Some people here are fighting for their lives

[ruggerson]

For the right for their families to be legal, equal and not second class.

For the right to have a government that does not pander to religious fundamentalists and uses frozen embryos to actually help people instead of mandating that they be discarded in the trash bin, so as not to "experiment" on them.

For the right of women to control their own bodies and make decisions with their doctors and not with government mandating their choices.

And some of you have the fucking nerve to question people who want more information when our nominee is on the verge of making a Veep selection that may affect all of our lives?

You insinuate that people who question and people who are seeking clarification are trying to undermine our nominee?

You aren't human beings. You're fucking Joe McCarthy redux. I'm ashamed some of you are my fellow Democrats.

[tazkcmo]

1. Your concern is noted.

sarcasm

[tazkcmo]

2. But seriously

I agree with you. Anytime someone doesn't follow lock step (a Repug trait) some folks here get pretty worked up.

[Colobo]

3. Rug, things will be alright. Have confidence in the future.

[JoFerret]

27. Not by faith alone

we won't.

[PurityOfEssence]

4. There are now two parties: the Party of Waaay Too Much Jesus, and the Party of Nothing But Jesus

Which one is which, you ask...

Well, pilgrim, I'm havin' a mite uh trouble figurin' it out m'self...

Is it just compensation, or is this what he really wants? Is he just lying to the conservatives to sucker them for their votes, or is this what he actually believes?

Dangerous stuff, that god-fearin'; it's got some unintended consequences, as the Forty Days of Faith and Family Cavalcade showed in South Carolina...

[JoFerret]

25. Well put

Scarey stuff.

Clinton pulled the same kind of crap with school prayer way back in olden times.

[Hippo_Tron]

5. And some people hurt their own cause because they have no political understanding

Pointing out all of the facts about Kaine is fine. But if you don't take into context that he was running in or representing a red state when he made all of those statements, you're not getting the full picture.

Lyndon Johnson was pro segregation when he was a Senator and then once he wasn't representing a southern state, he signed the most important civil rights legislation in history. Al Gore was extremely anti-gay when he was a Tennessee Senator. Not so much once he became Vice President.

If Kaine and other red state democrats were really and truly anti-gay and anti-choice they would be Republicans. In terms of pure political calculation, it's a lot harder to launch a political career as a member of the minority party in your state and up until now (and maybe even still) that has been the Democrats in Virginia. If you don't share the minority party's values then there's really almost no incentive not to go into politics with the majority party (the Republicans).

Unfortunately part of running in the minority party means if you want to be elected you have to lie to voters and tell them that you are anti-choice and anti-gay when really you aren't.

[ruggerson]

10. I've seen a number of people doing just that: pointing out facts

If he is against civil unions, he's way out of the mainstream of the Democratic party. Even the little fuckwad Bush is in favor of states enacting civil union legislation.

If he's against federal funding of stem cells, that concerns me even more, because there are way too many people waiting for a cure, and we're supposed to be the party of hope that will help them.

I'm reserving my judgement until I know more about him. But we have every right to research who this guy is and what he believes in, as he will be a heartbeat away from the oval office.

And, btw, I can think that Obama made a bad Veep selection and still vote for him. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Hippo_Tron]

13. My post wasn't directed at you, so much...

As those saying "I hope gays boycott the ticket if Kaine is chosen" or "women cannot support the ticket if Kaine is chosen".

The difference between Obama/Kaine and McCain/(insert asshole here) on a woman's right to choose would be the difference between night and day just like it was in '92 with Clinton/Gore and Bush/Quayle even though Al Gore had a pro-life socially conservative past. And I think that will be the case on gay rights as well.

I truly believe that Kaine's recorded statements on these issues are a result of him running a very tough race in what was quite a red state at a time. Furthermore he's not a hateful person and that's part of the reason I have a hard time believing he's truly anti-gay rights.

If Obama/Kaine results in a successful two term presidency for Obama I firmly believe that Kaine will fully support gay marriage when he runs 8 years from now. I also believe that will be the case for pretty much anybody Obama picks.

[SwampG8r]

19. McCain/(insert asshole here)

:spray:

[PurityOfEssence]

17. They're lying to someone; the theory is that it's not to us. Either way it's lying.

There's a constant and subversive snickering from the supporters accompanying so very many of Obama's moves to the effect that he's just taking the conservatives and moderates for a ride, and when we give him the mantle of power, he'll turn on them and fulfill our sneaky little dreams.

How do we know it's THEM he's deceiving? Besides "hope" (cringing, servile beseeching of a universe of our betters) and "faith" (obedience based on unsupported claims) we have not much of a voting record to cite. His tactical moves may not be stop-gap cleverness, but his true destination: corporate ultramoderation.

Not only is this founded on deception, it's founded on nothing at all; there's no evidence that Obama gives a hoot about keeping predatory lending in check, wants to halt foreign aggression, or will do much at all to redress corporate power. What we DO know is that he'll shove more religion down our throats than is currently being shoved, and that he'll make many grand gestures to accomodate those from whom he wants votes.

Once again: fine, he's the guy. That doesn't mean we have to blindly accept every move he makes, and that doesn't mean we should be in awe of his judgment. To be fair, his victory so far is not much to stir the spirit: he beat a candidate who was much reviled and who chose to run to the center before securing the primary vote, and even with all that, he barely put her away. That's not much to puff up and crow about, lest we forget.

Not only are his true motives a tad suspect, his tactics are not above reproach or, at the very least, reasonable suggestions.

This godcrap sucks, and even if it's some kind of grownup politicking that us mere naifs can't understand, it's still dangerous.

Look to the future: it's bad enough for him to welsh on various promises, but to weasel out of RELIGIOUS promises is serious trouble.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. Pointing out *all* the facts is impossible given finite time and bandwidth

Anyone who posts on a subject *has* to cherry-pick which facts they point out; there's nothing in itself wrong with cherry-picking facts.

But if I cherry-pick the facts to support a specific agenda that you disagree with then it's perfectly legitimate for you to object to what I've said, and call it biased, even though it was nothing but facts.

[scheming daemons]

6. Right.... and McCain and his party will serve those concerns SO much better

I agree... the only solution is to work to cut the knees out from under our nominee and his VP choice.


That will move you closer to your goals.


:sarcasm:

[JoFerret]

28. Irrelevant argument

No sarcasm.

[katandmoon]

7. Thank you -- the mindless Obama worship and the demands for obedience to him are frightening

[Skip Intro]

8. Hear Hear!!! The demanding of slient complaince is dangerous and un-Democratic.

It bothers me a little when a pubic servant, and supposed guardian of my rights, suddenly becomes above question. It should bother all of us.

[grantcart]

9. actually the only fight I see is between people who want to see what is factual

about Kaine and those that have a pre determined opinion and want to influence our opinion of him.


My impression of your posts is that you are in the former group but this post makes it seem like you have already have an opinion of Governor Kaine and are now searching for evidence to convict him. I hope that is not the case. Once a person is classified as homophobe in the Democratic Party his future career will be over. Is it wrong that before we hang such title on him that we check to see if it is something he said or something somebody has maliciously changed, especially since the Democratic Gay Alliance in Virginia considers him such a strong ally?



There are some here who have attacked Kaine as a proxy war against Obama pure and simple.


Legitimate posts, like the one on stem cell research, should be welcomed.


We should have an open mind and take in all the information about Governor Kaine with an open mind. Some of it is good and some of it will be a little disappointing.


If we criticize him for his stem cell stand should we not also praise him for his stand on capital punishment?

[ruggerson]

12. This OP

was in response to the predictable posts from people who can't let the primaries go.

For the record, I have clearly stated that Hillary is not my choice for Veep.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6492166

I actually liked the idea of Kaine until these issues arose. I also liked Webb, Schweitzer and Biden.

I think these are legitimate issues to discuss about someone who we are being asked to hire as Vice President. And to have motives impugned by fellow Democrats, and I use the term loosely, is both bizarre and depressing.

[grantcart]

18. oh now see I thought you were aiming at me lol

BTW if he picks Hillary I am fine too.

[Cha]

11. Don't worry ..I was ashamed of some of

you as fucking Democrats during the primaries.

[opihimoimoi]

14. Yes, and more than that....Many people here are concerned of our Human Future

Millions if not Billions are at stake

Our very existence is at stake

Climate change is here and is showing its ugly presence in the form of rising oceans, melting ice caps, which will trigger much misery/death with impacting food production, mega storms, droughts, etc

What are we Planning to contend? I don't see any concrete plans...only band aid shit...

stem cell research is being held back because of Bush and his religioud crowd...

When we finally get some results that save improve lives....we gonna hear it...What took so long..? Its gonna be on Bushies head...

[BeyondGeography]

15. You need to add some drama to your post

[ruggerson]

16. You're confusing disgust for drama

[JackORoses]

20. I think you need to post a few more threads bashing Kaine, nobody is getting the point yet

[ruggerson]

21. I think you need to take a course in remedial English

because you evidently don't have a rudimentary understanding of what the word "bashing" means.

[Skittles]

22. I HEAR YOU RUGGERSON

LOUD AND CLEAR

[TheKentuckian]

23. I don't see how anyone gets past

the near lock cinch fact that whatever turn off any one can get would be magnified by a McCain administration.

I can't find one single thing that I trust McCain with more than Obama...nothing. Even when they agree Obama has the superior approach to the same goal. No matter how you approach it you either vote for Obama or you vote for McCain, even if you sit home.

Well, fellow Democrats and Americans I have looked upon the McCain camp and it is so war mongering, beyond confessed, stupid, and lost that we all must accept that we have to prevent that bunch of idiots from running the country into the ground no matter what the flip/flop express actually believes in and goes with on a given day.

In my opinion even Republicans if they were responsible and love their country would pull the Straight Talk Express off the road. Until they have a reasonably lucid candidate with effective (no matter how evil) people around him, I'm forced to automatically go against McCain with all I have on the general principle of not allowing the country to crash and burn, regardless of political considerations. This isn't Reagan with early dementia but smart (no matter how twisted and wicked they may be) people like Baker, Darth Cheney, and Bush I around.

What we face here is a full on chaotic neocon administration, which is freaking scary. These people do unimaginable damage even with competent, hacks with a bunch of bunglers it makes me sick to my stomach and makes me want to cry.

[H2O Man]

26. Hopefully,

everyone here is fighting for their lives, and the lives of those around them. It would be great if we could all recognize that, and work in a coordinated effort.