Kaine: "Marriage between a man and a woman is the building block of the family...

[IndianaJones]

and a keystone of our civil society. It has been so for centuries in societies around the world. I cannot agree with a court decision suddenly declaring that marriage must now be redefined to include unions between people of the same gender."



Ah, now I see why he's so popular.

[jefferson_dem]

1. Wow.

Nice to see you again. :hi:

[Faygo Kid]

2. OK. He's no longer viable. Never a top choice, anyway. But I want a link.

He's fine by me on many things, but I don't see what he brings to the ticket.

And if you have a link to that quote, I oppose him. But I want a link.

Still like Jim Webb, though, even if he says no.

[BlooInBloo]

3. 2nd the call for a link.

[jefferson_dem]

6. In 2005.

Some info here -- http://sicsempertyrannis.blogspot.com/2005/02/tim-kaine-and-gay-marriage.html

His position has since "evolved" -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/14/AR2006091401556.html

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

9. Webb holds the exact same position!!

[katandmoon]

12. Webb opposes gay marriage but says he supports gay civil unions

Kaine opposes both.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

14. It seems to me that Kaine has room for revision and learning. Webb also has a problem

with women. And he is a former Repuke. He's no more liberal than Kaine!

[katandmoon]

17. IOh, I don't like either Webb or Kaine

[ram2008]

4. "Kaine Says He Will Campaign Against Same-Sex Marriage Ban"

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) urged Virginians to vote against a proposed constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage and civil unions, saying the ballot question puts thousands of unmarried couples at risk of losing a slew of benefits.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/14/AR2006091401556.html

[thewiseguy]

5. Thanks for the link

[Faygo Kid]

7. Yes, thanks. I think Kaine is getting "the treatment" here tonight.

Maybe he doesn't demonstrate purity from the start, but I want to know where he is now.

[ram2008]

10. No problem..There's lots of disinformation going around

I'm just trying to make sure people know the facts and not distortions.

[Marrah_G]

13. Pretty clear

"This is language I don't feel comfortable putting into the constitution," said Kaine, who opposes gay marriage. "I'm married. You ask what the benefits of marriage are? They are infinite. . . . Unmarried individuals are not entitled to any of those?"

If Obama picks him I will shush, but I have to say I strongly disagree with this guys views on Abortion and Equal Rights.

[ram2008]

16. Obama is also against same-sex marriage

I feel like we shouldn't be basing our vote on the whole same-sex marriage issue. The point is they both are against a constitutional amendment and they both are for equal treatment of gays.

[katandmoon]

18. Isn't Obama OK w/civil unions? Kaine is not.

[Marrah_G]

21. And I have a problem with his stance on it also.

It doesn't mean I won't vote for the nominee, but I do strongly disagree with him.

Once upon a time, not so long ago, people were against his parents right to marry. I would think he would know better.

[katandmoon]

8. He is against the ban because it would affect unmarried hetero couples

He is against gay marriage and gay civil unions.

[IndianaJones]

23. I believe he is also against gays adopting children. nt

[onenote]

32. LINK?

Here is what Kaine actually has said:

"in the area of adoption, I think current Virginia law is fine, but Jerry has supported an effort that would change the standard from best interest of the child, to a standard that would require a litmus test and a searching governmental review of somebody’s sexual identity, and the prohibition that anybody who is gay or lesbian be able to adopt. That is wrong, and it is mean-spirited."


Virginia law currently allows unmarried individuals to adopt and does not ban adoption by gay individuals.

[Marrah_G]

11. Only because it would effect unmarried male/female couples.

[democrattotheend]

25. But maybe that's his way around the issue

Maybe that's the politically viable reason to do the right thing in opposing the bill in a state like Virginia. He probably knows that argument would have more sway than talking about gay rights.

[Marrah_G]

30. No- it's part of his belief system.

Saying "oh so and so doesn't "really" mean that is a really dangerous way to pick our politicians.

Would his being on the ticket make me not vote...no. But I do hope Obama picks someone less conservative.

[onenote]

39. Link?

[NorthCarolina]

15. Looks like all gays and progressives to the back of the bus once again

but don't forget to donate first.

[katandmoon]

19. BINGO

[depakid]

20. I would hope that the advisors are considering

whether they really want to open these cans or worms again....

[OHdem10]

22. Kaine has the values of most red state Dems. The Red State

Dems are going to be running things, so why complain.

This is what most of you wanted when I questioned this early
early on just as Primaries were starting.

[Skittles]

26. please don't call them VALUES

call them what they are - PREJUDICES

[Solon]

27. Exactly, prejudice and bigotry, no more, no less, I had it up to HERE, with these stupid fucking...

"values".

[Skittles]

28. YOU KNOW IT SOLON

I live in Texas and I call it like I see it

[Solon]

33. I live in Missouri, and I call it like I see it too, our Democratic candidate for Governor is a...

homophobic jackass, I already HAVE to vote for these assholes too often as it is, it pisses me off.

[IndianaJones]

40. hate to break it to you, but thats how most Democrats are. nt.

[Solon]

41. And that's one of the big reasons why I'll never be one...

I can't join a homophobic group, no way, no how.

[Hippo_Tron]

29. No, he has the exact same values as blue state Democrats

He just has to lie and use nuances in order to get elected in a red state. If Kaine had "red state values" he would save himself the hassle of trying to get himself elected as a Democrat and just be a Republican.

[Marrah_G]

31. Excusing our representatives stances by saying "they dont really mean that" is a dangerous practice

[Hippo_Tron]

35. How else do you propose one get elected in a red state?

It is literally impossible to talk like you're a Democrat from Massachusetts or California and get elected as a Democrat from Virginia. I've worked on campaigns for red state Democrats and nearly every single one of their staffers is liberal, especially on social issues. The candidate themselves behind closed doors also talks very differently than they do on the campaign trail.

[Marrah_G]

38. So do we throw darts at a board to decide if they are being honest or just playing the game?

It's a dangerous game.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. Politics is nothing but one big game

If you want absolute certainty that your candidate will reflect your values then you should run for office yourself. Otherwise there's really no other option but to make educated guesses about what will actually happen once a candidate is elected.

[Solon]

34. If he has to lie about it, that just makes it worse...

would you pretend to be a racist just to get along with racists?

[Hippo_Tron]

36. No, but I might pretend to do so to get elected Governor...

So that I could pass some good legislation once elected. LBJ pretended to be a racist to get elected and then signed the most important civil rights legislation in history.

[Solon]

37. There is no guarantee that Kain is another LBJ, and remember...

LBJ also got us involved in one of the worst wars Americans ever fought in, for, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. There's no guarantee of anything

Obama could pick Russ Feingold and there's no guarantee that Feingold wouldn't cave on a lot of issues when it's his turn in order to get elected. Frankly I'd be surprised if he didn't cave on at least a few things.

And Vietnam is irrelevant. My point was to demonstrate that red state Democrats pretending to be conservatives when they are really liberals is an age old practice and unfortunately an age old political necessity. Jimmy Carter was also less progressive as Governor of Georgia than he was as a Presidential candidate and President. Al Gore was very conservative during his time as a Tennessee Senator.

What I have come to determine is that in general, red state Democrats are just like blue state Democrats who have to lie about their position to be elected.

There are some notable exceptions. Bob Casey is someone who is undoubtedly anti-choice and that's something we knew he would never budge on due to his father's history. And Casey doesn't even represent a red state. His rhetoric and record make this stance abundantly clear.

Kaine's rhetoric on abortion rights is nuanced and convoluted which means he's trying to make as few commitments to the anti-choicers as possible without offending them. To me that's a dead giveaway that he's really pro choice and has national political ambitions but has been trying to keep that to himself. If he were really anti-choice he would've said he's 100% against abortion and for overturning Roe v Wade and that would've made his election a whole lot easier.

Frankly I'm not in love with all of this doublespeak either but as someone who studies politics pretty closely, I see no alternative to it. Pretty much every successful presidential candidate I can think of (especially every successful Democrat) has held some ambiguous positions to make themselves attractive to people on both sides of an issue.

[Solon]

44. The real question is whether this guy deserves to be on the national stage...

at this point in time, frankly, whether he is misrepresenting his true positions or not, the positions he's stated so far would point to him NOT being VP, nor on the national stage at this point.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. "Deserves" is a pretty subjective thing

Obama will do what every other presidential candidate in modern history has done and pick his running mate based on who he thinks will help his chances the most.

However in the current era, it's really hard to get a VP that can help you win. Generally a VP is more likely to hurt you than help you. Kaine is indeed somewhat of an unremarkable pick but the point is that he comes with no baggage and gives the press very few excuses to write process stories.

If Obama picks someone with extensive foreign policy/military background the press will go on for days about how Obama is making up for his own lack of experience. If he picks Hillary or a prominent Hillary supporter they will go on for days if not weeks about how the party isn't unified and he needs to unite the party. If he picks Richardson they will go on for days about the Hispanic vote, although frankly while that's a process story it's not a terrible one. But still, having the press stick to the message is better than VP process stories.

Picking Kaine is Obama's way of saying "I am perfectly capable of being president on my own and my running mate is my subordinate, not the other way around." Plus they do work well together and that does generate positive media coverage. Clinton/Gore was a successful ticket largely because they worked well together. Gore/Lieberman and Kerry/Edwards weren't good teams and that was evident.

Finally, Kaine will help in Virginia. He certainly won't guarantee it, because no running mate can deliver a state. But McSenile can't win without Virginia and so any little boost he gives Obama will force him to spend that much more money there.

[scheming daemons]

24. Wow... the guy knows how to win a red state...... let's tar and feather him.

[ccharles000]

43. To be fair Obama is also against marriage equality.

[Captain Angry]

48. I can't understand that.

It's so sad that people even think it's an issue. It should just be automatic. No vocabulary tests, civil union this, marriage that.

Just let two people that love each other get married. Period. It doesn't matter where they're from. It doesn't matter who their parents were. It doesn't matter what color their skin is. It doesn't matter what their economic status is. It doesn't matter what their sexual preference is.

They're people. Period.

If Senator Obama were to track me down since I donated a good chunk of money, and asked what my issue would be. It would probably be this. His current stance doesn't affect me or anybody I even know, but it bothers me that he can be right on so many things and so wrong on this.

[Hippo_Tron]

50. Politics is the art of getting more votes than the other guy

Even if you disagree with Obama's stance on gay marriage you are still going to vote for him. Meanwhile for everyone like you there's one or two voters who will vote for him so long as he isn't in favor of gay marriage.

Obama is a politician and that's the real explanation, plain and simple.

[Captain Angry]

51. Hmm...

Are you saying that you think that Obama is only against it for political reasons?

[Hippo_Tron]

53. Let me put it this way

I know lots of Democrats. Nearly all of them have no problem with gay marriage and that includes my grandmother who is in her 80's. The only ones that I know who do have a problem with it either hold public office or are running for public office.

Now personally I don't think there's anything about running for office that suddenly turns you into a homophobe but maybe that's just me.

[1776Forever]

46. Catholic and Evangelical pull - But what about the majority of Dem's - I say no - I say Biden!

:headbang:

[IndianaJones]

47. I'll take him over a southern bigot any day. nt.

[onenote]

52. The Joe Biden that supports "partial birth abortion" and opposes public funding for abortion?

So Kaine's views on abortion disqualify him, but not Biden?


Q: Are you still opposed to public funding for abortion?
A: I still am opposed to public funding for abortion. It goes to the question of whether or not you're going to impose a view to support something that is not a guaranteed right but an affirmative action to promote.

Source: Meet the Press: 2007 "Meet the Candidates" series Apr 29, 2007

Supports partial-birth abortion ban, but not undoing Roe
Q: You supported the ban on partial-birth abortions or late-term abortions.
A: I did and I do.

[thewiseguy]

54. They will do the same thing with Biden once he is close to the VP spot