It's a shame that a Obama can't express his personal religious beliefs ...

[Blue_Roses]

without the backlash of "is he too Christian" or "Obama is pandering to the right." It's not just here on DU, but the MSM is doing it too. Even my fundie BIL made a snide remark about it (which caused an immediate rise in my blood pressure).

I guess we can lay the bulk of that damage at the feet of the fundies. With their "religious abuse" they have managed to not only turn the topic to their advantage, they've used Bush as their pawn to further their agenda.

Unfortunately, because of this, many others who truly believe in the principles of the Christian, Judea, and Muslim teachings, are fighting two fronts: the fundies and the left. Either you're not ENOUGH of a Christian/believer, or you're TOO MUCH of a Christian/believer. It's ridiculous.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. I personally don't want someone shoving their pious, sanctimonious fundie crap down my throat. I don't want to hear how I will go to hell for supporting Democratic principles and I sure don't want to be told there is only one way to believe.

However, with that said, I do want to express my belief in the way that I feel it inspires me and I want to know that I won't be raked over the coals for doing so.

It's one thing to try and cram it down someone's throat and it's another thing to express how it's been an important part of your life through a dialog with others who believe. I think this is what Obama does when he speaks about his faith. I can see a sincerity in him and his voice when he talks about this. I don't think he will be a president who will use it to further an "agenda" nor do I think he will forget there is separation of church and state.

[Indenturedebtor]

1. Well I don't hold it against him though I don't dig the faith based initiatives theocratic crap

When in Rome it's best to speak Italian after all right?

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

2. His religion

is none of my business and has no influence on any judgment I might render of the dude.

[JuniperLea]

3. Anything any candidate puts out there...

Is fair game in politics. You can't please all the people all the time.

I don't care if he worships blue oysters... as long as he doesn't impose his beliefs on me, or cause any changes to my life due to said beliefs, or uses my tax dollars to support programs based on said beliefs.

I still have a few rights left, this week anyway.

[Blue_Roses]

4. yes, true.

[elocs]

5. Bring up religion and you will see a lot of hostility and venom here at DU.

It's like the proverbial waving of a red flag at a bull. Some posters go bananas. It's a political campaign with no separation of church and state involved and freedom of speech dictates that people do get to talk about their religion and faith if they chose.

[Blue_Roses]

6. yep...

I've been here a long time and I've seen my share of these posts. Some are radically nuts and some give food for thought.

[Mudoria]

8. Can you imagine what the avalanche of posts here

would be like if the situation was reversed and it was McCain who was talking about his religious beliefs and Obama was silent about his?

[defendandprotect]

18. I have no desire either to know what McCain's religious views may be . . .

However, we do know the damage that evidently can be attributed to George W's "god."

Quite a violent fellow that guy is . . .

I presume we all remember that George told us that "god told me to attack Afghanistan" ...

and that after that he spoke with "god" again and "god told me to attack Iraq" ---

It's especially this violent, warrior "god" that it would be nice to get rid of.


As for McCain . . he seems to be haunted by his criminal behavior in Vietnam and his role

in bombing innocent women and children, families there --- with Napalm, Phosphorus --

and he had an experience on his own carrier where he came to understand and see the damage

these bombs did. And, yet his "god" permitted him to return to bomb more innocents.


I say let's junk these "god" and get some new ones ---

[Whisp]

22. there's the religious belief that Obama has...

which i don't find offensive at all - it's basically what that Jesus guy preached - do unto others, take care of the poor, etc..all that hippy stuff the right just hates.

that can't be compared to the kind of religion Bush takes claim to - saying God speaks to him about invading countries, and doing the exact opposite of what that Jesus guy talked about like taking care of the least among us. I don't know how much McCain is nutzed up about this, but more than likely he will b following the church of bush's ideas

[defendandprotect]

16. I think most of us here welcome the chance to discuss religion . . .

however, those who bring their religion into the public arena have to understand that

when they do that, they may hear criticism ---


Let's be clear that religion is being used now -- today --- and has been used in the past ---

especially over the last 20 years --- to try to influence voters that the candidate has

some connection to "god."

And, heaven help us --- how many believed that of George W. Bush . . . because he said so!!!

It is for those reasons of deception --- especially upon the minds of those who too readily

accept proclamations of a candidate being on the right side of "god" -- that we need to speak

out more often against the use of religion in this way.


The campaign trail goes thru the public arena --- so this is going to be a two-way street ---

anyone can talk about their religion --- and any of us can respond.

[madfloridian]

7. When his religious beliefs touch on women's rights...

he is getting into an area where we need to speak up.

I am one of those people you are talking about I guess. I believe his faith is his own, that if it touches on rights of others....then he is opening himself up to be questioned.

I was raised and was part of the fundamentalist Southern Baptist culture.

I left when they supported the Iraq invasion and called us unpatriotic because we opposed it.

There are times when religious views should end and non-religious thinking take over.

[ellacott]

17. Bill Clinton said that he was personally against abortion but supported Choice

There was no big uproar about this. There was no big uproar over Clinton's budgeting of money to religious organizations. I think some of you are holding Obama to a different standard.

[madfloridian]

20. I have always spoken out against government giving money to religious groups.

I am amazed now at how easily all this is going down here at DU.

Suddenly everyone loves a government that will fund church groups...and suddenly everyone is anti-choice.

It is just going down so easily.

[Blue_Roses]

23. no, hold on...

what I think is happening here is that we are "awakening" to the fact that some of the ideas that were in place before Bush actually did some good.

But since we've been hostage to him and his rwing for seven plus years, hostility continues for these things.

[ellacott]

26. What amazes me is that everything is either black or white on here

Discussion is impossible because everyone is so entrenched in their views. That is what amazes me about DU.

It's not about loving a govt. that funds churches and certainly about anti-choice. I hate that you all have blurred the debate on choice with the issue of late term abortions. This has always been a separate debate. I wonder if this is not done on purpose.

There is a way to be critical and not condemning. The amazing thing is how some have overeacted and have fed right into the hands of the MSM and the Right. I thought we were smarter than that.

[madfloridian]

27. So you want us to remain silent as Christians take away our rights

of choice? To remain silent as doctors are turned into criminals if they were to do an abortion to save a woman's life instead of the fetus?

You would be more comfortable if we remained silent?

[ellacott]

29. You just proved my point

Black or white.

Sometimes I think we don't deserve to win.

[madfloridian]

31. No, we are either a theocracy or we are not.

And we need to make a decision and not waver.

I may be Christian, but I don't think it should enter into our government....and I don't care if my president is or isn't.

[ellacott]

32. This has nothing to do with theocracy

Because they give some church $100 to help in their soup kitchen doesn't mean we have become a Christian nation. If a Muslim group gets $200 for a tutoring program doesn't mean we are sympathizers of Islamofascists.

Why has there been any uproar against Catholic Charities, B'nai Brith or Salvation Army?

It's the selective outrage that has me puzzled.

[Blue_Roses]

34. what about the doctors that have been shot and killed for doing abortions?

who was speaking up for them then? I worked with a doctor who performed abortions and he constantly had to deal with death threats. He was a practicing OB/GYN and when some of his patients found out he performed abortions, he lost many of them.

So much you don't know about what has transpired in the last two decades. Where were you then? I know where the fuck I was. Escourting woman in an abortion clinic while shitheads spit and threw shit at me.

I'm so sick of the goddamn condescending shit around here when someone tries to invoke a simple discussion. We're suppose to all be on the same side.
:mad:

You were one I held in utmost respect.

[defendandprotect]

19. I agree . .. Obama getting his fingers into the abortion issue is another time bomb ---

[Blue_Roses]

24. I was born and raised southern baptist too...

have two right wing fundie BIL's who drive me nuts because I'm a Democrat. I also worked as a counselor at a pregnancy termination clinic, so you can imagine the shit I got for that.

If there is one aspect of Roe v. Wade that continuously is distorted is the late term abortion. The right has renamed it "partial-birth abortion," which is ludicrous. There are many aspects that go into the decision of these types of procedures--from the patient to the doctor willing to perform them.
This is a subject I would love to talk one on one with you, because I sense we are on the same page, but I think there is some misconception about it.

I am no longer involved in the southern baptist church, but I do enjoy a very progressive Methodist church where I live. They are VERY MUCH against the Iraq war...among other things.

[madfloridian]

28. The page I am on is that any abortion is a medical decision

and the government should stay out of it completely.

[Blue_Roses]

35. interesting...

the question isn't whether or not the government should "be involved" in the decision, but once the decision is made, should there be assistance if there is a financial difficulty in paying. Many woman who would choose to terminate their pregnancy struggle to pay. Private pay is the only way to pay for it now.

[Runcible Spoon]

9. well some of us get touchy when we recognize that our faiths or lack thereof...

have ZERO representation in government. Oh, and the fact that being Christian is a PREREQUISITE to become President. Trying to even argue against that fact would be disingenuous.

*edited for clarity

[Bill McBlueState]

10. Of course there's a middle ground

It's the middle ground that has worked all through our history. Practice your religion however you want, but govern the country as the leader of a religiously diverse, secular democracy.

It worked for the founders, and it should work for our candidiate.

[Blue_Roses]

21. one would think...

that this logic would or should still apply...unfortunately, the rwing has changed all that:eyes:

[Marrah_G]

11. Yes- Christian politicians are so persecuted

Which is why I have heard over and over and over again about each and ever politicians personal and intimate relationship with Jesus.

Spare me the persecution line.

Obama is free to tell us all about how he as given himself over to the will of God.

On the other hand, I am free to say that hearing this crap all the time makes me cringe and that not only do I not give a shit what religion he is, but I also really don't give a shit what his God has to say about anything.

[sandnsea]

12. DU Has Been Screaming for a religious left point of view

And now that they get it, they attack it. Idiots.

[Marrah_G]

13. Hmmm on the other hand

One line in your post made me think twice:

"it's another thing to express how it's been an important part of your life through a dialog with others who believe."

You know.... that I don't have an issue with. I think when the really fundy sounding stuff is brought here to an audience that contains alot of people who don't believe that way that is when you see people cringing in their seats. it's a shame the talks he gives in church aren't kept in church.

[defendandprotect]

14. It's about time we had a backlash to the use of the flag and religion to scam voters . . .

I've had concerns about the extent of Obama's religious beliefs --

Beware of those wrapping themselves in the flag and religion ---
as the founders warned, it's the "last retreat of scalawags!"

Keep in mind that the GOP gave start up funds for the Christian Coalition.
This is because organized patriarchal religion underpins patriarchy, itself --
i.e., the Bible is written by males to cement patriarchy --
and male "superiority" is based on a "god" proclaiming it.

And average Christians believe this --- you don't have to be a Fundamentalist to support
patriachy and female inferiority.

As for Christians battling anything, IMO, they should look to their religious leaders --
church hierarchy -- and the corruption of the teachings of love and tolerance ---
and end the vengeful, brutal "god" who is too often in control.

They also need to get their church leaders to drop such teachings as "Manifest Destiny"
which is the license to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life --
and join the efforts to protect the planet from human pollution --
and respond to Global Warming with major culture change.

What we've mainly had all over the globe is "too much" religion -- taken too literally.
Stories of a "Jesus" type figure are repeated with a hundred different names
throughout human memory. They are oral teachings --- theater -- efforts to keep humans
on the right track. The stories also connect to nature, the ages of man, planets/stars.

The original OLD religion was connected to nature -- based on pleasure --
Patriarchal religion is based on a ONE MALE skygod, a vengeful god who wants to control
especially your sexuality! It's based on pain ...

The concept of HELL and Satan, of course, comes from the imaginations
and fears of the patriarchy. Old Religion had no hell, no Satan.

I think you should be free to practice your religion. However, practicing your religion
does not require a Creche' in the town square -- or religious articles appearing on public
property. Nor having Bibles in public schools, nor prayers.

And I hope that you wouldn't be the type to suggest that your son won an Olympic medal because
"god" was watching over him and made it happen!

Of course, Obama is running for president so he has more opportuninty to tell us all about his
religion -- but he has to understand that this doesn't always fall upon willing ears.
And that audiences are in a sense "captured" -- and he should respect that.

And, of course, your assurances aside, I think it is up to all of us individually to decide
how we feel about all this --- and what, if any dangers, a candidate and his religion may
represent to our democracy.

Promises to move more money to "church" isn't helping --- poor signal re Separation of
Church & State.

I don't think we need to rethink Separation of Church & State --
I think we need to live by it and expect our candidates and political parties to respect it.

[madfloridian]

15. He can express his religious views all he wants.

And we have a right to disagree.

[Solon]

25. Its not his religious views that are the problem its the fact that he has to express them...

repeatedly, that just shows how sad this country is.

[depakid]

30. It's a shame that in America, politicians have to wear their religion on their sleeves

rather than maintain dignity and keep their faith a private matter.

[PurityOfEssence]

33. He's doing it for personal gain and deserves some flak for it

It's not just "oh, by the way, I'm REALLY Christian", it's "vote for me because I'm one of you". "Help me be even more successful because I agree with you on the supernatural."

The implications are dangerous: religion is NECESSARY, and even though he "accepts" non-believers, religion is somehow superior. That's bad enough by implication, but when codified into law with public monies sustaining the big guess, not only is it unconstitutional, it's ugly and corrosive to the foundation of our society. It's not a "little thing" as so many appeasers continually claim.