VP POLL (cutting to the chase) Clinton versus Hagel

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

[slick8790]

1. Why on earth are we talking about putting a republican conservative on our ticket?

It is an affront to all of our principles as progressives and democrats.

[Gman]

3. The Democratic Party DOES NOT belong to so-called "progressives"

what don't people understand about that?

[slick8790]

10. So who does the Democratic party "belong" to?

Hagel is anti-choice, anti-gay rights, pro-drug war, pro-big oil, anti-environment, anti-universal healthcare, and pro-free trade.

Now just what part of that do you find acceptable in a vice-president? I am not a single issue voter, and I will not put someone that conservative a heartbeat away from the presidency.

So, ok, the Democratic party doesn't belong to progressives. Shouldn't it at least belong to, you know, DEMOCRATS?!

[polmaven]

49. I'm going to say that

many posters here would find a body part is the acceptable part.

It'sd really sad that so many would vote for a Republican male...as Republican as it gets...rather than for a Democratic woman.

Personally, I will support Senator Obama no matter who his running mate is, but I don't believe he will even consider abandoning Democrats that way.

[mod mom]

69. It's not just the male /female thing. I believe the Clintons are more intertwined

with corporate/special interest than Chuck Hagel (and I would never want him -think ES & S-to be VP)

[Gman]

50. Well, that's your opinion, and your opinion of Hagel...

I personally wouldn't paint Hagel that conservative especiallly since he's been a real big thorn in Bush/Cheney's sides over Iraq and other war related things. And I wouldn't at all call him anti- everything you say he is. That's very black and white.

The party belongs to progressives, liberals, moderates, DLC types, women's groups, pro-choice AND pro-life (there are some), GLBT groups, labor, Hispanics, AA's, anti- and pro-gun, etc., and other subdivisions of all of the above as well as others not mentioned.

We as a group like to pride ourselves in being able to see, define and refine gray areas in issues as opposed to the absolutes of the true RW.

Even Lieberman once called himself a Democrat and he was the VP choice and in general everyone in the party was OK with that. Lieberman has always been great on social and labor issues. 9/11 screwed up Lieberman and his allegiance to Israel has since colored much of what he does a dark shade. But he remains a good social liberal and good on labor issues. 2000 was a good time for Lieberman to be the VP pick. 2008 is not a good time for a Lieberman to be the VP pick.

So who would be a good pick? IMHO, Hillary as she brings the best balance of all to the spot. And that's just me.

[slick8790]

55. No, it is not my OPINION how conservative Hagel is.

He is right on one issue and one issue alone, and that is the war. Otherwise he's just as bad as any other repuke horror in the senate.

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Chuck_Hagel.htm

Perhaps take a look there. He is a conservative republican, and that is fact, not opinion.

[Gman]

67. Points well taken

I personally don't think Hagel is a serious contender for the VP slot anyway.

Hagel would bring a real counter balance to Obama were he to be chosen.

[NorthCarolina]

74. Well, thank god if that's "just you" as you say

I would hate to think that there were many more so called Democrats with that particular line of "thinking".

[madura]

71. and don't forget those election fraudulent machines. ES&S?

i think at the time he ran for office, he actually owned the company that counted the votes.
omfg.

there is no way he belongs anywhere near Obama.
his stench would taint

stick him somewhere else other than vp for the cuddly partisan ship purpose.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

7. I'm with you, but since its bandied about here I thought this was a good way to

put the matter in perspective. Put some numbers on the thing so folks who think the pug VP thing is crazy know they are not in the minority.

(I assume Clinton will get 85% in this poll, but I admit that I have been wrong before.)

[lojasmo]

19. She's not that bad.

Ba dun dun. I'm here all night, folks.

Seriously...neither.

[trueblue2007]

84. I refuse to vote for a GOP.

Something happens to Pres. Obama....and we have another horrible RePUKE.

I will NOT vote for Obama if he chooses a republican.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Hillary is pro-choice and she can be pro-LGBT when she puts her mind to it

Hagel is too much of a social conservative!

[AtomicKitten]

4. Neither.

[truebrit71]

6. Seconded.

.

[newmajority]

9. Thirded

One is a guaranteed loss. The other is an election stealing Repuke bastard. Neither is acceptable.

[NYC_SKP]

18. Fourthed.

I would prefer to win this election, thank you very much.

Very odd poll, by the way.

Fishy.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

22. Not odd at all. This is what the poll feature is for.

Do DUers really think Hagel is an acceptable choice or not? Not the best choice, but ven worthy of consideration.

I do not know the answer to that question.

Polling between Hagel and Biden or Hagel and Edwards would not answer the question.

Polling between Hagel and a disliked Democrat provides a more meaningful answer of whether he actually meets a MINIMAL standard.

And I posted this poll because I actually want to know the answer. I am genuinely curious.

[NYC_SKP]

42. Thank you for explaining your logic.

The lack of explanation in your OP makes the comparison seem gratuitous, or even nasty.

I don't know that the data will be very meaningful, however.

I'll tell you, I voted for Hagel.

I'm not one to allow a single issue to disqualify an otherwise honorable vp contender.

He's not my first choice, but his willingness to go against his own party line is impressive.

And, honestly, I have not and will probably never forgive the Clinton's for what I witnessed during his presidency and for the dirty tricks and divisive behavior during these primaries.

I believe Hagel is far more trustworthy, honest, and has more integrity.

Damage to Obama's chances with either of them is, I think, a tossup.

:hi:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

44. I intentionally left the OP blank to avoid push-polling effects

I aslo didn't do anything arch, like labeling them as D or R.

(And thanks for explaining your vote)

[DevonRex]

25. Fifthed.

[NYC_SKP]

43. Jen...the Fifth is supposed to go after the Fourth, which goes after the Third...

Gawwwwd!

:hi:

[DevonRex]

46. LOL. Well since K replied in there somewhere, I wasn't exactly

sure what to do. I am so confuuuuuussseeeeddd. :)

[zulchzulu]

39. Thank you

It's like choosing whether you want a needle in your eyes or a nail.

Hagel is a Repug. Hillary has Bill, who doesn't want to be vetted...

[Hekate]

5. Why are you promoting the political fortunes of a Republican, K&H?

Just asking.

Hekate

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

8. Please think Harder Hekate. I am anti-Hagel.

I think the pro-Hagel threads are insane, and the purpose of the poll is to demonstrate that those threads are not representative of general DU sentiment.

I expect (hope?) that even the hated Hillary will romp an anti-gay anti-choice pug in this poll.

And if not, that's sad but still worth knowing.

[Beacool]

12. Hated by a few and on the LF blogs, not the Democrats in the real world.

As for Hagel, I wouldn't vote for that guy for dogcatcher!!!!

[Fire_brand]

11. Poll: Tom Cruise or Kevin Garnett

since we're making polls for individuals who have no chance.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. Polls are to measure contemporary opinion, not just to predict

[Fire_brand]

23. contemporary opinons on things that are impossible are pointless

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

26. Tell that to a sociologist, psychologist or anthropologist

For that matter, both campaigns are polling people about their attitudes about off-shore drilling, and that sure won't make any difference.

But it is still interesting to know.

Half of politics involves people's opinions of things that are not going to happen.

Are people in Terra Haute afraid of a terrorist attack?

Do people believe in Hell?

Etc.

[Robeson]

76. Without a doubt, KG.

[PBS Poll-435]

13. Wow. People hate Hillary as much as they like Hagel?

What a world, what a world.

[DevonRex]

27. Hate has nothing to do with it in either case. It's just who brings what

to the ticket.

[PBS Poll-435]

LOL

And what does Hagel bring?

Scandal? Rumors? ES&S?

[DevonRex]

32. Don't remind me. Shudder. Yep, he brings repuke-ism to the

ticket alright.

I voted for Obama/Hillary, just so you know.

I think some folks may have been swayed by his stance against the Iraq war, which is a good thing. But, if you're not from Nebraska, you might not know all the negatives about him. I don't, I have to say. But several posters here have shared some of their knowledge about him and what I have read, I don't like.

Even if he were moderate on some vital issues, he still has that R behind his name and I don't want any R to be within a heartbeat of the WH.

Another thing, there have been so many pro-Hagel threads lately, by a very small number of posters, so some people may be buying into it.

I don't like the word hate being used because words have power, imo. That's all.

[PBS Poll-435]

35. I will use *Hate* than rather than hate.

Because it is most likely phony anyway.

This is a change election in an overwhelmingly Democratic year.

What do some want to do?

Put a freaking Republican a heartbeat away from the presidency.

We need a new acronym.

We know what PUMA means. What about the "Democrats" that want a Republican as VP?

SFB?

[DevonRex]

48. I know where you coming from, believe me. No republicans. Evah. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

14. Day-um! This is not what I expected. We'll see how it goes.

I wanted to assess whether the Hagel talk on DU is real, or an illusion created by a small but dedicated minority.

I assumed the later, but maybe I was wrong.

:shrug:

[PBS Poll-435]

20. This is EXACTLY what I expected.

The primary hate still rages among some.

So much so that they would put a anti-choice, election fraud Republican in the VP spot.

Paging Dr. Phil...

[Youphemism]

45. You chose two polarizing figures...

You need a third choice. Obama and a Cheese Sandwich would have been fine. Then you'd be able to filter out the "none of the above" factor.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

51. It was intentional. The question is whether Hagel meets a minimal standard.

A cheese sandwich would romp Clinton and Hagel both, so no real information there.

[leftynyc]

15. Anyone voting for Hagel is not a democrat

One look at his voting record regarding women would horrify any democrat.

[PBS Poll-435]

17. Hallelujah!

Someone gets it.


Hagel slid into his Senate seat with help from his ES&S.


FUCK Hagel and the horse (STOLEN) that he rode in on.

[leftynyc]

61. Okay - I'm lost

What is ES&S?

[PBS Poll-435]

63. Election Systems & Software

http://www.essvote.com/HTML/global_gateway/home.html


Chuck Hagel was CEO until he was elected to the Senate in 1996.

In 2007, California SOS Debra Bowen decertified ES&S machines for use in California Elections.

[leftynyc]

65. Ah - that explains a lot

Although I know he's from a fairly conservative state. Those who want him on the Democratic ticket are delusional.

[bowens43]

21. what a ridiculous poll.

[azmouse]

30. seconded

It's only being used to call out other DUers. No one seriously wants Hagel as VP.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

36. To call out DUers?

Statement: "no one seriously wants Hagel as VP"

How do we assess that statement?

Do doing a poll comparing him with an unpopular Dem.

If he loses to even an unpopular Dem then that supports your statement.

A poll with no push element to it whatsoever cannot "call out" anyone.

[azmouse]

37. bs.... you only started this to stir things up.

This thread is crap.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

41. I started it for two reasons

1) Sincere pursuit of knowledge. There are some folks boosting Hagel on DU and I do not know whether there is any actual support for him, or just a couple of enthusiasts.

2) If, as I would have guessed but didn't KNOW, Hagel got crushed in the poll, that would provide useful information as to how silly all this Hagel talk is.

[azmouse]

47. Do you really believe in these DU polls reflect reality?

Many will vote Hagel just to skew the results and try to piss you off.
I did't vote because I don't want either of them anywhere near the WH.
There was no way to vote for those of us who find both choices unacceptable.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

56. We all choose between unacceptable options every day

The point of the poll is not who you like, it is who you like more or dislike less.

Picking Lincoln Chaffe over Joe Lieberman in a poll (which I would) doesn't obligate me to marry Lincoln Chaffe or anything.

I would prefer BIDEN > CLINTON > CHAFFE > LIEBERMAN > HAGEL.

That doesn't mean I LIKE Lieberman. It just means that pro-choice is important to me.

I agree with your assessment of the value of DU polls, but one has to account for those effects in every DU poll.

If people are voting Hagel just to be obnoxious the fault lies with them, not me.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

85. If Obama

selects Hagel as his running mate would you still vote for him?

What if he selects Hillary?

It's simple. It isn't difficult to grasp. The OP is curious to see how many crazy people are here. If there are people voting for Hagel just to skew the poll than that means there are people doing that to all the polls on this site.

There are people on the DU who argue that Hagel would be acceptable. Haven't you seen them?

[azmouse]

90. I would vote for Obama regardless of who he choses as VP.

But I'll add I don't think the odds are great that it will be either of the two mentioned in this 'poll'.

As for those that think Hagel is acceptable... no, I haven't seen many of those posts. I must have those DUers on ignore.

[Youphemism]

53. Don't bother trying to convince those who want to be upset...

I just went through this in another thread, for posting nothing more than a link to a factual news article.

People get pretty emotional over this stuff.

[World Citizen]

24. i don't think this should be a discussion

If Obama can't win without Hagel then I don't think he can win with him either

[DevonRex]

28. Between those 2, it's obviously Hillary. Hagel is a republican. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

29. Good Answer.

[DevonRex]

34. Why thank you kind sir. :) nt

[newmajority]

31. To quote the Glimmer Twins

Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited* grafters
A choice of cancer or polio

(*Or pant-suited in Hillary's case?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGO-YrfLsPQ

[nsd]

33. I was prepared to call this poll ridiculous until I saw that 11 people voted for Hagel.

What are these people thinking? Sure, Hagel's been good on the Iraq war, but he's been bad about everything else. Except for foreign and national security policy, he's a conservative Republican. Why would we want to put him a heartbeat away? I've never been a big Clinton fan, but choosing Hagel over Clinton is mind-boggling.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

38. I'm surprised (and weirded out)

[DevonRex]

54. We may have a few pranksters at work, just trying to have fun

with your poll. Because when it comes right down to it, nobody would want a republican on the ticket. Just imagine what would happen if Obama were ill and the VP had to take over for a while. Perish the thought!

[NYC_SKP]

52. It's a "lesser of two evils" question for many of us, and....

...and it's easy to be cavalier in answering a DU poll about our preference between two unlikely vp picks.

Were we faced with the actual decision, and these were our only two choices?

We might make a different selection.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Yup. I agree.

I really can only attribute this Hagel-love to breathtaking ignorance. There's no other explanation. Or at least it's the most kind explanation.

[frogmarch]

40. Hagel's a feckin' republican!

Anyone who likes him because of his opposition to the war, should check his voting record. He's more republican than even many other republicanz are!

If Hagel were VP, he'd be sitting pretty to become president, and the last thing this country needs is another goddam republican president!

[JerseygirlCT]

57. Clinton

but to be honest, my answer would be just about anyone but Hagel.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. 20 idiots. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

66. 24 idiots. nt

[Maddy McCall]

81. 33 idiots.

[grantcart]

59. I actually like Hagel but consideration of him for VP is ridiculous and provocative

I wonder how many of those voting for Hagel in this poll are really trying to skew the results to make it appear that there is more animus against Senator Clinton than there really is.

Hagel's best position would be in defense where he could be very effective in eliminating so many of the useless defense projects (like the Osprey) that are costing us hundreds of billions but are questionable strategically and unlikely in tactical situations.

If however there was no real effort to trim what amounts to corporate welfare coming out of the Pentagon then Hagel would not really bring anything to that position that a Democrat could do and he could be Ambassador to the UN or another security related position.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

64. I suspect you are right, but I don't know of a less liked Dem here

Of people who have been discussed as VP, I assume Clinton and Hagel are the least popular here.

I tend to take polls seriously, and find difficult choices more interesting than easy choices.

I was writing somewhere about whether I would prefer Obama/Hagel or Obama/Romney, and I think I would have to lean a tiny bit toward Obama/Romney.

That doesn't mean I support either, of course. But it's an interesting thought experiment because there are several pro Hagel threads around here, which to me makes as much sense as pro-Romney threads.

The ultimate irony is that Hagel voted for the war and turned against it when it became a disaster, just like Clinton, Biden, Edwards, Kerry, etc. etc.

So I don't get the view that he's uniquely anti-war. He's uniquely anti-war for a Republican. That's like being uniquely articulate for a cat.

It's interesting, but hardly a reason to make a cat VP.

[grantcart]

73. Romney? lol Hagel hasn't been simply against the war he has been throwing grenades at Bush

including favorable statements about impeaching him


In the April edition of Esquire magazine, Hagel described Bush as someone who doesn’t believe he’s accountable to anyone. “He’s not accountable anymore, which isn’t totally true. You can impeach him, and before this is over, you might see calls for his impeachment. I don’t know. It depends on how this goes,” Hagel told the magazine.

“We have clearly a situation where the president has lost the confidence of the American people in his war effort,” Hagel said. “It is now time, going into the fifth year of that effort, for the Congress to step forward and be part of setting some boundaries and some conditions as to our involvement.”

This is not a monarchy,” he added, referring to the possibility that some lawmakers may seek impeachment. “There are ways to deal with it. And I would hope the president understands that.”

[QueenOfCalifornia]

88. So you

would vote for Hagel.

[ruggerson]

89. Unfortunately I think the animus is real

and more than a little obsessive.

[Youphemism]

62. Remember when lots of Hillary supporters were threatening to vote McCain?

Granted, there are still some out there, but many of them have gotten on board with Obama, and by the time it comes to pulling the lever in the voting both, I'd guess that quite a few more will.

My point is there's a big difference between clicking a meaningless polling button and actually voting.

The same thing you're surprised about -- that Hagel did so well in this poll -- is probably *why* he did so well... Nobody takes him as a serious contender for VP, but lots of people take Hillary as a serious contender. And some of those who take her as a serious contender aren't her biggest fans. It's not as if choosing Hagel in this poll makes him any more viable, nor as if anyone is accountable for the button they clicked.

I think I'll go have a cheese sandwich now.

[nam78_two]

68. Hagel?

:puke:

[madura]

70. both would be a pain in the ass for Obama. NO!

just silly to even entertain those thoughts. Obama is smarter thant that

[Colobo]

72. Clinton.

[Alexander]

75. Who in their right mind would vote for Hagel for VP?

Nobody.

[Stop Cornyn]

77. A worst-possible-VP poll? If not, how did it get down to a choice between Hillary and Hagel?

[Mz Pip]

78. NO Republicans

one heart beat away. I agree with Hagel about the war but he is far too conservative for me on most other issues.

[bigwillq]

79. The ticket with the Democrats on it.

I may not vote for Obama if he chooses Hagel.

[ruggerson]

80. 33 people pretending to be democrats eh?

[rucky]

82. This should be a no-brainer.

I'm going with the Dem.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

83. If Obama

Picks Hagel, I will not vote. And this is the very first time I have ever written or said this. I would not send in my ballot. Voting for Hagel is voting for a Republican and that I will not do.

NO REPUBLICANS... EVER.

[Zhade]

86. Why would he pick a conservative?

I support neither being on the ticket.

[adoraz]

87. 1/3 of us voted for him, so I'll say it.... Hagel

Hillary will cause us to lose. I can't imagine a worse running mate (from the Dem part at least).

Personally though, I really don't want either.

I really, really hope neither is on the ticket.