Even if you ignore the impact on our rights, Obama made a POLITICAL mistake today.

[Pale Blue Dot]

I have been following Obama's numbers lately, and while I believe that the economy is so bad that McCain can't win, McCain has been pulling closer ever since Obama decided to appeal to the "moderates".

This is a political mistake. The majority of Americans want someone to fight against the Bush Administration, no matter what the issue is. ANY capitulation is seen by Joe Six-Pack as a verification that there is really no difference between the candidates.

Obama needs to look at the polls and realize that his move to the "center" is a terrible political mistake. He and his advisers must reevaluate his campaign, NOW.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. It is a strategic mistake

and will see what are the results

[PassingFair]

69. A strategic and cynical mistake.

Just like the kind of mistake Hillary made on IWR.

NOT cool.

[elocs]

2. Well, one thing is certain--Obama has no lack of advisors here at DU,

and all are anxious to point out his many mistakes. He may not run the perfect campaign, but he did damn well against Clinton. Too many here at DU look into the mirror and believe they are seeing the exact reflection of the total electorate who will vote for Obama. If he is moving anywhere it is to the center of his own party and not the center between the 2 parties. I really don't think that the majority of Americans would describe themselves as being in the left wing of the Democratic Party.

[Pale Blue Dot]

3. Pay attention to the poll numbers.

They will speak for themselves.

[John Q. Citizen]

4. Or on his own web site. The largest group by far of his supporters are opposed to the bill he voted

for today.

I wonder what will happen if his invitation to supporters on platform writing ends up that people want the repeal of this bill and immunity as part of the Democratic Platform.

That will make for some interesting politics.

Given that virtually all the Republicans and a minority of the Democrats supported the FISA bill, do you believe elocs. that a majority of Americans describe themselves as being in the bush wing of the Republican Party? They all voted for that bill, after all.

[sniffa]

7. And most of them will no longer donate to him (if they did at all)

And that includes those who logged 200+ hours during the primaries.

[John Q. Citizen]

56. Have you ever been to Obama's web site? Or do you fill your days here at DU?

[sniffa]

76. Obama has a web site?

Get out! :wow:

[John Q. Citizen]

77. Yeah. His supporters are organizing to get him to change his views on FISA.

away from the bush Republican position to where the majority of elected congressional Democrats are at.


As you predicted, sniffa, some are pretty upset with him for cutting and running on his pledge he made to his supporters in Oct 07.

Some are making excuses for him for cutting and running on his pledge he made in Oct.07

And some are just confused about why this is happening.

Here's the url. Check it out. You may need to register.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA

[dkf]

5. Obama didn't vote to give those tools to Bush, he voted so he could use them himself.

Face it, Congress isn't going to limit Bush anyway.

Maybe Obama sees some use in these tools that can protect the country.

I don't like it myself, but I do think this is where he is coming from.

[percussivemadness]

6. assuming he wins.....

[dkf]

10. True. Bush expanded Presidential powers so much that we HAVE to win.

[Pale Blue Dot]

8. He if it's a Democrat is using these tools. it's OK?

Do you think "independent" voters feel that way?

[percussivemadness]

12. I can tell you they don`t

My phone has been ringing for the last hour from friends who are outraged at Obama`s vote...

There is a saying "the trouble with people who sit in the middle of the road, is they get run over by traffic coming from both ways"

I think Obama is about to find that out.

[dkf]

17. He couldn't stop it anyway.

I'm just saying this is no longer about giving Bush these tools. He has taken it and run with it for years now. This vote is about the future and nothing congress could do would have stopped Bush anyway. It takes ages to figure out what he is doing, and then when we try to stop it they stonewall like crazy and show absolute contempt for congress and any oversight we may try to exercise.

I say we get Obama the Presidency, then we investigate and expose dirty Republican tricks. And then hopefully everyone will be disgusted and won't trust this bunch ever again.

[Pale Blue Dot]

21. It DOESN'T MATTER if he couldn't stop it!

The average American wants a fighter. Obama proved that he isn't one today.

[dkf]

25. Yeah, but does the Average American want a loser?

Just sayin.

And yes, I'm not hot on the FISA bill, but I'm trying to figure out where Obama is coming from. And if this was early in Bush's term, I would be crying about giving Bush these powers. But its the end of the Bush nightmare. We only have a few months to go.

[Pale Blue Dot]

28. Obama came out looking like the loser today.

Bush is at 23%. He sided with Bush. Do the math.

[MarjorieG]

42. Like in 2004, keep saying our guy is bad-and dampen enthusiasm.

[percussivemadness]

45. lets not go into 2004...Something about "walking away" still irks me

[Pale Blue Dot]

46. I fought and campaigned for Kerry in 2004. nt

[Bluerthanblue]

54. bullshit- bush didn't want to strike immunity- and bush's replacement

couldn't be bothered to vote.

YOU may see him as a loser- but you are quite honestly only one person- You aren't "the American people"- you aren't "the Democratic party"- you aren't even the mouth-peice for DU.

You are Finnfan- no more or less important than any of us.


peace~

[Pale Blue Dot]

55. Fair enough.

Talk to your friends and family tomorrow - see how important THEY are.

[Bluerthanblue]

61. already have- and said pretty much what I've been saying here-

right along.

:hi:
peace~

[BklnDem75]

65. Actually I just did...

they didn't mention one thing about politics today. This was after the nightly news. Most people just don't follow up on things like this. But I do know the Yankees beat Tampa and Santana got a shutout today.

[MarjorieG]

47. The famous fear card. McCain's only advantage is perceived security; they'll play it.

When that unforeseen, which we can foresee like clockwork, Obama helped with maintaining the Court due to expire.

Now it's off, except for the flip-flop which Obama will say was for security. It did do some things, but the overall needs to be corrected.

These are not powers we want for McCain, so we better elect Obama.

[dkf]

50. Yes...for me it raises the stakes in getting Obama elected.

Its do or die people.

[dflprincess]

9. If there is no Constitution

there is no United States to protect.

[MarjorieG]

11. Feingold was on Countdown confident Obama will fix this and other exec prez powers.

That he's a constitutional scholar and he knows his beliefs.

[sniffa]

14. Oh, THAT'S IT!!1!

I am no longer donating to Feingold. He can go ahead and be supported by the Telecoms then!

[MarjorieG]

36. This better be a joke. Lost my humor over this and can't tell.

[sniffa]

44. I'm SERIES!!1!

The ALLCAPS!!1!1!! should have tipped you off. :D

[Pale Blue Dot]

16. Like I said, I believe that McCain CAN'T win.

I think a depression is coming. Bush's approval is at 23% and will get worse.

I hope you're right about what Obama will do when he's in office. My point is that Americans WANT a fighter, and if Obama's not fighting now, despite all of his advantages, how can we be sure he will in the future?

[percussivemadness]

20. I agree McCain can`t win

but there is no depression coming...The oil bubble will collapse between 6 and 12 months from now...

[dkf]

22. Unless the Iran thing gets out of hand.

They are agitating the price of oil up.

[percussivemadness]

34. it doesn`t matter

Iran may spike the price short term, however this is simply a question of supply and demand. We have hit peak demand, not peak supply and there is only one way for this bubble to go, and that is pop.

[dkf]

51. You think we have hit peak demand?

I doubt it. Other countries have just begun to taste the life we have reveled in for years. They are beginning to see the fruits of their labor in their education systems etc. We have been living off of their work. Soon we will pay.

[percussivemadness]

62. without wishing to be disrespectful, you don`t know what you are talking about

Fact: In May the US reduced its demand for oil by circa 900,000 barrels per day, the 6 consecutive reduction in demand.

In May the increase in demand from China, India et all was just over 500,000 barrels per day. Therefore, the US reduction was twice the increase in demand from other countries...Production continues at the same level. In a simple supply and demand equation, prices should be falling.They are not. Iran has a lot to do with this, but the minute that situation is resolved, the bubble pops...You can dress it up all you want, thats the reality of the situation...

We have hit peak demand not peak oil....

[dkf]

72. This may be true in the short run, but I highly doubt

US consumption will keep declining faster than developing countries are growing their consumption, also taking into account that we are at or close to peak production of oil.

The Chinese economy is predicted to surpass us by 2030 and double us by 2050. I highly doubt that this type of growth can be achieved without dramatic increases in energy consumption.

2 billion new people are predicted to join the middle class worldwide by 2030.

Your short run predictions may turn out, indeed T. Boone Pickens thinks we will stay at $150 this year, then fall to $100. But in the long run, the entire world needs to figure out how to grow without relying on oil.

[Pale Blue Dot]

24. I've bookmarked this thread.

I'll talk to you in 6-12 months.

Would you like to wager?

[dkf]

31. No I would not like to wager, because I would not like to win based on

a disaster.

I hope I'm wrong. I just notice that every time Iran or Israel saber rattles, oil goes up another 5 bucks.

And I do believe Obama will put a stop to this bomb Iran business. So its this year or never.

[percussivemadness]

35. you don`t need to wager, but by all means talk to me in 6 - 12 months

I am right on this....

[Pale Blue Dot]

37. You're on. nt

[percussivemadness]

43. :)

[paparush]

23. They smear and swiftboat and then steal 4-8 points. "I John LoneStar McCain do solemnly swear...."

[AtomicKitten]

13. As much as the FISA bill sucks ass, Obama's position was a brilliant strategic move.

[percussivemadness]

15. absolutely, sort of like going all in on 7 2 offsuit and hoping

your bet will scare everyone else off...

[AtomicKitten]

19. maybe that's why people keep talking about his balls

[percussivemadness]

29. You can have the biggest balls in the world

going all in on 7-2 offsuit whilst in theory should force the table to all fold and you pick up the pot, you`re relying on the fact that noone is holding anything worthwhile to call your bluff, then the brilliant strategy looks like what is was all along, a stupid reckless move.

Obama should have voted with Feingold et all, this election will not be won based on a terror platform, Hilary found that out to her cost,

[AtomicKitten]

30. no, he did the right thing under the circumstances -- see post #26

[percussivemadness]

39. what part of "defend the constitution" are you having trouble understanding?

[AtomicKitten]

49. what part of making the best choice under the circumstances don't you understand?

Hey, kudos to your militant response to this, as it should be. But, ya know what? My outrage meter is on tilt. I've had enough of this bullshit administration. I have my eyes on the prize, the end of the tunnel, what we've waited eight long-ass years for.

This bill was going to pass anyway by a long shot, and Obama made the best of the situation. A smooth move, in fact, under the circumstances. Perhaps you disagree, and that's okay. I'm not knocking your outrage nor your opinion. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

[percussivemadness]

60. irrelevant...He took an oath to defend the constitution

today he broke that oath...

nothing more to say on this, you can justify it all you want, in simple terms, he broke his oath of office...

[Pale Blue Dot]

18. I disagree. Can you expand on your argument? nt

[AtomicKitten]

26. He did the right thing under the circumstances. Why? ---

The bill was going to pass anyway, the math just wasn't there, he fulfilled his promise to support and vote for the anti-immunity amendment, and the GOP can suck it when it comes to yet another handful of mud. He is inoculating himself against the sure to come GOP attacks.

Under these circumstances, he did the smart thing which in my book is the right thing.

Again, and please listen up here. The FISA bill sucked ass. Major ass. See above.

[Pale Blue Dot]

32. The GOP is at 23%.

Let them attack. Obama needs to show that he's DIFFERENT from the GOP.

[AtomicKitten]

40. The GOP is at 23% -- Polling paints a much different picture.

Obama is different than the GOP. If people would take the time to read his books and, well, everything they can find on him, that suggestion wouldn't even occur to them.

Obama's response to election fraud is that he's lawyered up and will be vigilant until legislation can correct this mess plus he intends to win BIG to make damn sure he's the one that makes it to the White House.

I realize you are projecting your anger about the FISA bill and, again, it does suck ass, but if you step back and look at it all as I outlined in post #26, it is clear he made the best possible choice under the circumstances.

[Pale Blue Dot]

48. "If people would take the time to read his books and, well, everything they can find on him"

What country are you living in? Of COURSE they're not doing that. They never have.

Obama hopefully has smart political advisers that are not relying on the relatively few independent voters who have read his book and instead focus on the real world.

[AtomicKitten]

52. He is part of the real world and you are pigeon-holing him erroneously.

You have no idea what he's about, clearly. If you did, you'd understand the real world that includes this candidate that is much more than the 2-dimensional version you have in mind.

But I digress. I'm not interested in a pissing match. I merely stated my opinion which apparently is too much for you to bear in a civil manner.

[Pale Blue Dot]

53. "I merely stated my opinion"

Do you honestly think that your opinion is the same as the average American in the "real world"?

[AtomicKitten]

57. Hate to break it to you -

but your opinion is in the minority in the Democratic Party en masse, and the party is massive. I know people get all puffy here on DU, but the truth is this place is a microcosm of the actual real world you reference but miscalculate.

We are knee-deep in a most important election. You'll have to pardon those of us that agree with you but see this more broadly, are acutely aware of the election already in progress, and understand under the circumstances Obama made the best possible move.

What has been done can be undone. We cannot, however, undo a botched election. Unless you're fine with some sabotaging Obama with an eye on 2012, a pragmatic point of view is mandatory.

[Pale Blue Dot]

58. At this point, I'll let history judge this.

And as I've said, I've got the thread bookmarked.

[John Q. Citizen]

64. A majority of Dems in both houses voted against this bill. A minority voted with the Republicans for

this bill.

I agree that the majority opinion in the Democratic Party is that this bill should be deep sixed.

I would posit that Obama signing on to this bill has hurt his campaign. I doubt it will ruin his campaign. But a lot of people who used to be excited are now disappointed.

You can't undo that by wishing it away.

Some who were excited are still excited. But less people are excited right now tonight about Obama than were excited about him a couple of weeks ago.

I expect you will see this in the polling. keep an eye open, and if he starts to dip, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate whether Obama supporting FISA was a good political move. If you see that it was indeed a bad move, do you have a fix in mind?

Hillary lost because she thought she was doing everything right, and when it became obvious she wasn't. she had no back-up plan. What I'm asking you since you have taken it upon yourself to explain Obama's strategy here, is what is the fall back in case this wasn't such a smart move?

Do you have a believable way to re-energize the people who are feeling depressed and disappointed that Obama would go back on his pledge to filibuster any bill that included immunity?

[AtomicKitten]

67. I'm not driving nor backseat driving his campaign.

Hey, I would prefer impeachment followed by a trial for war crimes at the Hague. I am sick, seriously, I'm physically ill contemplating the notion that these a-holes appear to be getting away unscathed. I feel very strongly that the Democratic Congress was spineless in neglecting to do their damn job. Not only would impeachment have been the right thing to do on a number of counts, it would have given Obama the ammunition to crush the GOP.

Obama stands between us and McBush's Third Term. He must prevail.

[AZBlue]

71. "The average American in the 'real world'" doesn't know shit about FISA.

They think it's a misspelling on their credit card bill.

[dkf]

73. Yes, and they all want to be protected from scary Muslims too.

sigh.

[percussivemadness]

41. perfectly said

[Egnever]

27. Sigh... laws can not take away our rights

Thats what the supreme court is for

[Pale Blue Dot]

33. So you believe that the Supreme Court will reverse this?

I'd like to see your evidence for that.

[Egnever]

74. If it violates the fourth amendment then yes I believe they will

[Bluerthanblue]

38. not if your argument has any truth to it at all- ; IF the majority of

Americans want something other than more bush-SHIT-
and are stupid or stubborn enough to think not voting
or voting for McCain is going to bring anything other than
misery and worse-
then "they" will get exactly what "they" deserve.


Obama's ONE vote would not have changed the outcome.- that SICK and SORRY truth is what people who are so filled with outrage should remember- and better yet, fight to change.

peace~

[vaberella]

59. This is like the 10th of 15th topic discussing the same thing on the first page. At this point I'm

starting to think people are trying to convince themselves that Obama's move was wrong.

[Joe Fields]

63. An observation that is deadly accurate.

K&R.

I just wish this message would get through.

[liberacci]

66. Time will tell

Politics are unpredictable. This may or may not hurt him.

[file83]

68. I agree Obama made a mistake - I'm so disappointed I'm probably not going to vote in November...

I'm not voting for McCain, I just don't see what the fucking point is anymore.

Nothing wreaks of "corrupt" more than a bunch of politicians voting "Yea" on a bill that grants any sort of waiver/loophole/immunity for CORPORATIONS that assisted the GOVERNMENT in violating the VOTERS constitutional rights from being prosecuted for said crimes.

This may as well be Mexico now, with all the corruption being out in the open as it is.

[grillo7]

75. Obama voted for the ammendment to strip Telcom immunity though...

This is about winning an election. If Obama voted no the Republicans would have destroyed him in October (especially if Bush pulls another October terror/war surprise)and we would have at least four more years of these kinds of screwed up policies under McCain. It's one thing to be symbolically principled--the bill would have passed no matter how he voted--but it's another thing to act strategically enough to win the upcoming election and have a chance to actually reverse the policies of the last eight years,and continuing them in the future. Not voting keeps us in Bushworld.

[GoldieAZ49]

70. Joe Six-Pack is going to vote for what is comfortable nt