Pentecostalism is a CULT, not a bonafide religion

[Hugabear]

Pentecostals teach that their members need to separate themselves from "the world". When I was growing up in a Pentecostal church, we were told that we shouldn't attend movies, high school football games, dances, or any other activities where "sinful people" congregated. Dating someone outside the church was a huge taboo.

A few years ago, when my mother decided she'd had enough of the church, she was subjected to horrible harassment from other church members. She was told that she was a backslider, that she would go to hell if she didn't repent and come back to church, etc.

Pentecostals practice activities such as "speaking in tongues", getting their congregations worked up into a frenzy. I have to admit, it's not that hard to get caught up in it. As a teenager, there were times when I found myself getting caught up in all that. Yes, there were times when I "spoke in tongues". However, even at that time, I realized that what I was doing was basically gibberish, that it was merely a result of endorphins flooding through my mind. The church leaders know this. They know what a powerful effect that can have on people. It's like a natural drug, and they count on their congregations to keep coming back to experience that over and over.

I shouldn't forget to mention that they require that church members hand over at LEAST 10% of their hard-earned paychecks in the form of tithes. Not paying your tithes is one of the worst sins you can commit in the Pentecostal church. And of course, that's just the tithes. They encourage you to give more than that in the offering plate. They don't care if people can't afford it. They always have somebody ready to testify about how they gave their last twenty dollars, that they had been saving for groceries, and that the very next day God 'miraculously' placed a hundred dollar bill in their mailbox. Of course these stories were probably BS, but you can imagine how vulnerable people could easily be manipulated by stories like that.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Sarah Palin is not a member of a church. She is a member of a CULT.

[ChazII]

1. Sounds like what I hear

from my Fundie Baptist coworker.

[Tesla]

6. My friends grew up in a Pentecostal church

the women had to sit in the back, wear dresses all the time, and were not allowed to cut their hair.
My friends were the wild children who sold pot while their mom was at Church all the time!
I grew up in a town full of them!
I can't believe the men I knew in those churches think a woman should have that much power!

[ingac70]

7. If they are Southern Baptist...

then they are in a cult. A very large cult, but a cult all the same. Nasty bunch of folks.

[Odin2005]

2. This Atheist doesn't see any difference. BS is BS.

From my point of view all religions are cults.

[Hugabear]

5. Characteristics of a cult

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

I don't think all "mainstream" religions fit these characteristics, but Pentecostals certainly fit almost ALL of these.

[ingac70]

8. That sounds like the Republican party.

lol.

[Bill McBlueState]

9. A cult is just

a religion that the person using the term doesn't like.

[Hugabear]

12. Read post #5

There are plenty of characteristics that cults exhibit.

I don't think that anyone would suggest that the Jim Jone's group, Koresh's Branch Davidians or the Heavens Gate people were mainstream religion.

[PassingFair]

45. Your characteristics can apply to MANY religious groups. Orthodox Jews, for example.

"Cults" are religions that have more
objectors than adherents.

[mopinko]

14. me too.

buddhists are maybe a little more realistic, tho some of them take it too far. if i ever get religion, i will be a buddhist.

[dchill]

40. Not ALL religions are BS!

I'm a Frisbeeterian - we believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof.

[spoony]

42. So you're voting for a cultist?

Odd that.

[northernsoul]

46. A bonafide religion is just a cult that's been around for a long time

and has a lot of members.

[TooRaLoo]

3. Agreed. I grew up in these churches. Rec'd. nt

[ingac70]

4. You would know better than anybody...

since you were subjected to it. Did your Mom leave when you were still a kid?

[Hugabear]

10. She left a few years ago

I pretty much stopped going once I was on my own. My parents moved to Texas several years ago, apparently the new church they started going to was particularly strict, and she just got fed up with it. They pretty much try to dictate every single aspect of your life - what you can and can't wear, absolutely no makeup, women are never allowed to cut their hair, etc. The harassment she was subjected to was absolutely horrible, there were many times when she would just break down and cry because of it.

Did you ever see the movie "Waterboy" with Adam Sandler? Remember his crazy mom, who said that everything was "the devil"? I know people from that church who really are that way.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

11. Years ago my baptist youth group went to a pentecostal service.

I was having a faith crisis at the time that eventually led me permanently (well, 30 years so far anyway) away from organized religion but at the time I was still trying to find answers within the religious framework.
I found this Pentecostal deal at the time to be very inviting. Everyone was jumping around and getting into it. Exciting stuff and I can see how some people get into it.
Luckily my non-joiner instincts once again steered me clear of getting involved.

[paparush]

13. We know people who are recovering pentacostals. Its truly a disease of the mind.

[and-justice-for-all]

15. Does that really apply across the board...

for Pentecostalism? I know some and they shop at Wal-Mart, goto the Mall..all of which is loaded with 'sin'. I was also informed that the Talkin' in tongues bullshit and the fish out of water escapades are left to the old school folks. Overall, they were trying to get away with the insane acts.

"they require that church members hand over at LEAST 10% of their hard-earned paychecks in the form of tithes." Robbing people of their incomes with bullshit, how sad.

[DemsUnited]

16. I have a question for you, Paint It Black: What does having a "servant's heart" mean?

I've heard Palin use the term herself, as well as religious supporters, and am not sure what it's supposed to signify.

[Hugabear]

18. Not really sure to be honest

There are terms and phrases that become 'en vogue' within churches, maybe this is one of them? They believe that their primary purpose on Earth is to serve God, so maybe that's where it comes in.

[Starry Messenger]

17. I recently discovered this resource.

http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian

Don't be put off by its blogroots...it's a good resource...and the author is a Kossack. This is where he posts his original research.

(replying to you, but meant for all reading the thread)

MPK

[Withywindle]

35. Dark_Christian is a community, not a single person's blog.

There are a lot of different kinds of posts there, of varying quality of research, but the mods are pretty strict about what's relevant. Good stuff. The idea is, rampant Christianity-bashing is NOT acceptable, but information about cultist attempts to take over our government is highly relevant and important.

The best poster there, Dogemperor--a walkaway from a similar cult to Palin's-- also posts his/her (? I don't know) research at Kos and a couple other places.

[Egnever]

19. They may be wacko but I support their right to be wacko.

[Hugabear]

22. They can believe what they want, but I don't want them running the country!

I would have no problem with them believing their nonsense, if they just kept to themselves.

But no. They aren't content to just keep to themselves. As I've already pointed out, they tend to harass anyone who tries to leave the church.

And now there appears to be an effort to get some of these extremists into politics, so they can install their brand of Christianity upon the rest of the nation.

[QC]

20. It's just a revival of the old Montanist heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism

[K8-EEE]

21. I think the reason Rev. Moon is such a good GOP insider

is that they use the friaking Moonie tactics to get elected....repitition, authoritarianism and fear fear fear. They're all culty. Remember all the "I know in my heart" shit about GWB??? How about bringing back knowing something in your BRAIN.

That church is Whack! CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT THOMAS JEFFERSON WOULD THINK? Bring back rational thinking to America!

[undeterred]

23. all those themes are right there in the bible

Its a matter of how much emphasis people put on them. The word tithe means to give 10% and it's pretty standard for churches to ask for that. But people have to make their own minds up and not be pressured into it. My mother doesn't go to church because of the tithe. She feels she can't afford it and she knows they're keeping track. How sad.

But there is a historical critical method for interpreting the Bible and their Pastors are not trained in it. They are very authoritarian and like to scare people and appeal to irrational fear. Speaking in tongues is totally irrational- it may be a real thing, but it isn't a rational behavior.

[mitchum]

24. It's all holy horseshit

[Frank Booth]

25. This line of attack will do nothing but blow up in our faces. You're not going to turn someone

to our side by calling Pentecostalism a cult, and you could piss of a lot of people for no reason.

I've known completely normal (though very religious) and friendly Pentecostals. Just because they do some strange things in the church does not mean that they're cult members, or at least any more than followers of a lot of other religions.

[Jane Austin]

30. I've known many like you describe.

Modern "Charismatics" are found in other mainline churches, too.

Once, when on a business trip to Jacksonville, FL, Mr. JaneAustin went to church at a big downtown Episcopal Church there.

Turns out it was a full bown Charismatic service, which surprised him a very great deal.

[MaraJade]

26. Watchout!

There are large numbers of black people who are Pentecostals. You are offending a large number of
people (including people like my 87-year-old mother) who went to church where "speaking in tongues"
was the way of worship. Also, the tithing ritual that you mention (giving the 10th part) is common
in churches that aren't even Pentecostal.

Very dangerous territory, my friend.

[Starry Messenger]

27. This should do your heart good then:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6

:hug:

MPK

[Hugabear]

28. Do these churches display the characteristics listed in post# 5?

Do they harass people who decide to leave the church?

Do they say that they are the ONLY ones who are right, and that everyone else is going to hell?

Do they stress the need for members to separate themselves from the rest of the world?

BTW, if you think that this OP is offensive, then you should probably stay away from the DU Religion/Theology forum. :freak:

[GeorgeGist]

44. Your mother is in very dangerous territory and

willful ignorance is not a valid excuse.

[AnnieBW]

29. The explaination of glossolalia from a Wiccan

It's pulling energy from your crown chakra - the one that takes in the Spirit energy - and moving it down into your body. In some people who aren't familiar with working with the chakras, it gets stuck at the throat chakra. That spirit energy comes out as intelligible sounds or, in some cases, language. The problem with a lot of Christians that do this is that they don't have a foundation in energy work the way that the Hindus, Buddhists, and Pagans do. They do energy work but don't ground it properly. They wind up either burning themselves out or going on massive power trips to fill that hole inside of themselves.

[Withywindle]

37. Ha!

Thank you so much for this post.

I went to Appalachian Pentecostal church as a kid, and got out of it pretty early on because of the authoritarian aspects. but later on, a few years after my Wiccan initiation when I did the Drawing Down the Moon for the first time, I definitely recognized the intensity of feeling--that wasn't emotion exactly, or adrenalin either, but something OTHER. I was so overjoyed to find it in a form that asked me to be *powerful* as a woman, not quiet in the back of the room with my body covered like it's something shameful.

Some 10 years later I got to spend a little time around a great-aunt of mine who's very experienced in Candomble (the NE Brazilian Afro-Caribbean syncretic religion) with my lapsed-Catholic mom translating English/Portuguese, and learned the experience of communing with the orixas is also similar--intense, body-wracking, you don't necessarily remember everything you said or did when that white light was in your head--but again, no demands to give up your autonomy or submit to anyone because of it.

[autorank]

31. Pentacostals are a religion, not a cult.

I don't care what church Sarah Palin goes to. The fact that she's a Pentacostal doesn't create
a problem with the religion and the religion doesn't confer any special position for her, just
as no candidate get's a free pass for their religion.

This threat stinks. It's very wrong. Read the first amendment. It's a strong statement on
tolerance.

Show some here.

[Hugabear]

32. Did you bother reading my entire post? Or did you just knee-jerk and hit 'reply'?

And read post #5 for a list of characteristics that make up a cult.

I'm not speaking from just what I've read online, I'm speaking from personal experience. Any group that tells its members to shun the outside world, and harasses anyone who tries to leave, that group is a cult in my book.

As far as the First Amendment, please show me where I said that they should be banned. Otherwise, you're introducing a strawman.

[autorank]

39. Your experience is not universal.

I've known plenty of Pentecostals, dealt with them personally and in business, and I do not experience
what you're talking about at all. In other words, I don't agree. I can't bring these people here
or show a video, but they exist.

There are plenty of religions that set themselves apart. I don't agree with that, but I'm not a member and they can do what they want.

As far as the first amendment goes, that was introduced to clam you want to ban them. I referenced that in terms of tolerance embedded in the constitution. No straw man intended nor do I think or mean to imply that you want them banned.

You seem to be saying - the religion is a cult, she's a member, therefore she's a cultist. To me, that's not really the issue with Palin. She's an opportunist, she's ill informed, she has political associations that are repellent, and a record that is remarkably flawed considering the short time she's been in politics.

There are bigger issues regarding Palin and raising them doesn't condemn and/or offend an entire group.

I think that you stated your case well, particularly considering the broad assertion, I simply don't agree for the above reasons.

Now I'll hit return.

[JNelson6563]

50. Yours is though.

The thing to remember here is that there's no way to know the workings of the more cult like religions without being on "the inside".

Casual acquaintance with members is the least effective way to learn about such groups. They always play a role of making their church look good. Perhaps even inviting to the would be recruit.

Julie

[Mimosa]

33. They used to be called "Holy Rollers"

Back in the old days in the South where I grew up they used to be called "Holy Rollers." That was because they blabbled (babbled) in 'tongues' and then fell to the floor and rolled around.

I never thought I'd see the day when they'd become mainstream. ~sob~

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. The only difference between a cult and a religion is respectability.

[Quantess]

38. In most cases, "respectability" comes in the form of political power and money.

[Quantess]

36. Remember the film "CARRIE" Sissy Spacek & John Travolta, 1978 or so...

In the movie, Carrie's mother was a religious-psycho-weirdo who made teen Carrie feel guilty for going through puberty. I remember the scene with crazy-religious mom screaming something like, "first the blood comes, then the boys!!"

Another scene was when Carrie's mom cursed at her daughter's breasts and called them "dirty pillows".

[PurityOfEssence]

41. A "religion" is nothing but a cult that made it

This is silly. The whole thing is silly. The very idea of ANY version of a Christian scoffing at a religion (much less a version of the same religion) as fantastical and rigged with mind and personality control as well as obscene monetary demands is just plain ridiculous. In a way, the snake-handlers and ravers are truer to the sheer lunacy of the belief than the calm, suburban protestants.

We've crossed the river into sheer lunacy where astrologists and palmists are now taken seriously. The pent-up disgust and outrage that many of us have at this dangerous folly being brought out into the public forum as something laudable makes it hard for many of us to hold our tongues.

[moriah]

43. I have family that are Assembly of God, too.

Just as I have family that are Church of Christ (not UCC, like Barack and Michelle, there is a very big difference).

And Southern Baptists. And Episcopalians. And Pagans, like me. Heck, there are even a few Catholics lurking on my maternal grandmother's side, the ones that held on to their Catholicism after coming to the New World from Germany.

I have seen bad and good in each religion. One of the CoC ministers I knew beat his wife and molested his daughters, all the while preaching against extramarital sex and violence from the pulpit. I had a dollar a week allowance, so every Sunday I tithed a dime, and got mocked by the other kids there because their parents were giving them $10 and $20 to put in the offering plate.

Yes, "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is every bit as weird as snake-handling or some of the other questionable religious practices. But ... they are still religions. I can't call the Assembly of God practitioners "cultists" unless I'm also going to call my own religion a "cult", and the fact others call my religion a cult doesn't mean it is one. Hell, I'll even call Scientology a religion. Remember that it is a cult according to many, including the nation of Germany, where it is outlawed.

After reading this you may decide that I don't necessarily disagree with you except on nomenclature, especially with my statement about $cientology. And you very well may be right.

But I feel faith is very personal and is not something that others have a right to judge for other people. You have made your judgment for yourself, as is your right. I've made my judgment for myself. So have my aunt and uncle (well, technically they are my first cousins once removed, but hey...), who attend an Assembly of God church. But you know what's interesting? They have been the two family members who have shown the most acceptance for my religion, and they've never tried to convert me.

Funny, huh?

[donheld]

47. Tell me which one is NOT a cult

Are there any real bonafide religions?

[AngryAmish]

48. That is why Rev. Al Sharpton is no longer a Pentacostal minister

He left them in the early 90s.

[WA98070]

49. Continue insulting persons of faith and see where that gets you. Palin may have beliefs outside ...

your boundaries but once you rely on faith you are outside of logic anyway.

If you have specific examples that's one thing but attacking a religion as a "Cult" might help unite others around her.

I often hear many protestants referring to Catholicism, Mormanism among others as cults.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

[phleshdef]

51. Well, there are different levels of extremism in the pentecostal movement...

I grew up in that kind of church and the church I grew up in was not nearly as extreme as some of the other like minded churches I visited.

For instance, the church I grew up in didn't tell people how to dress, had no problems with what music you listened to or what movies you watched. Tithing (paying 10% to the church) was encouraged but certainly not required. That church didn't care if you gave a dime, you were accepted regardless. But the charismatic style of service, the speaking in tongues, teaching about the rapture, faith healing... all that stuff was still a part of the church's core beliefs.

But there were other pentecostal churches of the same belief that wouldn't allow women to cut their hair, wear pants or put on make-up. You couldn't be a member if you didn't tithe. Homosexuals were treated as something worse than murderers... it was some crazy stuff.

I think the argument of "cultism" could be made for a LOT of different denominations. But pentecostalism is a pretty broad category with many different subfactions.

On a personal note, I don't belong to any organized religion anymore, but the church I grew up in actually did me a lot of good. The church had a great youth program that gave me and other teenagers things to do that didn't involve getting in trouble. A strong message of compassion, charity and empathy was pushed every service and in a lot of ways, I think having those ideals instilled in me are a big part of my path to becoming a liberal as I started exploring my own political feelings.