I've never seen a dinosaur and I've never met a "Reagan Democrat" either...

[givemebackmycountry]

Indulge me for a minute please.
Thursday is my favorite day of the work week, and it's also my least favorite.
How's that possible?
Most days I work like a 3-11 shift.
Thursdays, I have meetings all day, so I have to be in the office at 8:00 a.m.
That means I'm getting up at 6:00 a.m. and I'm not exactly a morning person.
I DO however like getting off work early, so there's that.

SO...this morning I'm waiting on the coffee to finish and I turn on the "news" namely "Morning Joe" on MSNBC.
What a train wreck this thing is.
Mrs. Bubble, smarmy Scarborough, Barnicle, Pat the Nazi and Willie.
In the first 20 minutes of the show I heard the term "REAGAN DEMOCRATIC" used SIX FREAKING TIMES.
Apparently, if Obama does not get the "REAGAN DEMOCRAT" vote he's toast.
I've been around awhile, I'm 53 years old and I have NEVER once met a "REAGAN DEMOCRAT" in my life.
So, I ask this...
WTF is a "REAGAN DEMOCRAT"?
And who would ever admit to being one?
I know if I ever met one, I would want to smack them up the side of their head, because Reagan was to me a HUGE piece of shit.

"REAGAN DEMOCRAT" you HAVE to be kidding me.
But, according to "Morning Joe" they are one VERY important voting block.
Give me a freaking break.


:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[anonymous171]

1. They forget that Obama gets Eisenhower republicans so it's all balanced out.

[LostinVA]

2. Union memebers who vote GOP -- I have them in my extended family

[Alexander]

4. Same here.

Archie Bunker types. Populist on economics but very conservative on culture war issues.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

18. My poor best friend married into one of these diasterf@uck families...

They closed the Ford plant in Chesapeake, leaving dad and son out on the street and what do they focus on? That there is no way they can vote for Obama because he's black...I'm hoping they lose their houses...

[LostinVA]

29. Deear God -- I think I may be related to their inlaws

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

50. I hope not, they're pretty aweful...

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Very specific demographic

older, mostly white, fly over country folks who worked for Reagan in 1980.

And I am not kidding either when I say they are also blue collar

And yes, I've met one

Hell I also met once a Nixon Democrat... that one was even scarier

[Alexander]

5. They are mostly blue-collar whites who are socially very conservative.

On economics they are usually pretty close to FDR, but any hint of culture war politics (God, guns, gays, etc) and they go ape.

[TexasObserver]

6. "Reagan Democrat" is a marketing fraud.

Guess what? When you nominate a goober like Walter Mondale and he picks a wholly unqualified congresswoman like Geraldine Ferraro as his VP, when they come out in favor of a tax increase, and when the economy is doing fairly well for the incumbent Republican, you're going to get your ass kicked.

We nominated a sorry nominee in 1984, and we got obliterated. They weren't Reagan Democrats. They were independents who couldn't stand our ticket and saw no reason to vote for it. We were left with the coalition that got Mondale his nomination, and that wasn't even all the Democrats.

[Alexander]

7. No, it really isn't.

Ask yourself why we lost places like Michigan and Massachusetts in 1980 and 1984, and you will realize that "Reagan Democrats" really do exist, even if you've never met any.

[TexasObserver]

10. You're wrong. I worked both elections for the party.

We won senate races in 1984, important ones. Why? Because we were running candidates who didn't suck hard, like Mondale did. If the Reagan Democrat had really existed, we would not have won Kerry or Gore's first senate race in 1984.

You've bought into a GOP meme. It ain't true, and never was.

[Alexander]

12. Congrats on your work. Too bad it doesn't help your argument.

"We won senate races in 1984, important ones. Why? Because we were running candidates who didn't suck hard, like Mondale did. If the Reagan Democrat had really existed, we would not have won Kerry or Gore's first senate race in 1984."

1. Our Senate candidates were not endorsing Mondale's "raise your taxes" policy and were in fact running away from it.

2. Our Senate candidates were not running against Ronald Reagan.

3. The "Reagan Democrats" phenomenon began in 1980, not 1984. You're four years off.

The fact is, there are many Archie Bunker-types in this country who are economically populist but socially conservative. Why else do you think gay marriage failed on every ballot in 2004? Why do you think Democrats constantly have to stress how much they love God and don't mind if you own a gun?

Just because you didn't see a Reagan Democrat doesn't mean they don't exist. They do.

What it probably means is that you've been spending too much time around like-minded people.

[TexasObserver]

14. Horse Feathers. More GOP memes that have convinced the gullible.

And the naive.

Which are you?

Reagan Independents won elections for Reagan.

(edited to protect tender eyes, which had never seen the word Horseshit, and were offended by it)

[Alexander]

16. You have no facts to speak of so you resort to vulgarity. Nice.

Let's see some citations to back up your fact-free, profanity-laced rantings, if you have any.

"The work of Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg is a classic study of Reagan Democrats. Greenberg analyzed white ethnic voters (largely unionized auto workers) in Macomb County, Michigan, just north of Detroit. The county voted 63 percent for John F. Kennedy in 1960, but 66 percent for Reagan in 1984. He concluded that "Reagan Democrats" no longer saw Democrats as champions of their working class aspirations, but instead saw them as working primarily for the benefit of others: the very poor, the unemployed, African Americans, and other political pressure groups. In addition, Reagan Democrats enjoyed gains during the period of economic prosperity that coincided with the Reagan administration following the "malaise" of the Carter administration. They also supported Reagan's strong stance on national security and opposed the 1980s Democratic Party on such issues as pornography, crime, and taxes."

Greenberg, Stanley B. Middle Class Dreams: Politics and Power of the New American Majority (1996)

You can either accept that there are people like this in our country, or continue to stick your fingers in your ears. It's up to you.

[TexasObserver]

20. Unlike you, I was there working the elections. Now accuse me of getting my facts wrong.

Some do, and some read. You're a reader. You find something that pleases you, that you agree with, and it becomes your lucky charm.

We lost in 1980 because of (1) Iranian hostages unresolved, and (2) horrific economic circumstances. Anyone who thinks it was because Ronald Reagan was accepted as such a cool dude is simply out to lunch. We got killed in 1980 because we were dealing with foreign and domestic disasters. It wasn't Reagan Democrats. It was people sick of Jimmy Carter and his inability to get either Iran or the economy under control.

We lost in 1984 because the economy was going along pretty good, Reagan had avoided getting the US into a shooting war anywhere, and it was so obvious he was going to win big that no Democrat worth a damn wanted to run. We were left with Mondale, and believe me, we KNEW we were going to get our asses kicked nationwide. That's why those of us who don't believe in fairy god mothers and don't believe in Reagan Democrats focused on the senate races of Gore, Harkin, Simon, and Kerry. We knew we could win senate races, in spite of Mondale being such a drag on the Democratic party.

Now run find another quote someone somewhere wrote, one that you think agrees with you.

[Alexander]

23. You messed up and got your facts wrong. Maybe you should read more.

So much time, in fact, that you forget that people with differing opinions exist.

"Some do, and some read. You're a reader. You find something that pleases you, that you agree with, and it becomes your lucky charm."

Unbelievable. You sure do like to stereotype, facts be damned.

Amazing that you think you know someone based off of an anonymous message board. Almost as amazing as your claim that books and empirical data don't matter.

If you want the truth, I read and work on campaigns. But the truth won't fit into your nice stereotypical world view of me, would it?

You apparently are not a reader, that much is certain. Maybe you need to read more and stereotype less.

"Anyone who thinks it was because Ronald Reagan was accepted as such a cool dude is simply out to lunch."

Oh yeah, "There you go again" sure didn't sway anyone. Right. :eyes:

"We lost in 1984 because the economy was going along pretty good, Reagan had avoided getting the US into a shooting war anywhere, and it was so obvious he was going to win big that no Democrat worth a damn wanted to run, with the exception of Gary Hart. He shot himself in the foot by chasing tail while he was running for president, and he got caught."

Apparently "being there" didn't help you with the facts. Hart got caught with Donna Rice in 1987....AFTER Reagan's re-election!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that you've shown your poor grasp of the facts, I doubt anyone's going to accept "because I was there" as a valid argument from you any more.

:rofl:

In fact it's safe to say that your "arguments" are nothing but hot air and bullshit. You don't read, you don't check your facts - you just assume that people will bow down before your infinite wisdom...because you "were there".

Now run along and volunteer for Obama, so you can pretend you know what you're talking about when you try and lecture people 20 years from now.

:rofl:
Nice try, though.

[Drunken Irishman]

46. Jesus, you're both right!

Reagan Democrats spawned from the fact Walter Mondale was perceived as being an elitst, out-of-touch liberal. That led to the electoral landside in the 1984 election. Blue collar Democrats went over and voted for Reagan, even you can concede this TexasObserver. However, had the Democrats run the right candidate, they would have put those white, working class voters into play...even Alexander can probably concede this.

It's like the chicken and the egg, but you're both right. Reagan Democrats began because Mondale was a piss-poor candidate and they were called Reagan Democrats because they crossed over and voted for Ronald Reagan, not Walter Mondale. You don't win only 40% of the popular vote by keeping most of the Democratic voting bloc and you don't lose that bloc if you nominate someone like Walter Mondale in the first place!

[Alexander]

48. Reagan Democrats were pre-Mondale, another fact TO got wrong.

The phenomenon of Reagan Democrats started in 1980 when Carter lost traditionally Democratic states in the Northeast like Massachusetts and Michigan.

[TexasObserver]

51. Aight. I'll accept your intercession.

But the media use "Reagan Democrats," as if they exist today, just waiting to have the right fairy dust blown on them, causing them to bloom again. You only get Reagan Democrats when you run Mondale Democrats against sitting presidents who are enjoying a good economy.

[Drunken Irishman]

69. Right, Reagan Democrats aren't around anymore.

I mean, most came back with Bill Clinton and never really left, which is why the Democrats have been in every race since 1992. Unlike before, when they got their butts kicked in 1972, 1980, 1984 and 1988.

[wyldwolf]

26. Macomb County, Michigan Democrats: 63% JFK 1960, 66% Reagan 1980

[TexasObserver]

30. Democrats: 40% of the electorate, maybe 45%.

Elections are won by winning your own party AND the middle. We lost the middle in 1980 and 1984. We kept most of our votes. Reagan didn't win because he won Democrats. He won because he won Republicans and Independents.

Our party has a core of about 40% of the population. Just because JFK and Reagan get 20% of the same vote, the middle vote, doesn't mean Reagan is getting Democrats. Besides, they're 20 years apart in time, and during that time, the two major parties moved in new directions regarding race.

Attributing wins to crossover voters is mistaken. It's the middle indies that decide the elections.

[Alexander]

33. Hart: Caught womanizing in 1987, not 1984.

Funny how "being there" didn't help you remember the facts.

[wyldwolf]

36. but the stats say it was 66% of DEMOCRATS who voted for Reagan

[Alexander]

45. Careful. TexasObserver will put you on ignore for posting those pesky facts!

[Alexander]

31. It's a strange day when I find myself agreeing with you.

:hi:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. Reagan Independents is correct. nt

[Hamlette]

8. My dad was a Reagan Democrat. He hated Reagan so bad he never voted for a republican again.

and he was died in the wool GOP up to then. (I know that's not what they mean, but good point. I've never met one the other way. Not only that, Reagan had a horrid approval rating when he left office but the media turned him into a rock star).

[liberalitch]

9. There is no such thing!

There are many conservative folks proud of their ties with Ronald RayGun BUT in 20 years you won't be able to find a single MF who will admit to having voted for W

[TexasObserver]

25. That's why each election comes down to the circumstances and the candidates.

If Obama wins big, they'll be writing about Obama Republicans.

[elehhhhna]

11. my husband's first vote was for RR. I didn't know him then, and

he didn't pay attention to politics AT ALL...'til I came along & made him wise up.

[OnionPatch]

13. I never met one, either.

I think Reagan Democrats are basically people who don't have a clue about politics. They use sound bites to make their decisions rather than expend energy to learn about the real issues. They may have voted for Democrats here or there but they are not really Democrats, never were. Unfortunately they do make up a fairly important voting block, but I can think of better names for them.

[TexasObserver]

24. The Reagan Democrat is a fiction.

Another storyline someone thought up and sold. The gullible buy into it.

[Alexander]

34. Dinosaurs must be fiction, too, because I never saw one.

I've never been to Japan, either. Japan must not exist.

:eyes:

[paulk]

47. I think calling them Democrats

mostly refers to the idea that they fit economically into a demographic that should be voting for Democrats,rather than their actual party affiliation.

[newmajority]

15. For over 20 years, I thought my dad voted for Reagan in 84

I knew he never voted for either Chimpy or his daddy, but for some reason I thought he drank the jelly bean flavored Kool Aid in 84. I was relieved a few weeks ago to find out that wasn't the case.

That's the good news. The bad news is, it hasn't been easy convincing him to support Obama. I don't think he's a McCain fan. Spent too much time in Arizona for that. Yeah, it's one of those generational things. (he's 77)

[rndmprsn]

17. My granfather...FDR/Dem, Union Dem, but voted for Ronnie both times.

he died a few years ago, but yeah the archie bunker stereotype fit him well.

fairly populist on most economic issues, but very socially conservative...he was born in 1917 in rural northwest OH.

[wyldwolf]

27. according to someone in this thread, your grandfather didn't exist

[TexasObserver]

32. a lot of old white people stopped voting Democrat because of civil rights.

People who stopped voting for Democrats because Democrats offended their racist attitudes are Democrats who became Republicans. Did your grand father ever vote for a Democrat for president after voting for Reagan?

[Alexander]

39. Yes, and what are those people called?

It's like arguing with a toddler.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alexander]

42. But they voted Dukakis and Clinton later. You don't like hearing those pesky facts, do you?

Anyone with facts to refute your bullshit is "annoying" and put on ignore - always the sign of one who can't handle debate.

Fact 1: There are Reagan Democrats.

Fact 2: Hart got caught in 1987.

Facts 3: You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, even if you were "there".

[rndmprsn]

44. he had a kind of grudging admiration for bill clinton, especially during the impeachment thing

but no he never voted for a democrat for prez after jimmy carter in 1976.

[TexasObserver]

52. People usually become more conservative with age.

It's not unusual for people who vote Democratic in younger years drift to the Republican side on presidential races. Those that go GOP and stay in presidential elections are national Republicans. In rural areas where many people vote in the Democratic primary so they can have a vote on local races, there are many voters who never vote for the Democrat in the presidential election. I don't don't consider them Democrats. If one doesn't usually vote for the Democrat in the presidential race, they're not a Democrat in my book.

[butterfly77]

19. They always use it and it irritates me always..

a lot of their terms and statistics relate to something that happen 20,30,or 40 years ago as though they relate to the people of today. I think they use the tactic of telling people who they are and how someone voted years ago in a certain demographic,region or race and they think it pertains to today.

It's the economy among other things and they continue to tell us we are not in a recession..Just like McCain and his crew who want to tell people who are living with it that it is psychological. They need to come to the real world and take a tour of the real United States...

[TexasObserver]

28. it's a term that is intended to identify Democrats, but is really about Independents

[Alexander]

38. Did you learn this from the same person who told you Hart was caught with Donna Rice in 1984?

Because you apparently don't pick up a book and read for yourself.

[Speck Tater]

21. In a brief, and never repeated moment of insanity, I voted for Reagan.

(Hangs head in shame)

[Geek_Girl]

22. I've never met one either

My father voted for Carter then voted for Reagan and mostly votes Republican. I always thought they were just talking about dems that switched to Republicans like my dad. Though my Dad was never really a democrat.

[paulk]

35. most of my family and inlaws back in upstate NY

are "Reagan Democrats". One of my brother in laws is a perfect example - he's your age, voted for Carter, Reagan, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Kerry, and will most likely vote for McCain (unless I can talk him out of it) come November.

Oh, and yeah - I'd like to see you "smack him upside the head" - he weighs close to 300 lbs, was Inter Athletic Conference undefeated heavyweight wrestling champ in both his highschool junior and senior years, and can still pick the backend of a small car off the ground.

;-)

The so called "Reagan Democrats" are still an important Demographic and Joe is right - Obama needs at least some of that vote to win. And it's a vote he didn't get in the Democratic primaries.

[Motown_Johnny]

37. I turned 18 three months after Reagan took office. I didn't know any better at the time...

I consider myself a FORMER Reagan Democrat



I disagreed with him on social issues, even back then. BUT... in my youth I was impressed with the economic upswing (Michigan was in bad shape at the time) and the "defeat" of the Soviet Union that occurred while he was in office. I was also foolish enough to believe that the "peace dividend" would be reinvested back into social programs after the Evil Empire was no more. Clearly that was ignorant.




I don't know if you define "Reagan Democrat" differently than I do but because I did support him even though I still had Democratic values I considered myself.... one of those....



As for Obama winning over the Reagan Democrat, if the rest of them are anything like me then there is no issue. Obama has my full support, even when I disagree with him. I suppose this is a carry over from my youth. I don't expect any leader to agree with me on every issue. If they did then I would be qualified to be President.....(never gonna happen)



just for the record.. I never voted for him

[blonndee]

41. My parents were Reagan Democrats.

It seems that the Reagan years were when they went through a major ideological transformation. They changed their registration from Democrat to Republican then. I was just a kid, but this is based on years of conversation and anecdotes. Now, sadly, they're among the 28 percenters. It makes me really sad, but what can I do? We just have to pretty much leave politics out of things, although, surprisingly, we can discuss MOST social issues reasonably. We respect and love each other very much so we try to be really careful and considerate when we discuss issues. It's when specific PEOPLE come up that things can get bad (e.g., Bush, Obama). I would not even DARE to say one word about McCain to them.

Thankfully, they've become more apolitical and apathetic the last few years. Sure, they will vote, but at least they've stopped watching FAUX every day.

[Alexander]

43. According to TexasObserver, our families don't exist.

:eyes:

[blonndee]

49. Well, my parents might not be "Reagan Democrats" anymore

but they for sure were back then. I would agree with what Texas Observer seems to be suggesting, though; namely, that many of these people are no longer Democrats. I HOPE that more so-called "Reagan Democrats" saw the light eventually.

I'll have to reread this thread to see if I have a good understanding of the dispute.

ETA: It seems like there are different understandings of what "Reagan Democrat" means. The media talking heads seem to be referring to those Democrats who flipped and voted for Reagan, but have since returned and voted mostly Democratic. Others (and this is what I always thought of, given my family background) think of "Reagan Democrats" as people who WERE Democrats but who were persuaded one way or the other to vote for Reagan and who have since become repukes. I personally can't offer an opinion regarding the former because I have no idea how many of these Democrats remain.

[TexasObserver]

54. Media use the term to talk about Democrats that supposedly exist now.

The use the term, as if there is some storehouse with "Reagan Democrats" waiting to be heard from.

I do not believe there is such a group of voters. There are many people who vote in Democratic primaries but will never vote for the Democratic nominee for president. They are national Republicans.

It may just be quibbling over words, but I speak against the concept of Reagan Democrats because I think it aggrandizes Reagan.

[TexasObserver]

53. Your parents became Republicans. They're among Bush's 28%.

It's a misnomer to call them Reagan Democrats. They're people who switched from being Democrats to being Republicans while Reagan was president. They didn't vote Democratic the next time. They registered as Republicans and became Republicans.

The term "Reagan Democrat" is suppose to mean Democrats who typically vote for Democrats for president but have center and right of center values. It isn't suppose to mean people who stopped being Democrats and started being Republicans.

The phenomenon of people becoming more conservative as they get older and, in many cases, becoming Republican voters, is something that is always taking place.

[blonndee]

55. Yeah, I noted that in my edit.

It's clearly a difference in understanding of the term that has caused this row. I see what you mean, and it does seem clear now that mediawhores are using the term in this way; still, it also seems as though the question as to how many so-called "Reagan Democrats" still exist remains unresolved.

I wonder why (if it's true) people tend to get more conservative as they age. If you're interested in such a discussion, why do you think that might be?

[TexasObserver]

58. I think people become more conservative because they own more.

As people make more money, they become resentful of programs they can't qualify for, but others do.

It's easy to be a liberal when going to college on grants and loans. Harder to do when you're making over $100K a year.

[blonndee]

61. That makes sense.

But still, that seems to appeal to a very ignorant and selfish ideology. Of course, "America" as we know it depends upon the ignorance and selfishness of its citizens to survive.

[TexasObserver]

62. Polls show the older the person, the more likely to vote McCain. The younger, Obama.

If you were to check the polls, you'd see that there is a steady reversal from youth to old age, as many move from liberal to conservative over time.

[blonndee]

64. Is this a generational thing, do you think?

I personally have become more liberal the older I get. However, others might say that my "higher education" brainwashed me, and that's why I and others like me are more liberal. It would be interesting to learn whether this is "typical" and try to find some causal relationships historically re: this. I'm sure there are plenty out there and that I'm showing my ignorance here. I've just never read them before.

[CTyankee]

56. Unfortunately, my mother was a Reagan Democrat. She had always been a strong Democrat

but voted for Reagan bothtimes. She was exactly his age and felt an affinity for him. I fussed and fussed withher about this, but she stuck toher guns and that was that. Ilost her when she was 94 in 2005. I wish she was around to talk to about politics this year...

[Hippo_Tron]

57. I met one canvassing for Harold Ford in Tennessee

She was an old lady probably in her 80's. She said she was going out to vote but she was voting for Corker and hadn't voted Democratic since Jimmy Carter. In her words "it just got too wild after that".

[RoyGBiv]

59. That's a really bad analogy ...

... for the point you're trying to make.

'Cause, ya know, dinosaurs did exist.

[PurityOfEssence]

60. Gosh, then they must not exist

It reminds me of a regular poster here (missing of late) who swoons that everyone else at her Oakland Beauty Parlor absolutely loves Obama and considers this proof that he's unbeatable.

It's always interesting how people simultaneously say that there are things they can't understand, and then riff on about how their not having experienced other things somehow "proves" that they don't exist. Ignorance and incomprehension shouldn't be used as proof of wisdom and understanding, but then again, if we adhered to that concept, most of the arguments for an afterlife and a supreme being would be swept aside.

The beat goes on.

I don't know about a supreme whatever, but Reagan Democrats exist. They're not all racists, either; many are just stodgy and dislike taxation to support unemployment insurance, welfare and other programs.

My conservative friends all can't stand McCain, but they're still going to vote for him...

[Recursion]

63. Blue-collar workers who vote hawkish and anti-gay

There's plenty of them

[RedShoes]

66. I'm related to a few Reagan democrats.

never seen a dinosaur though.

[skooooo]

67. Yuppies from the 80s

[SoCalDem]

68. Reagan democrats are republicans

self-proclaimed democrats who voted for reagan in '80 were probably children of FDR democrats who grew up in a dem family, so they called themselves democrats, but they actually were republicans (having been spoiled children, raised by parents who struggled, and then gave EVERYTHING to their kids)....they are republicans...and the FDR dems that used to live in that area..well most of them are long since dead...or if thy are still living, they may just still be dems, who are worried sick about their old age..

The spoiled republican kids may just come back to their roots though, as they see their 401-ks evaporate and start worrying about the non-pensions that most of them "have"..