There could have been no Fisa Filabuster

[AllentownJake]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=132&topic_id=6474529&mesg_id=6474529

Final vote 66-32 for stripping immunity

"The term first came into use in the United States Senate, where Senate rules permit a senator, or a series of senators, to speak for as long as they wish and on any topic they choose, unless a supermajority of three-fifths of the Senate (60 Senators, if all 100 seats are filled) brings debate to a close by invoking cloture.<6>" From Wiki (not the best source but a quick one)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filabuster#United_States

The Nays on stripping immunity are enough to shut down a filabuster debate and call for a vote.

So can we shut the hell up about this and move on to November now.

[AllentownJake]

1. Crickets

For all the gnashing of teeth against Obama the past 3 weeks I'd expect to hear something.

[DevonRex]

2. It doesn't serve their purpose to recognize reality. Good post. K&R

[Windy]

3. He did what he said he would do. nt

[rateyes]

4. No.

If we don't hold our Democratic Senators and Representatives feet to the fire, then who will?

I, for one, will not be silent in the face of losing our freedoms, even when those freedoms are given away by Democrats.

[DevonRex]

6. So did you contact the 17 dems who voted to KEEP immunity? nt

[rateyes]

29. Not all 17, but a bunch of them...as well as my DINO Rep. Jim Marshall

who, if he loses his seat by one vote will know that it's mine.

[AllentownJake]

7. How bout starting with the senate democrats

that voted against stripping the provision than attack the democratic nominee who voted to strip the provision.

[rateyes]

30. I haven't attacked Obama. Howver, he voted for stripping immunity...

which failed, and will now vote in favor of immunity when voting in favor of the entire bill. IMO, he shouldn't do that. He had a chance to use his influence as the titular head of the party right now to lead other Dems in voting "no" on the bill, and didn't use it. I'm still voting for him in November. I won't, however, give him a pass simply because he's the nominee.

It's not about him. It's about the Constitution and our freedoms.

[rhett o rick]

13. Big talk, but what are you going to do?

I am not mocking you. I agree we need to do something, but to "hold their feet to the fire" we need leverage. What can we do if they ignore us like they have been?

Incumbent Democrats are golden, they never, ever lose in the primary elections. Except once in Lieberman and that was a unique case and he still got reelected.

I am not suggesting we do nothing but we need to find a way to put pressure on them. We won't get any help from the Democratic Party either. They love incumbents.

[rateyes]

33. I don't reallhy give a damn who controls the Senate and Congress,

if the results are the same. I won't be voting for my Democratic Blue Dog either in the primary or in the General Election.

Progressives in this country need to unite around principles, and not around a political party. I'm voting for Obama because he's the most progressive of those running and have a chance to win. I do not, however, think it helpful to rubber-stamp everything he does. We've had enough of that kind of politics.

IMO, we need to do away with political parties in this country. George Washington was right about that.

[rhett o rick]

46. I agree with you in part. The Democratic party doesn't seem to be correcting our ills.

But the people of this country are no where near as progressive as you are and Congress represents them too. The lesser of evils is the shits but it's what we got. You say you are choosing Obama because he's the most progressive (that's lesser of evils). IMO we need to work within the Democratic party until there is a better choice.

Short term replace all republicanTs. Long term, work to get progressive politicians at the lower levels hoping they will move up.

I think that working outside the party can also be useful. It might get the attention of the Democratic leadership if a non-party organization, maybe like Moveon.org, starting voting as a block and influencing elections and candidates.

[vaberella]

42. Get the dems who voted Nay!! Obama wasn't one of them.

[elocs]

5. We could move on to November, but it's always going to be something. n/t

[Bullet1987]

8. A lot of these people are simply Naderites looking for a fight

The others will probably ignore this as it goes against their knee jerking.

[fascisthunter]

9. no, but you can "shut the hell up" anytime

as for the rest of us, it's an individual decision to pressure the candidate regardless.

[AllentownJake]

11. I'd rather see a democrat in the whitehouse

than pressure him when he's trying to get elected than enjoy pissing and moaning because that's all I'm capable of.

I'll spend my time saying good things about the nominee and volunteering for him and sleep well at night. When he's my President than I'll let him know when I'm disapointed in his decisions and I think I'll have an easier time getting the message to someone than the people pissing and moaning now.

[fascisthunter]

19. You don't get it, do you

I don't give a fuck what you want, especially when you think you are any position to tell me or others to "shut the hell up".

And another thing, I want a Democrat with a backbone to be the President, not someone who is going to give corporate criminals a fucking pass like the republican President will be doing. Got it?

See, actually your line of thinking is closer to that of McCain's and the Republicans by allowing this Bill to pass. So when you say you want a "democrat" in office, it's now meaningless.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bullet1987]

14. At the cost of the MSM jumping on top of it?

Just like I said...looking for a fight.

[fascisthunter]

Oh I See... the MSM media scares Obama

or is it that the excuse these days? Does the media tell you how you should vote and behave too? And do you actually listen to them that much? Doesn't say to much for those sitting on the fence, I hope you realize that while he tries to win an election.

[Bullet1987]

23. When people moan and groan about everything Obama does

It's foolish not to take the corporate MSM, who is going to carry McJoke's water, into account. There's a time and a place to show your frustration. Obama NEEDS the netroots if he hopes to defeat McMSM. I guess you don't get that point.

Some Dems never learn from history I swear.

[fascisthunter]

27. no it's actually foolish for supporters to cover politicians asses

for not doing the right thing in "hopes" that when they get into office they'll do the right thing then. It's actually pathetic and why the democratic party itself is so damn corruptand corporatized. Keep enabling bad behavior, soon you will look exactly like die-hard Republicans.

[Bullet1987]

34. So you don't care that the MSM is using THAT opinion against Obama to HELP McCain?

That's laughable if you don't.

[fascisthunter]

35. Um... but on the flip side you give the media more ammo than me

It's sad that you would assume any candidate you supported would not be strong enough to deal with the media on an issue as important as this. By your logic, you and all politicians are now soley bound to the media and what "they might say" about your candidate. If anything, that looks pretty damn weak. On the other hand, standing up for the right thing regardless of the media, is what we really need.

Many in Congress followed your type of logic and gave everything Bush wanted to invade Iraq. THAT's what happens when you support politicians bad behaviors, behaviors that are motovated by a fear of the media and what they might say.

[AllentownJake]

28. Don't bother

Arguing with this group of democrats is like arguing evolution with an evangelical Christian.

They know what is "right" all the time.

[gateley]

10. The vote on the bill itself hasn't taken place yet - just the amendments.

And I feel betrayed by every fucking Democrat who voted to defeat those amendments, filabuster or no.

[AllentownJake]

12. The 17 who voted for it

Should feel the wrath not the ones who voted against it.

[Bullet1987]

15. I agree...

[gateley]

38. Which one?

I think, for example, Webb was an AYE for one of the amendments, a NAY for another (don't know about the third).

Anyway, they won't feel the wrath. It's politics as usual and it drives me fucking nuts.

[AllentownJake]

40. Democracy

Best system except for all the others. :shrug:

[gateley]

41. Yep. You boiled it down to the real issue. Thanks. nt

[rhett o rick]

16. Where is the list of the turncoat 17? I can probably guess pretty close. nm

[AllentownJake]

17. Click the first link

[Windy]

20. You can except for a few. I was shocked at Webb, MacCaskill and Dorgan... n/t

[Zodiak]

25. Dorgan voted the right way

At least according to this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6474529

[Zodiak]

24. Webb and McCaskill are the surprises

The rest is the DLC membership list, minus Clinton and Kerry.

[depakid]

26. The real cowards are those who voted against cloture and against the bill

Trying to have it both ways- when a key provision of the Bill of Rights (and goverbmentt and corporate accountability) is at stake.

IMO, Congress has earned every point of its 90% disapproval rating.

[Mass]

32. Care to clarify? Who are you aiming.

[depakid]

36. As I recall, 15 stood up and voted against cloture- and 32 voted against the bill

leaving 17 out there who either didn't vote the first go round- or who expressed a feeble opinion- or more likely a craven vote.

Haven't seen the list yet, but I have a pretty good guess about who's among 'em.

[Mass]

37. Ok, it is clear now. I agree

I got confused because nobody has voted against the bill yet. The 32 voted for an amendment stripping immunity. Not obvious every single one of the 32 will vote against the bill.

[depakid]

39. My bad- it was confusing

but the point is pretty much the same.

There was one way to stop this bill- and only 15 Senators had enough integrity to take that route.

[John Q. Citizen]

18. Cloture on the bill was invoked last week. Where were you? With Obama somewhere other than in the

Senate?

the vote was 66-22 against stripping immunity, not for stripping it.

[NorthCarolina]

22. It seems evident that only the Republicans know how to conduct an effective Filabuster

eom

[Mass]

31. No real surprise for this vote

except of course for those who have no clear idea where people stand on issues.

[rhett o rick]

43. Personally I think things look pretty bleak. But I ain't never going to shut up thank you.

You can close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears until Nov if you like. Not me.

[AllentownJake]

44. I see forest from trees

Sorry you don't

[rhett o rick]

47. I knew it was something. Good luck to you, I mean it. nm

[SidneyCarton]

45. K&R for sanity

[barack the house]

48. Exactly the story is dead now, 2 choices Obama or McSame.