The Constitution & Rule of Law Trump any Candidate with me. I lost my motivation for now.

[mod mom]

I wish I could say otherwise, but I lost my motivation to spend time away from my family (I have young children) working voter registration and other campaign related events for a party that turned it's back on the constitution and rule of law. It wasn't just FISA of course but such legislation as the Patriot Act (choke) Military Commissions Act, and other such legislation giving obscene power to a pResident that was never elected and has destroyed this country. I don't expect to agree with every stance that a candidate backs BUT I AM FUCKING BEYOND WORDS FOR THE BLATANT DISREGARD FOR THE CONSTITUTION AND RULE OF LAW! No excuses. Giving this torture monger/war profiteer additional power when he has shown repeated disregard for the law has broken my spirit. No more monthly donations. I intend on spending more time and my efforts toward family endeavors. Of course I'll vote for Obama BUT HE LOST A VERY MOTIVATED VOLUNTEER.

:rant:

Sorry, but I am beyond anger over this...isn't upholding the constitution what every elected official swears to do? Is equal protection really so far out of the main stream? Hasn't everyone seen the misuse of justice system by the criminals in power? :mad:

ps I still don't feel better. :nuke:

[John Q. Citizen]

1. I'm in the exact same boat. I'm going to work for down ticket Democrats instead.

[truedelphi]

104. Same here, I am sorry to say.

Obama really had me there for a few weeks. I loved him when he stood by the Rev Wright.

I thought that at the end of the Primaries he had figured out that he could do anything IF he remained true to himself. Guess not.

[atreides1]

2. Well Put

Now I'm afraid that you will either:

1) Be ignored.

2) Get flamed by the "Win at any cost" crowd.

3) Be ridiculed for your concern.

4) All of the above.

[AllentownJake]

3. Hit me for all of the above

thanks for saving my time.

BTW that was not sarcastic.

[mod mom]

14. I don't give a flying fuck if I'm ridiculed...

I've lost friends and family for my fight in exposing the election theft that occurred in '04. I have been called a conspiracy theorist (by the Chairman of our County DEM Party and under oath no less) for suggesting there were mis-allocation of voting machines in low income Af Am precincts near my home. I've been taunted for years at anti-war events. If ridicule makes you back down from your principles then you don't have them in the first place.

[AllentownJake]

19. You'd have better luck

working in the system than outside of it.

I don't know of any protest that has ever ended a war but I know of a few that have started one.

[sourmilk]

41. "If ridicule makes you back down from your principles then you don't have them in the first place."

Kucinich could have said that. Well done.

Look what else he has said in the past:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/01/kucinich-tells-supporters-to-caucus-for-obama/

“Senator Obama and I have one thing in common: Change.”

“He and I have been fighting for a number of the same priorities.”


FISA is a fight that cannot currently be won by vote or filibuster in the Senate. Patience, compromise, the challenge to Title II, the ACLU suit, the Supreme Court, etc. is where I believe the job will get done.

Obama is what we got. I'm disappointed in his decision, too. While I think that you are right and I think your principles are in exactly the right place, I really want a Democrat in the White house next January.

I think that you do, too.

[mckeown1128]

16. I'd like all of the above also...

The demands for purity around here are insulting. Us progressives are in the minority in this country Obama can't only make decisions based on what we want.

[pberq]

43. So now supporting the 4th Amendment is purity?

Illegal spying on Americans has now been made legal by the Senate.

And we're not supposed to be upset about that since it is too "pure"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Of course, the GO TEAM has no problem as long as it is done by our

bitch and not theirs

Why this COUNTRY is in such a hell of a hole

[mckeown1128]

127. It was going to be done regardless of how Obama

voted... but by voting for it he may have saved his campaign which will lead to the appointment of the judges and justices needed to overturn that pos law. If Obama voted against it we could very well have McCain as president..who will appoint cronies that will up hold it.

You guys are acting like Obama was the deciding vote in this.

[foo_bar]

78. it's cutting off your nose to spite your face

I agree that there's plenty of unconstitutional Acts of Congress on the books (or rather would be unconstitutional if the courts weren't stacked with cronies), but it's more reason why we need someone even in the political vicinity of Bill Clinton to appoint justices in the vicinity of Ginsburg and Breyer. The system wasn't designed to make Congresspeople care about the constitutionality of laws (heck slavery should have been a federal crime from the start given "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"), and it wasn't really designed to make the executive accountable to laws in general, so if we could just get the third branch to discharge its duty semi-faithfully we might see a return to the separation of powers if not quite a functional system of checks and balances. For all of Clinton's disappointments, his SC appointments are the sole reason we have a vestige of the constitution left in 5-4 decisions instead of 3-6 ones endorsing a dictatorship.

[jefferson_dem]

4. Sorry to hear that.

Hopefully, the Dems will win your support back and you'll be on the streets fighting the good fight again.

[peace13]

5. We have had a bit of that running through our home as well.

He could have at least explained his rationale to his supporters. I feel a bit like our backs were the stepping stones. What possibility is there that he will remember to review the 'Patriot' Act and the Presidential signing statements when he takes office. If this is a sign of things to come we may as well weed the garden at home and plan for the rough times ahead. Three volunteers in this household, in the trenches, hands on workers that are beginning to think that Obama better wake up and get back to his 'honest, tough talk approach' before we all realize that the joke was on us.

[AllentownJake]

10. I can't figure out

who is more likely to use the awful provisions of FISA more...John McCain or Obama.

I'll have to spend somedays meditating on that :sarcasm:

Get a grip

[peace13]

21. I'm guessing that you are out there humping for Obama?

If not please reserve your comments. The physical demands and financial commitment of people who volunteer are substantial. If you aren't out there you wouldn't know. If you were out there I think that you would have empathy.

[AllentownJake]

29. I've given alot of time to this campaign

and will be giving even more.

You don't have to lecture me on the commitments of the volunteers. I'm angry at people on here who are undermining that right now.

I've worked too hard to have a bunch of purist spoil the punch bitching about FISA.

[peace13]

37. See post 35 n/t

[rg302200]

57. AMEN....my words exactly..

n/t

[rg302200]

58. I am working for Obama

trying to help him carry Ohio...I could give two shits less about FISA, I am more worried about helping my region of the state (S.E) find and keep jobs and decrease the amount of people in poverty. FISA? Whats that to me? Go ahead and let the government listen to me, all they are going to hear is me bitching about how terrible a person Bush is and if I get sent to jail well hell at least I will have three squares a day where as I barely have 2 now!

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Write letters to national campaign

posting here will not help one iota

[dailykoff]

6. Gigantic disappointment, and so pointless.

The symbolic plays to the "center" I can see. But warrantless wiretapping? And for WHAT? To let Bush and Cheney off the hook, even while claiming in his completely dishonest statement two weeks ago that he planned to seek justice?

Even if it wasn't the huge blunder I think it probably was, it was a major FU to anybody that's been paying attention, and that's his base.

:wtf:

[sellitman]

7. His win at all costs strategy leaves me behind as well.

He still gets my vote but not with a smile on.

[emilyg]

116. IT troubles me greatly.

[H2O Man]

8. Perhaps

as you spend time with your young children, you will find that motivation again.

[crankychatter]

9. you were motivated?

all I ever see is snark

[AllentownJake]

13. Alot of former "motivated" supporters the past few days

I always wonder how many doors they've knocked on or calls they have made.

You never know if motivated means motivated to action or motivated to watch Hardball and discuss it on the internet.

[peace13]

24. You can be sure that some of them are out there.

The look on the faces of our young people at campaign headquarters let's me know that they are concerned as well. This is making our job as volunteers even harder.

[AllentownJake]

28. I'm out there

and I'm finding very few if any problems.

You see what you want to see and I see what I want to see and somewhere in the middle is probably the truth.

[peace13]

35. That being the case you don't have to slam people that are

having legitimate problems with the candidate at this time. I know that I have to continue to work like a dog to get Obama in the WH. I do not stop working!!!! But I can grieve for the uncertainty of how he will actually honor his word when he takes office. I can have concerns for his disregard for the Constitution in yesterday's vote. Personally, I think we need a space here where volunteers can relate issues and bolster each other.

[John Q. Citizen]

50. You will find out soon enough. By then you will wonder how you could have missed it while it was

going on around you.

One thing you might do, if you are really interested, is to call up Obama offices and ask them. Ask if there are people who are expressing disappointment with Obama who used to be highly motivated, but now seem less so.

Try it and report back to us.

Or, you can just hope that's not the case.

Here's the url for the largest group of Obama supports at Obama's own website. This might be a clue.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA

If you recall, when Hillary's campaign went south, it was very apparent to everyone except Hillary's strongest most loyal supporters. They were in complete denial. Anyone at all who questioned the campaign strategy was suspected of not being a "real" supporter.

If you have no idea what the impact of Obama's change of stance on FISA is, then my guess is you aren't in your local Obama office very often. I know the Missoula office manager Starla Gade is aware of the impact. Call her if you want. I'm sure you can find the number. You can reach her after 9am.

My take is that for some volunteers FISA hasn't made one whit of difference. For other people it has made a profound difference. And everyone else is somewhere else between those two poles.

I used to be excited and motivated about Obama. Now instead of being excited and motivated about Obama, I just don't want McCain to win. Do you see the difference? And it's a difference that makes it almost impossible to send me out to the doors or put me on the phones any longer.

My Obama story has gone from inspirational to 'well, he's better than McCain, that's for sure.' And that isn't very motivating at the doors or on the phones, or tabling, or at volunteer organizing meetings. Maybe I can do some data entry later in the campaign because I don't like McCain. That way I don't have to lie or be a hypocrite and can still work against McCain. But that's about it. I no longer feel motivated to work for Obama

[AllentownJake]

52. Quick Question

If Obama is so bad why would he allow critism of himself on his own website.

Do you think McCain or Bush would allow that?

Just curious if your worried about him taking what you think seriously.

[AllentownJake]

53. I don't spend much time in the office

BTW

I don't like the office or sitting in it.

I spend most of my time right now at fairs registering voters and volunteers.

The only people saying nasty things are Repukes and haven't heard one thing about FISA.

[John Q. Citizen]

77. FISA is just about 2 weeks old. And the vote was yesterday. So were you at a fair last weekend?

Good for you, if you were.

BTW, I think it's great that Obama welcomes dissent on his site.

I doubt Hitler would. Or McCain. Or even Putin Or ????

But that's not really the point.

The point is that Obama switching his position on FISA is bad for Obama and it's bad for the country. So what can we do to make things better for Obama and for the country?

Got any good ideas?

[AllentownJake]

84. Pass something new in February 09

like Feingold said.

I was out in a GOP dominant township but we still got a good response.

[John Q. Citizen]

85. But Obama's numbers are taking a hit now. Rassmusan has him down

to leading by three points, the lowest he's been since June 20th. Gallop has him leadiong by 2 points.

My gut tells me his switch on FISA is the primary cause, although it's what I would call FISA + By that I mean people go, wow, I really don't like that he switched his position and voted with bush and the Repos on Fisa. Not only that but... (Here you can take your pick, mix and match - DP, faith based, guns, whatever) None of the mix and match are particular strong enough on their own to shake any body's view point, but in conjunction with FISA they are much more salient.

As I said, what do we do about both the fact that FISA is bad public policy AND it's bad for his campaign?

[AllentownJake]

86. I see it as

being spent 3-1 on ads by the GOP and the fact that 5-7% of the country (more than that) are too stupid to know where they stand politically on anything and vote for what's popular at any given time. Sad thing is that dumb 5-7% swings elections

[John Q. Citizen]

89. Where do you get your 3-1 figure from? I live in MT and Obama has ads but none for McCain.

I do know a good ground game (gotv) can move the final by about 4%.

[AllentownJake]

96. PA

I've seen 3 McCain or GOP ads for every Obama ad.

[John Q. Citizen]

97. The Rassmusan numbers are national. Obama is on in 18 states, McCain in 11 and the RNC is in PA

about energy.

Hard to say who is spending more right now, but my bet is they are similar.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. For some of us it has become a moral choice

in a very sick system

Thank you for getting it

[John Q. Citizen]

74. What truely amazes me are some of the replies down thread. Instead of these

people being out registering voters, phone banking, raising money, organizing volunteers, knocking on doors, these supposed Obama supporters are bashing the OP because she doesn't feel particularly motivated to do these activities anymore since Obama switched positions on FISA and telecom immunity and voted with the bush administration.

One would think if these people found Obama inspiring, they would be out working to elect Obama instead of wasting time bashing another person who is feeling less than inspired.

The irony of this is entirely lost on all of these folks.

I find it absofuckinglutly amazing. Are these people insane, or do they actually believe posting this stuff to DU is somehow helping Obama?

Their idea of supporting Obama is bashing someone instead of working to elect Obama. This is a sick system, and it's made a lot of people sick.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. On a more general observation, this is the reason why people are not in the streets

right now


Hey I can cyber protest in the comforts of my home

You got it

[John Q. Citizen]

76. Seen the latest Rasmussan numbers? FISA maybe already starting to hurt Obama

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6481579&mesg_id=6481579

[chefgirl]

106. Oh really?

Their idea of supporting Obama is bashing someone instead of working to elect Obama

Really?? Well, I'll tell you what...MY idea of supporting Obama is VOTING for him. Anything more than that is a wonderful thing to do for a candidate, but real support only matters in November.

I wonder how many of the young people he inspired to believe will now be taking another look and him and saying, as young people will easily do, "oh, fuck him, he's just another politician like the rest of them".

Beyond that, as I asked in another thread (and haven't yet read a satisfactory answer to), what would it have cost him to stand with the constitution rather than capitulate? A lot less than his Aye vote is going to cost him, I think.

-chef-

[EFerrari]

113. mod mom is one of the hardest working people at DU

and she has been for years.

You would know that if you were paying attention.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Obama will win, even without your help.

Stay home and spend time with the kids. Network with people of like-mind. And put those politician telemarketers on caller block.

[Saturday]

12. I hear you. nt

[merh]

15. Read this article

this perspective might help you realize that you have been played
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6473419&mesg_id=6473419

Our constitution is still alive.

Oh, this will help you too, if you want to consider the practical aspects, the rule of law and the application of the law.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3586356

[mod mom]

38. Thank you. I read them but I also carefully listened to Turley, Feingold, Leahy &

others who I have trusted that say this is an attack on our 4th amendment. Why has everything been handed to an illegitimate president who didn't keep this country safe in the first place? and who turned his back on the culprits? and has shown little regard for rule of law, politicized the justice system, and has trampled the constitution?

[merh]

44. I have my doubts about your claim as to having read them.

Tell me what the salon article is about and how it impacts the law as passed.

LOL, it's easy to allow others to think for you, it is easy to condemn - it is more difficult to actually use critical thinking.

[mod mom]

49. Just because a Judge rules against a * policy doesn't mean he won't circumvent the ruling:

example in recent news:

U.S. Blocks Payments To ACLU Attorneys Working At Guantanamo Bay
By Andrew Tilghman - July 8, 2008, 5:46PM
From the Miami Herald:


GUANTANAMO BAY NAVY BASE, Cuba -- The U.S. government is blocking the American Civil Liberties Union from paying attorneys representing suspected terrorists held here, insisting that the ACLU must first receive a license from the U.S. Treasury Department before making the payments.

ACLU director Anthony Romero on Tuesday accused the Bush administration of "obstruction of justice" by delaying approval of the license, which the government argues is required under U.S. law because the beneficiaries of the lawyers' services are foreign terrorists.

"Now the government is stonewalling again by not allowing Americans' private dollars to be paid to American lawyers to defend civil liberties,'' Romero said.



http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/us_blocks_payments_to.php



gotta run...a non response by me is not a concession.

Justices: Gitmo detainees can challenge detention in U.S. courts


http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/12/scotus/

[merh]

55. See, you are missing the points

It is not about any law, as the judge ruled the other day, GWB violated the law when he ordered the monitoring (If you actually read the article you will see the reasoning of the court and know what it means to the new FISA). This admin has circumvented, ignored and blatantly violated the law. It doesn't matter what law is written, how finely it is crafted, how loudly it is championed by the ACLU, this admin violates the law and the folks that are supposed to investigate and prosecute the violations are their flunkies, are under their direction and control.

So yes, it is about "eyes on the prize" - getting them out of office with no chance of one of their own taking their place. Its about giving the senate a greater majority and electing folks to the house that are not as middle of the road or wishy washy as many in the house are now.

The 4th amendment is protected in that FISA law, that is obvious if you read the law which is also explained in the article by Halperin I linked you to.

[Olney Blue]

17. Has Senator Obama explained his vote? I don't understand it either.

[CreekDog]

18. well that's the way the cookie crumbles

i assume you also couldn't volunteer for Kerry because he voted for the Iraq War, which was carried out in semi constitutional fashion at best.

i assume you couldn't volunteer for Bill Clinton because of DOMA.

[dailykoff]

22. Did you ever read 1984?

Well Obama just voted to make Orwell's nightmare our reality.

[CreekDog]

23. not really

there was nothing in there about putting spy tv's in our houses.
:rofl:

[peace13]

27. AAAAAAAAA...

I think that they are already there. Do you have a cell phone or cordless phone? There you have it.

[CreekDog]

30. yes they are filming me and gave me a gf to spy on me

:rofl: :eyes:

[dailykoff]

31. If your gf worked for the DHS and decided you were aiding terrorists

what do you think she would do?

[CreekDog]

39. you aren't convincing me

:tinfoilhat:

[mod mom]

36. Have you bothered to listen to Jonathan Turley or Russ Feingold about the significance?

Jonathan Turley on FISA on Countdown:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dotDveXReM8

real funny! :wtf:

[CreekDog]

40. Turley supported Clinton impeachment, no?

i don't always agree with Turley. it's not automatic.

[mod mom]

46. Clinton lied repeatedly under oath. Is it as serious as bu$h? Absolutely not, but

that doesn't belittle the case Turley makes against this egregious disregard for the 4th amendment, the significance of the FISA legislation and bush's overall criminal offenses.

[H2O Man]

47. President Clinton

also worked with radical republicans in Congress to do severe damage to habeas corpus. Yet he was better for the country than either Bush the Elder or Bob Dole. Likewise, Barack Obama is a far better choice for President than John McCain.

[mod mom]

63. H20 Man-I fully intend to vote for Obama, my point is

that I lost my enthusiasm to hit the streets and convince others. I canvassed in low income Af Am precincts in '04 encouraging voters that that time (as opposed to the disenfranchisement of 2000) the party would fight for their votes. Where was the party (outside of Conyers, Boxer and a few others)? I hold the constitution to be above politics as a negotiating tool or a political strategy to win. I feel that Obama is another politician will to forgo the oath he swore (upholding the constitution) to justify the ends. All we get is excuses. Rove today failed to appear regarding his subpoena, just like Ken Blackwell and others who feel they are above the law. I've had it with capitulation. I'm angry and feel used right now.

Clinton did a lot to slay the ground work for the Republicans-the Telecom Act of '96 (think media consolidation) comes to mind. I'm tired of Dems appeasing the people who are undermining our constitution and what is best for the people.

[H2O Man]

126. At some time

or another during the 2008 election season, each one of us will have the experience of doubt -- including doubt about the candidates, doubts about the value of our efforts, and doubts about the future of this country. That's to be expected. And it is further prrof, I believe, that all of life imitates the sport of boxing: there is a reason why there is a 1 minute rest period in between the 3 minute rounds.

One of the greatest enemies of progress is when doubts keep us from engaging in that next round of activity. Please keep in mind that the measure of value of your investment in the elections is far found in the candidates, than in your children's future.

[CreekDog]

48. but it means the name "Turley" does not automatically suggest I should agree

that's my point.

[mod mom]

64. I posted a link to his explanation. I never said I relied on his name alone.

Perhaps if you listened to his reasoning you'f understand why I (and many others) are greatly troubled by his vote.

[CreekDog]

93. i did listen to his reasoning

but i think as solid as his legal knowledge is, he actually leaps to hasty conclusions about what's really intended and why it's intended. it basically becomes speculation. speculation from a scholar is something to pay attention to, but it's still speculation, rather than a conclusive legal judgement.

[LVjinx]

120. And what are your legal qualifications?

[Alexander]

98. Feingold said to support Obama and hope he'll change it in January...

Why aren't you listening to Feingold? He did more to stop this bill from going through than you did, that's for sure.

[mod mom]

32. In fact...

I stepped away from my business & organized a 300+ GOTV volunteer Kerry/Edwards (and I was a Dean supporter) group in my community that reached out and covered nearby low income AF AM precinct GOTV activities as well. I travelled around Ohio to support field staff in working rallies. I set up election day GOTV site locations at union halls around central Ohio. I organized visibility events around my community, registering voters and signing up new volunteers for the campaign.

For Obama, I canvassed, phone banked and worked in HQ before the primary and then returned to staff the HQ 4 days/week after field staff moved on. I organized a 3 day summer festival voter registration drive tabling event. I am also working on voter protection for the state Dem Party(-which I intend to continue to do).

I came to DU in the first place to draw attention to a post election "Fight for Democracy" Rally I helped organize after the '04 election.

I don't just come here and shoot off my mouth- I practice what I've preached.

[CreekDog]

42. i'm sure you do

and i assume you couldn't have volunteered for FDR either, correct? or Lincoln?

[peace13]

45. Face it

At DU volunteering and making sacrifices for candidates means nothing to 90% of the folks. Their activism ends and the end of their fingertips and rarely moves beyond this forum. Too sad and very disgusting. Keep up the good work. I feel your pain. My head wants to just let this thing ride but my heart says that I have to work like hell because I will have a lifetime to regret. Take care. Kim

[John Q. Citizen]

62. Thanks for walking the walk.

[BeyondGeography]

20. Good...tell your kids why a right-wing Supreme Court, shite health care and gutted education

programs will be good for their futures while you're at it.

:thumbsup:

[CreekDog]

25. of course good appointments to the courts could declare this kind of thing unconstitutional

but you might as well give up now. :eyes:

[merh]

33. Hell chances are the courts hearing the litigation now will do that

Oh, and you can bet that if the AG does that "blanket" certification saying the monitoring is legal and the telecoms are safe, the Court ruling discussed in this thread will be cited by the Plaintiffs that the certification is wrong and the court review is essential as there is not substantial evidence to support the certification.

This thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3586356

Suing George W. Bush: A bizarre and troubling tale

U.S. officials went to extremes to stifle our legal challenge to Bush's warrantless surveillance -- but a federal judge says the program is criminal, anyway.

By Jon B. Eisenberg

Jul. 09, 2008 | On July 3, Chief Judge Vaughn Walker of the U.S. District Court in California made a ruling particularly worthy of the nation's attention. In Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation Inc. v. Bush, a key case in the epic battle over warrantless spying inside the United States, Judge Walker ruled, effectively, that President George W. Bush is a felon.

Judge Walker held that the president lacks the authority to disregard the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA -- which means Bush's warrantless electronic surveillance program was illegal. Whether Bush will ultimately be held accountable for violating federal law with the program remains unclear. Bush administration lawyers have fought vigorously -- at times using brazen, logic-defying tactics -- to prevent that from happening. The court battle will continue to play out as Congress continues to battle over recasting FISA and possibly granting immunity to telecom companies involved in the illegal surveillance.

[PDittie]

26. The 4th Amendment is a deal-killer for me

A constitutional law professor voting for this bill is just hideous. Taking an oath to uphold the Constitution and then voting for this bill is a travesty.

The really sad part is he would have lost nothing by voting for it. It was going down anyway. In that respect it was tailor-made for a Senator to simply to vote their conscience. He was afraid to be painted "soft on terror" in the general; that's the only reason.

I'm sick of this chickenshit response on the part of any Democrat every time someone points and yells "cut-and run"!

The various political calculations Obama has made in moving toward the center do not seem to be giving him anything in the polling. He's losing in Missouri, Nevada, Georgia (even with Barr in the race) and Florida again:

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Undervoting the presidential where I live -- a red-ass state going Puke no matter what -- frees up my conscience as well as my time, energy, and money.

It's the same reason why I'm canceling my landline with AT&T and my cell service with Cingular. You gotta send a message somehow.

[CreekDog]

94. my understanding of the constitution is that Congress cannot overrule an amendment

with a simple majority vote on leglislation.

[Buck Rabbit]

107. How does a statue that expands oversight and protections beyond

the existing case law attack the constitution?

You seem to be unaware that FISA was a civil liberty inspired statute passed by a Democratic controlled congress and signed by Democratic president to give oversight and protections of privacy greater than what was the established rule of law at that time and much greater than the current interpretation of Border Search Exclusion to the 4th Amendment.

Without FISA it is almost certain that the courts would rule on phone calls as they have on everything else, that any person, thing or communication including sealed mail that crosses the border may be searched by Customs(Homeland Security) at their random discretion without warrant, cause or suspicion.

George Bush's wire taps on international calls were not illegal because they were in violation of the 4th Amendment, they were illegal because he violated the FISA statues.

[mckeown1128]

34. Tell me now is the constitution going to be protected when

McCain finishes turning the Supreme Court into a conservative think tank?

I rest my case.

[PurgedVoter]

51. K&R NT

[TexasObserver]

54. So, you're quitting because Democrats have disappointed you.

Think it out. Who benefits by your action? Who are you helping by taking this approach?

Is it Bush? Is it McCain? Is it the Republican party?

God, if only there were that perfect politician who is right on every issue AND who can actually get elected with that kind of approach. If you have kids, you have a duty to think long term, for their benefit. Do you really want to explain to them that we lost the Supreme Court and with it the Bill of Rights because Mommy got mad about the FISA bill?

This is not about YOU. It's not about ME. It's not about any of US. It's about the country and how we can best keep it from falling headlong into fascism. Guess what? The rich and powerful will always have more stroke with congress than the good folks. That's not going to change.

"If I can't have things my way, I'm not doing anything" is a frame of mind adults can't afford to have.

[LVjinx]

121. It helps, sometimes, to read what people say before replying.

[followthemoney]

56. I still support Obama. His leadership is inspiring. YES WE CAN!

I will support him and adapt my speech to align with his position of the day. He is my "Pope". He is infallible.

To those who say it is too hard to zig when he zigs and zag when he zags,I say have faith. I say, "Yes, we can".

I think I may be being ironic. I'm so confused. Irony is so hard to distinguish these days.

[John Q. Citizen]

80. You made me laugh. Thanks!

[rg302200]

59. So because your candidate doesn't support every single issue

That you do your not going to help him? Yea that sure does help the down ticket now doesn't it? BTW there is no Democrat out there that truly shares 100% of my views, although Obama and Sherrod Brown come close. But just because they don't doesn't mean I am going to piss on them because my feelings are hurt. The overall philosophy of the Democrat party means that we accept every dem no matter what their views are because we want to work to make the lives of people better.

Does McCain share those same views?

[Overseas]

60. Yes but you need to start THREE MORE NEW THREADS about your reservations.

You don't want to join in with the TEN OTHER EXISTING THREADS about how much you value the constitution but you'll hold your nose and get over it. Those threads with very earnest people discussing very similar feelings and deep convictions just don't count. Better start a new one.

[MGKrebs]

61. Would someone PLEASE tell me what the alternative was?

From what I understand, if they didn't pass this (or something like it) we would have reverted to the 30 year old FISA statute, which is even worse.

Was there another choice that I missed?

[Breeze54]

72. Read this:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Feingoldon_on_FISA_A_dark_hour_0709.html

There's even a video there, if you don't want to read the article.

[MGKrebs]

73. Thanks. It's unfortunate, but it's a classic "between a rock and a hard palce"

scenario.
Couldn't get the votes to pass a good bill, but needed to avoid reverting to the old bill. Nasty.

[John Q. Citizen]

79. The old bill was fine. Also, it didn't have immunity for the telecoms. bush and the

telecoms broke the old law (bill)

That's why they are so hot on getting the new law (bill) so that they can get away with their crime without anyone even knowing to what extent they broke the law. In other words, who was illegally snooped on, why were people illegally snooped on , etc.

[MGKrebs]

82. The old bill was not fine.

[John Q. Citizen]

83. What did you object to?

[MGKrebs]

91. Did not anticipate global communications infrastructure.

Are they only supposed to have access to phone records from known terrorists using phones from specific locations? Good luck.

Did not anticipate data mining. Are we not allowed to have computers scan for key words or phrases that fit a pattern in a database? No one is really listening in to those conversations, but certain conversations should trigger a warrant. Not allowed under old law because it wasn't anticipated.

Some of these tools are certainly useful, but must be used in a responsible way. Without FISA, they either couldn't be used at all or would be outside of any oversight since they aren't covered at all.

[followthemoney]

103. The old FISA law wasn't any good any more.

Bush broke it. That is a damn shame. He breaks everything he gets his hands on. That's why we need a new FISA law.

He even broke the checks and balances. The constitution looks like it's broke too. It looks like we need a new constitution to replace the broken one.

When somebody comes around breaking things the way he does, I think somebody should ask him to leave. I don't think it's a good idea to just hide from somebody like that and just hope he'll go away by himself. He seems very dangerous. Everybody is afraid to talk to him about his behavior. I think we should get a committee together just like in that story where the mice tied a bell on the cats tail. At least we could put the important things away when he is around so he can't break even more stuff.

We should get a group of the smartest and strongest people to tell him to be nice and that we mean it. I don't think those people who keep on making new laws every time he breaks the old one are being very brave. They should ask for the smart and brave people to help them to make him stop breaking things.

[John Q. Citizen]

105. Maybe somebody brave like Dennis Kucinich can slip a straight jacket on him.

[blondeatlast]

65. Good for you.

You wanted someone to agree with you, right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Write him a letter, and let him know

I know mine is going on the post today


And yes I am telling him essentially the same thing

He lost the money and a volunteer...

[Catherina]

71. He already got my money but I let him know he lost a very good volunteer

It was his choice. It's not like we didn't make if very clear.

[cbc5g]

88. ** McCain approves that message **

[LVjinx]

122. Why would McCain approve people sending money to Obama?! Reading comprehension here sucks.

[peace13]

90. Good luck with the letter.

I have not received more than the standard email back saying that they are too busy to comment. I will be interested to see what response you get.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. I told them not to bother... it is going straight to the shredder

their actions are louder than words...

That is the truth, and I let the poor Obama volunteer who called for money this morning have it as well

Feel sorry for them actually, they are paying for this

[mod mom]

100. Why this bothers me so much is that we've had 2 stolen elections, the e-voting machines in place and

Dems are giving the executive branch more power. What if another election is stolen? Can we really afford to assume the will of the people will be represented in the outcome of the election? The media is already laying the ground work using reluctant Hillary supporters.

No more power-it time for the Dems to dish out a little justice to *, Cheney, Rove and others.

[DevonRex]

69. Then perhaps you should post about issues in GD if you aren't

into the presidential race anymore. I'm not saying you have to, of course. Just that maybe that's where your heart is right now. And maybe it's where you can feel you're being productive and can turn a negative into a positive.

[Blue_In_AK]

81. Find yourself progressive candidates down ticket to work for.

That's what I'm doing, and it is so much more satisfying. I know my candidate, I volunteered for her in 2006 (when she lost, sadly) and again this time around, and I am confident that she stands for what she believes in. As someone has said, the woman has a titanium spine, which is exactly what we need right now.

http://www.bensonforcongress.com/

[cbc5g]

87. Obama said he would support a filibuster - there wasn't enough support for one

So get over yourself and let's get Obama elected.

He's not the messiah, sorry you are disappointed.

[vaberella]

109. I know. It's like people thought he could just do it when he gets there. There's a vote on that

too.

Fuck. People complain over everything without gathering the data.

[depakid]

110. So that means just give up and capitulate?

That doesn't inspire much hope or give one faith in a candidate's sincerity or leadership.

If, as some have rationalized, this was a calculated reversal, then loss of motivation and enthusiasm such as the OP expressed must have been part of the equation.

[vaberella]

111. No one has said such a thing.

Have you read the bill and can give language from the bill to support your claim? I'm not asking for a link from a "law scholar" but real language, and if it's from a "law scholar" one where they give the exact article and why it is bad? If you can't find me one with the EXACT language for the bill or you can't provide yourself don't you think you should read the bill yourself? and defend your points with the EXACT language of the bill.

This is irrespective of rationalization but actually educated knowledge.


Now that being said. Obama's position wasn't wrong. He himself even answered the debate today by saying that he supported it because it actually takes power away from the President and anyone in Congress, but actually puts it in the hand of the FISA Committee, so warrants need to be issued on providing evidence. You can actualy find that in the bill itself. That in itself throws out this warrantless bullshit. Just by doing that it actually takes out the PAA/PA which actually stole our rights when written. Get it?!

And maybe unlike you and since I live in NYC and have lived here all my life, lets just say that I'm all for support of survellience as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights and it actually doesn't. However it does on persons who are not US citizens/residents---but they are not under US jurisdiction or laws in the first place.

[depakid]

117. "Obama's position wasn't wrong?"

The ONLY way one can rationally believe that is if they think that corporate accountability under the law should be retroactively excused after they've engaged in tortious conduct, harming American citizens.

It's one thing to insulate corporations from liability for their behavior (which, IMO is also wrong) or to make it much more difficult for ordinary Americans to seek redress for injuries in court (which Obama and the usual suspects did the so called Class Action "Frairness" Act in early 2005) -but to absolve the guilty after the fact is quite another.

That's not only craven, but may well violate the "Takings Clause" of the 5th and 14th Amendments by in essense "seizing" citizens' property (by law, a vested right of action is personal property). That'll be an interesting issue for the courts. Will compensation be required and will Uncle Sam pick up the tab for the Telecom's widespread and illegal activities?

Without discovery, how will we know the extent of the conduct and what the claims are worth?

This in addition the the 4th Amendment issues that have already been discussed in other threads.

[elizm]

92. Then I will work twice as hard to make up for your loss. nt

[ReverendDeuce]

95. IBTL... n/t

n/t

[BlueStater]

112. Huh? Why would this post be locked for? n/t

[LVjinx]

123. For daring to say something they don't like hearing.

[indepat]

101. Those voting for the blatant disregard for the Constitution and Rule of Law violate not only their

oaths of office, they are worse than traitors imo. Moreover, anyone who was influenced to vote for FISA due to contributions received is not only a political whore, but a cheap political whore, again imo. But we can all take comfort that if there are not at least five traitorous whores on the high court, the unconstitutional provisions will likely be struck down. :D

Edited to add last sentence

[GoldieAZ49]

102. The majority of those elected are never going to vote to limit or take away power

It just isn't going to happen.

Would you vote to limit yourself in your chosen career?

See what I mean? In college I was going into social services, I wanted to help people and make a difference to those that need someone. However, I learned that when working in the field you cannot tell people how to 'report' what they receive. Example: If you need public assistance they look at what your income is to determine eligibility. If your uncle gives you the money to pay your rent it is considered income. If your uncle pays the landlord directly it is not considered income. As a case worker you are NOT ALLOWED to tell a client in need that without losing your job. Your hands are tied.

The system is set up to work FOR those in power and that is never going to change. No politician is going to surrender power.

[vaberella]

108. Does anyone wait for a law attorney to read them the Constitution?

Did ANYONE who is really upset about the bill read it? Not depend on "law scholars" to read it for them? These lawyers aren't taught to read when they go to law school, I'd like to remind people.

I ask this a lot of people are mentioning the name Feingold, Turley, and various other names. Question, why do people wait for them to read it and tell them what's on it when the paper is written in English and some time and attention might achieve the same knowledge as anyone else. The language is not difficult to understand or over the top. Why do I keep on hearing names being dropped as though an authority?

I have asked this in the past and have never gained a reply. Progressives claim to try to be in the "know" they try to keep up to date as to what is going on. However, when the time came for this bill people just sort of said, well all these people said "no" then that's it.

Everytime they are asked to prove their point with claims from the language of the law, not a SINGLE opposer can give me the EXACT language but just link me more articles of what "other people" say. How lazy and half assed is this? We're progressives right? We're fighting against abuses right? I figured we'd try to learn the language if we're claiming to fight for a cause; not blindly follow a "trusted" leader. Heck that's why I support Obama after Edwards. We learn the government for ourselves and make sure the government follows as dictated, that means WE (the CITIZENRY) know the law as much if not better than our candidates.


When it comes to history sure we depend on sources. But when the information is readily available for scrutiny why not read it for yourself. Are you going to allow someone to dictate to you the Constitution and Bill of Rights?! Hell NO. You can look it up yourself and come up with your own conclusions. Why then drop names as though they are the AUTHORITY? Especially when the information is readily available.

The loud exclamations by so many people that haven't read the bill themselves irks me and I don't think I find them credible as opposers; just uninformed.

[EFerrari]

115. It's "opponents" and yes, there is a reason why people look to Turley.

He is an authority. In the same way reading the bill for yourself is a basic, so is listening to people whose profession it is to read the law.

[BigBearJohn]

114. Amazing how many are willing to give Obama a break on his FISA vote but wanted to crucify Hillary

on her IWR vote. Where was all this "purist" talk when Hillary's head was on the chopping block?

Well, a politician will be a poliician, I guess.

The only reason I will vote for Obama is because he will do more good for the people of the U.S.
than will McCain. (I hope).

We won't know for sure until he gets into office.

[vaberella]

118. I read the FISA. I lost much of my rights with the Patriot Act, which I believe HRC voted "yay".

FISA actually reinstated some of those by actually making the President accountable. That's in the bill.

You can read it online, it's readily available, however there are plenty of quotes of the bill's EXACT language here by MERH's name.

[NattPang]

119. You are keeping my constitutional rights gutted,

by actively not lifting a finger
to defeat John McCain.
You are as bad as those you denounce.

[LVjinx]

124. Sounds like the OPs done a lot. Care to enlighten as to your massive contribution?

[mod mom]

125. Local Obama field staff and Dem Party members know me on a 1st name basis.

Can you say the same?

I've stepped away from my business in 2004 because I believe the state of elections was so serious it needed to be fought for. I've been working on fair, transparent and verifiable elections since then. Would you like to share your contributions?