder if he expects more out of his supporters....?

[jgraz]

82. Apparently you're hoping he expects less from us

Less as in: less input, less activism, less thinking for ourselves. I guess for some, the Obamabot label wasn't that inaccurate.

[cliffordu]

85. HE HASN'T VOTED ON IT YET.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZBlue]

41. There's absolutely no reason to be so rude and vile.

[Runcible Spoon]

44. I can think of nothing ruder or more vile than openly insinuating that someone is a troll.

and bragging about your alerting. Ughh.

[QC]

48. Those are also violations of the civility rules,

not that those seem to matter much anymore.

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground....

Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member....

[Runcible Spoon]

52. Yep, lucky for them I'm not an alert button humper.

I save alerts for when posters are over the top abusive. I like for bullshit to stand so the person producing it can be judged by its (lack of) content.

[jgraz]

45. Really. You accuse me of being a concern troll and then play the victim.

Damn... are you sure Obama is the right candidate for you?

[Runcible Spoon]

42. oh disgusting.

this is the kind of tripe that is ruining the spirit of open debate and true, concerned hashing of the issues that I came to love DU for. Coincidentally, you are not allowed to openly insinuate that a poster is a troll or whatnot. If you are truly concerned, alert quietly. But you won't get any attention for that, will you?

You ought to be ASHAMED.

[AZBlue]

58. I think it's fair and civil to let others know when I've alerted their posts.

As do many others on this board.

Oh, and please don't ever dare to tell me whether or not I should be ashamed of anything I say or do.

[QC]

61. It's a rules violation to announce an alert.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[Runcible Spoon]

62. you should be ashamed of breaking DU civility rules.

sorry I can't accommodate your request :eyes:

[AZBlue]

77. Sorry honesty bothers you.

[Runcible Spoon]

97. LOLOLOLOLOL.

"honesty"..you throw that word around like it's feathers. I love the way you think smearing your stinky self-righteousness around by "politely" telling people you think they are trolls are are reporting them is "honesty"

But thanks for the laugh, made my merlot taste a little sweeter. Why don't you go back to humping the alert button like a Hungry Hungry Hippos game. The grown-ups have actual issues to discuss.

[AZBlue]

99. Have a fabulous evening, Farce!

I see you've obviously had a bad day and that's a shame, but I hope your evening gets better. Take care of yourself! :hi:

[AuntPatsy]

55. You seriously believe hers or his outrage to be a reason for alert?

Ummm, I used to believe the democratic party cared about the rights of ordinary citizens, and if that still holds true today, outrage against anyone attempting to screw with our rights should be not only welcome on a democratic sight but wanted...wouldn't you think?

The person in question has already said they will vote Obama as will many others that feel exactly the same outrage...calm down, do you honestly wish to be in a place that reek of bushite followers?

[AZBlue]

69. No, not at all - as I stated in my post.

If you read my post, you'll see I alerted on it because of the threat within - a threat that sound like false concern and an attempt to work against the Dem nominee.

Would you rather have Obama vote the way you wanted him to for this particular vote or have him win the White House? Do you know what else he's said about FISA and that he will carefully monitor the bill as President to make sure it doesn't overstep it's bounds and trample over innocent citizens? Do you know that he's probably likely to overturn this as President? Do you realize that one of the areas the GOP is most likely to hit Obama on is national security?

And, most importanly, do you really think there's a candidate for any position out there that will agree with your opinions and views 100% of the time? If not, is that any reason to say you won't vote for the Dem nominee, which is the very threat within the OP?

[jgraz]

89. Which was your interpretation of what I wrote. Which was wrong.

But instead of asking for a clarification, you called me a troll and announced your alert. Maybe next time you could be a bit less knee-jerk. (Oh, and knock off the passive-aggressive victimhood while you're at it)

[AZBlue]

95. You said:

If you want my support (and my time and my money and my advocacy) you are going to have to show me something better than this.

[jgraz]

103. You continue to miss the point. See nsd's response below.

S/he had the same interpretation, but instead of calling me a troll and alerting, s/he just asked me to explain.

I guess you just like drama more than dialogue. Good luck with that.

[Catherina]

78. Please back of jgraz. Some of the strongest supporters are really hurting right now

and we have every right to talk about it constructively without drive-by sniper fire or accusations of treason.

[AZBlue]

81. Again, as I said in my post:

I have no issue with not agreeing with something Obama says and does. I don't agree with everything he says and does.

I do have an issue with any poster on DU claiming it's a reason to not support the Dem nominee this year and possibly encouraging others to do the same.

I don't know how I could have made that clearer in my first post.

[Catherina]

87. Where has jpgraz encouraged not supporting Obama?

Some of us are simply disappointed and immensely so. Heart-broken is more like it.

I am only asking you to respect strong Obama supporters expressing their displeasure. Obama needs to hear it from the people who worked their asses off for him.

[AZBlue]

92. Right here:

If you want my support (and my time and my money and my advocacy) you are going to have to show me something better than this. In other words, do exactly what I want you to say and do or I won't support you? Please.

Again, my problem was with that sentence - nothing else in the OP. I feel he's going to right this wrong once he's President and therefore am not that frustrated by it - but I can understand if others are and of course they have the right to express that.

[jgraz]

98. Again, that's your interpretation. You asked for no clarification. You just pounced.

pretty bad behavior on your part.

[AZBlue]

100. So, explain.

[AZBlue]

106. You could have said that without all your name-calling.

I ALWAYS admit when I'm wrong - you can research it if you want. I also go back and change posts or delete whole posts when I've been wrong, I have NO problem doing that. I'm no mind-reader, I can only go by what you post. And I see no weakness in admitting when I'm wrong, none whatsoever.

But now that you've called me all sorts of names, I'm no longer sure what to think of what you wrote. I see what was first written, then I see your explanation but then I also see your behavior. So instead of thinking any more about it, I'm just going to go enjoy my evening elsewhere. Have a good night! :hi:

[jgraz]

114. Again. Hate to go all third-grade on you, but you started it with the name-calling.

Anyhow, I meant that our support means Obama has a duty to step up and lead. I was pissed of an didn't express it as clearly as I could have. Consider it a "proud of my country" moment.

[Catherina]

104. :( I feel the same way despite my immense financial and time investment

I'll still vote for Obama but this is taking some air out of the activist bubble to work our butts off for him. My HOPE is that he'll hear the displeasure and respond positively. He still can and I trust he will. Please forgive those of us who are so disappointed we're talking about it online. I'm going to sleep now hoping it won't hurt as much in the morning. Jpgraz is going to vote for him too, we just need time, answers and action. I'm so sorry; maybe we shouldn't be online now but who do we talk about this with if not fellow Obama supporters?

[goldcanyonaz]

116. LOL, your concern is also noted

:rofl:

[Swingstater]

38. Once we have absolute majority in congress, we'll get it done

Let's be patient. We'll have veto-proof majority starting January.

[nsd]

40. Iraq war, environment & climate change, abortion rights, economic justice, health care.

(You can add your own favorites to this list.)

On all of these issues Obama is on the "side of the angels", whereas John McCain most certainly is not. No thinking person can argue that an Obama presidency would not be preferable to a McCain one.

And yet, you're saying that, because Obama has failed this purity test on FISA the blogosphere has set up, you may not support him? Really? Wow -- just wow.

[jgraz]

43. No, I'm not saying that (though I can see why you would think that)

My letter is just not as well-written as it could be (my "proud of my country" moment). I'll vote for Obama no matter what and I'll probably bust my ass volunteering and send in money just like I did in 2004 and 2006.

But, I want him to understand that our support means that he has a duty to fulfill. He doesn't have the option of not leading at this point. He has to step up and become the President we need him to be.

[nsd]

47. OK. Point taken.

I might have misread what you wrote.

I agree that we need to hold Obama to a high standard, but my view is that we also have to recognize that he's a professional politician -- not a crusader, not a saint -- and he's going to disappoint us from time to time.

[nightrain]

54. ugh, I share your sentiments. I am VERY disappointed as well.....

Is he no different than other politicians? Damn! There better be a successful filibuster. I was going to work on the moveon bakesale to raise money for him tomorrow. I don't think I will now. He's better than McCain, yes, and I will vote for Obama, but he just lost my energy. Is it true that he doesn't oppose the death penalty? And he's not in favor of gay marriage. What about nuclear power? Did I hear somewhere that he favors nukes??? So, in my distress, I ask, HOW IS HE DIFFERENT?

[TexanDem]

57. Rude, crude, and unnecessary. He knows what he's doing. If you really support him...>

then you should show him a little bit of confidence. Once he's in office, he will be able to take many more actions that will bring justice to things that he can't now. He's got to get elected. If he's not facing enough from the Repugs and the media, he's got to deal with people who are so arrogant to think that every minute detail has meet their own personal approval. I'll wager he knows the Constitution a hell of a lot better than you do. Give it a rest!

[cliffordu]

60. DING DING DING We have a winner!!! Exactly right.

[jgraz]

68. Exactly wrong. Save your faith for church. All politicians get the "show me" treatment.

Was all that "yes we can" stuff just talk, or does Obama really believe in bottom-up politics? If he does, he's more than smart enough to know that "we" will make ourselves heard.

And NOT just when we want to tell him how awesome we think he is.

[TexanDem]

74. You're the one w/ all the faith. You think he shoud fix the whole country with one freakin' vote!

[jgraz]

80. Don't be stupid. His vote is the least he could do.

As the newly-ordained leader of the Democratic party, he could have had this bill killed before it ever saw daylight.

[cliffordu]

84. Maybe he'll do that, quietly, when it hits the Senate.....

He has already said he wants to modify it.....

[TexanDem]

105. There's some things in the bill they don't want killed. It's achieving something. I think (edited>>

we should be a little bit patient. Did you listen to the discussion on Olbermann tonight about this with John Dean? Olbermann was a little disappointed (and I was too knee jerk reaction when I first heard it) but John Dean was seeing how this could be an overall strategy that Obama could still prevail to see to that justice is done in the end. (maybe you can catch it on a rerun). We really do have to give him some maneuvering room here.


edited to add this link:
Did you see this thread -- it's a different perspective
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6391733&mesg_id=6391733

edit #2
John Dean on Olbermann YouTube is now up --
http://youtube.com/watch?v=smcP43FVNqM

[AZBlue]

79. Exactly. And who thinks any candidate is going to do and say 100% of what they want.

And certainly don't threaten to not vote for the Dem nominee. Especially when it's over only one issue - and an issue that anyone who knows anything about Obama knows will be corrected once he's President.

[JohnnyLib2]

59. Well, now. OP got the ignore treatment, then the troll treatment and

the reliable old "thank you for your concern." Get ready--there are stronger and uglier ways to try to shut you up.
:banghead:

[Runcible Spoon]

66. :(

it's kinda scary how quick people are to squish even the most constructive criticism.

[QC]

67. I'm sure the Official Alert Alert has already gone out. n/t

[jgraz]

71. Meh, I've been here long enough that I've gotten ALL the treatments

Some people are children, and not nearly bright enough to understand nuance.

[Solon]

72. Some people prefer us to be mindless cult followers rather than being an informed citizenry...

talk about having contempt for democracy!

[JohnnyLib2]

76. God forbid that dittoheads should metabolize......

:hide:

[Catherina]

83. Fuck it. I'm going to sleep now. 2 full hours early because today Obama broke my heart

and apologists are stepping on it with high heels.

He fucked up and deserves a swift kick in the shins.

When do we start holding a politician accountable? AFTER he gets full power? OMFG. I am so disappointed today that I better shut up right now.

Here's fucking leadership http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x149879 not the spineless pandering MY candidate showed today.

STOP EXCUSING THE CAVING IN!

[cliffordu]

91. Catherina, please. I consider you a friend and I want you to PLEASE understand

just because he said what he did today is not the same as actually voting for it - He can steer this - gently - towards oblivion, and I predict he will.

But he cannot play his hand openly - this whole thing is "political."

Keep the faith. I am.

[Catherina]

125. I have no choice but to keep the faith and I will to the bitter end

I'm sorry for sounding so down tonight. I'll keep the faith because the alternatives are so much worse and there's something about Barack that makes me believe :hug:

[AZBlue]

96. Do you want him to be President?

Do you not have enough faith in him to do what's right once he is President? Do you not realize that political elections are games and that any other vote would have been handing the GOP ammunition on a silver platter? I'm glad we have a candidate who doesn't fall into their traps.

[Solon]

108. Anyone who has faith in a politician is a fool...

That's a simple truth. However, that doesn't mean that we don't want Obama as president, we just have to be aware that to trust him in anything, AFTER the election, is foolhardy. Feet to the fire, that is what it is all about, at least Obama may be vulnerable to our influence, McCain wouldn't be. That is reason enough to vote for him.

[Catherina]

110. Well put. Thanks n/t

[Solon]

117. I feel like I should put this in my sig line...

"Just because I don't like the guy, doesn't mean I won't vote for him."

Considering how many times I've been accused of being a Republican, Hillaryite, Naderite, etc. on this board, I feel this disclaimer may be needed. I've eviscerated Obama several times during the primary, and I'm not going to let up now just because he's the nominee, nor am I going to let up after the election. I'll gladly volunteer to hold a red-hot iron to his feet personally if it prevents him from doing the wrong thing while in office.

[Catherina]

121. I feel the same about your last sentence and I say it with great love

If we don't hold them accountable, who will?

:hug:

[Solon]

128. Exactly, I fear too many people are becoming complacent...

and that's dangerous in a Democracy such as ours, politicians aren't our friends, they are our employees, they have a job to do, and we are their boss, so we better tell them WHAT to do, because no one else is going to do it.

[Catherina]

109. Yes.

$4,600 penny-pinching, hurting worth of yes but faith isn't enough. I need some of the action and leadership too. I'm very aware of their game. So aware than I can see through this CYA game and it hurts to see Obama play along with it. He's still the best viable candidate out there but he mustn't take our votes for granted. That would be a disaster. For every person like me who has the courage to post my feelings on DU, think how many there are who aren't writing about their disappointment. I don't want Obama to mess this up because this country is dead in the gutter otherwise.

[Bluenorthwest]

132. Faith is not something

that should be needed or given in politics. Obama claims he wants an activist population, and this is what it looks like. Deal with it. Not many Democrats do the worship at the alter thing. It does not mean we do not support our nominee- it means we think he works for us and want him to do the right thing. Cheerleaders never actually win the game, they just shout and jump about. So go ahead and write love letters in the sand if you wish. Others will speak their minds and support as they see fit.
Others are often unlike yourself. Funny isn't it?

[BklnDem75]

123. Did he vote?

Could you please stop overreacting?

"It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act."

There it is in plain English. He supports the compromise but not the immunity. At least wait until the vote is cast before getting worked up. If he votes for a bill that includes immunity, I will join you in your anger, but at this time, you and many others, especially staunch Hillary supporters, are getting worked up over a headline.

[Maureen1322]

112. I am confused. I can't believe Obama will vote yes on this.

I need to hear how he justifies this vote.

[dailykoff]

131. I don't get it either.

Even if it's a shameless political ploy, how the hell does it help him in November? :shrug:

[charlie]

113. Very good

It's what he needs to hear.

NAFTA was passed with promises to fix its excesses. A decade and a half later, presidential candidates still campaign on pledges to "fix NAFTA." It'd be comical if it weren't deadly serious.

[goldcanyonaz]

118. Well done!

[balantz]

119. Right on!

Where is our Democracy if our Constitution is not guarded all the way?

No waffling allowed on that one.

[cliffordu]

124. Lotta love in this room tonight.....

:rofl:

[Catherina]

129. Well sometimes it's tough love but you know how us Black folks get

;)

[dailykoff]

130. I can't really see why he would take this position.

There's no way this is going to win any citizen's vote in November, right left or center. Think of how sweet it would be to say in a debate "unlike you Senator McCain I don't support spying on our own citizens" etc. Now he gets to say "yes John terrorists are scary and you're the man to protect us. You have my vote, Senator McCain!"

It's frankly a mystery.

[Tatiana]

133. Good for you. I sent him another message asking him to find 41 votes in the Senate

to block this measure. There was nothing to be gained from lecturing the House. They didn't listen to their constituents and they wouldn't have listened to him either. Their minds were made up and they sold us out a long time ago.

We've got another shot at stopping this thing in the Senate. Not that I believe they'll do anything different than the House, but you never know...

[rodeodance]

136. Right on!!!

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

138. Thanks, Lirwin. You never disappoint.

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

140. Very similar to the e-mail I sent...

since his normally responsive campaign staff is
miraculously unreachable now.

Mine included a promise to hold off on
contributions until the bill hits the
Senate.

I am spitting mad at Pelosi, Hoyer, et.al