To the purists: You would fail Obama for giving you 95% of what you want?

[Zynx]

You don't deserve him. I say this as someone who did not even support Obama in the first place, but I have since loyally given money and will campaign for him in my state.

I do these things first because I realize that Obama will move the country in the direction that is best for it, and secondly because virtually 100% of what McCain wants will slide this country further into the abyss with the same policies that have ruined us for all of these years.. In many ways McCain is worse than Bush while Obama is probably the closest to what we have wanted on important issues in many years.

If you choose to grade on the worst curve ever and call a 95% an F, you deserve what you get:






You deserve it, but the rest of us don't and neither does this country.

[rudy23]

1. I would, but the FISA capitulation is worth more than 5%

The Fourth Amendment is pretty much the foundation of freedom, and Obama yawned as it was trampled. It's not encouraging, to say the least.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. The 4th amendment got trampled long ago. Were you paying attention?

The police can stop you to see if you're wearing a seatbelt or have had a drink.

They can stop you because of the color of your skin.

The government can seize your property because drugs were found on it.

Your employer can demand a urine sample from you.

Etc.


FISA schmisa.

[rudy23]

75. So two wrongs make a right?

The logic here...I'm not getting it.

[AZBlue]

65. Get real. It was trampled on A LONG time ago.

Don't be petty or stupid about this - the future of our country's riding on it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I highly doubt he'll give me anywhere near that percentage, but I am capable of holding my nose. BUT

my gut feeling is the GOP will steal it for McCain in the end.

[JuniperLea]

5. My guts are churning in that direction too...

I'm betting FISA is going to bite Obama in the ass... I'm betting BushCo is going all Watergate on him as we speak.

[AZBlue]

66. The attitude in your post will help the GOP right into the White House.

You can make a difference but you don't seem to want to.

[GreenPartyVoter]

73. Right. Election theft will have nothing to do with it.

[Zynx]

77. Thanks to people like you, they won't need it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

81. I'm already voting for Obama instead of my own party's candidate. That smarts far more than your

little digs.

[Zynx]

82. Then perhaps you should keep your fire on McCain instead of Obama.

[GreenPartyVoter]

83. What fire? Where have I fired on Obama?

[PVnRT]

3. What is with this "purist" strawman anymore?

How many of the people angry about FISA (or something else) have said that they now refuse to support Obama? Or is this all in the minds of those who would prefer dissenting opinions not be typed.

[Zynx]

6. No This isn't about FISA. This is about the constant bitching on almost everything

even when they are very small points of disagreement. It also refers to the fact that so many people now say they won't give money or campaign as hard for the campaign. Fuck them.

[JuniperLea]

9. Quite frankly, the whining about it is getting a lot more play than the

"bitching" as you call it.

If you quit giving people the chance... quit baiting them with bullshit threads like this... you might see a reduction in said bitching.

:eyes:

[Zynx]

19. No, no I won't. These people need to be called out on this B.S.

There have been people who totally flipped out over the faith-based initiatives issue as well as gun control without even really looking at the entirety of the issue.

In terms of FISA, I realize why he voted the way he did to avoid the Republican smear machine over being weak on terrorism. Under different circumstances, I'm sure he would have voted against it. However, I trust him if he is president to respect our civil liberties. I can't say the same for Johnny Mac, who so many on this board seem keen on helping by keeping the fire on our candidate instead of on him.

[frylock]

this is ALL about FISA..

and the cavilier attitude toward the 4th ammendment here on this board is fucking appalling. i'll vote for your precious candidate, but don't fucking even pretend that his vote didn't mean shit.

[Zynx]

13. Did you even read the first line of my post. He wasn't my candidate originally, but

I realize what happened on this issue. The Republicans were going to crucify him on it and he could have never stopped the bill anyway.

[atreides1]

25. Guess What

The Republicans are still going to crucify him, regardless of how he voted on FISA.

[azmouse]

51. The RW doesn't need help when it has the hysterical people on the Left doing it's work.

[Lautremont]

28. But the Republicans were going to crucify him anyway, on something.

So now it'll be flip-flopping, which has proven to work for them in the past. "Soft on terror" attacks are clearly running out of steam. Conclusion: Obama should have stuck to his guns on FISA.

[Zynx]

33. 35%-45% still believe another terrorism attack is right around the corner.

That line of attack still has some punch in it.

[Lautremont]

41. 35%-45% believe what they're told.

Obama is in a position to tell them something. That's a pretty strong argument for maintaining your integrity.

Look, Obama's vote is indefensible from both a policy and an electioneering point of view. It's all right to be upset with him.

[JuniperLea]

44. You're right... and consider that BushCo made up this whole terrorist meme

They don't believe it any more than I do. If 9/11 signaled an age of terrorism, then the culprits should have been brought to justice instead of ignored.

This whole thing is bullshit. They had three full days to report back to the courts that they spied on someone! How is this an impediment to finding terrorists?

Obama would have been better off keeping his integrity. That is the REAL CHANGE we are all looking for anyway!

[PVnRT]

45. "So many people"?

I've seen maybe a half dozen threads with that as the subject, and most were locked with OPers roundly flamed. This is not some epidemic of defection, despite what you want to think.

[AZBlue]

68. A lot.

I can't name names unfortunately, but take a look around on this forum today.

[Saturday]

4. Really?

" first because I realize that Obama will move the country in the direction that is best for it"

Trampling the 4th Ammendment is best for us?

[Zynx]

8. Do you assume I like FISA? I don't.

I realize what the Republicans were going to do with that issue if he lined up against it. We would have terror alerts all summer long and the rightwing would flood the airwaves with people saying how "If only we had those wiretaps we could actually try to stop these attacks."

[JuniperLea]

15. You don't give people enough credit

You don't think people would see right through that, especially when it was predicted for a long time?


Besides, it's just not a wise thing to do! There is no good reason for giving up freedoms or bastardizing the Constitution!


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin




Whatever fucking Kool-Aid is being swilled now is some pretty fucking strong shit and all y'all should back the fuck off!

I cannot believe my eyes when I read crap like this!

[Zynx]

26. I am well versed in that Franklin quote. I also know it is a better idea to keep your fire

mostly on the true enemy in an election rather than jumping all over your own candidate with 90% of your energies trying to sculpt them in your own image.

Franklin conceded on the issue of slavery along with Adams and Jefferson to get the Declaration of Independence through. I think he made a far more grievous concession.

[JuniperLea]

30. I think willfully giving up freedom

Is a slap in the face to those who fought for it on our behalf so long and so hard.

Once you give it up, it won't be so easy to get it back. And you don't see the folly in this? Not at all?

Amazing.

[Zynx]

48. Did you see what I said? Most of our revered political leaders gave up

even more serious issues of personal liberty for the sake of advancing this country one step at a time.

[JuniperLea]

55. Giving up what we already have in the way of liberty is just plain stupid

And it's not the same thing.

[Zynx]

62. By your standard that you were arguing earlier it certainly is.

You are just trying to be difficult. When we are actually in a position to affect policy then we can have the full debate. Until then, this has little more effect than a college lecture hall except that if you sit on your hands McCain will win. You can be assured of that.

Obama's court appointments will protect and expand our liberties. His Justice Department will respect our rights. Do you deny this?

[JuniperLea]

78. I have no crystal ball better than you do...

You have no idea what he will do now.

[AZBlue]

69. FISA's the one and only issue? Really?

Really?

[JuniperLea]

7. Oh stop with the "purist" bullshit

Unless you are suggesting that those who don't feel the need for accountability (and I guess that would include yourself) are less than pure. It's starting to look like there are a lot more "pure" than "un-pure".

[Zynx]

11. I am for holding Obama accountable on this issue IF he makes it to the White House.

Not before. This is little more than theory until he gets in there.

[JuniperLea]

18. WTF? So we absolve everyone of what they say...

Until they are actually holding office? You don't see the folly in that?

[Zynx]

31. Actually, to a great extent, yes. This is politics.

For goodness sakes this isn't a highschool debating club or some computer simulation. This has always been a messy business where idealists and ideologues get hurt.

I'm willing to take the risk that Obama will make the right decisions once in office so we can keep our political energies focused on keeping McCain out. Will you concede that Obama will be far more responsible with that bill than McCain would be? Can you imagine?

[JuniperLea]

40. No, nor was Bush before them!

You don't see the slippery slope at all, do you? You don't see how the whole FISA deal is a bunch of bull to begin with? They had three full days AFTER THE FACT to report on whom they tapped! How is that going to hold anyone up from getting the information needed to avert a terrorist attack?

Besides, you are missing an even greater fact: BushCo made up the whole terrorist meme! And now Obama is furthering this meme!

[Zynx]

46. Terrorism is not a totally made up threat.

Al-Qaeda attacks existed three years before Bush got in there. I don't believe it to a major threat and I disagree that we need to trample on civil liberties to protect against it, but the issue does nothing to lessen my support of Obama.

[JuniperLea]

52. And Bush helped al Qaeda to grow stronger

And you think furthering one of Bush's policies is going to help stamp out terrorists?

Oh, please. We've left the hen house to the wolves, and now the hens look like they are coming down with a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome!!

[atreides1]

34. It's All Theory Right Now

If he makes it to the White House there is no guarantees that this law will be redone! Because, you would still need the votes of those other Demoocrats who voted in favor of it, and a few Republicans to meet that 60 vote standard that is currently in effect!

So, without the guaranteed support of the chronically spineless, this law along with the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act will remain in place as is!

And that is a not a theory, that is a fact.

[cbc5g]

10. ** McCain approves of anti-Obama liberal purists **

[frylock]

12. free republic is a great place to exercise one's blind devotion

[Zynx]

20. They at least understand you should keep most of your fire on the enemy instead

of your own candidate.

[blondeatlast]

14. Some people say it gives him reason to visit the internets--but not while Cindy's around... nt

[Sherman A1]

16. He will get my vote

as I vote a straight Democratic ticket. My money will go to the ACLU to hopefully overturn the FISA bill.

So while I appreciate your lecture.. I can figure this out for myself.

[SidneyCarton]

17. They're not going to listen...

They are in a death spiral of negativity, not realizing that screaming the Constitution as loud as they can, effectively droning out everything else does not make them friends of Constitutionality.

Some are wounded and betrayed and it will take time for them to recover.

Some never wanted the current candidate to begin with, and take gruesome glee from supposed buyers remorse.

Some prefer to lose elections, for the one benefit of perpetual opposition is that it requires zero responsibility.

All I can say is that on January 20, 2009 we as a nation are going to get the government we deserve, whether or not it's the government that would be best for us will depend on how we vote.

[JuniperLea]

21. What a crock of shit

This is exactly what the Republicans want, and you fall for it hook, line and sinker.

You don't see your little diatribe here is right out of the GOP play book? Silencing people by insults is really pathetic.

[SidneyCarton]

85. Ok, enough

I'm obviously a closet repuke, or at least "part of the problem"

Happy now?

:sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

87. Quit making shit up and beating others up with it

Your assumptions would be laughable if this were funny at all.

[azmouse]

22. They're all playing right into the Reps hands.

The Reps goal all along was to divide us. Mission accomplished.

When these so-called Dems have another Rep president I hope THEN they'll be happy.

[atreides1]

42. Mission Accomplished My Ass

Do you have the Republican play book, or are you just making this stuff up? The only missing being accomplished here is providing the Republicans with evidence to show that Democrats do not really believe in free discourse and that winning at any cost while marching in lock step isn't only a Republican "value"

That is the mission being accomplished, congratulations!!

[azmouse]

49. So you like the hysteria on DU right now???

What the hell is it accomplishing but breaking apart this party and helping McBush to win?
Your mission is accomplished.

[JuniperLea]

53. What do you suggest?

Losing our integrity? Following bogus BushCo memes lockstep? And that supports democracy how?

[azmouse]

58. Do you think 1500 or more posts on this subject for the last week

is changing anything?
Don't forget FISA but my gawd people.... while you're all obsessed with one subject the world is moving on and other things are happening.

[JuniperLea]

67. No, I don't

And I'm dead set against this sort of OP hour after hour.

If people really want to focus on something different, they need to start threads thar aren't the same old flamebait.

[azmouse]

71. I agree with you on that.

Some have their own agenda on keeping this one subject at the top of the list.
Sooner or later they'll run out of steam. I just hope they don't do more damage to Obama than his vote did.
I don't think under any circumstances, we can allow McBush to win. He'll make Bush look like an amateur.

[JuniperLea]

80. Agreed

Stifling discussion helps no one, and that is my main concern here on DU. I'm tired of the DU meme that says if you say anything negative about Obama you are helping McCain get elected. I don't care what the situation is. Free speech is one of our remaining freedoms... this week anyway... and I resent the hell out of some DUers trying to make other DUers STFU and offering up bogus GOP meme bullshit in order to try and get that to happen!

I want everyone to do as I did... contact Obama's campaign and tell them what he did sucks to high heaven... his vote didn't make or break the deal... all he managed to do is lower his integrity... and we can't afford that right now!!!

[Zynx]

59. You really think those on DU who want to keep the focus on McCain instead of Obama

are a bunch of amoral opportunists? This is about first winning the election. We have to first win before we can do anything.

[azmouse]

61. No, they think we are marching in lockstep and we hate the Constitution.

I want Obama elected so the Constitution can be restored. All the hysteria here by so many isn't changing anything.
Thank you for trying to get them to focus on what's important but I fear this will either have to play itself out or the mods will have to step in and stop it.

[JuniperLea]

70. You should practice what you preach

Instead of starting yet another FISA thread, especially when it's obvious how these things turn out.

I'm sick of lowering the integrity bar, for any reason. Politics is the least reason for letting go of liberties we already have.

There's a huge difference between letting go of liberties already hard fought and won, and letting go of liberties we're still fighting for.

[mvd]

23. I don't take more than 5% off for FISA

And he's still running at 90%+ for me.

I would have taken off much more if the bill vote was close enough to fail and if he didn't vote for the amendments. Also, it might be politically smart to vote the way he did.

[Zynx]

27. Exactly my point.

If he had also taken center-right positions on the ammendments I would be more suspicious, but I understand what the Republicans were trying to do here to him and, despite what many say, their tap would have worked had he fallen for it.

[rg302200]

24. I am not sending a dime to the ACLU

my money is going to Obama, shit if anything I am donating more now just to piss off all of the FISA cry baby's who feel this one vote was the deal breaker... One VOTE? Give me a fucking break, if you are not going to campaign for, volunteer for or vote for Obama then get the hell out of this forum and go to Free Republic where you belong. I am sure they would love to have you!

[Skip Intro]

35. I'm not going to put any politician above the constitution and my rights protected therein.

It's pretty damn scary that anyone would.

And who the hell made you the gate keeper of this forum?

[Zynx]

47. Then take McCain as your guardian of civil liberties.

See how far he will go with that legislation versus Obama. We have to have power before we can actually do anything about this.

[JuniperLea]

64. What utter bullshit... this smarmy, whiny, "then you can have McCain"

meme is complete and utter manipulative bullshit only worthy of the GOP.

[JuniperLea]

60. Damn straight!

And since when is giving up liberties we've already owned a good thing?

It's a slippery slope... and it is scary as hell that so many here are in lockstep with this meme.

[NYC_SKP]

29. He lost 5% from me for FISA, that leaves 995%

To the purists, the hard work of the rest of us will carry him through:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6482351&mesg_id=6482351

[CrispyQ]

32. 95%?

FISA
Withdrawing from Iraq
NAFTA
Government hand outs to faith based orgs
Placating APAIC

Ok, so Obama is better than McCain. Is it asking too much for our party to put up a candidate that is MUCH better than McCain? Is it asking too much for our party to stop throwing the democratic wing of the democratic party under the bus, knowing we'll continue to vote for them just because they are the lesser of two evils? Is it asking too much for our party to support & defend democratic ideals?

Yes, I guess it is.

[mvd]

Well, my figure is for what I could realistically want

My true wants are less fulfilled, as usual.

[Zynx]

39. Bullshit on the withdrawing from Iraq. 16 months is about as fast as you can do it.

16 months versus 50 or 100 years? I think 16 months is a lot better. NAFTA is a complicated issue, not a simple one. The faith based orgs issues is so small as to be meaningless. I also don't believe Obama is some closet neo-con.

[JuniperLea]

84. Pay attention!

It may take that long, but Obama promised to START the process immediately... now, not so much.

[Marrah_G]

36. Yeah- that's it.......

Whatever.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

37. To far right enablers:

You get the government and the economy you deserve.

Hell, you'd sell your own mother down the river if you thought it might be expedient....

Tell me that's not the story of the past 15 years.

[JuniperLea]

50. Well said...

They don't see how they are falling for the GOP bullshit.

The whole terrorist meme is their bullshit... and what's wrong with advising the courts three days after the fact when you spy on someone? How is that an impediment?

The Kool-Aid just keeps getting stronger... we're all going to end up on our bellies ala Jim fucking Jones because of this inability to stand up for our Constitution, integrity and plain old common sense!

[Zynx]

54. I'm an enabler?

People who keep their fire focused on Obama instead of McCain are doing far more to elect McCain than anyone in his campaign is doing. We are moving in the direction of dismantling Reaganism and this sort of crap before we have even won the election jeopardizes it.

[JuniperLea]

56. You are furthering BushCo policy! Do the math! eom

[Zynx]

63. I do not support the bill that was passed so I really don't see how.

[JuniperLea]

72. Giving someone else a pass is the same thing... eom

[Zynx]

76. And how exactly do you propose we hold Obama "accountable" in the current context?

Is it:
a. Witholding money?
b. Not campaigning?
c. Making a stink that hurts him in the media?
d. Not voting for him?

Any of those will only make the situation worse with a President McCain.

You have such tunnel vision you can't see how you are becoming part of the McCain campaign. You have proven the point of my original post beautifully.

[JuniperLea]

79. You are putting words in my mouth and your choices are ludicrous and stupid

My choice is what I've already done... let him know I don't appreciate his falling into lockstep with BushCo on FISA like this.

I'm suggesting contacting his campaign, not any of the stupid choices you imagined.

His own deeds have hurt his campaign far more than anyone arguing on DU.

[Runcible Spoon]

57. FUCKIN' A depakid!

:applause:

[samsingh]

86. we'll end up with 0 with mcshame

[Lucky 13]

88. It's BIGGER than that. This goes to the very core of what he is about.

Please tell me how giving away our 4th Amendment is change I can believe in?

I DID believe in him. I've been a DIE HARD Obama supporter for some time. But this vote goes against the very core of what he has claimed to be about. Specifically, this goes against his claims that protecting the Constitution is a priority for him. And more specifically, this vote goes against HIS promise to filibuster any bill granting the telecoms immunity.

He broke a promise to us. And a big one.

As far as I'm concerned, every Senator who voted for this bill BROKE THEIR SWORN OATH to uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States - including Barack Obama. And it makes it a little hard to work to get a guy elected who would do that...

Like Jonathan Turley put it on Countdown, I am just utterly ASTONISHED at his stance on this. ASTONISHED. I expected so much more from him. Unlike the rest of those sad sacks of shit in the Senate, I expected him to AT LEAST TRY to protect our constitution... I expected him to show some fucking leadership about something so clearly right and wrong. I expected him to do what he said he would do.

And for many of us naive stupid suckers, the scales are falling off the eyes and for the first time we see him for what he is. He isn't "THE ONE". He's just another slick politician who did the wrong thing because it's politically convenient.

And what a missed opportunity. What a brilliant way to crystallize the difference between Rethugs and Dems. One wants to sell your constitutional rights away to protect criminals and the other is standing up for your rights and holding wrong doers accountable. It would have been a very palatable, easy to understand issue to put to the American people too. But I guess going along is always easier.

As angry as I am right now, I am a realist. The Democrats have Progressives over a barrel. They know it. We know it.

Will I vote for him? Of course. What choice do I have? But MAN do I feel TRICKED. And my meager donation that I had been saving up for him went directly to the ACLU last night instead. And I intend to work as hard as possible to strengthen 3rd party candidates at lower levels in the hope that one day I won't have to get fucked by the Democratic Party and pretend to like it.

[Geek_Girl]

89. What's with the term Purist? It's insulting

I expect the President of the United States whether, Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal or somewhere in between, to uphold, protect and abide by the Constitution. And I know there are many other Americans across party Lines that believe the same thing.

If by Purist you mean a conscientious American citizen, then Ok I'm a purist.


Sorry but throwing the constitution under the bus for political gain is unacceptable to me and should be to you to as well.

However, come November I plan on voting for Obama because McCain is bonkers. But if Obama loses you can bet this will be a major reason.

[Hosnon]

90. I'm certainly still voting Obama but the FISA vote has (perhaps temporarily) tempered

my desire to volunteer for him, donate to him, etc.

The father of a friend of mine once told me:

"The secret to a happy marriage is letting the husband make all of the big decisions and the wife make all of the small decisions. And after the first few years, nothing is a big decision."

It's not necessarily how often I agree with him; what often matters is the substance of the agreement, or, in this case, the disagreement.