Is Obama a symptom or cure

[mix]

for what ails our country?

[blindpig]

1. Symptom. n/t

[scheming daemons]

2. A little of both

[Frustratedlady]

3. He can only be a cure if everyone works with him.

If Congress will back him, if the people will dig in and help, I think he can make a ton of progress. If everyone leaves him to his own devises, Obama, nor anyone else, can straighten out the mess Bush left (hopefully) behind.

It's like going into a filthy, messy house with a cleaning crew. It's amazing what a little elbow grease can accomplish and we're gonna need a whole ton of elbow grease.

If we stand back and bitch, we deserve what we get.

[sourmilk]

4. His election would certainly be a shot in the ass for the USA...

[elocs]

5. The important point at this moment is that he is the nominee of the Democratic Party.

It is up to us to support him and see that he get elected.

[mix]

7. agreed,

but it is also up to us to push him further to the left and away from the middle where the Bush legacy festers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. The middle is where the clean up is most needed.

If Obama does not address the concerns of the middle, the middle will turn back to the right because the right (supposedly) listens to them.

This is a GE, not a primary anymore. Obama has the Democrats and the left - his job now is to expand the tent to encompass enough of the middle to gain office.

If you want to push him to the left, the way to do it is give him leftist coattails - drive to get more progressives in congress. Expanding the progressive caucus is the best way to give him the backing to push for progressive legislation, to give him the opportunity to sign off on that progressive legislation.

Let him do what he needs to to get elected.

[elocs]

14. I don't consider it my job to push him to the left or to push him anywhere.

Besides, I don't think Obama takes well to being pushed. He has said today that we will not always agree with him, but we should be able to agree to disagree. Obama is showing he is more in the middle of his own party where he really has always been and that is far, far from the middle where the Bush legacy festers.

[mix]

30. democracy is about pushing

pressure and dissent...maybe not for you

[elocs]

36. I wouldn't want anybody pushing me from where I believe I should be.

I would resent being pushed. I think democracy is about persuasion and compromise when it is needed. We've had nearly 8 years of the "my way, or the highway" crowd. It's time for those who have the ability to reason and being mature enough to understand that you do not always get to have things your way. We need less pushing and more leading.

[mix]

44. you misunderstood me

yes democracy is about persuasion and compromise, but it is also about pressuring/pushing your candidate/representatives via peaceful democratic means...you're making too much of this

Obama is not harmed nor is the party threatened with being split whenever someone disagrees in good faith. It is foolish to claim otherwise.

[mkultra]

19. The bush legacy is an extreme right wing conspiracy.

Obama should move just enough to the right to appeal to independents while remaining a liberal. This of course leaves hard lefties in the cold but the truth is that the center has been positioned to the right by conservatives because we have yet to pay enough attention to the middle as a party.

If you want to MOVE the center back left, this is how its done.

[caledesi]

9. I agree! NT

[GihrenZabi]

6. Symptom

A friend of mine and I discuss how he could actually be the beginning of the end.

You have a lot of first-timers putting a lot of faith in him...too much faith, perhaps. If he does win, gets into office, and then accomplishes pretty much nothing the way our government has accomplished pretty much nothing for the past several decades, you're going to see a lot of nihilism and apathy spread as a result.

Obama's carefully-crafted image of being an "agent of change" could turn around and bite him square in the ass in the picture precisely the way it has done so in the small picture among his base.

[jakem]

13. ridiculous.

this sounds like- "it might not work. we should not try"

what, we will get MORE apathy than we have?



this is a real opportunity to make real change. it is not Obama that will do it. it is people getting involved.

if Obama fails, it is our fault.

[SurfingAtWork]

26. Sayeth Sir Homer

"Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try."

[SidneyCarton]

17. Aaah, Ghiren, always our ray of sunshine

Yes this could indeed be a sign of the end, God/Allah/Buddha/(Insert Deity or lack thereof of choice here) forbid that anyone should hope for a better tomorrow. So much better to assume tomorrow will be worse than today, then we can't be disappointed when it is. The problem is, being already assured of future ruin, most are content to drink their hemlock today.

Apathy and nihilism can come of disappointment, yes but they also come of endless negativity. If we spend all our time focusing on how screwed we are, the short trip off the window ledge becomes far more enticing than the long walk down the stairs.

Maybe things are so screwed up that no one person, nor any number of persons of good will can fix our nation. I'll bite. But how will history remember us if we didn't even try?

[GihrenZabi]

52. Has to get worse before it gets better

Yeah, I know I'm nihilistic when it comes to politics, but how can a progressive NOT be? America is so backwards-ass it'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. To get America to change you have to hold a virtual gun to its head, whether it was the Great Depression breaking the illusion that the federal government didn't need to get involved in supporting society, or World War II breaking the dream of remaining isolated and uninvolved in the world around us...it takes something along those disastrous lines to get America to change.

I honestly believe that our political system is the source of ALL our problems right now, and that isn't going to get addressed until the system itself collapses to the point where NO ONE can deny its failure anymore.

Lack of term limits, salaries that are too high, an Executive branch which is almost vestigal, a breakdown of Separation of Powers, ignorance of the original, philosophical aims of the Constitution and Bill of Rights and utter inability to apply that philosophy with 21st-century understanding without needing massive, race-based quasi-violent (on the part of the oppressors) popular movements or drawn-out court battles to prove what ought to be self-evident (gay marriage, abortion rights).

The government we have now is entirely inadequate to deal with the problems facing us. While the world changes America stands still, and the farther behind we fall in economic power, social evolution, and even military influence, the more difficult it will be to ever reclaim our lost glory until it eventually becomes impossible.

I don't think it's impossible yet - but the utter lack of progressive representation in the federal government has us solidly on that path right now. The path of malaise and collapse.

Hoping for a better tomorrow is a short-term, day-by-day proposition. I expect more from my government. I want decade-by-decade planning and thinking. I want a plan for the next CENTURY.

Democracy doesn't seem up to the task of providing one. I don't know what system of government is, but as long as our politicians aren't leaders but mere panderers to the public seeking media attention and the illusion of "power" that we've created, I know that republican democracy isn't it.

[SidneyCarton]

55. So, as a political nihilist, what do you suggest?

Democracy doesn't work? Ok, which system would you prefer: Theocracy, Dictatorship, Monarchy, Totalitarian Regime? Do any of these ostensibly work any better? Would you prefer anarchy? Fascinating as such a system seems at first blush, the current state of affairs in Somalia makes one wonder, for true anarchy doesn't seem to be a sustainable system.

I expect more from my government as well, but I am not in charge and therefore must hope for the best, this doesn't necessarily mean I don't do what I can to prepare for the worst (I'm certainly no Pollyanna) but dwelling on it provides me with neither help nor consolation.

[uponit7771]

8. symptom, he can be a cure if we hold his feet to the fire AFTER he's elected.

[blindpig]

12. And who do you think can apply more heat to the feet?

This guy?



Or these guys?



The heat which made the New Deal possible was the growing strength of the Communists Party. Where is such an organized body of citizens to apply such pressure today? Until we organize as the people, outside of the Duopoly, Mr Moneybags wins.

[emilyg]

37. Pray tell how we can do that AFTER.?

[4themind]

10. I think he's a treatment for some symptoms of the aliement

In that he proposes to help alleviate/change many of the affects of the bush administration. But I think it may be impossible to know whether the underlying cause of the ailment (republican hegemony propped up by enough people) will permanently be gone (if that's what you mean by the ails and "cure" respectively). Even the most ardent progressive can only serve for 8 years, and I don't know (not sure anyone does) how the staying power of their policies and/or American voting patterns will hold up in the future.

[saltpoint]

15. Seen as a public servant, he represents the symbol of community and

the muscle and mind behind it at its best.

We are a better people than the last 8 years; Obama is in a position to make that point in history books from this point forward.

Quite a lot of us will vigorously endorse his effort to do so.

[Buzz Clik]

16. Is the OP symptomatic of the ills at DU, or just another weak attempt at disruption?

[mix]

40. are thinned skinned Obama supporters

really Obama supporters?

of course they are, but still annoying

[Buzz Clik]

48. Face it, pal. Your OP was posted for the simple purpose of starting a flame war in which ...

... you could say shit like, "are thinned skinned Obama supporters really Obama supporters?"

Piss off.

[mix]

51. there are

thinned skinned Obama supporters who practice a deferential personality based politics, then there are the other Obama supporters. I am in the latter group. Strange how in the end there is something we agree on.

[Buzz Clik]

53. We agree

on nothing.

[mix]

54. except our candidate

eom

[CakeGrrl]

18. You mean compared to McCain? Otherwise, what is your point? n/t

[Marrah_G]

20. This question makes no sense to me.

[blondeatlast]

21. Is McSame a symptom of the disease or the disease itself that weakens our country?

He's a carrier of neoconitis; of that I'm certain.

[TexasObserver]

22. Obama is the cow bell the country needs more of.

I hope that clears it up for you.

[NatBurner]

23. basically

it's just that simple.

[TexasObserver]

56. I got a fever!!

When I think back about how our chances looked with Mondale, Dukakis, Gore and Kerry, and I compare that to our chances with Obama, I wonder why people are so concerned. It's his job to get elected. It's our job to have enough political capital with him and the new congress to get what we want next year.

Political rhetoric always gives way to political reality. If progressives have the votes in congress, we get our way. If not, we don't. But if we have the votes in congress but we don't have the presidency, we're screwed again.

[jakem]

27. brilliant.

[mix]

38. LOL

(i guess)

[paulk]

24. symptom

politics as product

[blondeatlast]

25. What's your opinion?

If you were looking to start a fire, sorry, but:

[mix]

29. I'll vote for him.

But I am ambivalent for two reasons: 1) this is probably the direst moment in our history and wonder if he's up to the task policy-wise (who would be; and yes I would rather have him over McCain) 2) I do not like his move to the middle/right; this is a symptom of what ails the country since this tactic has not worked in the past and gives credit to failed policies at best and to dangerous ones at worst.

Obama has more than once said he wants to be held accountable by people who support him. The reaction of those who claim to defend him in the name of winning against McCain seem to believe that he's harmed by this. I don't think so.

[Orsino]

28. Symptom, at least.

I think, though, that we're seeing little hints of the cure from him, too.

Let's demand his best.

[demokatgurrl]

31. Not a cure.

A shot in the ass maybe, as someone else has said, but definitely not a cure. There may not be one, but it will take years, anyway.

[AtomicKitten]

32. He's the Democratic nominee in an election we've waited 8 long-ass years for.

And I for one intend to work my ass off for his election.

[mix]

33. you state the obvious...

...toughen up

[AtomicKitten]

34. the obvious that seems to escape some here - this isn't a dress rehearsal

[pollo poco]

35. why move to the right?

If you are already kicking ass on the issues?

Why move to the right if moving to the right has already failed for every other dem?

Why move to the right if it will allow our enemies to claim that the right is the center?

Why move to the right if you're running on change, which is what the clear majority in this country wants?

Why move to the right if it saps energy from your base?

Why move to the right if it means shredding the constitution?

Maybe he is not moving to the right because of the electorate. The electorate doesn't choose the president. The people who do choose the president won't let him be elected if he doesn't move to the right. Remember how they shut Edwards and Kuchinich out of the media? Those candidates made it clear that they would not be moving to the right.

Game over.

Obama is making it clear that he will "play ball". So, he will get his chance.

That is why Obama must move to the right. It has nothing to do with swing voters. But it has everything to do with being elected.

Given this set of circumstances, I would say symptom.

[walldude]

39. The question isn't whether Obama is a symptom or a cure

but whether you are. Judging by this thread and your responses in it, "Politics is about pushing" and "toughen up" you are neither the symptom or the cure but the disease itself. I'm not into "blind faith" and I am happy to jump on Obama for the things I disagree with him on, but I'm also not fucking stupid enough to attempt to split the party by posting inane, veiled questions about Obama's loyalty to Democrats. Pathetic.

[mix]

41. this makes no sense

eom

[truthisfreedom]

43. It makes perfect sense. Obama is a breath of fresh air. Your question is loaded.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

[mix]

46. wrong

The question is only "loaded" if you assume that Obama is above criticism. I do not. His move to the center/right is a symptom of what is wrong with this country since policies meant to appeal to this demographic are failures and endanger our democracy, i.e FISA. Yet clearly after 8 years of Bush-Cheney, Obama offers many cures, such as in education and hopefully health care.

It is not a sin to have doubts and questions about one's candidate and what better place to discuss them than at DU? Nor does this risk "splitting the party" or handing McCain the election. I refuse to believe otherwise. Such claims are nonsense, hyperbole.

[walldude]

47. It is not a sin to have doubts and questions about one's candidate

No it's not. But to post those doubts in simplistic terms trying to label Obama as either a "cure" or a "symptom" shows a lack of any real debate or dissension. Your thread adds nothing whatsoever to the debate on Obama, it seeks to label him. It is a useless right wing tactic that Americans have had enough of.

[truthisfreedom]

50. Obama is our candidate. Associating him with disease is toxic.

He's our one best chance to save our country.

[Buzz Clik]

49. kick! bump! Two thumbs up.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. a bit of both

[papapi]

45. There is no cure.

[Milo_Bloom]

57. a Band-Aid being used to fight cancer.

[anonymous171]

58. He is more like a retroviral that will prevent the virus of Conservatism from replicating.

And make way for more progressive candidates in 2012 or 2016.