Sorry folks. We really do have to move to the center in order to win.

[Jackpine Radical]

What people fail to understand, though, is that the corporate media and the professional pols of both parties have all collaborated to make us think that the center far to the right of where it actually is.

The the center is where the Average American is, and that is far to the LEFT of where the talking heads imagine it to be.

Average Americans want universal health care. They want their rights restored, and they do not want to live in a police state. They want to be loved and respected by other peoples as they once were. They want an end to the insane Iraq war. They want the planet to be protected so their great-great-grandchildren can have clean water, clean air, and natural beauty. They want to have jobs, and to be protected from the rapacious behavior of the corporations. They want to go to bed at night knowing that nobody has been tortured or kidnapped in their name.

Average Americans are hoping against hope that the Democrats will deliver on these things.

If the Democrats don't deliver, they're ultimately going to prove that Ralph Nader was right about that dime's worth of difference.

[defendandprotect]

1. DLC Kool Aid . . .

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Are you sure you understood my post?

[defendandprotect]

34. Despite the moving of the "center" . . . the public is liberal ---

and the Democrats should support the ideals of democracy --- liberal and progressive ideals.

A pretense to any "center" --- or worse yet, the DLC concept of center is simply kool aid to

confuse voters.

As many have said before . . . the center doesn't really exist except in myth.

You can't go but one or the other direction on a moving train --

No train occupies the "center" ---

It's Howard Zinn's "You can't be neutral on a moving train" ---

I think that was his title/?

However -- others . . . "only roadkill in the middle of the road" ---

Our Constitution's compromise with slavery leading to Civil War ---

it's pronouncement of "equality for all" while oppressing/degrading women, Africans

America, natives. Schizophrenic center?



PS: Just want to add that probably you're arguing simply that everything has been moved to the right. DLC would be responsible for that in the Dem Party, as well. That's their agenda.

However, my angst is anyone being tuned into "MSM' -- i.e., corporate-press ---
or any voter who still watches TV "news" and takes their word for anything.

[Cirque du So-What]

3. I get your point

It's that the conservatroids have succeeded in moving the goalposts so far to the right that the 'center' is far to the right of where it once was, and far to the right of most Americans. I'd like to add that traditional progressive ideals now fall into the realm of 'far-left' after the 'pugs succeeded in redefining values that matter to most Americans.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. I'm truly grateful that you get it.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. Some days the people on this board display all the subtlety of comprehension that you would expect on a nameless wingnut site.

[midnight]

4. Let's not let our party become a dimes worth of difference

to the Republican party.

[Cleita]

6. Well their center worked so well for Gore and Kerry.

Also, if the Democrats don't run on issues that the average Americans want, 2% will vote for Ralph Nader again. Although we all know now that the 2000 election was hijacked by the Supreme Court, that 2% could have made a difference wherein it would have made it harder for the Supreme Court to step in. It would have provided the electoral votes needed to give Al Gore an uncontested win.

[defendandprotect]

36. Agree that Gore was taken off his populist message by DLC . . .

and that cut into his votes --

When Kerry listened to Theresa, he was also doing better ---

Yes . . . the 2000 election was stolen in probably 1,000 different ways by GOP, from

fascist rallies outside the Miami-Dade Election HQ's to the Supremes stealing it in the end.


Yes, DU'ers should understand that 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida voted for Bush --

and that Buchanan took 3,000 "butterfly ballot votes" ---

and other third parties took more than 6,000 votes --- Libertarian/Socialist, etc.

PLUS, the Republicans also counted 600 "illegal" military ballots ---

The Bush "win" in Florida was 527 votes ---


And, AGAIN, for those who don't know . . . GORE WON FLORIDA . . .

per the recount by the press and they back it up by saying he won no matter how you count it.

****************************************************************

The recount was concluded not too long before 9/11 ---

[jgraz]

7. JPR, I'll bet most people will not get the point of this post

Too subtle for us knee-jerkers. :hi:

[tishaLA]

9. true. i started to reply and then i realized i was arguing with myself

instead of what the post really said.

[johnaries]

8. Correct - the TRUE Center

Which is well to the Left of where the MSM and RW pundits try to convince us it is. Listen to the People, not the Pundits.

[HereSince1628]

10. So do we want to move the message or move the center?

I think the whole point of a progressive movement is about moving the center.

[kentuck]

11. The basic truth is it doesn't matter where the candidate runs from..

Any change will have to come from the bottom up. That's us, folks!

[jwirr]

12. Especially if we want to lock in the House and Senate which we need.

[thoughtcrime1984]

13. I agree with you, Jackpine

I believe Obama will run this country to the left of the message that is being sent right now. He is doing what he needs to do to win, but will, for the most part, remain true to his message from the primaries. There WILL be more than a dimes difference between Obama and a standard Republican.

[mix]

14. but...

...how is Obama's support for FISA and confrontation with Iran, for example, how are these recalibrations "a move to the center"? aren't they in fact a move to the far right?

[Jackpine Radical]

21. I would say that.

My most optimistic reading is that he's not fighting what he sees to be lost causes during a Presidential campaign.

[Mme. Defarge]

15. Je comprends! n/t

[Papa Boule]

16. Well I think that is a complete myth

perpetrated by sneaky "advisers" who have a personal stake in keeping the failed policies in place.

I think politicians who listen to such advisers are being duped.

And Glenn Greenwald covered everything else that needed to be said about this today.

[Jackpine Radical]

22. I think you need to go back & actually read my post, and some of the

other comments in this thread. I have no quarrel with Greenwald.

[Papa Boule]

25. Your headline completely misled me, Sorry.

I know the feeling. I misled others with the headline of http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3536012&mesg_id=3536012">my OP.

It's a real art, headline writing. I intend to take more time with it. I intend to take into account that there are many others, like me, who don't have time to read the whole post to get the explanation or or clarification of a headline.

I jumped to conclusions because there are many on this board who totally agree with your headline just as you wrote it.

But on the text of your OP, yes, the center is definitely left of where special interest advisers are telling the Democrats it is. Yes, the country has moved left. Clearly the country wants Democrats back in power. If they still wanted Republicans, they'd be electing them. They want real Democrats.

And they're not getting them.

[elocs]

17. There is more than one center.

On the political spectrum we have from the left, the center of the Democratic Party and to the right of that are conservative Democrats (we only recognize them when we need their votes). Moving right from there we have the center between the two parties. Then there are liberal Republicans ("liberal" within the Republican Party) and to the right of them is the center of the Republican Party. Finally, on the very extreme right of the Republican party are the conservative, conservatives. Neocons probably fit on the far right, but I don't believe they are actually Republicans since they do not believe in some traditional Republican values such as keeping government small and being fiscally responsible in not running big deficits.

There are Independents who probably are more within the center of the political spectrum who tend to swing to either the Democrats or the Republicans, or sometimes both depending upon the issues or the person running.

I also think there is a center where most American lay which is not static, but it is neither to the far liberal left or the far conservative right. I think this center may be to the left of the center between the two parties at this time. I believe that Obama is moving toward this center as well as the center of his own party, both of which are far to the left of the right rightwingers. As Liberals we tend to divide people into either being Liberal or not and if you are not, that means you are right, which to us means you are wrong. We fail to recognize that the American people do have a center and that they do not march in the same believing lockstep on each and every issue.

If Obama wants to win, and I seriously believe he does, he helps himself more by paying attention to the majority of Americans in the center instead of tying himself to the left of his own party. The last thing he needs is to allow the Republicans to define him as a Liberal and having to spend an undue amount of time dealing with that. Much to our disappointment, there are many Americans who might be looking to vote for Obama who do not look upon being a Liberal as a good thing.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. Yes, we know the majority are dying for war with Iran, too, want the 4th amendment abolished, hope

corporations are allowed to break the law at will, and want jobs shipped over seas.

If Obama can just articulate those goals, he is sure to win.


(is a sarcasm thingy really needed/)

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Judging from my experience on this thread,

maybe that sarcasm thingie is a good precaution.

[elocs]

26. Do you intend to vote for Obama? Do you encourage others to vote for him?

Or is it going to really suck for you if he wins? Yes, president McCain will be ever so much better. I didn't know that Congress had the power to abolish any of the Constitutional amendment? But I am sure that a president McCain will go to great lengths to appoint Supreme Court justices who will be Constitutional guardians.

Too many Liberals are like Bush in a way--it is either their way or the highway. Only they hold the high ground and they feel entitled to indignantly preach and lecture to all who do not agree with them how their way is the only right way. How noble of them (and sarcasm doesn't make them any more clever).

The truth is that most Americans are not to the far left, they are not Liberals, and it in no way helps Obama to get elected by moving to the left. I cast my first presidential vote for McGovern and later for Dukakis and I'd rather not have that happen again.

[John Q. Citizen]

32. Since you know what all American are like and what they believe, I bet youi are either a

politician or a sociologist.

Tell me what issues do Americans support? Left wing socialist ideas like raising the minimum wage? Single payer government run retirement insurance like Social Security? Socialism like national and State parks? Publicly financed schools? Or do you imagine they hate that liberal socialist stuff?

Are they in favor of attacking Iran? Or are they in favor of talking tough on Iran but not attacking? Or do they favor peace?

Do Americans support sending more jobs over seas, ie strong on NAFTA? Or are they opposed to sending more jobs over seas?

I want to know so i can get elected next year. Thanks for the help.

I went to my Unite for Change meeting yesterday. Do you know what that is? We had 30 -32 people show up. Over three quarters of them signed the petition I brought asking Obama to reconsider his stance on FISA. Only two people turned me down. They like Obama but they don't like his stance on FISA. Kind of like the people of WI., apparently, if their support of Fiengold is any indication.

Are you pro FISA or are you with your avatar?

How in the hell can you know so much? Do you get out and talk to people a pot? Do any door to door canvassing for Obama?

[defendandprotect]

37. Many don't know that the 1960 Democratic Platform JFK ran on ....

called for Nationalizing the oil industry --- !!!

Those in control of our natural resources would like citizens to think that's a

subversive idea!!!

And those decisions were left in the hands of our elite --- FDR refrained from

nationalizing the oil industry on the advice of . . . . LBJ . . . friend to

Murchison and Mafia.

Supposedly FDR conferred with LBJ on that issue ---

but who should decide it --- the people or a ruler?

[iconicgnom]

18. And of course a sharp turn to the right is promoted as being a move to the "center".

Funny how that always goes. Even when it takes a mindbending stretch to imagine that the Democratic Party is somehow representative of "the left" - and the "right" is so extreme it falls right outside the US constitution.

In fact I'd say that the US doesn't have a "leftist party" in the sense found in Europe, Canada, and other parts of the world. It has two corporate right-wing parties, and because neither is moderated by having to appeal to an organized leftist political voice, neither is moderated by a "left".

A perhaps broken comparison (because the two countries have different systems of representative democracy) might be to a Canada which lacked an NDP (union affiliated, somewhat progressive oriented tho' quite hampered by too tight an organizational tie to big unions - but I digress). Which had only "Liberal" and "Conservative" parties exchanging their admins every so often. Such a Canada would NOT have universal health care, tho' universal health care was brought in by the Liberals. And everything that might be called "progressive" in Canada owes to the Liberals. But only because, when the Liberal party is weak, it depends on support from the NDP, and support from the NDP comes at the price of giving progressive ideas an actual hearing and, when progressive policies come to a vote, actual votes. So they actually pass. Without that pressure I doubt very much whether the "centrist" Liberals would have the courage to stand up to Conservative pressure (meaning: US backed Conservative pressure). Moreover, the only thing stopping the Conservatives from rolling back universal health care etc. when they do get a majority gov't is the certain knowledge that should they do so they'd be totally destroyed by a united Liberal-NDP onslaught.

Look at other countries which not only have progressive policies in place but have *sustained* those policies/programs thru' successive admin's including very right-wing ones -- they all have a distinct organized progressive political voice, political party. Something that the US doesn't have.

[Uncle Joe]

20. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Jackpine Radical.:thumbsup:

[Psyop Samurai]

24. Bless you for trying.... k&r

It's not just wing nuts that have drunk the kool-aid.

[paulk]

27. that's true, to a certain extent

but Obama campaigned on the idea that he was going to be different. No more pandering to the right. No more "triangulation" "Change" we could believe in.

That accounts for a lot of the current criticism.

[MasonJar]

28. Those items you list are not center. Center is far more oriented to corporations.

And, after Bush, the majority know it. If they drive a car or own a house or like to eat, how could they not?

[Jazzgirl]

29. All I can say is

edited to remove comment.

[mvd]

30. Yes, I do believe we should stand up for certain ideals

The Repukes have actually convinced many people that they DON't want what they want. We should be working to reverse that and not cave in too often. I do not expect 100% agreement. For example, I am:

- Am for single-payer health care (VERY important IMO)
- For a 50% top tax rate that increases to 70-75% when income reaches multi-millions
- Completely pro-choice, though I believe abortion should be a last resort. It is not something that should be restricted, though, unless the baby is about to be born
- Completely against the death penalty
- Support gay marriage
- Support gun restrictions in locations that want them; even hand gun bans
- For more money for roads, anti-poverty programs, and education
- I'm a Christian, but think church and state should be separate
- Think war should only be waged in complete self-defense
- Very pro-civil liberties and pro-protection from corporations

I don't expect Obama to support all of these, but we'd be better off fighting for the poor, better health care, and civil liberties than compromise or cave in.

[butterfly77]

31. Exactly...

K&R...

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. Kick and recommended!!

[ulysses]

35. you must hate the good. why do you hate the good?

;-) K&R.

[Eyes_wide_ open]

38. Bravo

for the single most intelligent post I've seen on the matter thus far :applause: