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Countdown: Russ Feingold on the FISA Capitulation

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 08:02 AM
Original message
Countdown: Russ Feingold on the FISA Capitulation
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. I saw him last night, he was fabulous. The only
disagreement I had was that he thinks we can overturn the FISA bill after Obama is president. Why does he think that Obama will overturn it when he voted for it???
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Obama's own words perhaps.
After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.

It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."

This was not an easy call for me. I know that the FISA bill that passed the House is far from perfect. I wouldn't have drafted the legislation like this, and it does not resolve all of the concerns that we have about President Bush's abuse of executive power.

So basically, he's said repeatedly that he doesn't like the bill, but that the alternative is worse. I know this doesn't carry much weight in the no-shades-of-gray world of the Netroots, where everybody is either a hero or teh eevils, but seriously it's not like he's out there claiming that this is a wonderful piece of legislation and that we should leave it as is.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Psst. They don't actually listen to what he says. They just project
whatever they want onto hope and change and then say he lied. It's a definite pattern here.
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Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. I wish I could rec your last paragraph there. You articulated it perfectly. nt
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. Not surprising the hystericals aren't responding to this. And
Edited on Thu Jul-10-08 09:25 AM by JenniferZ
Feingold is right. This whole thing can be redone after Obama is in office and Obama will sign the new and improved version into law.

End of story.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Did you see this perspective?
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's an excellent piece. Makes me wonder why people are
so outraged.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I look at it this way
If they are truly as outraged as they claim, if this truly concerns them, then they need to start helping those litigating these matters. I would expect huge donations to the ACLU, donations to Feingold, and a fund drive to help defray the legal expenses for those fighting the telecoms now.

I doubt it will happen because it is easier to bitch about what others bitch about (independent thought, crtical, methodical thinking is out the window around here, we are the echo chamber we have always been accused of being). It is easier to run around in fear and outrage than to take action, to actually fight the fight.

What is disturbing is that they don't see how they are being used and they allow this all to distract them from what is important.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I saw that, and have read similar perspectives over the past several weeks. Still,
a lot of Constitutional scholars who make some of those same arguments warn that this is a simplistic view of a bad bill. They also discuss the implications of the bill (law) under a Democratic president.

<...>

Indeed, the fact that Congress is now giving the President the authority to do much of what he was probably doing (illegally) before suggests that Bush's illegal program has to a large degree been ratified by Congress. If you want a historical example, although not a perfect one, it is Lincoln's decision to (illegally) suspend habeas corpus, which was later followed by Congress's ratification of Lincoln's suspension. It is true as a formal matter that Congress has not officially approved of what Bush has done, and it has granted immunity only to the telecom companies, and not to those Administration officials who, in effect, conspired to violate FISA. But at this point I am doubtful that the next Administration will try to prosecute former officials for violating FISA, especially now that Congress has effectively blessed the formerly illegal programs. If this is not a ratification in form, it is surely one in substance.

The lesson is that there are at least two different ways for the executive to increase his power. One is when the President seizes power through unilateral action. The second is when Congress gives it to him. In 2001 Bush chose the first path. In 2008 Congress (controlled by the other party no less!) is offering the second path. In both cases, the executive becomes more powerful. To be sure, the new bill does impose new reporting and accountability requirements. But, as noted before, let's see if the current Administration-- and the next one-- tries to wriggle out of them. The larger point is that two parties are not in fact dividing over the issue of Executive power. Both parties seem to like more and more executive power just fine. They just have adopted different ways of achieving it. One can expect far more Congressional cooperation if a Democratic Congress is teamed with a Democratic President. The effective result may not be less Presidential power to run the National Surveillance State. It may be in fact be more.

I repeat. If you are worried about the future of civil liberties in the emerging National Surveillance State, you should not try to console yourself with the fact that the next President will be a Democrat and not George W. Bush. It's worth remembering that the last Democratic President we had, Bill Clinton, was not a great supporter of civil liberties. (I was therefore amused to see that his wife, Hillary Clinton decided at the last minute to vote against the bill. Good for her, but I have difficulty believing that the choice was a purely principled one). The mere fact that the next President will be a Democrat-- even a liberal Democrat-- is no guarantee that he will work hard to protect civil liberties in the emerging National Surveillance State. It is not enough to say that Obama has taught constitutional law before he became a United States Senator; so did Bill Clinton before he ran for governor of Arkansas.

Democrats (and Republicans) who care about civil liberties should put as much pressure as they can on the next President-- especially if he is a liberal Democrat-- to make sure that he truly respects civil liberties, and that he builds adequate protections into the emerging National Surveillance State. Making a campaign commitment to amend the worst features of the new surveillance bill in the next Administration would be a good start.

link


The fact that this bill will now be signed into law makes it even more critical that the next President is a Democrat, regardless of which course (as outlined above) he chooses.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Actually, there are those that believe the monitoring began under Clinton
But, what the scholars fail to realize is, the courts do take their responsibilities seriously.

See this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3586356

Congress cannot pass laws that infringe upon our constitutional rights even if it is to protect society. SCOTUS' most reason gun control decision should help folks figure that one out.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Also the Military Commissions Act. I think they realize it, but
it doesn't stop states and the Congress from passing laws (that remain intact for years), Presidents from abusing power or the SCOTUS from coming to the wrong decision (here is where it becomes critical that Obama wins. The decisions aren't unanimous and the balance can be tipped depending on who gets to select the next Justice.)

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. The FISA law was violated by Bush.
Hell, the shits have been violating the constitution with great regularity, they don't need no stinking bill to do it. That judges opinion from yesterday is encouraging, I need to find if it is published and read it.



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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. COME ON ALL YOU "DEMCRACY IS DEAD" PEOPLE! WHERE ARE YOU?!
:rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not sure I understand why that is funny? n/t
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Because, Feingold is saying while this is a dark hour, it will be undone once OBAMA is elected
He feels that Obama is the only person who can restore the consitution at this point.

Obama has been relentlessly attacked here as one who has participated in "destroying the constitution" and "killing democracy".

Obviously Feingold doesn't agree with those people.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Again, that's a great argument. If people who are paying attention to this are
truly outraged by Bush's policies, this could be a move than reinforces the talking point: Obama must be elected, he is the only one that will undo the damage.

This argument is based on Obama being elected so he has to win.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. Even Feingold says Obama can fix it.
But we can't fix a lost election. The bill was going to pass, there weren't enough votes for a filibuster, and Obama made the smart move under the circumstances.
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