I know I never bring it up, and it's not the New Yorker, but let's talk education.

[ulysses]

I suspect that the schools will become a hot topic again in another month or so, and I have this feeling that we're going to be talking about vouchers. Call it a hunch.

So, what say you, DU? What's your prediction on the role vouchers will play into the fall and where do you stand?

[MichiganVote]

1. Talks cheap, takes money to buy vouchers and we don't have it in the US

That said, as the economy tanks and fewer people have $ for private schools, yes I daresay there will be a vocal segment who will receive lip service from McCain and about the same from Obama. McCain will try to smear Obama with it, and it could be the 'sneak' question in the debate.

Other than that the * administration is narrowing its focus on OIL for the OIL buddies.

[JoFerret]

19. Vouchers = subsidy for faith based schools

not better education .

[MichiganVote]

25. I never understand why the faith based parents don't understand or accept

why they must pay their own way for a private school for their kids. It boggles my brain.

[rucky]

2. Rich people want more welfare.

to send their kids to private school on the cheap.

[ulysses]

3. it'll be sold as a way to bridge the achievement gap for poor kids.

[rucky]

6. just like charter schools

and they've worked out so well for us. :eyes:

[ulysses]

10. you haven't noticed the huge difference they've made?

;-)

[JoFerret]

18. And it will be false

.

[ulysses]

20. well, sure.

Makes for great-sounding politics, though.

[JoFerret]

22. We need less focus on achievement and more focus

on learning.
The obsession with literacy and numeracy (at the expense of actual learning) is destroying kids minds and potential.

http://leading-learning.blogspot.com/search/label/teaching%20and%20learning

[LWolf]

4. Unfortunately, I think you are correct.

Even more unfortunately, I expect to see Democrats embrace this one.

This is the way the wind is blowing. down is up, right is left, and Democrats are on board with republican agendas.

:(

[ulysses]

7. yeah.

I've been bracing myself for a couple of weeks. I could see it couched as what we have to give up for some small reform of NCLB, but I'm not going to be surprised to see vouchers embraced.

[LWolf]

12. I think you nailed it up thread.

After the obvious failure of NCLB to "close the achievement gap," vouchers will be the "alternate solution."

In reality, NCLB has been a fabulous success, further degrading public education, and furthering the "failing schools" meme that will lead to vouchers.

Write a noble sounding piece of legislation that sets everyone up to fail, and what a tool it makes further down the road.

:grr:

Edited to add:

Could this possibly be a foretaste of what's coming?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3629273&mesg_id=3629273

[ulysses]

13. I suspect it is, yes.

And it'll be bipartisan, again.

[MichiganVote]

8. McSame promised vouchers to blacks during his NAACP speech.

I suppose all the Indians are going to get blankets too.

[LWolf]

11. I don't think it's going to matter who's doing the promising. n/t

[MichiganVote]

16. No, I don't think so either.

[sandyd921]

21. Yep, it looks like we're in for

more "republicrat" education "reform". Vouchers to supplement tuition costs at private schools for the well-off and poorly funded public schools as the dumping ground for all the kids the private and charter schools won't take.

[LWolf]

23. That's the key.

It will be promoted as a way to "close the achievement gap," but we know very well where that glass ceiling will appear.

That's the thing about public education: we serve ALL. We don't turn people away. Private schools have more freedom. Curricular freedom, instructional freedom, and enrollment discretion.

[ulysses]

24. I wonder if we could put together a little research.

Private school tuition levels...admission policies...that sort of thing. Of course, the argument will be that the market will fix everything.

[LWolf]

26. How's the market treating you these days?

Do you feel like it's "fixing" anything?

I think that's a good idea. I did something like it 20 years ago, for a college class. I visited all the private schools in my area, looked at cost, admission policies, and curriculum as research for a paper comparing local public schools.

I don't think I kept the paper. I remember that most of the private schools did not compare favorably.

The exceptions were the Montessori School, which did K-1, and the parochial high school.

[ulysses]

29. we'll get what we get for running schools on a business model.

I might make a few calls, get some numbers. I know the only private school for which I worked whose tuition would even be dented by an average voucher was the screwball fundie place five years ago. And I wouldn't school a dog there.

[LWolf]

30. I'm really tired of the business model.

Specifically, the factory business model.

There are many reasons why this isn't a valid model for public education. You know them.

If you do look into it, let me know what you find.

[ulysses]

31. I have a "free day" tomorrow.

Classes are over for the summer, and I *should* have the house to myself. I'll try to make a few calls. Not sure what I'll get from websites.

[ulysses]

32. holy shit.

Just checked out the private school I started with back in 1994. They work only with kids with learning disabilities & ADHD. It's a good school.

Tuition for the 2008-2009 academic year is $21,120 for Lower School students and $22,072 for Middle School and High School students.

:wow:

[LWolf]

35. Holy Shit is right.

There is no way a public school voucher will get a kid into that school. Even if they "scholarshipped" a few on the voucher, it wouldn't be make a dent into the number of learning disabled, ADHD, etc. kids that might want to spend their vouchers on a good school designed to serve them.

I'm betting you'll find things cheaper at small church schools that deliver a religion-based curriculum.

I'm curious about something else. State by state, and across the nation-
how many secular private schools vs religious schools? I've seen a huge range in quality in private religious schools, from the attic to the basement. How many offer comparable academic quality (not that what defines quality is agreed upon, lol) to a public school? Finally, what separates the priciest from the mid-level from the cheapest, in terms of program and academics?

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Well you know where I stand on vouchers

But I suspect we may have lost this battle.

I wish I had something hopeful to say. But I'm afraid our DC Dems have let us down on this one as well.

My only hopeful wish is that at the state level where I teach, the Democrats are largely adamantly opposed to vouchers. And increasing their numbers looks good in November.

[ulysses]

9. my hope is that,

once vouchers fail to make any kind of difference in the live of poor kids, we'll stop hearing so much about them. It won't be pretty until then, though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. And I will be long gone by then

I really feel for you young teachers. I have watched as public education has been slammed and teachers have been demoralized for nearly 30 years now. And it just gets worse. It was a respectable profession when I entered it. But now, it is everyone's favorite punching bag. Makes me so angry I cry.

And to top all of this political crap off, my district decided to throw out our contract on June 30. Negotiations are the worst they have been in 40 years. There is no solution in sight and also no line of teachers waiting to take our jobs if we are forced to start the year without a contract. It's a friggin mess.

[ulysses]

15. when I was younger, I wished to live in interesting times.

Got *that* wish. :eyes:

Wow, y'all are having a wild time over there. :hug:

[JoFerret]

17. No to vouchers. Repeal NCLB

Merit pay is another crap idea.

[NashVegas]

27. I Don't Like My Prediction, But I Can Hope For Surprise

My understanding is that Obama is friendly to vouchers.

[ulysses]

28. what I got from googling the topic

is that he hasn't taken a hard stance one way or the other. I think the door is definitely open, yes.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

34. He said that it was one of many things to be considered.

I personally don't even think he should be saying that but this is an area where teachers can educate him. I wouldn't characterize him as pro-voucher, though.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

33. Vouchers are a scam.

They take money from public schools and funnel it into the coffers of people like Neil Bush.