Why is Obama getting killed by his own for his pragmatism?

[onetwo]

Someone asked in another thread, "If Obama is making these decisions now, how do we know how he's going to be when he's no longer accountable to the voters?"

And, to that I say, "EXACTLY!"

He will no longer be stuck in a tug of war for the low-information voters that are still very much susceptible to "fear" tactics.

He will no longer be encumbered with the task of gaining support amongst demographics that currently force him to compromise his message.

I think we can all see that Obama in GE mode is doing what he has to do to get elected. On impeachment. On AIPAC and Israel. On GE campaign finance. On the new FISA bill. NO candidate could have played it any differently than Obama did and survived. That's why Kucinich and friends are where they are and Obama is where he is.

The Republicans have been winning because they don't particularly care about how they look WHILE they're on the path to victory. (Queue up some videos of Bush circa 2000. In retrospect, you will be shocked by some of the things he said during his campaign.) They realize that real change doesn't happen on the campaign trail!

At the end of the day, we can be reasonably sure that the positions Obama will take during this campaign will be the most compromised of his entire presidential career. We have to realize that this is out of NECESSITY as the road to the White House becomes far too tough for an already 'unlikely' candidate if he goes the other way.

During the past seven years, we've seen what a bad president can do when he's no longer worried about polls and winning elections. Imagine what a GOOD one may accomplish -- the odds are great that Obama will make as many good, principled decisions as Bush made bad ones.

[zeemike]

1. I hope you are right

But I am tired of being plunked by politicians.

[Labors of Hercules]

24. Hope is that the People will do what's right... I KNOW Obama will. nt.

[zeemike]

26. Well don' worry there is no other choice....n.t

[marshall]

29. It's all part of the game...

Take everything he says now with a grain of salt--he has to get elected one way or another in order to get in office and get done what he wants to do.
Just take a deep breath and wait until November.

[rug]

2. After serious consideration, I conclude bullshit.

[babylonsister]

3. Now there's a shocker. nt

[cliffordu]

5. Yep. I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I say!!!

:rofl:

[rug]

6. Imagine how I feel having to come to that conclusion.

Who thought it would come to this?

[PassingFair]

8. I think it's bullshit, too.

FISA already provides warrant-less surveillance.

The people are looking for leadership and change.

Let's give it to them for a change.

Obama will NOT compromise on this.

[ananda]

4. Newsflash.

Obama was leading McCain, and his lead was growing.

No matter.. he'll still sell American rights and
protections down the river.

[FrenchieCat]

10. The bill will still pass.

Whether McCain or Obama ends up at 1600 pennsylvannia is the question outstanding.

[onetwo]

12. Step out of primary mode. There is no growing "lead."

Nobody's voted yet.

This is NOT the time for Obama to be taking ideological stances that hardly affect the general public going forward yet expose him to potentially fatal attacks from the right. This is one place where he can follow Bush's lead -- the time to do that is AFTER taking office!

[Breeze54]

19. Yeah, and people don't read the polls.

:eyes:

What polls? Huh? :sarcasm:

[onetwo]

48. I suggest you revisit the way the polls looked in 2007.

I agree, "What polls?"

[PassingFair]

25. You go ahead and keep your powder dry, honey.

You'll need it to spot cover the brown stains on
your nose.

He WON'T WIN unless he goes after the enemies
of the public good.

[Raksha]

31. Why can't more people see that?

Re He WON'T WIN unless he goes after the enemies
of the public good.

The way to show strength is by standing on your principles, and letting the world SEE that! And that's precisely how Obama has gotten this phenomenal movement behind him.

It just drives me crazy that the Repukes know most Democrats will back down at the faintest suggestion of "We'll paint you as soft on terrorism." That motheaten threat works every single time! The Dems are afraid and everyone KNOWS they are afraid--and the Repukes exploit that fear to the hilt. And when the Dems cave in (again) it makes them look like exactly what they are...WIMPS AND LOSERS!!!

Who respects someone who runs up the white flag in every rhetorical battle, who gives up without a fight...every single time? Is THAT the kind of person you want to entrust with your security?

The way for the Dems--not just including Obama but ESPECIALLY Obama!--to prove they have courage is by standing up to the Republicans. To stop allowing themselves to be bullied.

Obama has to realize that the Repukes will play the fear card ANYWAY, no matter what he does or doesn't do, because that's ALL they've got. There's no way he can stop it...except MAYBE by refusing to run up the white flag for a change!

[tabatha]

7. Obama said change comes from the bottom up. Again and again.

Once elected, he will listen to everyone and lead "by the people, for the people".

I cannot believe that people do not understand that.

[PassingFair]

9. He is where he is BECAUSE of the people.

"Once he is elected"...my ass.

He won't BE elected unless he
steamrolls over this corrupt
administration.

We are CRYING for it.

[onetwo]

15. Is this any better than RW'ers voting against their best interests because of fringe social issues?

This is just the Democratic version of that misguided thinking -- except, we vote AGAINST our guy.

[PassingFair]

17. This is not a "fringe" issue.

The MAJORITY of HOUSE DEMS voted against it.

The IWR was NOT A FRINGE ISSUE.

Obama is the candidate because he can
go up against the 'pukes on account of
his stand AGAINST it.

We MUST hold our candidates feet to the fire,
or we will be seen as ineffectual and WEAK.

Can it be ANY CLEARER that NOW is the time?

[tabatha]

42. Ok - Obama votes no.

He loses come November.

[provis99]

22. sounds like what we said in 2006

we all know how well that turned out.:sarcasm:

[JoFerret]

40. Hello...

...he is a politician like any other. Give Obama a break.

[tabatha]

41. There would be no support from the people if he had not run.

He can only steamroll over this corrupt administration after he is elected.
As one person, he has no power.

[Saturday]

11. And I cannot believe that people don't understand he's a politician. nt

[flyarm]

13. let see..lied about Nafta , about campaign financing...and now Fisa..

gee just another day in his majesty's life eh???????

[Breeze54]

20. Meet the new 'boss'...same as the .....

:mad:

[tabatha]

43. He did not lie about Nafta.

He did not lie about campaign financing.

He did not lie about FISA.

Please go to his site and read the fact check section.

[rodeodance]

44. just another day

[MNDemNY]

14. While other Democratic members of Congress are referred to as "spineless"?

Or are they just "pragmatic" as well?

[Breeze54]

16. Those pesky rethugs indicted had nothing to do with voters turning away. It was all Obama's charm!

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[Breeze54]

18. "That's why Kucinich & friends are where they are"- and the M$M & DLC had nothing do with it either!

:sarcasm:

Who writes your 'Fairy Tales' for you? :shrug:


What an ass.

[BzaDem]

45. I think you are missing the point. Of course the MSM had to do with it.

And because the MSM exists, certain things need to be done to win. Which is why Kucinich is where he is and Obama is where he is. One can whine about the MSM's undue influence, but that doesn't change the fact that it has undue influence and needs to be taken into account.

[populistdriven]

21. McCain didn't love America, until he was tortured into it. There are no atheists in foxholes either

Its the general election stupid, lets save these battles for after he is in the WH

[Orsino]

23. "Better than Bush" for sure, but that is no glowing recommendation.

To earn our praise, he should do more than simply not fuck up 24/7. We need a hero right now, and for the next president to hit the ground running. I want to see him act less like a compromising corporatist than every other president or candidate. Thus far those signs, while good to see, have been few.

[Runcible Spoon]

27. For the LOVE OF GOD/DESS, please SHOW ME evidence that surveillance bills are popular with ANY voter

I'm BEGGING YOU. I don't BUY the pragmatism bullshit, because this is the kind of shit that turned Joe and Jenny America against Bush, against cronyism, against cozying up to corporate greed, against the erosion of human rights, against endless monitoring of everything we do and everywhere we go.

I call BULLSHIT on this pragmatism explanation. This ain't "partial birth abortion", this ain't displaying the Commandments on a public building. It's NOT a token issue to make right-leaning indies happy; as a matter of a fact, both left and right-leaning indy voters are FAR more likely than establishment Dems to be aligned with a more Libertarian perspective which is completely antithetical to surveillance legislation.

[Raksha]

32. You are SO right!

Re I call BULLSHIT on this pragmatism explanation. This ain't "partial birth abortion", this ain't displaying the Commandments on a public building. It's NOT a token issue to make right-leaning indies happy; as a matter of a fact, both left and right-leaning indy voters are FAR more likely than establishment Dems to be aligned with a more Libertarian perspective which is completely antithetical to surveillance legislation.

As a result of this FISA debate, I have finally figured out where this mythical "center" is. It is NOT between left and right. It is between the people and the corporations!

[Runcible Spoon]

34. that is put so simply and elegantly.

"mythical "center" is. It is NOT between left and right. It is between the people and the corporations!"

:applause:

[Raksha]

47. Thanks...I was kinda proud of that one myself!

One of those light-bulb-over-the-head moments, ya know?

[PassingFair]

51. I know some chickenshit republicans that think they are being "protected"

by this. They see it as low-level "data-mining, just like
grocery stores do".

Other than that, I haven't seen any support.

Who could support widespread surveillance on
our own citizens?

Great post, by the way!

:hi:

[AZBlue]

28. K&R

[MoonRiver]

30. WHY?

Because they drank some Kool-Aid spiked with something labeled "hope and change." Guess it was pretty powerful stuff cause now that the high is wearing off, the hangover is excruciating. :hurts:

[Imagevision]

33. You mean to say that there are no mccain freepers in here playing ex-Obama supporters< get real!

[crankychatter]

35. ditto - nt

[Forkboy]

38. Certainly a possibility.

But don't discard the people who are genuinely upset (as they should be). Supporting someone doesn't mean giving them an automatic pass when they do something one doesn't agree with. While you may be right that there's some McCain supporters posing here, it would be a copout to attribute every instance of dissatisfaction as being because of that.

[flyarm]

46. maybe..just maybe there are Americans here who give a rats ass about our constitution..

or what used to be our constitution..you might try that on for once!

fly

[onetwo]

49. And you actually think Obama, a U of Chi Constitutional Law professor, doesn't?

At the end of the day, your choice in November is between a true-blue Constitutional scholar and... McCain.

[FourPieRun]

36. if he gets elected, isn't he going to have to think about *re-election?* uh huh, that's the way it

it works.

[LVjinx]

37. George Bush got re-elected.

[JoFerret]

39. These are same people (some of them)

who trashed Hillary.

They need life lessons.

[JoFerret]

50. Adlai Stevenson was a man of great principle

.