Obama was never the progressive candidate, but don't let this one vote fool you: neither was Hillary

[Stop Cornyn]

Obama was always well to the right of Kucinich and Edwards, but so was every other '08 candidate. Obama is barely to the left of Hillary on most issues and a good measure to the left of Richardson on even more issues.

Hillary voted correctly on FISA, but -- then again -- she's not running in a general election and we'll never know how she would have voted if she had won the nomination.

I'd be disappointed in Obama's vote if I had any misunderstanding that he was "the most liberal politician in the Senate" (as the RusHannity-bots like to say).

Obama is neither among the most liberal Senators nor among the most conservative Democrats in the Senate. Still, he's a decent guy and he's not running to the right of where Kerry ran in the general election of '04 or where Gore ran in the general election of '00 or where Bill ran in '96 and '92. In fact, Obama is running about where Kerry ran (perhaps even a bit to the left of where Kerry ran), and Obama's running well to the left of Gore and Bill.

In truth, Obama is a moderate Democrat who is about as liberal as he could be without jeopardizing his prospects in the general election.

[Enrique]

1. I think Edwards was right there with Obama and Clinton

certainly closer to them than to Kucinich.

[democrattotheend]

3. Definitely

And I think he would have gone even further to the right had he gotten the nomination.

[ThatPoetGuy]

14. Not exactly true.

On issues like gay rights, guns, war, and the environment, Edwards, Hillary, and Obama were all centrists. On issues dealing with poverty, workers' rights, and health care, Edwards was very much to the left of the others, and he always was. His voting record in Senate was sadly centrist, except on the populist issues, where he voted consistently to the left. He and I don't see eye-to-eye on plenty of issues, but on many that matter a lot, he's a superstar.

[karynnj]

32. Edwards had one of the least liberal healthcare plans

and called Kerry's too expensive in 2004 - so on healthcare he was not ALWAYS to the left of the others - who both had credentials that he didn't have. HRC in lobbying Bill Clinton to fund S-CHIP and Obama for legislation in Illinois. He was mostly with the left on trade - but not always - when he was it was usually where NC would be negatively affected. As Biden pointed out his record on worker's rights does not extend back that far.

In truth, Edwards record in the Senate was extremely conservative DLC centrist Democrat- more like Evan Bayh than Kennedy. Only in the runup to 2008 has he been a real progressive.

[Stop Cornyn]

15. I agree that Kucinich was by far the most progressive candidate, and Edwards was closer to Obama

than to Kucinich, but Edwards' health care plan was much more progressive than Obama's and somewhat more progressive than Hillary's. Edwards trade views from the '08 campaign (but not necessarily from his '04 campaign) were more liberal than Obama's or Hillary's. Edwards plans on withdrawal from Iraq were more progressive that Obama's or Hillary's (but you have to give Obama credit for opposing the war first -- so I'm talking here about withdrawal now that we're in, and not talking about original opposition). Edwards has been more progressive on domestic spying, civil justice, and tax policy than Obama or Hillary (although Kucinich beats 'em all on most any progressive issue you could name other than reproductive rights).

There are numerous other issues where Edwards was offering more progressive solutions than Obama or Hillary, but Obama is now the nominee so let's get behind him because Obama is well to the center from right-wing extremist McBush!

[Mike Nelson]

2. Yes

and Obama will stay "moderate" should "tptb" let him become President. Still, light-years better than McCain, tho...

[dionysus]

22. you're not the mike nelson i am thinking of are you?

[Mike Nelson]

36. I don't think so -- I did not know there was another

until there were some weird posts here after I joined
I figured it out later on

[dionysus]

40. so you're not the guy from mystery science theater 3000

;)

[anonymous171]

4. PRIMARY FIGHT!

:hide:

[Mike Nelson]

6. let's not start that again!

yikes!

[Mike Nelson]

5. And Dennis was the best

they got him "out of it"

[Captain Hilts]

7. True! The "Obama's more liberal than Feingold" crowd here are suckers!

But I'll still vote for him, as I would have Clinton.

[judy]

8. "without jeopardizing his prospects"

What is making people think that by letting this bill go by with immunity and all, he is increasing his prospects?
I think he is jeopardizing his prospects by voting in favor of the bill.
Obama got to be the nominee, because he offered something new and different.
Now, he is acting just like every middle of the road democrat, and most of them, maybe all (as Bill Clinton did not change until he was in the WH) have lost against Republicans.

Clearly standing up for the Constitution would have done much more in my view to augment his prospects.

That said, of course I will vote for him.
But for a brief moment, I thought he was an inspired leader. Now I realize he's just the lesser of 2 evils.

That's too bad.
I have been writing email after email to his campaign, and never got any response aside from a request to donate. It is quite OK, but I realize that he and his campaign advisors have gone from extraordinary to same old same old.

Let's support them anyway, but I think our chances have diminished considerably.
Anyone else think so?

[MGKrebs]

16. OK, so let's review the alternative.

We scrape together enough votes to strip the immunity from the bill and then scrape together enough votes to pass the bill like that. But there's a Republican president and there is NO WAY he would sign that bill. But since we barely have enough votes to pass the bill, we would certainly would not be able to override a veto. So in August we would revert to the original FISA (which is a 30 year old program that needs SOME sort of overhaul) exposing Dems who opposed the bill to serious charges of not taking terrorism seriously, and actually hampering law enforcement activity in this area.

I don't like it either, but we only get so many choices.
Reminds me of the IWR vote.

[brentspeak]

24. No, that's wrong

If Bush vetoes an amended FISA bill, it would be pretty hard for the Republicans to claim that it was the Democrats who were soft on combating terrorism.

Furthermore, those "serious charges" you speak of would stick with the public only if the Democrats allow the GOP's talking points to dominate in the media. If the Democratic party were to get their PR act together, they could, for once, persuade the public not to buy into the Republicans' fear tactics.

[MGKrebs]

27. You remember that Rachel Ray scarf incident?

Do you really want to go head to head about media domination right now?

Besides, the perception is only an added burden on this one. Reverting to the old FISA legislation REALLY IS dangerous for terrorist intervention. (That doesn't make it constitutional, but when there is doubt, on which side do you err?)

[Hippo_Tron]

37. In an ideal world I err on the side of the constitution

In a world where Americans have been brainwashed to be scared shitless of terrorism there isn't much choice but to err on the other side.

[Hippo_Tron]

35. Have you been awake for the past 8 years? The media is in the GOP's pocket

While everything you said is true the media will not report that story. In their eyes the Republicans are NEVER EVER weak on security and if anything goes wrong it's the Democrats' fault no matter what. The only way to combat that spin is to pass a bi-partisan bill.

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. Obama was never the progressive candidate

Leave it at that.

[judy]

10. Standing up for the Constitution is not a "progressive" agenda.

Especially when you are a Constitutional scholar.
This should have been an easy call, and would have done a lot for his success in the GE.

I think he is compromising his "change" image, by behaving like every other middle of the road politician, if you ask me...

[MGKrebs]

20. We would have defaulted to a 30 year old program that doesn't consider modern

technology. It would be nice to have had a different bill, but we still have a Republican president who has vowed to veto the bill without an immunity clause, and it expires NEXT MONTH. We needed something and this was all we were going to get.

It's pretty easy to sit here and stand on principle, but those people had to vote now on "oversight of surveillance with immunity" or "decreased surveillance". There was no safe position. They were both bad, but this is a democracy and the system is designed to compromise. It sucks but it's not fair to act like they has a better choice. The alternative was worse.

[TexasObserver]

11. Not helpful!!

Hillary voted NO. I'm glad.

I'm not going to join the cacophony of shrill voices declaring it's the end of the world as we know it since Obama voted YES.

And I'm not going to attack Hillary for voting right.

[still_one]

12. "about as liberal as he could be without jeopardizing his prospects in the general election"

A very simple, and obvious observation you made, yet so profond some people cannot grasp it

The country has changed dramatically to the right

This does not mean that people need to agree with everything, but from the Supreme Court to the Iraq War the differences between mccain and Obama could not be greater

[Frances]

13. Kucinich ran in 2004 and in 2008

His percentage of votes was tiny. That's a fact.

I voted for Gore in 2000 when many DUers were saying that there was no difference between Gore and Bush. I voted for Kerry in 2004 (only a very few DUers said there was no difference between Kerry and Bush). I will vote Obama this fall because there is a HUGE difference between him and McCain.

[bvar22]

19. DU didn't exist until AFTER the election 2000.

"I voted for Gore in 2000 when many DUers were saying that there was no difference between Gore and Bush."

DU was founded AFTER the Supreme Court decision handing the election to Bush* in December of 2000.

[Frances]

34. I wasn't clear.

I came to DU soon after it started. Quite a few DUers were arguing that they were right to have voted for Nader instead of Gore because there was no difference between the two.

Is there a way I can find out when I made my first post? I was so naive that I thought I was supposed to use my real first name. Wish I had known better so I could have come up with something clever like the rest of you.

[LostinVA]

17. Senator Clinton is a strong supporter of Senator Obama -- why slag her?

She's been giving major support and time to Senator Obama, so what has she done to make you want to rehash the Primaries???

[Maddy McCall]

21. Like freepers, the obsession with the Clintons is so overpowering...

some people can't help but use them as a reference point for everything.


"My wife has big hips."

"Well, are they like Hillary's?"

....

"My husband won't have sex with me."

"I wonder if he's doing his secretary, like Bill Clinton?"

....

"Obama voted for FISA today."

"Well, Bill Clinton started the Carnivore program."

:eyes:

[JVS]

18. Edward's populist rhetoric was less than credible in light of his record

[brentspeak]

25. Doesn't matter. All that matters is what he would do as President.

FDR's tenure as New York state's governor gave absolutely no clue to how he presided as President.

[paulk]

23. I've never felt Obama was to the left of Hillary

I thought he was to the right...

Neither did Progressive Punch. Check it out.

http://www.progressivepunch.org/

With the higher rating meaning more progressive, Hillary Clinton got a 90.4, Obama got an 88.1.

The most interesting catagory for me was "corporate subsidies". Hillary got a 100% ranking and tied for first - Obama got 77 and ranked 28th. In other words, he ranked among the minority of Democrats. Not the first time he's voted with the minority of Democrats - besides FISA, there's his "yes" votes on the Bush/Cheney Energy Bill and Republican Tort Reform in 2005.

How many times did Hillary get called the "corporate candidate" on this board? Seems like a lot of people around here just weren't paying attention. They got caught up in the hype, they bought the ad campaign, and now that the scales are coming off what we're left with are slogans. I guess we'll just have to "hope" for that "change" Obama talked about when he gets elected.

[theliberalking]

26. Obama has always been a progressive

Take any political test and you will end up being matched with Obama in your views, if you are a progressive. Obama has advocated progressive positions throughout his career. He\'s for the middle class and the poor.

[democrattotheend]

41. Why did this person get tombstoned?

What was wrong with what he/she said?

[joshcryer]

28. HAHAHA, Hillary's positions were *significantly* more liberal than Obama's!

It's the *only* reason I supported her more than Obama.

[newmajority]

29. Right. Because the DLC Leadership is just chock full o' LIBERALS

[joshcryer]

30. Her connections aside, her history aside, her plans were better. Simple.

I go on by what a candidate claims they will do not by their 'connections.'

[karynnj]

31. Correct on everyone except Edwards

Edwards was substantially to Kerry's right in 2004. In fact, his 2008 platform had more in common with Kerry's 2004 one, than his own 2004 one. Edwards voted for the bankruptcy bill. Kerry is not as liberal as Kennedy but he is in the more liberal half of the party, as is Obama.

[Solon]

33. Hence the reason both he and Hillary were at the bottom of the my list for Dem Candidates...

for President.

[Hippo_Tron]

38. Intentional or not this is nothing more than a re-hashing of the primaries

We had several lengthy debates during the primaries about whether or not Senator Clinton or Senator Obama was the more liberal candidate.

[Lilith Velkor]

39. She never pretended she was

A lot of liberals talked themselves into believing he was one of their own, the One who would save them from the Demon Queen or some such horseshit.

So here we are.

Ritual disclaimer to any idiots about to pop the question: of course I'm voting for him, you fucking douchebag.

[Ian David]

42. Obama Says His Critics Haven’t Been Listening (‘I am someone who is no doubt progressive’)

Obama Says His Critics Haven’t Been Listening (‘I am someone who is no doubt progressive’)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3390982&mesg_id=3390982