I wish Americans were patriotic enough to give up their obsession with SUVs, McMansions & GUNS!

[polichick]

Really ~ true patriotism is making a sacrifice for the common good. American selfishness is sickening.

Flame away...


(Edited "greater good" to "common good" as suggested below ~ it's more accurate.)

[fascisthunter]

1. Agreed

The US.S. has become one big shopping mall....

[BrklynLib at work]

2. hmmm. Is there a common thread running thru all these??

[polichick]

31. LOL - that's a great one!

[TheLP]

3. The Greater Good

Should everyone who lives in a Mansion give it up? If anyone doesn't give up their mansion does that mean they're unpatriotic?

[TBF]

73. I don't even want my 2500 sq foot house anymore with what it takes to

cool it (we rarely use the heat here in Houston - our heavy months are in the summer). But, yes, I feel everyone should give a thought to the other people sharing earth with them. We are fortunate to have a good salary and can afford nice things. I have kept my old Subaru wagon rather than trading up for the obligatory Lexus, and my priorities on expenditures are traveling, education, and giving to charities.

I have never been a huge fan of capitalism. It's hard to applaud a system that works when you step on others to succeed (which is pretty much what it is when you think about it). Granted it's better than a dictatorship, but you'd think with all the brainpower in this country we could come up with a way to raise the standard of living for everybody. Starting with basic health care, food, and shelter at the very least.

[Butch350]

92. Yeah

If you can't afford your mansion. That way no one has to bail you out. That would be patriotic!

[NRaleighLiberal]

4. I am with you....completely fed up with conspicuous, competitive consumerism (CCC?)...

While they are at it, I would like to see tobacco products and the vast majority of what is on TV disappear as well (shall we turn up the flame?!?!?!)

[polichick]

34. Even though my ancestors were tobacco farmers, I'd like to see...

...all that tobacco land planted in cotton, and grown organically.

[IndianaJones]

5. I wish they'd give up their stupid kids. nt.

[polichick]

30. I think we should be severely taxed for having more than two kids...

I could scream every time some selfish idiot takes fertility meds and has a whole litter ~ and it gets celebrated on every channel!

[Duke Newcombe]

70. Good luck in your new location...China should be nice this time of year. n/t

Duke

[Occam Bandage]

6. Okay, the first two I can sorta see. How, exactly, does a shotgun harm the greater good?

Hunting adds value to rural economies, is compatible with sustaining wildlife populations, and is a source of tax revenue. Properly used, stored, locked, and kept, a shotgun is not particularly dangerous.

[skooooo]

8. I don't mind that..

...but I don't get these people who cry "2nd Amendment" claiming that guns are the only thing that protects us against the government. There's no way in hell that handguns, or even automatic weapons are going to somehow save them when the gub'ment comes after them in their homes. Good luck with that one, dummies.

[Occam Bandage]

11. Oh, I agree. Handguns are useless in society, and your AR-15 isn't going to hold off The Gubmint.

[Irreverend IX]

25. Tell that to the Iraqis and Afghanis.

It's a real pain in the ass for an oppressive government to round people up if there are good odds that attempting to arrest a dissident will result in a hail of gunfire.

[skooooo]

26. Yes our handguns will protect us from the government.

:eyes:

Now, for the next fairytale, let's read Snow White.

[Occam Bandage]

28. We're holding back in Iraq. Why? Iraq and America have a free press.

If America were to lose its free press, and if the gubmint were to go after dissidents, it would be more Fallujah than Sadr City.

[Hippo_Tron]

88. They are trained for combat and have access to automatic weapons

The US civilian population isn't trained for combat and we aren't sitting on stockpiles of AK-47's.

[Irreverend IX]

98. Many members of the US civilian population...

Have more training than the Iraqi insurgents did before the war. And automatic weapons would not be a deciding factor in an insurgency. Full-auto is mainly useful for suppressive fire, forcing a group of enemies to keep their heads down. Apart from that, full auto is detrimental to effective fighting, since it's inaccurate and wastes ammo quickly.

[Hippo_Tron]

100. Define "many"

Because I'm pretty sure it is limited to military veterans and a few right wingers who like to pretend they are soldiers (if you even call that training). Iraq had a decade-long war against Iran in the 1980's and I would imagine that a substantial amount of their young men were trained for combat in order to fight in that war. Also remember that many of the insurgents are coming from other countries.

[Irreverend IX]

103. Millions of military veterans...

And many more civilians who've gone through intensive shooting courses at various training centers. There are many shooting schools where ex-Special Forces instructors will teach combat firearms techniques to private citizens, and thousands of students attend them every year. And an insurgent doesn't need to be able to run and gun, either. Any hunting rifle can double as a aniper rifle, and sniping is one of the most effective guerrilla warfare techniques. Anyone who can hit a deer from 300 yards can do the same thing to an enforcer in a theoretical police state.

[Duke Newcombe]

71. Hmm....there are some folks in Afghanistan and Iraq who may take exception to that. n/t

Duke

[Romulox]

7. Air Conditioning, overeating, Cross country flights (which use WAY more fuel than SUVS)

moving in their millions to the middle of the desert, then whining about lack of water...

[skooooo]

9. Airconditioning is a necessity for many people....

...who have asthma. Don't take that away.

[Romulox]

44. That's a new one! I had childhood asthma before central A/C was a "necessity"...

I'm still standin'!

[Occam Bandage]

63. And there are many who are not. Life expectancy has increased dramatically in the last half-century.

[TBF]

You live in Michigan. We didn't have AC in Wisconsin either, but now I am

an adult living in Houston and I would trade most of my possessions for AC.

[Bassic]

80. I've had asthma since I was a child.

Air conditioning, at least in my bedroom, has allowed me to get much better sleep and not a single asthma attack in years. So I tend to agree that it's useful for that.

[skooooo]

86. Gee we'll all try to be tougher like you then.

:eyes:

[democrattotheend]

67. I can't sleep if it's too hot

I have been trying to use the air conditioner more sparingly this year, but if it gets hotter than 72-73 I wake up sweating in the middle of the night and end up turning it on. I've been trying to avoid using it in the car though, but that does not save much energy because I hardly ever drive.

[TBF]

77. I have horrible allergies and the same problem - I tried 78 and had

too much trouble so I've got it at 75 now. I feel best in the Winter here in Houston, when it's low 70's and I keep the heat off. I give up other things though - no big SUV or McMansion for me. I'll be happily driving my little Subaru until it no longer runs & then I'll buy a new one :)

[Romulox]

82. Hotter than 72 - 73? Degrees fahrenheit?

I'm sorry, but you "need" A/C like I need Ben and Jerry's ice cream and like guys with little weenies need SUVs--it's a luxury in every case.

[skooooo]

87. You..

...are being really insensitive. Good thing you're not in charge of anything that would effect my life.

[democrattotheend]

102. I think so

I don't have a digital thermostat so I don't know exactly what temperature it is. It seems to shut off and I have to push it a few degrees back. I usually set it around 76 when I go to bed but wake up hot and end up turning it down.

[Occam Bandage]

15. Without a ir conditioning, many elderly, young, sick and asthmatic people risk death in heat waves.

Airplanes get between 50 and 80 passenger-miles per gallon. If you have two or fewer people in your vehicle, airplanes are more fuel-efficient than cars.

[skooooo]

18. Honestly without AC...

...there are times when I wouldn't be able to do much but sit still and watch TV or something.

[Romulox]

43. Airplanes have a greater impact on the environment, however, because of their altitude

Moreover, I submit that if you live somewhere where A/C is a "necessity", you live in a place that is inhospitable to human life. People have survived for all of recorded history without A/C, up until the last few decades, when it has been deemed a "necessity".

[LanternWaste]

59. So you're asserting

So you're asserting there were no natural heat related deaths in hospitable lands prior to the advent of air conditioning?

[Romulox]

61. Not in the least. One can heat or cool the moon to allow human life to subsist

That doesn't mean that moving the entire human population to the moon would be an environmentally sound proposal, however.

Likewise Las Vegas...

[LanternWaste]

75. This is where I got confused...

This is where I got confused...

"People have survived for all of recorded history without A/C, up until the last few decades, when it has been deemed a "necessity"."

Yet as far as I know, prior to the advent of A/C, many people had still died of natural, heat-related deaths in very hospitable lands.

[Romulox]

78. I think you are confused, because the question isn't on point with the underlying issue

People die of heat-related deaths in places that are otherwise inhospitable without A/C technology all the time to this day.

What does this have to do with whether or not it is environmentally sound to move a large portion of the United States' 300,000,000 people to the Southwest desert, merely because A/C makes it more pleasant to do so? Not a thing.

[LanternWaste]

84. Hoo-kay.

Hoo-kay. I'll just slowly back away...

[Occam Bandage]

64. Which is counteracted by their increased pax-m/g efficiency.

Is AC a necessity for life? No, most people would live regardless. Does use of AC decrease the likelihood of heat-related deaths in the old, the very young, the sick, and the asthmatic? Yes.

[Romulox]

76. Are those brown clouds over Los Angeles fueled primarily by the

energy usage of the old, the very young, the sick and asthmatic.

Ummm, no.

[Occam Bandage]

79. No, and I didn't claim that those people are the majority of AC usage, to say nothing of energy use.

I was only saying that AC does have positive uses as well as negative.

[JVS]

83. AC takes a lot less energy than heating. Should we all move South and save energy by not heating?

[Romulox]

45. One more thing: A half empty plane is NOT more efficient than a car! nt

[Occam Bandage]

62. Depends on the type of car. A plane running at half capacity will get 30-50 pax-m/g. That's better

than most every single-occupancy car, and comparable to anywhere from a double-occupancy SUV to a double-occupancy sedan. Of course, I'd challenge you to find any half-full planes nowadays. Load factors are higher than they've ever been; the average flight is at least 88.1% full at the moment.

[Romulox]

74. Similarly, it would ALSO depend on the type of the plane, and the distance traveled.

For example, private jets compare quite unfavorably with automobiles.

[Occam Bandage]

81. Private jets are absolutely atrocious, yeah.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. The gun issue is a complicated one.

What part of the country are you from? Were you born and did you grow up in an urban or suburban area? Do you know anything at all about rural Americans? About learning to hunt and shoot as a family tradition and rite of passage, as normal a part of father-son bonding in much of the country as playing baseball or touch football? Something that's passed down from generation to generation? Really, the gun issue (in terms of hunting and target shooting, anyway) is very much a matter of cultural difference. You can't really assume that what applies to an urban area as regards this issue will apply to the rural South or Midwest, and people from those parts of the country, who DO have those cultural traditions, are quite understandably angered that urban gun violence, which they have nothing to do with, is used as justification for making sweeping gun laws which don't take local differences in patterns of firearms ownership and usage into account. This doesn't necessarily mean these people have an 'obsession', either.

[polichick]

35. Half my family is rural (both North and South), and the rest split between suburbs and cities...

The problem with gun lovers (even if they are rural hunters and satisfied with their rifles) is that they will fight right along with the maniacs to keep assault weapons on the street. I'm sick of it ~ even if I do have a ton of gun-totin' relatives.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. There is no such thing as an 'assault weapon'

There is such a thing as an assault RIFLE, which is a fully-automatic military firearm; fully-automatic weapons have been illegal for civilian ownership since the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934. There is no functional difference between a semiautomatic Kalashnikov or AR-15 and any other semiautomatic rifle; the 'assault weapons' ban is silly politicised nonsense...'we need to ban these guns because, well, they're SCARY!', basically.

[polichick]

41. You just made my point about the "problem with gun lovers." lol

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Think that if you want, the only thing I see here is you revelling in wilful ignorance.

[Hippo_Tron]

89. The difference is that some semiautomatic rifles are marketed for hunting

And others are marketed in inner-cities with high crime rates. The Assault Weapons Ban was an attempt (albeit a lousy one) to forbid gun manufacturers from marketing and selling these products that are commonly sold in inner-cities.

Gun manufacturers want to sell guns to people that will use them in a violent manner because they make more money doing so and this practice should be stopped if at all possible. How you actually go about stopping it is much more complicated.

[harun]

12. I'm with you on two out of the three.

[redqueen]

13. I wish they were patriotic enough to pay attention. (nt)

[polichick]

29. Yep, me too.

[Teaser]

14. wish in one hand

and shit in the other...

and you know the rest :(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. and bombing people randomly. i think this is an extension of self indulgent behavior

[polichick]

47. "self indulgent" is putting it mildly!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. well its kind of self indulgent when you dont bother to check which brown people you are killing

so long as it makes you FEEL safer.

:hi:

[anonymous171]

17. The phrase "Greater Good" kind of freaks me out a little. And I like guns and the constitution.

[skooooo]

19. How about the "common good?"

That phrase is used in the constitution - no need to be afraid, even though the whole concept has become foreign to Americans after years of republican rule. Sad.

:hi:

[anonymous171]

20. I like that one. Tastes like American Populism instead of communism.

Nothing against marxists or communists, however. :hi:

[skooooo]

21. ...uh..if you say so

Common

Community

Commune

Communism

[anonymous171]

22. ARHG! Oh no! I've been brainwashed into accepting dirty communist values!

:rofl:

[skooooo]

23. lol...nt

[polichick]

27. Thanks - that's really what I meant, so I changed the op.

[villager]

24. No flames here -- they're all artifacts of stalled adolescence...

n/t

[polichick]

32. You're right - I've never thought about it that way...

Maybe we should add viagra and fake boobs!

[AndyTiedye]

33. At This Point More are Obsessed With How to Unload the SUV & the McMansion Before they Get Repo'ed

[olkaz]

36. I like guns. Sorry.

My family has been hunting for a looooong time.

I recycle, drive a fuel efficient vehicle (and walk when possible), and don't have a McMansion. I do what I can.

[polichick]

37. Do you support reinstating the assault weapon ban?

[olkaz]

38. I don't have strong feelings about it either way.

But if you forced me to pick, I'd say no, I don't support it.

I support closing gun show loopholes and support serious background checks and other safeguards, but I won't support an all-out ban. I know a couple serious collectors (the type of person that this would affect) and they're about the most careful people I know.

[polichick]

42. So it's more important that gun collectors are free to own such weapons...

..than it is to keep them out of the hands of drive-by shooters etc.?? That's what I mean about sacrificing for the common good.

[olkaz]

48. Nope.

I just don't see the huge benefit you see.

Is there an epidemic of automatic weapon drivebys in your town? I don't even remember the last time it's happened anywhere near me.

[slackmaster]

51. The "AW" "ban" had nothing to do with automatic weapons

:hi:

[olkaz]

53. I know.

I think it's the spirit of the legislation that the op is referencing.

[polichick]

52. Doesn't have to happen in MY town - as Americans, we should care...

...if it happens in ANY town ~ or inner city, as the case may be.

I think that's what patriotism is really about.

[olkaz]

55. Uh, no.

And that is totally NOT what patriotism is all about. We apparently have drastically different definitions.

I'm not a wacky randian libertarian or anything, but calling a ban "patriotism" scares me, honestly.

[polichick]

56. My point is that patriotism involves sacrificing for the common good of your country...

Being willing to give up the gas hog SUVs, resource hog McMansions, unecessary weapons ~ and a host of other things people are obsessed about because our society as a whole will benefit from the sacrifice.

[JVS]

58. Who died and made you the decider of what is a sacrifice or the common good?

I could just as well claim that the common good is for people to be able to defend themselves and the sacrifice we make for it is that some people end up dead. But we must make that sacrifice for freedom.

[olkaz]

65. Sorry, I just completely disagree.

The progressive position is to solve the underlying issues and increase the public's knowledge, not to just go around banning everything. We don't have to sacrifice, we have to innovate.

Energy is a problem? Find a new sustainable source.

Gun violence is a problem? Arrest the criminals, rehabilitate folks, work with law enforcement for sensible solutions.

As for mansions, I'm not against folks having mansions. I believe in capitalism. I'd like for them to pay their fair share of taxes and to use renewable energy for their huge house, but other than that, what's the problem?

I just don't understand why you think sacrifice and banning things is somehow "real" patriotism. I've never heard of that or ever heard someone talk like that.

[polichick]

72. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

That's the spirit of what I'm talking about ~ VOLUNTARY giving up of things that contribute to ENORMOUS societal problems. Americans help special interests maintain the status quo by their purchasing habits ~ we don't need Washington to tell us to buy green; we've known we should be doing that for 40 years already. imo the true patriot is one who is willing to make difficult changes in habits for the common good. That flag pin and troop ribbon stuff is empty symbolism.

[JVS]

57. whatever town that is happening in has serious fucking issues, and a gun ban won't solve it

[slackmaster]

50. False Dilemma

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

[silverback]

40. Does anyone? one of the worst pieces of legislation ever written.

The AWB doubled sales of military style centerfire semi automatic rifles, made non-compliant legal rifles more expensive and illegal rifles CHEAPER. The difference between compiant and non-compliant weapons was cosmetic.

Not to mention the political costs..

All bans accomplish is putting more weapons into circulation, people buy because they think they might not be able to in the future.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

95. No One Does After What Happened Last Time.

Or have you forgotten?

Also, are you in favor in picking and chosing what is relevant in the Constitution? The Second Ammendment is not as important as the First? Are you okay with Bush thinking the Fourth Ammendment is not as important as the others? What if Bush thinks the 22nd Ammendment is not as important and gives himself another term.

If your argument is that some ammendments are less important than others then there is no way the above scenario not be along your way of thinking.

My wife traded a part of her life to the Army in exchange for a college degree (ROTC). She worked hard as an Army Officer and as a college student. I have a good job but am not pulling down the money that she is. We have a decent house (not a McMansion, but then it is a matter of perspective) I drive a large Dodge Ram and she drives a Navigator. We have good college funds set up for our daughters. That is what we work so hard for.

If we are to have less than what we have now, then we will work that much less. Patriotism is not having your lifestyle dictated to you by what others think it should be.

[NatBurner]

54. my SUV is paid for

so i'm keeping it for a while

everything else tho?

:thumbsup:

[depakid]

60. Americans are basically cowards in this regard

and won't change until they are forced to hardship brought on by the very free market that they sold their children's futures out to for a little short term pretense, ostentation and abject wastefulness.

Same holds true with respect to guns and national security. America has basically become a nation afraid of its own shadows, willing to forego rational policies, build larger and more expensive prisons (the largest in the world) -and sell out its own childrens' birth right to a free and civil society such as was passed down to them by their own parents- and ultimately the founders- who they salute, yet in action disrespect.

Contrast that with a stand that evokes courage: former London mayor Ken Livingston.

Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life. I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous.

But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail. In the days that follow, look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.

They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live.

They do not want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.

Would that Americans might regain that sort of spirit, instead of succumbing to to fear, perpetrating outrages and oppressing their own citizens.

[olkaz]

66. You reference a city that has a surveillance camera for every seven inhabitants.

That's not courage, or patriotism, or even freedom.

That's a police state. No thanks.

[depakid]

68. You don't think cops access cameras all across the US?

You might want to watch one of those forensic crime shows sometime.

Not to miss the point, though-

A substantial majority Americans in fact let the terrarists destroy much of their free society and did so quite willingly without much of any fight from the supposed opposition party.

That, in most any objective definition, is COWARDICE.

[Xenocrates]

69. No single drop of rain thinks its responsible for the flood?

It's going to take more than a sacrifice of an SUV, McMansions or Guns.

More like getting each other to agree on what is a common good.

[Iggo]

85. I don't own an SUV...

...a McMansion, or a gun.

[marions ghost]

90. with regard to houses on steroids and cars on steroids

in defense of many Americans these things were pushed in an era of cheap gas and oil & a prosperous economy. Yes people should have seen it coming, but without responsible leadership, I can't blame the average person.

People with smaller houses and cars are now vindicated, especially if they resisted temptation to supersize.

"Patriotic"--what does that really mean in a competitive "I got mine" society? Surely not 'sacrifice for the good of the whole.' Americans do not understand the concept. We will be forced to sacrifice as the rich get richer.

[Butch350]

91. Hey

I'm on-board with you. I totally agree!

[GoldieAZ49]

93. I wish Americans were patriotic enough not to tell their fellow Americans how to live.

and let people exercise their freedoms as they see fit, for the greater common good.


For each thing you don't like about someone's choice, there is someone out there that doesn't like your choices.

[marions ghost]

96. It's a society...

it's OK to talk about what might make it work better and to criticize poor choices.

[crankychatter]

97. break a nail or somethin?

[GoldieAZ49]

104. nope, my nails are fine. I don't take ppl that want to mind everyones business

but their own to seriously.

Thanks for your concern :hi:

[shayes51]

94. Amen

[DeschutesRiver]

99. To me it is a non issue

anyone on this board is more likely to kill or maim me with their car than I am to shoot them with my guns. If we ever get to the point of outlawing motor vehicles, we will save more lives than we ever could by outlawing guns.

I won't make gun control an issue in my life because we already have the rules on the books, and need to enforce them. If they were outlawed, nothing would change. Nada. Outlaw guns, and refuse to enforce that law, and you get the same results. The dumb asses with guns committing crimes would still get caught; the hard core criminals/organizations would still obtain them just like they do now and the smart ones would still use them, and people like me with a concealed carry for over 25 years who hasn't yet caused a crime wave, and am as skilled with a gun as I am with my vehicles would still not be responsible for a single death. No one is being killed in meaningful numbers due to the lack of "skill" with their use of a weapon anyway- I mean, it isn't rocket science, nor is it the only thing any of us do that has the potential to harm another. The root cause of crime is what everyone avoids tackling by pretending that the elimination of guns will end gun crimes. It won't; nor will it resolve the issue of why people kill each other on a regular basis. That is the harder issue that needs brainstorming.

That is why it is a red herring and a complete waste of my time to focus on the gun issue, when there are real problems that need solving - poverty, our school systems, our freaking lack of personal responsibility, our economy, health care, and so on. In a perfect world, I'd like to see organized religion banished. Long before guns, cars, knives or any sport requiring use of a helmet and a liability waiver.

[L0oniX]

101. As long as home invasion murders continue here, I will keep a loaded 9m pistol in my childless home.

Maybe some day the cops will catch these murderers in my county.