Pay Mark Penn's bill? Compare it to what Axelrod's firm, AKP Media & Messaging has charged Obama.

[flpoljunkie]

The Hillary Clinton campaign has already paid Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates $13,962,190 in 2008, yet she owes him another $4,612,431.61, according to the latest FEC report.

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M6/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

Compare this to what the Obama campaign has paid David Alexrod's firm for the same period. Axelrod is Obama's chief media and political advisor. Axelrod's firm, AKP Media & Messaging, also includes the services of David Plough, the campaign manager. AKP received a total of $849,320.37 in 2008, and there is no outstanding debt, unlike Penn's outstanding $4,612,431.61 bill to the Clinton campaign at the end of May, 2008--according to the FEC link below:

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M6/C00431445/D_DEBTS_C00431445.html

Time for the Clinton campaign to take Penn Schoen & Berland to court for campaign malpractice and get this bloated bill drastically reduced or eliminated.

[goldcanyonaz]

1. Why do you feel this is helpful, especially on the day of the Unity meetup

[flpoljunkie]

4. Penn's outrageous bloated salary cannot be accepted nor paid. It must be reduced or eliminated.

Hillary Clinton was very poorly served by this man and his firm, and we ought not to make the likes of him whole.

And I don't think her supporters feel any differently about Mark Penn and his services.

[uponit7771]

7. SOOOO true, I think it would've been a lot closer if she was served better by Penn et al

[MonkeyFunk]

40. you know that amount isn't Penn's salary, right?

[flpoljunkie]

42. But that is what his firm billed Hillary Clinton. We need an accounting of these charges.

[MonkeyFunk]

47. Yes

his firm that did all the polling for her campaign, as well as other services. It's not Mark Penn's personal salary.

And why do "we" need an accounting of those charges?

[PBS Poll-435]

58. IIRC his firm also did the purchasing of the media buys.

TV time ain't cheap.

[Blarch]

61. Ummm...

because Hillary wants it paid off by Obama supporters, we should at least know what we are paying off.

Typical post by MF

[MonkeyFunk]

66. You're not going to contribute

so why are you owed anything?

[Blarch]

67. already did.

The sooner Hillary is paid off, the sooner we won't have to be strong armed by her.

Granted it was only 20 dollars ...anyway...you lose again.

[snooper2]

28. Are you a Penn supporter now..

:rofl:


GOBAMA!

[dsc]

2. evidently Penn also paid venders for her

so much of the money owed to Penn is really owed to vendors. Of course, you and the author of the piece chose to tell a different, less accurate story. One wonders why.

[uponit7771]

5. How much though? Even if it's half of what she paid that's still almost 10 times what Obama spent

[flpoljunkie]

6. List the vendors, if you can.

[Inuca]

8. The chief strategist paid the vendors?!?!?

I very much doubt it.

[dsc]

10. It has been posted here, repeatedly

I will try to find it.

[dsc]

13. Post 9 of this thread and note the icon of the poster

I will try to find a better one but this is a start.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6416621#6417199

[Inuca]

16. I have no idea

about the inner workings of a campaign, but it seems to me that the campaign manager or somebody in that line of command should be in charge of vendors, not somebody in charge of strategy.

[dsc]

18. My best guess is that he was in charge of fundraising events and advertising

and she billed that stuff through his firm using his accountants instead of hiring hers. I have no clue how common that would be.

[nbsmom]

25. It is SOP

It's my understanding that it's not unlike how advertising agencies and general contractors work:

The agency/contractor vets/chooses the vendors.
The agency/contractor in return for fronting the money, takes a percentage of the money being paid to the vendors. (Does this influence the selection of the vendors? Of course.)
The agency/contractor remains on the hook for the amounts owed the vendors until all costs/overruns are paid.

(It always amazes me when people complain about how much their contractor charges them as opposed to original estimates, because there is typically no incentive to keep costs down if you're getting a percentage of the total amount billed. I guess most people don't realize this.)

[MarjorieG]

36. And Penn still had other clients. This was a part-time gig.

[JVS]

15. link?

[dsc]

19. look at post 13

which was posted before your post, it should be noted.

[JVS]

20. I was about to edit after posting, but then I decided not to because I noticed the link was just...

to some DUer who also had no link. So I figured I'd leave this here and check on it when you have a good link. Now I'll go see what you've posted over in that subthread.

[dsc]

22. Here is one from media matters

http://mediamatters.org/items/200804070008

MYERS: Well, you know, I think that's been overblown. Because a lot of the money went through his polling firm but was then doled out to vendors for various ad buys and things like that. I think that they capped how much they were going to make it. I think it's $250,000. You'll have to check me on that. So he's -- so those figures that say he made $10 million are incorrect. Nonetheless, he's made plenty of money. It's not about money. It's about winning the presidency. And I think Senator Clinton has to take the responsibility now. She's left with the aftermath. Look, there's still a question about, what does it mean he's been sort of demoted? Does that mean --

[JVS]

23. thanks

[flpoljunkie]

26. Pretty vague.

[dsc]

27. actually it is pretty clear

capped at 250k paid rest to vendors. That seems pretty clear. I am presuming that he got more in the last months but that still gives a nice ball park figure.

[flpoljunkie]

30. Capped at $250k for what and for what period of time?

[dsc]

31. Given the date of the statement

I am presuming Apr 30. Assuming it doubles to 500k, which sounds unlikely, that puts him in league with Axelrod.

[lojasmo]

39. Evidently....

Is that what passes for evidence in lala land?

[uponit7771]

3. Almost 19 million dollars for REALLY bad advice and non existant leadership. I feel for Hillary...

...thinking about it, she thought she surrounded herself with some good people but sleazy ass'd Penn wasn't it.

[Cha]

37. mark penn, who infamously, said

"being human is overrated" when it was suggested they show Hillary's softer side.

The whiner, who defending, his "campaign strategist" resume said "I wanted to go negative sooner".

[peaches2003]

9. Obama should ignore her $ problems

Why is anyone involved with Hillary's debts except Hillary. She spent $$$ foolishly; her problem. It's ludicrous that Obama is lehimself anywhere near this. If Hillary can't repay herself the millions she lent her campaign, TS for her. She's not a good steward of her own money, much less ours. Obama better stand on his own without sucking up to the Clintons and pretty damn soon or he will be seen as weak and pandering.

[harun]

11. He will. He can't say it in the press but her problems are not his problems.

[Pirate Smile]

12. The Clinton supporters are the ones probably most upset with Penn. The Obama supporters

should just ssshhhhhhhh about it.

[Alcibiades]

14. Penn did do a very bad job

Gave the Clintons bad advice at every turn. I cannot think of any reason why Penn would pay vendors rather than having the campaign do so directly--this is less transparent.

That being said, given that Clinton desires to have Democratic donors pay the bill rather than repay the money she supposedly lent herself, why not have the Obama campaign pay it, and she can turn around and ask her donors if it is OK to use the general election money she's raised for the nominees campaign. Some may balk, and that's their right, btu these are Democratic donors, they've presumably already given the money, and so many would be willing to redirect it to the nominee.

Just a suggestion, though all the discussions between the Obama fundraising folks and the Clinton folks suggest to me that this is something like what they are working on anyway.

[Diamonique]

51. Hillary can't repay herself.

No individual -- not even the candidate him/herself -- can donate more than $2,300 to a campaign. So Hillary and Bill together can only give her campaign $4,600. That certainly won't cover the campaign's debt to the Clintons. Plus I read somewhere that it's not her loans that she's trying to recoup. She's trying to pay the bills she owes to others.

Thankfully the law also doesn't allow out contributions to Obama to be transferred to Clinton. So we don't have to worry about that.

I donated to Hillary the day she gave her concession speech. I'll donate again next month. But most of my contribution money is going to Obama, the DNC, and downticket Dem candidates.

[AngryOldDem]

17. Can someone tell me if this is true?

Andrea Mitchell the other day said that it is "tradition" that the nominee helps the losing candidate with campaign debt.

I, for one, never heard that one before.

And I, for one, don't want my Obama contributions (as modest they are) going to pay off Mark Penn, either.

[flpoljunkie]

21. It is, but thanks to Mark Penn, Clinton's primary debt is unprecedented.

[JVS]

24. It's also tradition that campaigns don't spend extensive amounts of time running on credit.

Traditionally, when you're out of money, it's time to start wrapping things up, and you might have some debt in there. You don't launch a whole new offensive on the rationale that if you lose the sucker you're attacking will pick up the tab. Well, you don't if you have a shred of class anyway.

[dbmk]

34. Don't worry

They can't move your money. All Obama can do is work with and encourage his supporters to fill the gap.
And afaik he has alaready asked the ones that has maxed out their contribution to him, to help Hillary if possible. And specifically not asked people that has donated smaller amounts.

[Willo]

29. If Penn paid the vendors then I'm sure his invoice includes a

hefty administrative fee - anywhere between 7%-10% over the vendor invoice.

[flpoljunkie]

38. Whether Penn's bill is itemized is a question in itself. List of all other vendor debt link below.

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M6/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

[JerseygirlCT]

32. Yeah, I definitely think there needs to be some

re-negotiation of that tab if Obama is going to help pay it.

Sorry Penn, you lose; you lose!

[NotThisTime]

33. May I just say, money aside, Axelrod is a genius.... One of the great moves by Obama...

One great move of many....

[flpoljunkie]

43. I concur with your assessment. He's a very decent guy, as well.

[yeswecanseattle]

35. Mark Penn only care about him self. DR wants Obama to win. nt

[genna]

41. Economically challenged, fee bloated

:kick:

[hokies4ever]

44. I had heard on MSNBC that most of the debt to Mark Penn is to vendors

I think he paid some vendors up front and Hillary didn't reimburse him for those payments.

[flpoljunkie]

45. "Vendors?" Need more specifics than that.

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M6/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

[hokies4ever]

49. I think when 'vendor is used by the media pundits

They mean people not officially associated with the campaign. So under that definition debt to Penn's organization for compensation for their WORK wouldn't fall under this category.

[flpoljunkie]

46. HUFFPO compared Penn's and Axelrod's firms' expenses in Feb.'08.

It is not uncommon for candidates to spend their cash on the firms and companies associated with their advisers. And the elongated primary, combined with the historic fundraising totals, have pushed campaign expenditures increasingly higher. Still, the totals taken in by Penn and, to a lesser extent, Axelrod represent significant hauls for a year-plus work.

Broken down by purpose the Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates's receipts read like this:

• $1.7+ million for consulting, roughly $530,000 of which have come in the last quarter;
• $2.6+ million for mail expenses;
• $15,000 for travel;
• $7,000 for printing;
• $4,500 on photography.

As for AKP, the rough tallies breakdown as such:

• $17,000 for mail services;
• $530,000 for media consulting;
• $140,000 for activities deemed "miscellaneous media;"
• $335,000 for broadcast media.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/mark-penns-firm-paid-4_n_85192.html

[hokies4ever]

48. The mail expenses breakdown is appalling

Perhaps Penn had all of the Hillary flyers FedEx'ed overnight? :rofl:

[AZ Criminal JD]

50. Why is it appalling? You need to do some math

There were about 40 million votes in the primary. Mail would have been sent to at least three times that number (probably a lot more). So that means the mail expenses represents about 2 cents a voter.

[hokies4ever]

52. Appalling that there is such a huge differential between Penn and Axelrod

Duh. :eyes:

Perhaps the lesson for Hillary to learn is to not put all of your eggs in one basket, especially if the basket wants to coat its straws in gold. :rofl:

[AZ Criminal JD]

53. So you seriously think Obama only had $18,000 in mail expenses?

Duh. Obviously the mail expenses are part of someone else's bill. Don't be ridiculous.

[hokies4ever]

55. Grassroots support vs. big money Penn services

'Nuff said. :rofl:

[AZ Criminal JD]

59. You really do believe the bill was $18,000.

One day you will be allowed out or thrown out of your mother's basement. I hope the shock of the real world is not too much for you.

[hokies4ever]

65. Well, it definitely wasn't $22 million of debt

Maybe someday someone will show you the real world where you pay as you go and not just mass up as much debt as possible. Maybe that's how you live your life, but not me. Any of the campaigns you worked for that much in the red? I'm guessing they didn't win... :rofl:

[LittleBlue]

54. You ever work in a professional services firm?

Those guys stuffing envelopes are probably billing $200 or more per hour. I laugh at anyone trying to justify that amount when compared to Obama's highly efficient, non-NY-DC advisers.

[hokies4ever]

57. Thanks LittleBlue!

Grassroots support beat big money Penn in the primaries, hands down. :patriot:

[AZ Criminal JD]

60. You think two cents a voter for mailing is high? LOL

Unlike the posters on this board I have worked in many campaigns and have been a candidate three times. I know what things cost, believe me. I am still filing out FEC forms and it has been almost four years since the last time.

[hokies4ever]

62. Well, I do believe $22 million in debt is high

when you don't win the nomination. Your glibness shows why not enough people voted for you. :rofl:

Just playing with you. :patriot:

[AZ Criminal JD]

63. Actually I won one out of the three.

Where I live that percentage is not that bad.

[hokies4ever]

64. If only you were a baseball player

A .333 batting average would put you in the All-Star game. :rofl:

[rucky]

56. Piss away money. Ask for a bailout.

Where have I heard that M.O. before?