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I'm angry about FISA. But I'm angry at the right people, and not for primary reasons.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-08 11:57 PM
Original message
I'm angry about FISA. But I'm angry at the right people, and not for primary reasons.
Edited on Fri Jul-11-08 11:59 PM by Political Heretic
Forgive me if I'm a bit cynical about much of the Obama trashing here. When the biggest proponents of Obama trashing are coming from the exact same people who were trashing him during the primary, its hard to believe in its sincerity.

Especially when, if one were serious in one's anger about FISA, one would be angry at different people.

I'm angry about FISA. I agree with the ACLU in its assessment that it is a bad bill. But I'm angry at congressional democratic leaders, particularly house speaker Nancy Pelosi, who chose to bring this to the floor when she did not have to. I'm angry over her obvious reason for doing so, because she cowardly believed that Republicans in close-race downticket districts would try to use Congress' choice not to deliver a new FISA bill against democrats running in close races, and that it was therefore necessary to pass a FISA bill which would thus take that criticism off the table.

That was a huge, cowardly mistake. The lack of a FISA bill was not an issue until the House made it one by bringing it up again. It would have been far easier for any Democratic candidate to defend against the House not bringing a FISA bill to a vote that it would be to defend against not voting for a "national-security" bill (how it would have been framed) once presented. It was an example of the same cowardly attitude that has driven Nancy Pelosi since 2006, and we have every right to be upset about it.

However, that is where the mistake was made. Once that mistake was made, a chain of events was set into motion where there were limited good options. Obama could have cast a no vote, but that vote - no one can deny - would have been a purely symbolic gesture. There were a clear majority of senators who declared that they would vote for the bill long before it came to the actual vote. Everyone knew it had the votes to pass with or without Obama's no vote. Sincere defenders of the 4th amendment would correctly direct their anger at those congressional leaders who allowed this bill to come to the floor at all. Once it did, the damage was already done with a majority of senators already pledging to vote for it.

It is ridiculous to ask Obama to throw the presidential election to cast a purely symbolic vote. It's insane to expect (or want) him to gift-wrap and hand the GOP everything it has been desperately hoping for with which to attack Obama from now until November. There's a distinct possibility it would have cost him the Presidency. And even if it turned out it would not, its simply not worth the risk.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be angry about FISA. But sincere people direct that anger where it belongs - not on the failure of a candidate for president to cast a symbolic no vote that would potentially cost him the election, but with the continued failure of Democratic Congressional leadership and their cowardly assumption that the had to do this in order to win. The only reason not to direct anger where it belongs is if your motives for trashing Obama were never sincere in the first place!

That's what I call disruption.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agree totally. They put Obama in a no-win situation. nt
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Beautifully stated.
An excellent summary of not only what was, but what never should have been.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Damn thanks. You're one of the best writers at this place.
So thank you.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. The way people lose the forest for the trees is what drives me nuts - like hurting the Obama
campaign is beneficial to fighting for the 4th Amendment.

Check out this Diary - the volunteer who quit - :wtf:


Fellow Kossack Advice needed: my Obama grassroots problem
by krwlngwthyou
Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 08:16:23 PM PDT
I need some advice, fellow Kossacks.

I am pretty new to this politics game...I am 20 and I've never been able to vote for President before (I was 17 in 2004...yeah, I'm pretty bitter about that still) and I haven't had any real experience in working on a campaign aside from the neighborhood canvassing I did this February in Milwaukee, WI for the Obama campaign.

Anyway, I have received some news tonight that has left me disappointed and looking for some advice.

krwlngwthyou's diary :: ::
The person who was going to run the Obama group in my hometown has decided he is no longer willing to do so after Sen. Obama's FISA vote. While I respect his decision and understand it is his choice, I can't help but feel disappointed.

You see, I live in Milwaukee during the school year but reside in a small county further up the Wisconsin peninsula during the summer months. This county is home to about 34,000 people and is typically conservative. However, I feel it has great potential. TIME Magazine listed this county as one of just a handful Wisconsin counties that went overwhelmingly for Barack in the February primary. I really see this as an untapped resource.

I'm not going to give out the name of the county simply because I don't want to point fingers or sound like I am blaming this person who has opted out of volunteering for Obama. The name isn't what's important, anyway. The next step is.

This is where I'm looking for some advice, or kossack wisdom as you will. Some have suggested I run the operation on my own, but that concerns me. I am working 40 hours a week to pay for college, and I am also going to be returning to Milwaukee in the school year. This would leave the group in somewhat of a bind. I also am new to campaigns, like I mentioned. My lack of experience makes me hesitant to try and organize something without having a full grasp of the amount of resources I will need.

Does anyone have any experience or advice they could give me in this situation? Do you think it would be best if I just let it go, considering how Barack is running away with WI in the polls, or should I try to start something without any experience? I would need some pointers and tips on what resources I'd need, who to contact in the campaign, what to expect...any advice really. Some kossacks may think this is a no brainer, and the next step is obvious, but I really am new to this and am unsure as to how to proceed.

Consider this diary my thoughts and open mind on how to go forward. If anybody wants to throw in their 2 cents, you're more than welcome.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/11/23249/5063/951/550265


I feel like the lesson from 2000 was lost on a lot of people.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. We regularly eat our own and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...
...you'd think at some point we would learn.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. I have said that twice in my posts. That I think the congressional leaders put him on the spot.
But people did not read that part or care.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. You're right... a lot of us, on either side of the "debate" were a little knee-jerk
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 12:09 AM by Political Heretic
sorry.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Instead I have been asked not to post in this forum about FISA
I never criticized Obama for it, but no one noticed. They just assumed.

I hardly mentioned his name, my posts were directed at Congress.

But others post here about FISA and don't get run out.

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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
98. if they tried to run you out
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 12:44 AM by swampg8r
it is probably because of the fact that a real dissent would seen as the very same false concern mentioned in the OP
i read everything you said about fisa that i saw and i again found your input valuable as for the final formation of my opinion of the matter


its a shame those of us who have actual problems with issues by obama are being lumped in with the constant greek chorus of those who have been trashing the nominee for months and continueto do so unopposed in this forum
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well said
I am not convinced by a long shot this bill is the evisceration of the bill of rights many want to make it seem. I do think its a poorly written bill and open to much interpretation.

I totally agree though that the blame for this even being an issue lays squarely at Nancy and Harry's feet.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Interestingly... is there more than one Reid in the Senate? Because a Reid voted No.
I was wondering about that...
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:14 AM
Original message
I think there are two though I believe the spelling is different
I do believe Harry voted against it. he has been very confusing of late. I intend to try and get him ousted in our next election but I don't really think he will run again. He is looking pretty frail in person.

He has done a lot of stuff since becoming majority leader that has left me wondering whose side he was on.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
24. Seriously! Me too.
On M,W and F I like him. On T, TH and S I hate him. :P
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. What the hell do you think I have been saying?
You have been on my butt calling me names, and we were saying the same thing???
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. I think you have been saying FISA bad
obama bad, to the extent that I am pretty sure you said you would donate your money elswehere. I also think you have been touting peoples opinions on the bill as if they are fact with nothing to back it up. This is a very difficult bill to understand and the more I read on it the more fascinating it becomes. It is far from black and white good and bad. Your opinion is respected on this board by many people including me and your propping up of the obama bashers with your posts on how bad fisa is while probably unintentional has not been helpful at all to those of us trying to defend his position.

I want to understand what is going on with this law and constant barages of 28 groups oppose it does nothing to help further that. That is my only problem with you at the moment mad.

It is not a black and white issue despite how Finegold and 28 other groups want to paint it.


I really don't want to argue with you about it anymore though as we are getting no where with this and you are just finding ways to find perceived insults from me when none are intended.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. I think we are through communicating.
My posts have been clear and common sense.

I think it is time.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Fine by me
We aren't getting anywhere.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. The "War On Drugs" had already eviscerated the bill of rights long ago.
This FISA bill was one more nail in that coffin.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Yep, along with COINTELPRO and ECHELON....
But I think the drug war is the worst - I have 21 years clean and sober and had my pockets gone through LAST YEAR without being asked AFTER having my bike bags tossed by one of the local yokel police idjits.....4th amendment?? You have to be fucking kidding. 35 years gone.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. I agree we have put the 4th amendment aside in a lot of instances
I am not convinced that it is either the intent nor the actual function of this bill to do so.

its not a great bill to be sure its poorly worded and needs to be redone but I believe its intent is to actually shore up the 4th amendment when it comes to foreign surveillance. When put into practice that may not be the result however.

Having said that a large part of the ability of people to step on our fourth amendment rights comes from people being ignorant of them and unwilling to do anything when they are abused.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
59. And Hoyer, too
Let's not let that little snake in the grass get away with it.

Not to mention the blue Dogs and the ten mysterious Congressional Democrats who were "worried" they would lose their districts, even though they presented no evidence and polls show Democrats making sweeps across the board, even in red areas.

And the DLC.

Obama's blame is miniscule compared to the guilt burden borne by these Democrats.

Obama had to make a Hobson's choice.

But you know, I cannot help but to think that making that Hobson's choice is exactly what the plan was for our illustrious collection of DINOs. I have become too cynical, I guess, but I still detect a strong element of elected Democrats unhappy with Obama as our nominee (read: Wasserman-Schultz).
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #59
73. you sir, understand politics. Obama ain't stupid
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
89. Good points
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
13. K and Fucking R best FISA post yet. Perfect.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. A senator's vote is not symbolic and he voted for a piece of terrible
legislation. That's a problem. Sorry if you don't think so, but we haven't begun to see the political implications of this totally unnecessary sell-out.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yes. It is symbolic, when the vote cannot change the outcome.
The trouble started when the bill was allowed to go to the floor. That's where anger should be directed. You shouldn't be angry that the democratic nominee for president opted not to throw the general election after his hands were tied.

If was a sell-out, but not by Obama. Try blaming the right people for once.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. I think you still misunderstand the reaons Obama voted for this.
It has nothing, but nothing to do with appearing weak on terrorism. NOTHING. That's pure horsehit vended by spin meisters whose job it is to mislead the weak. There's no electoral payoff here. In fact he dropped TWELVE POINTS IN ONE WEEK according a Newsweek poll posted earlier today.

No, he didn't do it to win votes. He figured he already had it locked and so he gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff.

I'm afraid however that he lost that gamble. We noticed.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. CNN has him up by 8. And I never said he did it to win votes.
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 12:30 AM by Political Heretic
I said that its ludicrous to expect him to just hand the GOP the attack they have been dying for that they would hammer him with over and over again until the election. Would it work? I don't now, but I'm damn glad he didn't stupidly take the risk for a vote that wouldn't have changed the outcome.

In other words, not to "win" votes but not to "lose votes" via GOP attack.

That CNN poll is a "poll of polls" by the way, an average that is arguably more accurate.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. That's only rationale that's been offered, and yes, it's ludicrous. (n/t)
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Down to one liners, now.
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 12:32 AM by Political Heretic
That's typically what happens when you're rationally backed into a corner.

It's the only rationale that's been offered because its so obviously correct to everyone but the people who already didn't like Obama to begin with.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Uh, I have a question:
You said:

"No, he didn't do it to win votes. He figured he already had it locked and so he gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff."


Are you accusing the presumptive nominee for Democratic party candidate for President of the United States of America of selling his vote?


What the hell are you thinking?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. ...
"He figured he already had it locked and so he gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff."

Well, it sure is hard to refute specifics like "who knows what". Maybe you can provide the details behind your usual repertoire of "whatever", "it seems to me", and "I'm just sayin' is all".
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Link please to the quotes you attributed to me.
Thanks.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Not meant as direct quotes ...
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 02:53 AM by NanceGreggs
... just trying to capture the tenor of your usual arguments.

However, the "gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff" IS a direct quote. I'd be obliged if you'd explain what "who knows what" means.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Please link to the remarks you put in quotations marks -- all of them -- or delete them.
Thank you.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I've already explained ...
... that those weren't direct quotes.

But I'm more than happy to delete my entire post, and will do so the minute you explain what "gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff" means, and what the payoff was.

THAT is a direct quote - I am sure you wouldn't have said it if you couldn't back it up with specifics. WHAT was the 'payoff', who offered it, who accepted it (was it Obama personally, or someone on his behalf?), was it a flat-fee arrangement, or was it subject to negotiation?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Insinuating that the Democratic nominee for POTUS exchanged his vote for "a payoff" is a rather serious charge. Therefore, I can only assume that you can back up that claim with specific details.

Where are they?
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. I'm going to have to ask you again not to misquote me.
And I'm not going to get into in a food fight.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. In other words ...
... you cannot back up your claim that Obama exchanged his vote for a "payoff".

I already knew that was the answer - thanks for confirming it.

But please feel free to keep up the "you misquoted me" meme as a cover for insinuating that Obama accepted a payoff - a statement you clearly can't defend.

... and yet, there's still the blatant reality of the quote "gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff" - or am I "misquoting" you yet again?
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. In other words your question was foolish to being with.
I said "who knows what," meaning I don't know, and you just spent two hours asking me what I already said I don't know. That makes about as much sense as making up phony quotations and attributing them to me and then refusing to delete them even after I politely asked you to three times.

I have to say that I've been a little disappointed by a lot of people these last two weeks.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. So Obama DID accept a "payoff" ...
... in exchange for his vote - you just don't have the details, but you KNOW it to be true nonetheless.

I have quoted you directly - "gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff" - and yet you seem to have a problem with addressing that.

Let me give you a piece of advice, sweetie - and whether you choose to follow it or not is entirely up to you:

If you're going to imply, infer, or insinuate that a candidate for the presidency of the United States has exchanged his vote for a payoff, you'd better be damned sure you can back that up with more than "who knows what - but I don't know".

Don't try to hide behind being "misquoted" when faced, front-and-center, with your OWN WORDS.

And above all, don't bring a knife to a gunfight - especially when your knife has a dull blade, and was never up to the task in even your best case scenario.

"I have to say that I've been a little disappointed by a lot of people these last two weeks."

Yeah, I feel your pain. Imagine how "disappointing" it is when people state categorically that a candidate for POTUS accepted "who knows what" in exchange for selling the country down the river - but can't offer anything more concrete than their own delusional thinking as evidence.

But keep fightin' from that corner you've backed yourself into - the squirming may be sad, but it is somehow highly amusing.






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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to put you on my ignore list. (n/t)
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. lol
brilliant.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #57
74. Ha ha ha ha, you got your ASS HANDED TO YOU!!!
Man, that must have HURT!
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #57
80. Your loss to ignore Nance
and I guess you could add me if you wanted, but could you tell me why you are sporting an Obama pic? You seem intent on speaking ill of his actions, about which you know no more than the average DUer for motive. It doesn't jibe with your avatar.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. Her point being that there's not much substance, and no way to argue against
..and argument from ignorance. (Ignorance being not that you are stupid, but that you don't know.)

It's just baseless speculation without substance. That would be the point that I think pretty much anyone could understand.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. um... how about HERE:
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 04:39 AM by Political Heretic
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6490467&mesg_id=6490539

Quote: "No, he didn't do it to win votes. He figured he already had it locked and so he gambled away our civil rights for who knows what payoff."

That's called a direct quote.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #58
77. Well, that link pretty much says it all. Not that anyone would have
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 10:01 AM by JenniferZ
doubted Nance in the first place...
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
64. First off, it's one poll
Second, you honestly think he dropped because of FISA??

Get real. If you stopped 10 people in the mall to ask them about it, I doubt 9 would know what it is. However, had he voted "No", they would have run nonstop ads about how "Obama voted AGAINST allowing law enforcement to catch terrorists!"
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
72. Complete bullshit for all of you who read that. Please discount as the ravings of a lunatic.
Your proposal that Obama is interested in taking away citizens' civil rights is preposterous on the face of it.

You embarass yourself.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
79. It was my understanding
that if the Dems didn't pass this one, then a worse bill was going to be pushed through. I have every confidence that a President Obama would right the wrongs done to our Constitution. Maybe we are better off just getting the * Admin to leave quietly...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. How very odd the attacks on me, but I said basically the same thing.
It is was just because I posted it....and I was not supposed to do so.

How odd.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I for one, apologize.
I made two or three posts in response that were reactionary and less than kind. I'm big enough to apologize.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I appreciate that.
I think it is mindset of a few who determined I am attacking when I really am not.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. Not really. You started attacking Obama.
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 12:37 AM by vaberella
The bill isn't taht bad but however I do agree that it never should have made it to the floor in the first place. But when being there Obama had a choice to make.

You're picking and choosing even if you did put Obama in the backseat in your arguments. I do remember what threads you posted on and the comments of him failing us.

The OP has a different argument all together from you and that being said gives him/her a different clout which I was in agreement even before this focused on Obama, his let down, and FISA.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
67. That is a bald-faced lie. I have hardly mentioned Obama.
.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
75. BS.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. I just don't buy the argument that he'd have "thrown the election" by voting on principle.
imho, he could have used the vote to stand for the rights of the people and the constitution and then fought any attack on that vote by explaining and educating the public on the value of our rights, and the never ending effort by our government to restrict those rights.

We have to get over this, yes. But not by spinning it into something that rejects reality. And not by ignoring the fucking sworn duty of these people to defend and protect the constitution and therefore our rights.

What is is.

I don't want to see mccain elected, but at the same time, I'm not going to lie to myself or excuse any public servant for chosing political expediency over duty and the wellbeing of the supreme rights of the people.

Move on, yeah. Forget it, don't think I can. Make excuses for it, nope.


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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I understand what you're saying, but remember I didn't say it would - I said it could...
None of us can perfectly predict how much traction the GOP would have gotten attacking Obama on his vote. A lot of it depends on the future national climate. For example, if we get in a shootout with Iran, or god-forbid get attacked, you could imagine it being spun into something very serious, that a public motivated once again by fear could buy into.

We just don't know. My point was that its not worth the risk. It's not worth handing the GOP a potentially lethal attack when Obama's vote would never have changed the outcome. No, the damage was done by Congress when it was allowed onto the House floor.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. And I understand what you're saying, but when a servant of the people is called upon to defend our
Constitution, and choses otherwise, especially for his/her own political well being, they have done the wrong thing, and there is no justification for it. We held the bush gang to this standard for eight years. There is no right time to lower the bar for our own.

You say it's not worth it for this or that political reason. I say it is always worth it to defend the constitution, political consequences be dammed. Especially from the candidate who has made change synonymous with with his own name.

There is no wrong time to do the right thing.

And there is this problem, this necessary question that should be asked. If he'll take a stand on what is politically popular, regardless of what he "really" believes, then where does it stop? When is he just saying things for political reasons and when is he being sincere? How can you tell?

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Look, I respect your position and you've been very civil.
So thank you. I can't say "you're wrong." This is all too complicated to be so dismissive. And I appreciate you pushing me to think in a different way.

I guess I still disagree that it was ever "the right thing" for Obama to vote no. I think the "right thing" would have been for Pelosi never to put it on the floor. Once she did, I feel that the "right thing" became Obama's yes vote. And that's what pisses me off - putting him in a position where that was the "least bad" choice. :(

The slippery slope of "when/where does it stop" is certainly an important question. But I think that question will be more pertinent when Obama is forced to make a tough choice on an issue where his decision actually affects they outcome, or where the choice is initiated by him.

Example: some people feel his proposals on continued faith-based programs represent a real betrayal. I don't feel quite the same way, however for those that do, there is something that Obama initiated himself, that he had the power to stop if he had chose. So for those that are upset, their anger seems far more understandable to me.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. I think thats exactly where we get into trouble with this thing
I don't think its at all clear that the fisa bill itself is bad. In fact it adds protections that previously were not there. It imperfect to be sure but wholesale bad no I am not even close to ready to buy that.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Actually, on that front, I say check out the ACLU analysis of the bill
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 12:35 AM by Political Heretic
I'll go find a link and edit... but its pretty convincing in explaining why its bad.

EDIT - here it is.. letter to senate, open the pdf.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/35782leg20080625.html

EDIT2 - it would have been awesome if I could have made that a rick-roll :P
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. And we've been through this too PH. We've actually
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 12:42 AM by vaberella
went one step further and READ the bill itself. So the analysis is more like a "worst case scenario" however not the full picture. Further more, several edits of the bill took place since 2007 and especially in the months if not weeks before the final vote.


I've argued this before. There is studying the langauge yourself and allowing someone to do it for you. Rush Limbaugh and Bush probably have a slew of lawyers which could say positive things about the bill much like the ACLU said contrary right? How do you know what's true until you read the bill yourself.

You do your own analysis and then check out the language that's being used. Most of the papers that are handed out as "analysis" don't even use EXACT language. Until they do, I prefer looking at the script myself.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Execpt that I worked for the ACLU, and I trust their analysis.
Is it a substitute for paying attention yourself? No, of course not. And I do agree with you that it paints a picture of the worst case scenario. But even after reading the bill, there are many things that I am not expert enough to understand. For me, the ACLU isn't just any source - its a trusted source. So I can used their understanding to supplement the gaps in my own.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. well see theres another problem we have
I don't actually find the ACLU's argument compelling.

They make conclusions they cant really support such as this one...

H.R. 6304 permits the government to conduct mass, untargeted surveillance of all
communications coming into and out of the United States, without any individualized
review, and without any finding of wrongdoing. The official “targets” of the surveillance
must be overseas, but this factor is of little comfort to the Americans who are on the other end of
those communications. Americans do not lose their Fourth Amendment rights just because they
participate in international communications. Americans who happen to be engaged in wholly
innocent phone calls and email correspondence ought not to have their private communications
captured, stored and used by their government without judicial oversight focused directly on the
facts and circumstances surrounding the American-side of those communications.
H.R.

However thats not what the bill calls for, its a mixed bag.

Under current law, there are four significant limits on FISA’s regulatory scope with respect to surveillance. First, the statute does not apply where all parties to a wire or radio communication are located abroad, even if they are Americans (U.S. persons), and even if the surveillance is conducted inside the United States. Such foreign-to-foreign wire and radio communications are (and always have been) simply outside the statute’s scope. Under the new law, this will change, because surveillance targeting an American located abroad will generally be subject to Sections 703 (if the surveillance occurs in the United States) or 704 (if the surveillance occurs abroad), both of which require judicial findings of probable cause that the targeted American is an agent of a foreign power. This will be the case even if the American abroad is communicating with another person located abroad. In this respect, it would be fair to say that the new law will expand FISA. (Section 703 may be best seen as a limit on the contraction of FISA as discussed in the next paragraph, but Section 704 appears to be a genuine expansion.)


I have a lot of respect for the ACLU and what it does. I am not even close to convinced however what they have to say about this bill is correct.

Heres a very interesting link on it with discusion of the differences between fisa then and now.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/06/guide-to-new-fisa-bill-part-iii.html

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. That blog link was very good, and I'm reading Parts I and II now.
As I said above, I am aware that the ACLU is describing a worst-case scenario of possible outcomes under the bill, but I still believe that worst-case scenarios are still important.

Also, I know this is going to sound incredibly childish, but I can't help it that my gut says anything the Bush administration is really happy about (they were nearly giddy today) is bad news.

But please don't take that as my only argument. :)

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. absolutely not
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 02:01 AM by Egnever
I totally understand where you are coming from and your OP is brilliant.

I have been reading all I can get my hands on the last few days on this stuff and I still don't know if its good or bad. I think its both actually.

Anyway glad you are reading it, there's good stuff in there and the more i read about it the more fascinated i become with it.



:toast:
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Exactly. But no one has said it was perfect.
It has both good and bad elements. But the black list it's been given is and especially added by claims that "Obama is a liar" and "signing away our rights" and "he has no idea what he's doing" is really what the problem is.

Majority of the threads that started were all HATE threads on Obama not really the real targets and then it's added by misrepresentation of the bill and not a clear focus on what the language states but claimants depending on others. That's not going to work.

However the OPs post really targets what the issue is and always have been. Which was never supposed to really be about Obama.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Yes, this whole subthread has been highly interesting - and I feel a little disappointed
...because this is the first time in a long while I'm having to question the accuracy of the ACLU's analysis on this matter. And that makes me sad.

I didn't think I would understand the bill if I tried to read it, which is why I thought I needed smart people (ACLU) to explain it to me. But now I've started reading it, along with the other analysis links provided.

And I'm starting to feel like the ACLU has been guilty of some pretty serious hyperbole. :(

I'll know more as I digest all of this information.... sigh.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Now now dont get crazy
The ACLU isnt the devil or anything. They do lots of great stuff and like you I truly believe they are interested in protecting the rights of the American people. I think they just went a little far out on a limb with some of their statements on this thing.

Unfortunately a lot of people are using it as ammo to beat up our nominee. Who in my opinion after hours of reading on this thing actually made the right decision on this one. It needs to be revisited to be sure as clearly its open to a wide range of interpretation but I think its intent is actually to do the right thing when it comes to the fourth amendment rights. I also think it will work till we get him in office and we can change it. Some of the protections it provides are IMHO actually necessary to curtail this administrations adventures.

Crazy reading though eh? Makes you go hmmmm
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #51
62. No, I'm not going crazy.... however...
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 04:46 AM by Political Heretic
..it is frustrating when you very much want to be able to count on a source to simplify information for you. There's so much, and its so complicated, with so many variables that sometimes I feel like I need to be able to have organizations that I can look to for authoritative information.

And I would still say the ACLU certainly qualifies as such - but every once in a while you get these bitter reminded that NO organization is perfect, and in the end there simply are no substitutes for your own examination.

Now for me, I thought the bill would be impossible for me to understand myself, but I'm slowly making sense of it.

Not being able to rely on any outside source of information 100% of the time means having to narrow the scope of things you know stuff about.... because there's just no way to keep informed by doing all of your own research on everything that is going on. It's just not possible. :(
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
87. It is frustrating
A few of us have been battling here with others for days over this thing with the ACLU statements used time and time against us. An organization that deservedly has a good reputation with many.

Its very difficult to move people to look past the ACLU statement and investigate it for themselves. Not to mention the difficulty of reading the law for the average Joe like you or me. 8 years ago before this nightmare started i would have taken the ACLU's word at face value as well and never looked any further. Today after the prolonged bush nightmare I have come to where I don't trust many sources on anything. When they start screaming it from every roof top I really get worried.

Anyway I am glad you are taking the time to muddle through it. While it may have lessened your confidence in the ACLU some I hope it restored some of your confidence in Obama. While the bill is far from perfect as he said himself. It does put in some restrictions that are helpful and he can come back and revisit it after he gets into office.

Like you said in your OP He was put in a bad situation there was no win for him here. After doing my research on this thing I have come to the conclusion that once again this man took the time weighed the facts and in my honest opinion made the right choice, despite the hit he is taking from his own supporters. It actually strengthens my support of him. He knew this would hurt him with his base but he made the tough choice and went with it.

Not a perfect bill by any means but its a very complex matter and clearly not one open to a black and white solution.

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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #48
71. I understand. I feel the same way to a certain extent. But, having
been in law enforcement on a Federal level, I know from experience that no two scholars or groups agree on what a law says. So we have to go to the actual bill.
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
76. I completely agree with you.
There are some fundamental principles, like the right to privacy, that should not be cast away for political expediency. Obama has to stop worrying what the average joe-shmo might think of these sorts of votes, because my guess is that the average voter is not paying much attention to the details. A principled candidate with a message for change is what Obama has defined himself as. That persona is what attracts and EXCITES new voters. Now, that broad message is bigger than any other political calculation.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/2410773
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
81. The public doesn't have a long attention span
enough to "explain" nuance to. The GOP wanted this FISA thing to swing around like a club on Obama. The K.Rove playbook is now old hat enough to those paying attention. They would have used this to paint Obama as weak on terror, no doubt about it.

If you want to be angry at the proper parties, I believe that would be Pelosi and Reid.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
38. gd>>>>P
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
43. "gift-wrap and hand the GOP everything it has been desperately hoping for"
Which EXACTLY what he did.

Instead of standing on principle (which is what voters really care about) he can now be labeled a flip flopper- and no one can honestly deny it on this issue.

That said, I agree with you re: Pelosie and the House, though. Had the shoe been on the Republican foot, a bill like this would have never seen the light of day. THAT's where the majority of the blame lies.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I don't think so.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
83. "gift-wrap and hand the GOP everything it has been desperately hoping for"
Also desperately hoped for was a political club to swing at Obama had he voted no. I think there is much much more to this whole FISA deal than you or I know...
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Youphemism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
63. I made a similar post earlier...

It didn't get much response, but here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6423332

You're right, we were failed by House Democrats -- over 100 of them defected to pass this bill. Once that happened, nothing could stop it.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
65. I have been a repeated critic of Obama's failure to follow through on his pledge to the grassroots.
I was also a very strong Obama supporter from about a week after Kucinich dropped out of the race. I attended Camp Obama in Missoula MT, I organized a group of Obama volunteers in conservative Ravalli County, and we won the county for Obama by a greater percentage than the state average.

I say was. Now I'm a lukewarm Obama supporter. In fact I'm more of an anti-McCain guy than a pro-Obama guy at this point. I will vote for Obama. It's not like I have a choice.

Pelosi shouldn't have brought this up in the House.

However, Obama made a commitment to the grassroots just last Oct. His commitment wasn't contingent on whether he won the nomination which I worked my ass off helping him to do. His promise wasn't contingent on whether Pelosi brought up a bill in the house.

You are making excuses for Obama. I'm tired of excuses. That's why I was strongly supporting Obama. i wanted accountability, not excuses.

I figure if Obama will flat out lie to the grassroots about what he will do concerning FISA, it's a good bet he will lie about anything.

I can't get too excited about that.

If you can, good for you.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #65
94. I am not making excuses for Obama. I absolutely think he did the right thing and I'm glad he did it
So that's not an "excuse"

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gerhard the whale Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
66. Is there a plus side to his mis-vote?
I'm willing to suspend judgment until I see how he governs. He seems to be playing one amazing game of chess, and maybe this is him distinguishing in scale the cost of a principled vote, where, for example, his Iraq stance lead him to victory (while the political safe road of Clinton and Edwards lead to defeat), and this time around, the issue is too complex to convey in meaningful rhetoric.

My question is, if that's true; if he's really unable to communicate with his base that he's only playing to win, will he send us some kind of signal, heh, in the form of a running mate perhaps? A true progressive?

Ah, there goes my virgin post.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
93. Once the damage was done (allowing the bill to the floor) the plus side was:
...taking any particular GOP attack plan on national security or foreign policy relating to FISA off the table. Obama has done a very good job of giving the GOP next to nothing to really trash him with.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
68. It's the job of the Democratic house and senate leadership to keep the bill OFF the floor.
So our presidential candidate doesn't have to jump on this hot potato.

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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #68
82. That's totally correct!
I'm mad at those two, as usual. I would love to see them leave politics...
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
69. I am in perfect agreement with you. I do NOT want to silence
anyone on this issue, as has been stated by several here. Very few of us like FISA as it was written. I do not like FISA as it was written.

However, IMO, in order to have credibility on this issue, one must recognize the no-win situation our candidate was put in.

In the end, it was going to be voted on. And I think it is best that it was done now rather than in October. If Obama had anything at all to say about the timing, I believe that was it - to do it earlier rather than later since the House wanted it done no matter what.

I also believe that House leaders were trying to give their reps some nat'l security bona fides before November. It's just politics, sad to say.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
70. And with that OP, you just blew a whole (swift)boat-load of Disruptors out of the water!
Beautiful!
K&R!!!
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
78. I agree that Pelosi and Reid are the ones who hold primary responsibility...
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 10:29 AM by MN Against Bush
But every member of Congress that voted for it bears some responsibility as well, and that includes Obama. As the Presidential nominee he is now the leader of the party and that is why his vote is so important even though it was not his choice to bring this to the floor.

For Pelosi and Reid to bring a bill that divides the left like this one does to the floor in the middle of election season however shows that they are seriously sabotaging our electoral chances in November.

I am upset at Obama for this vote, and I think he made an enormous political mistake. You do not move to the "center" by voting on a bill that is unpopular with the American people, and believe me this bill is unpopular with the American people. This is not going to win him any votes, but it may well cost him some. Hopefully he will learn a lesson from this however and start sticking with his principles even when his advisers tell him not to. I really think Obama would have voted against this bill if it were not for his advisers, the beltway insiders consistently give our candidates bad advice and it is time for our candidates to stop listening to them.

On edit: And may I just emphasize that it is a MYTH that voting against this bill would have harmed Obama. Most Americans oppose Bush's illegal wiretapping program, there was no public outcry for a bill that would give Bush more power. The GOP could not effectively attack him for voting against a bill when most people who feel passionately about that bill strongly oppose it.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #78
92. "Some" not "Sole"
Each member of congress bears different amounts of responsibility - but not sole responsibility.

Your opinion that voting against the bill wouldn't have harmed Obama is just that - an opinion. Note that in my original post I said that no one knows what effect it would have had. The only thing we can be reasonable sure of is that it was exactly what the GOP was hoping for, and Obama would have been handing that to them giftwrapped with a bow on it. Would it have worked? No one knows, but in my opinion it was not worth the risk for a symbolic vote that would not possibly have changed the outcome.

Moreover, thanks to some posters on this thread, I've actually spent all last night reading the bill, and studying the opinions of former Assistant Deputy Attorney Generals who because courage truth-to-power speakers over protecting civil rights -- both (unfortunately, this really disappointments) seem to show that the ACLU's assesment of the bill is highly exaggerated to the point of not being entirely honest.

Now look, I'm a former ACLU employee - only ex-employee because I left to return to graduate school. I love the ACLU, and it makes me very sad to say this. But go up to the thread between Egnever and I (starts at #30) and before you react, just read through it all.

Then, go find the bill and actually read it yourself, if you haven't. Even if you think - like I did - what you want be able to understand it.

It kind of paints a much different picture of things....
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. I never said sole so please don't put that word in quotes when responding to me...
To quote the word "sole" when I never said that word is dishonest.

Second why is your claim that the GOP was hoping that he would vote against the bill fact, and my claim that voting against this bill wouldn't have harmed him opinion?

My statement was an educated guess which I believe to be accurate, although I will admit someone may be able to put up a reasonable argument. I could also give you a reasonable argument that the GOP wanted him to vote for this bill, so don't claim your statement is not an opinion but mine is.

And for the record I read sections of the bill, but I did not read the whole thing. Why did I not read the whole thing? Because I am not a lawyer, and the bill is written in very specific legal language and if it is not studied extremely closely it is easy to be misled about what the bill does. I trust the ACLU far more than I trust my own reading of a bill that was written in a language that is intended to confuse anyone who is not a lawyer. Did you notice how many cross references there were? Those cross references often contain important details, and when you have to start jumping all over the place looking up these cross references it gets very confusing. This is where loopholes come in, and I would rather listen to an ACLU lawyer who I trust tell me about this bill than I would trust my own judgment and I hope I don't get deceived by the very confusing wording of the bill.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. I wasn't quoting you. I was attempting empahsis - should have used *
The claim that the GOP would have used his no vote against a national security bill (that's how it would have been framed) is patently obvious to anyone. Of course they would have tried to use it. No one is going to dispute that.

Where we both have opinions is on whether or not it would have worked. Your opinion is that it would not have worked. My opinion is that no one knows if it would have worked or not (a lot would have depended on the context of the next few months) but that either way it was not worth the risk.

My statement there is also opinion, and I never tried to say that it wasn't.

As far as the bill goes, I thought the exact same thing as you! I didn't read the bill at all until just last night, because I thought was too stupid to understand it! So when the ACLU put out their opinion on it, I took that as gospel. As I said I used to work for the ACLU, and I continue to believe that it is one of the best organization around.

However, I was encouraged to go ahead and try to read the bill for myself, then look at some different analysis that broke the bill down piece by piece, and an incredibly long, three-part analysis. If you do ever choose to look at the sub-thread above that starts at post #30, I think you'll find it very interesting whether it changes your opinion or not. It at the very least, raised a lot of questions, concerns and doubts for me about what I thought I knew about the bill and how bad it was.

It's pretty fascinating.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
84. permission to proceed bashing Pelosi?
without feeling like a hypocrite for not bashing Obama as well?

No, Obama as the party's nominee could influence Pelosi, and he chose not to.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. You don't know what. How about we try sticking to facts for once.
Otherwise, I'll have to assume that your preestablished biases are the only thing driving your opinion.

Pelosi and the DNC are operating in concern for more than just the White House, such as down-ticket races in competitive but moderate districts where they could gain seats.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
85. You're Quite Incorrect
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 11:37 AM by Crisco
The greatest criticisms I see of Obama on Democratic Underground currently, are coming from the Kucinich left who bought into his candidacy hook, line, and sinker after Dennis made whatever deal he made for Iowa.

Obama's more pragmatic backers on DU were perfectly happy to stand by and watch - and in some cases, lead - the chumps trash Hillary Clinton and her supporters for six months and now that they haven't properly busied themselves in the general, they're waking up and realizing they've been had - AGAIN - you don't know what to do with them, do you?

You break it, you own it.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Capitalizing each word does not lend the credibility to your post that you think it does.
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 11:06 AM by Bonobo
In fact, yours is just another poorly disguised "You shouldn't have been mean to us" cry of pain.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Your post doesn't even make sense.
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 11:18 PM by Political Heretic
:wtf:

We all "own it" - thankfully, its far from broken.

EDIT - oh I see, this is a "waa you (whoever "you" is, because it certainly wasn't me) were mean to us in the primaries so ha ha ha!"

Brilliant. :eyes: No wonder the country's gone so far to the right - this is what we busy ourselves with. Now, if you'd care to address the actual OP, that would be great - and quite a shock to me, actually.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
88. Political Heretic, I've always considered your analysis the most fair on here.
And that continues to be the case.

Keep it up, man.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. thank you so much for the kind words.
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