Newsday: Senate Dems not backing Obama on wiretapping bill

[highplainsdem]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/politics/ny-usdems0709,0,1165986.story

BY GLENN THRUSH | [e-mail]
10:04 PM EDT, July 8, 2008
WASHINGTON - Sen. Charles Schumer and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid are bucking their party's presidential nominee Barack Obama by opposing a White House-backed warrantless wiretapping bill expected to be voted on Wednesday.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, has not made up her mind on the controversial measure.

During the primaries, Clinton and Obama both vowed to filibuster the overhaul of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act if it contained a provision giving telecom companies protection from lawsuits.

Obama, who has been eager to counter GOP claims that he's weak on national security, infuriated many of his own supporters last week by saying he now supports the FISA measure passed by the House, even though it includes legal immunity for the companies.

-snip-

Spokesman Philippe Reines said Clinton "hasn't stated her position" on the measure, which is expected to pass Wednesday or Thursday with a bipartisan majority.

-snip-

The vote puts Clinton in a bind. If she backs the bill, she'll be accused of reneging on her promise. If she votes no, she runs the risk of jeopardizing her newfound alliance with Obama.

-snip-

Between 20 to 30 other Democrats are defying Obama on the vote, including top Obama supporter Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) and Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.).

Does anyone have a closer estimate yet on that "between 20 and 30 other Democrats" figure?

[Captain Hilts]

1. They shouldn't. Don't pass anything important in Bush's 9th inning.

The Republican Congress gave him Carte Blanche for six years and he abused it.

Ee-nuff!

[eleny]

2. He's between the devil and the deep blue sea

[LakeSamish706]

3. Is Barack playing reverse Psychology on this? I just don't understand how anyone...

can back this!

[Ian David]

6. I think you and I came up with the same theory. n/t

[eleny]

8. Interesting, you two - Very interesting!

[LakeSamish706]

15. Great minds think alike... n/t

[LakeSamish706]

14. Both he and his campaign know that they can't jump into this the way that they...

would like to.... In fact, if he didn't do what he is doing, it very well might sink him in November.... My thoughts are that so what if this does pass, he will blow it out on January 10, 2009 with a full restoration of our Constitution and Habeas corpus at this time..... I have an utmost faith in Barack and I don't think he will let any of us down.

[hlthe2b]

17. Wow... I wish I had that much faith... I'm feeling demoralized....

After listening to Sam Seder (subbing for Malloy) with Christy Hardin Smith from Firedoglake and Glen Greenwald--two very active constitutional attorneys--I am totally dismayed. 'Hoping for a hail mary, because I don't have faith it will be restored later. The damage will have been done.

[vaberella]

27. And this is the problem I'm having with people on this board.

If you want to list to other people read these..

You don't need to be constitutional lawyer to read the constitution and understand it, or even legal language. What you need is to pay attention and maybe a dictionary. It's not written in a foreign language.

Second issue, why are you listening to the opinions of others. The FISA is available online and there are tons of informative links on it. Read it carefully 2-3 times and then read the arguments for and against and you might see a difference in how the arguments are structured.

I have seen people quote articles that quote people talking about the FISA but not directly relating an argument based on the Bill itself. Well, there are a few posters on DU who did read the bill and used logical arguments for FISA----even though we can all agree 100% it's not perfect, that it doesn't do everything MSM and various others are saying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3570855

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6464503&mesg_id=6464707

After readind everything, then you can form an opinion that is not based on what others have said, but you're own understanding of the bill and how it affects us citizens.

[hlthe2b]

30. You know what, I think I'll take the opinion of three of the country's

most noted constitutional legal scholars, John Dean, Jonathan Turley and Glen Greenwald. Now, I am an intelligent person, have read the FISA bill and the constitution, but I do not think so highly of myself that I would discount the opinions of these three. I gather that you do? :shrug:

And given that I have more attorneys in my family than I can shake a stick at, I have had four decades to "live, breathe, eat" legal issues. While you may not have meant to be condescending in your post, perhaps you will take the perception to heart. However, I do have to allow for the possibility that I do not understand your post--especially after seeing some seemingly contradictory postings from you down thread....:shrug:

[LakeSamish706]

33. So your point is what? We have Democrats in both the House and the Senate....

that don't have a problem with allowing both laws and our Constitution to be obliterated.... Still the bottom line comes down to; Do you want a John McCain as President or a Barack Obama? I don't for one minute like what I am seeing with this FISA bill or vote, but there is virtually not a damn thing that I can do about it at this point. Most if not all of our Congress Critters have either fallen asleep, or don't give a rats ass about you and me (Joe Public). We are screwed, and have been for the past almost 8 years (and probably much longer than that).

[PurityOfEssence]

16. Maybe that's why he got so mad at Jeremiah Wright: because he IS a standard politician

I had given Obama a lot of credit for taking Wright's blather personally and not mincing words about being personally insulted and wounded by this admonition, but maybe that's the point: he didn't want to be called out as a maneuvering politician any more than the Wizard of Oz wanted that curtain pulled aside.

Some of the mental contortionism here is getting quite impressive, but perhaps some of his mistakes or missteps aren't further proof of his unparalleled supergenius. Maybe they're further exercises of a pattern he's been VERY successful with: playing both sides of the street. The problem is that his record is really long on this now, and he's going to take hits for his honesty.

One very alarming thing is how this impacts the deep and sincere emotional trust so many have in this man. Disillusionment is a deadly thing to a personality-based campaign, and make no mistake about it: this is a personality-based campaign. It's all about trust and faith and hope and a belief that on some fine, bright day when he's got the reins of power in his hand he'll do the right thing.

I hope the thrill doesn't wear off and I hope he doesn't do too many other bone-headed and crypto-conservative things like this; I want him to win the election.

Examine your premise, though: perhaps every move he makes ISN'T magic. Perhaps he's a bit of a one-trick pony who's had a good run and may still have a long run ahead of him.

[LakeSamish706]

24. I know that this is painful to say, and I don't like it... But we must at any and all...

cost, get Barack elected as our next President over a John McCain.... And what I mean by that is, I don't like it at all when a Politician is a Politician and will say and do anything to get elected, but in this case it is a must. This country/world cannot afford a John McCain as President for even 4 years, let alone a possible 8.. and thats a big ugh.

[PurityOfEssence]

31. Agreed.

Stuff like this tends to sap the enthusiasm, though, and I wonder whether the hypothetical swing voters gained by such moves outnumber the lefties who get scattered to the winds out of disgust.

There's another point that hasn't really been all that explored: what if this isn't just a tactical move to avoid criticism for his patriotism? What if he really agrees with this and isn't merely lying to appease the reactionaries? What if he DOES tack back to the left; will he be able to endure the disdain and feeling of betrayal from non-lefties he's sought to string along?

Whether he believes it or not, there's something deeply cynical about it, and that's in very loud discord with a campaign based solely on one man's character and the character in question is defined as idealistic. Did he sucker us, or is he attempting to sucker them? All we can do is trust; the other option is a non-starter. The difference here is that I simply don't buy the contention that this was necessary.

Still, he's the guy, and he needs to be elected.

[LakeSamish706]

34. I hear ya... And am deeply worried by my own words actually... My hope has to be...

my belief, and that is he and his campaign know what they are doing and when the time is right, they will do the right thing. If not, we are all screwed anyway. At that point, we might just as well lay down and let the tank roll over us cause we will have no place to turn... So, all I can do is hope that my gut is right.

[Ian David]

4. Obama is FUCKING BRILLIANT!

Obama has gotten Harry Reid to do the right thing for a change, simply by doing the opposite himself!

Barack Obama has used reverse psychology on that Bush-dog piece of shit Harry Reid... and it WORKED!

[PurityOfEssence]

21. That's the biggest bit of gyroscopic piffle I've heard all week

This is like church astronomers coming up with reverse paths for planets and other wild and erratic behavior to force-fit observations into an earth-centric worldview. The only thing you got right here is that what he did was calculated to an extreme degree.

Maybe it's just the mollifying ultramoderate hornswoggling that it appears to be. Maybe every action of his waking day isn't sheer, transcendent genius.

Just a thought.

[chimpymustgo]

32. Purity, you do have a way with words. And an eye for the truth. Thank you for being here.

[berni_mccoy]

5. Totally Bogusly Spun Headline. It couldn't be crafted any worse.

How about, Senate Dems supporting Obama by uniting to yank the Immunity clause?

[John Q. Citizen]

9. Did they yank immunity?

[berni_mccoy]

11. Well, they are working on it.

[John Q. Citizen]

18. "They" would be Dodd and Feingold, right? I hope they do it and I hope bush vetos the rest.

[vaberella]

13. This is what I thought I heard in the News when the Senate spoke. The Dems were trying to get rid

of the clause. What is this crap I'm hearing about the Dems going against Obama?!

Fuckin' hell I hate all MSM!!

[Mass]

7. Between 20 and 30? That is all? Who are the 20 who will vote for it?

[NattPang]

10. It puts Clinton in a bind?

And I guess that Obama is home free?

[vaberella]

12. I'm not getting the whole "Reverse Psychology" can someone expand on that for me. All has been a

Bush day for me.

[MarjorieG]

20. I'm confused. Isn't Obama opposing the immunity, but yes on the bill (when amendment fails)?

[nc4bo]

22. wikipedia does a most excellent job describing it.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_psychology

[vaberella]

25. I know what Reverse Psychology is, however I don't see how it's used in this situation.

[nc4bo]

26. well i had an idea but wasn't 100% sure but when i read the examples....

in wiki, i immediately "got it".

Sorry, thought it'd help.

[vaberella]

28. Let me be more clear, I don't know who or how important Harry Reid is that he's discussed in

context of RP. Secondly, I'm just not grasping things as easily as I should since I'm in the midst of math finals.

[Canuckistanian]

19. Why would Hillary risk Obama's wrath if she votes against it?

Obama knows damned well this bill is controversial.

And why would Obama alienate a major force in the party by punishing her?

This doesn't make sense.

[AtomicKitten]

23. There is much more to this dance than we are privy to.

[vaberella]

29. Agreed, the dems that are so-called against. Aren't voting against but wanting elmination of

immunity. Second thing that annoys me, is that one MSM a few days ago stated that Hillary would vote against FISA. Now all of the sudden Hillary is on the fence about the bill, this is after Obama had already stated he was going with it.

The focus now is to strike out the immunity or retroactive immunity as the bill inadvertently gives.
I definitely think there's more to it than most poeple know for sudden turn abouts.

And C-span showed the Senators basically stating that they want the retroactive immunity struck but didn't vote yet.