Well, it happened. I had a Blow UP with a McCain Palin supporter at the local breakfast joint -

[debbierlus]

I did not start it.

I have a pleasant, friendly acquaintance with this guy. He works for the local gas company and he does the shut off for people who don't pay their bills (he does it in a gentle way, and he usually gives them a chance or two to pay out for their bills, he doesn't lord it over people at all, which is why our acquaintance has been pleasant'. He is usually pretty decent, and he doesn't like Bush. But, ever since this election, he has been on & on & on about how Obama is a Muslim, and he is a McCain man. I have tried to dispel the myths but he won't hear any of it.

Today, I came in and saw him. Frankly, I didn't want to discuss politics, I am royally pissed off right now at the ignorant Americans who won't get their head out of their asses and I know my temper is short. So, I just waved. I ordered my breakfast, and started reading the paper....

'How you like the next Vice President' (Palin)...

I just looked over my paper and said, Friggin Lovely.

My husband stated that he didn't believe that McCain could actually find someone worse then him to put on the ticket, but he succeeded.

He states - I like everything about her.

I piped in - brilliant Jon. A woman who believes the earth is 6000 years old.

He fires back. 'Democratic lies'.

My husband says - let's just not talk about this....

So, we return to having our breakfast and a few minutes later he comes up and says maybe he is jaded by all the poor people who don't pay their gas bills. My husband starts to lose it. He tells him, you know, maybe you should vote McCain because you definitely will ensure your job security because many more people will need to have their gas shut off with a McCain Presidency.

He fires back that all these 'people' don't take responsibility.

I say...Jon, you hate Bush. 90% of the time Jon. Votes with Bush 90% of the time.

Then, he mumbles some nonsense about surviving two terms of the Clinton administration.

I then say; it is NOT the poor of this country we can't afford, it is the rich. Look at Freddie & Fannie. You are talking about the poorest people well the wealthiest rob this nation blind.

He tells me that Fannie & Freddie are all the dems fault because the dems chair the banking committee. He tells me it is the welfare queens...

I blew up. 'Let me tell you something. I was a 'welfare' queen. I received AFDC and food stamps while I went to college to get my nursing degree when I was young. And, all those programs are now GONE. I told him that the Republicans scape goat the poor and rob you blind.

My husband was stronger. 'It was nice knowing you Jon. You go ahead and vote to destroy my country, but I won't go ahead and vote to destroy yours.

I looked at him and said. PARTY OF HATE.

He walked away and didn't say anything else.

[AspenRose]

1. Wow.

That's just sad on so many levels.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Ouch. Sad We've Come To This.

But good job holding your ground.

[debbierlus]

22. I am very upset about this election. I am SO sick of fighting people to HELP them

I did feel pretty badly about this all morning. I like this fellow. However, I will not abide ANYONE insulting my beliefs and calling the democrats (and me) a liar. And, this guy KNOWS how strongly I feel about this subject.

It was a deliberate taunt.

My husband says from now on - he is simply going to say 'Aren't you embarrassed and ashamed to admit that you would actually vote Republican? How much longer are you going to be played a fool?'

Reason does not work.

They are being played. However, my sympathy has reached its end. THEY are the problem.

[Fire1]

86. HERE, HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am with you 100%!! I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL!!!! I was SO GLAD to find this site, I could feel my blood pressure dropping. Some of these repukes don't have two quarters to rub together, but are voting republican OUT OF SHEER SPITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gort]

112. As Harry Truman said:

'How many times do you have to be hit over the head until you figure out who's hitting you?'

[villager]

3. out of curiosity -- what neck of the woods is this?

n/t

[debbierlus]

Western Ma Berkshires - Blue County Blue State and the Racism is UGLY

I have no doubt Obama will win MA, but I am deeply disappointed with the racist comments I have heard, and the general level of ignorance has been astounding.

[NotThisTime]

102. Grew up there, I know the level of ignorance for which you speak. I'm sorry you had to go through

that

[Aviation Pro]

4. I sadly have to say that this is not an election but a civil war....

.....we are a nation divided (look at the polls) and whichever side wins will not have the support of 49.999% (or 51% if the Republicants steal it again) of the populace.

What a long, sad, stupid year.

[AspenRose]

8. Yep...so much anger on both sides just under the surface

and so many stupid and/or evil influences willing to exploit that anger

[1Hippiechick]

11. As I have said many times....the revolution has begun...nonviolent at present. n/t

[Miss Chybil]

91. The anger was not under the surface at the GOP convention.

It was front and center and it was stoked. Just as it's been stoked for the last eight years and then this fuck McCain comes out and says he wants everybody to play nice. He's going to make everything better. Right.

[lostnotforgotten]

10. Reminds Me Of 2000 and 2004 - This Divisiveness Is All Part Of The Republican Plan

It is the only they can win.

They know it.

We know it.

The general public is the one left clueless.

[bdamomma]

36. they are playing us all

dividing us into blue and red states, liberal and conservative.

sad, we need to rise above all this.

[1Hippiechick]

12. It is to corrupt corporate America's benefit for us to STAY a nation divided - they're scared of O's

UNIFYING the people!

[Ganja Ninja]

16. Maybe it is time to break this country up.

Quite frankly I'm as sick of this as I can get. I don't want to live around these people anymore. Let them have their own country and we'll have ours. Good Riddance!

[Doremus]

21. I'm all for it but southern govts would never go along. They would lose the teat they've been

sucking on all these years.

They contribute far less to the treasury than they receive back in earmarks and all the rest.

Southern RWers believe in personal responsibility -- for everyone else but themselves.

[Ganja Ninja]

24. I know the types. Git-er-done assholes.

They plow along working their asses off until the day they can't and then they have their hand out just like any body else.

[Doremus]

Yep! Both hands out while screaming about welfare queens.

It's EVERYBODY ELSE who's the problem, never themselves, because, by god, THEY earned every nickel.

Positively puke-worthy. :puke:

[dana_b]

60. exactly - the bigger and, usually Bluer, states pay for them

the Repubs have done a number on most of the people there and it's very sad.

[villager]

29. When the economy and ecosystem implode past the ability to keep the lies going, we'll get

a half a dozen or so small republics where old America used to be.

At least, a couple of them might be Republics. The theocratic areas, I'm not so sure...

[krabigirl]

65. California could secede! LOL. The Repugs in OC and Riverside could move to AZ. Fine with me.

[TooRaLoo]

84. Don't forget Oceanside.

:toast:

[Miss Chybil]

93. Hell no! We don't want anymore Republicans in Arizona! nt

[MadMaddie]

113. I have come to the same conclusion at the pace we are going

we will never, ever see eye to eye.

The Repugs want a Theocracy.
The Repugs want to gut all civil rights
The Repugs will force women to adhere to extreme laws concerning their bodies.
They want a Facist Corporate State
They do not want to help the poor or less fortunate.
They don't care if Health care is unaffordable
They revel in war
They revel in destroying the environment
They feel they are above the law


We simply don't believe in those things.

We are in fact two seperate bodies already, why not make it official?

[krabigirl]

64. Yep, and I think it's worse than 2000 or 2004.

[mnhtnbb]

73. Civil war divided families. I've broken off communication with my SIL

(whom I've known 40+ years)over her disrespect for my political position. Both my brother and his wife
are rabid Repubs.

[TexasLady]

5. Half the nation are composed of idiots

Looks like the media is doing it's job. Glad I'm on the intelligent team.

Well done.

[tridim]

6. They've learned nothing these past 8 years.

I know, because my Mom is one of them. It sucks when someone you love is being so willfully ignorant.

[BumRushDaShow]

7. The stages of grief...

Denial, anger, depression, resolution. There are many who are still in denial but fortunately a growing number of depressed, unemployed foreclosed repukes are finally waking up, have stopped spouting meaningless talking points, and are planning to vote for Obama. I've met a few.

[Blue_Roses]

9. I know the feeling...the fundies are out in full force arrogance today...

I got an email from my BIL (a fundie) chock full of lies and I sent him one back saying "bullshit" and take me off your email list. Then I sent a second with the facts after linking him to factcheck.org.

I try to ignore his shitty emails but this was the last straw.:argh:

guess my sister will be mad at me now...I lost my temper and I had been so good about talking rationally about these issues. This is getting ugly.

[chatnoir]

40. I just got sth today from a cousin

A mass email about Obama saying the US was not a Christian nation and was about to reply with the factcheck link but damn, is it even worth it? These ppl are so willingly ignorant... I usually ignore her emails about this crap.

[Straight Shooter]

13. I understand. When Democrats reach the end of their rope, they tie a knot and hang on.

When Repubs reach the end of their rope, they make a noose and hang it around somebody else's neck.

:hug:

[Ganja Ninja]

14. There's a perfect example of why a lot people vote GOP.

They do it just to piss off all the people that are smart enough not to.

[bdamomma]

38. ....................

true.

[nichomachus]

15. You cannot reason with someone who did not arrive at their position through reasoning

Go to the board and write that 500 times.

These people live in a fantasy world of their own creation. They are living there willingly. They do not want to be reasoned out of it. You are frustrating yourself and wasting your breath.

You might as well go downtown and argue with a guy pushing a shopping cart and ranting about Martians stealing his stuff.

[KathieG]

42. Well said...I agree

I live in a VERY republican area and I found out the hard way that most of these people are not rational. They are living inside of the matrix...they are lost in their delusions.

[The Wizard]

107. Talking reason and logic with these weirdos

is like pissing into the wind. Don't waste your time. I tell them I stopped voting Republican when I stopped using mind altering dangerous drugs.

[Sukie]

17. Well Done!

Isn't it almost beyond ridiculous trying to reason with people who have their facts so wrong? Good for hubby and you. Couldn't have been easy.

[BeFree]

18. Me too

Ended up telling the guy "You really are whacked out" and walked away.

It's getting ugly. Hell, they ARE ugly. We're just reflecting back on them what we hear.

[trueblue2007]

19. I love you and your husband!!!

I'm sending you virtual hugs, chocolate, roses and $5 million dollars as a reward!!!

You and your hubby rock! I hope when I get in conversations in the future, I can be as articulate as you two.


I'm shoring up lots of info in emails so when my fundie/GOPigs friends send me stuff...I can debunk it.

[debbierlus]

50. Thanks. I feel really crummy though. I am learning that facts don't mean much.

I always provide reliable source materials in my postings and emails.

But, you know what?

Facts seem irrelevant.

My new tactic is - wow, you are going to let them make a fool of you, AGAIN. The same Rove team who brought you George W Bush, Cowboy, now bring you; John McCain, Maverick. And, you are actually going to believe it?

Really?

I guess there is one born every minute.

[mitchum]

59. The only important fact is that Good Ol' Jon is just a goddamn racist

no other facts will change that

[debbierlus]

61. I think it goes beyond racism --- but that too

[treestar]

68. It's amazing that he's not a sexist, too, though

It will be fun challenging a few of them by asking them, "so now are you a feminist?" :rofl:

[mitchum]

70. But for a bigot, the bond of race is stronger than the bond of gender

something tells me that Good Ol' Jon still despises the "welfare" more than he does the "queen"

[Shine]

20. Whew, sounds rough. I'm glad you held your ground, though.

It's sad that some people just don't get it, no matter how much info is out there.

They just won't let facts get in the way of what they believe. :eyes:

Our task is to hold the vision and not allow ourselves to get disheartened. You are not alone. :hug:

[slackmaster]

23. Your reply "Brilliant Jon" could reasonably be construed as a personal attack

So actually, you did start it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. I disagree. Sounds to me like the other person was itching to get into it with the...

"How you like the next VP" comment.

I've been in situations like this and there is virtually no way out. Even when you don't respond or try to change the subject they goad you on that. It's maddening. I could absolutely visualize this conversation transpiring as I read it.

[slackmaster]

39. There are plenty of ways to respond to that kind of thing without impugning someone's intelligence

:argh:

[Pacifist Patriot]

56. Sounds like you and I use the word "brilliant" differently in this context.

I didn't take it as a direct jab impugning his intelligence. In the dialogue described above, use of the word "brilliant" is akin to "Great Joe" or "Fabulous Mike" or "Right Steve" or someother lead in phrase. I think you are reading more into it than was intended.

[slackmaster]

58. You may be right

My perception based on reading text over the Internet may be very different from what the recipient felt in context.

Talking politics over breakfast always carries risk.

[debbierlus]

31. No. I didn't. He knows full well how I feel. And, he state how do you feel about the NEXT

Vice President...

It was a taunt.

[wicket]

43. I agree with you

You didn't do anything wrong.

[treestar]

69. Oh come on

Jon started talking about politics in that smart ass way repukes do - How do you like our next VP? knowing full well the OP did not agree.

[slackmaster]

71. I wasn't there, and my reply was based on my initial interpretation of what I read in the OP

Did anyone ever mention to you, when you were a child, that it takes two to make a fight?

[texas1928]

26. I know, it is frustrating. See what I posted in the Texas Forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=180&topic_id=53204&mesg_id=53204

[demo dutch]

27. Can't have an honest political debate anymore, people take it personally, what a shame!

[blossomstar]

28. Faux News dead head.

I have one for you... My dear friend and neighbor who is gay said "I don't know if I can vote for a black man". I almost had stroke. Literally. WTF?

[bdamomma]

44. tell your gay friend that McCain is not his friend.

[AtomicKitten]

30. I think the spewing of venom has less to do with the candidates and more to do with ideology.

In other words, some Republicans sweep all Democrats in a neat pile so they can hate them all. No muss, no fuss.

Same bullshit, different election.

[trashcanistanista]

32. I'm seeing it too and don't quite know how to deal with it.

This is in California. "Muslim" means Black. Period. They are democrats/indies who "don't quite like" Obama. There's just "something about him". Palin gave them an excuse to vote more "progressively" an excuse, for a woman. They are so overjoyed to have this out and not be called on their racism that they don't even bother to find out anything about her. They take her on face value because thank god now, they are relieved to have someone to vote for without having to be faced with voting for a Black man and being called on their racism. It is very ugly. I let these people go, can't reason with them. They know I don't want to embarrass them.

[debbierlus]

55. If they are truly democrats, banning abortion in the case of incest & rape

And, believing that the earth is 6000 years old, it should be enough to give them serious pause.

If not, they are no democrat.

[orwell]

33. Welfare Queen or Warfare King

"Welfare" represents 1% of the US Budget:

http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html

The military, with expenditures for both current operations, intelligence and equipment and past military costs such as current veteran's benefits and interest on the past debt associated with the military, by some accounts, represents over 50% of the current budget.

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

The "welfare queen" argument has been cleverly marketed by the Repugnants as a dog whistle campaign for the racist vote. It has been very effective. Next time someone throws the wefare argument in your face, bring up the 1% figure. It usually ends that line of attack fairly quickly.

[bdamomma]

34. one thing, he referred to the Clinton Administration

was he surviving during that time, didn't he have more money to fill up his gas tank and didn't gas cost less? and a number of issues that we were doing much better then, than what how we doing today.

This is a class war, ideological too.

but in your last comment you notice when you hit these people with the truth they back off, cause they don't have the legs to stand on, or the facts to stand on.

[OHDEM]

35. Sorry to make sweeping judgements, but Republicans are...

assholes! I have many in my family & friends & I love them, but when it comes to politics they are total jerks. They are the ones who always bring up politics until you're forced to be an asshole, too!

For instance, we're at a 1 year old's birthday & this woman, we call her "loud girl", keeps asking everyone (loudly) "So, who is everyone voting for?" Nobody & I mean NOBODY is even answering her because we've heard her politics before & know she's a right-winger. She's doing this in a mixed group of people that included my in-laws & the baby's grandparents all of whom are Democrats! When nobody would take the bait, she started asked my MIL personal questions about her life, unbringing, etc. MY MIL is an Italian immigrant who had a tough life & doesn't talk about some things. (She lost both parents in WWII, but even her kids don't know most details.) She's so annoying, but I know lots of folks like loud girl & they're all Republicans!

You did the exact right thing! You tried to stay away from it knowing HE couldn't be civil & when he pushed his luck, you told him THE TRUTH. That's what we have to do I'm afraid. I'm sure you're a very lovely person & deserve better than he behaved.

[AuntPatsy]

37. Some people are just weak minded and easily influenced and I believe it has something to

do with their inner feelings of insecurities, it's easier to blame others for your own obvious short comings..it makes them feel better...its why they choose to believe even when its proven its all lies.

[bdamomma]

41. but isn't it sad that they do not realize how everything has

deterioriated under bushco, the Constitution, but then again how many of these people even care about the Constitution or if we are being spied upon in our own government. Ignorance is mankinds downfall. Heard that and will never forget it.

or this slogan I heard:

Americans are the biggest BS'ers and the easiest to BS.


I would love for some day we would not be taken in by all this BS.............sigh

[AuntPatsy]

47. They will just take another prescribed pill given by their family physcian and all

will be well.....I think this country is being purposely drugged up in order to aid in controlling the massess and for those not playing along with that scheme there is always their local preacher ensuring they fear hell if they don't vote for the conservative hate machine....


Thankfully not all Americans are easy to bs or they would be much further ahead then they are and they wouldn't be having to fight for complete control of the media in order to garner more support that they know they do not have.

[The Wizard]

109. Brave New World

The author of which died November 22, 1963, and no one noticed.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

45. I know it will happen sooner or later

even in blue California. When someone asks me what I think of the Republican VP nominee, I'm just gonna say, "I don't know yet - what do YOU think?" When that person says, "She's awesome - she's really shaking up the party and making McCain's numbers go up," I'll just say, "True enough." And that will be the end of it because I don't want to take blood pressure medicine. :yoiks:

[bdamomma]

52. say well who is front runner, McCain or Palin

or do they realize that this woman is against abortion in all cases, cut funding for Spec Needs Kids in her state by 62%, kills wolves by shooting them, wants to drill drill drill, oh, nevermind they never like getting the facts.

[gauguin57]

46. He "likes everything about" Palin?

So, he likes serial liars and hypocrites, then?

"Democratic lies"?

Oh, good lord. Tell him to turn the channel away from Fox News for 5 seconds and get in touch with REALITY!

[debbierlus]

51. He listens to Rush.

[amber_86]

48. WOW!!!!

[marlakay]

49. People view things for their own life experiences

this man viewed the poor as people not willing to work and therefore blamed them when he turned off the power. I think he had to do that not to feel bad about what he was doing. I can't imagine having that job.

He knows deep deep down that what you are saying is right but he will never admit it because then he would have to change jobs.

And you know the saying how the few ruin it for the many. I think that is true of welfare. The few that used to have more and more kids just to get more money before they changed the rules to have a max, the few who wouldn't work if you offered it, the republicans like to shine a huge spotlight on those people and say, see welfare doesn't work.

You are the product of where it does work. I have never been on welfare but for 9 months during a time my ex was off work in early 80's recession I was on food stamps. From then until now I have so much compassion for people on them, you are treated like shit at the store with dirty looks like you are trash. People look at everything you buy like if it doesn't fit their perfect idea of what you should get you are bad very bad.

I am kind of worried about the election now only because its not about issues anymore, what McCain did was change it to personalities like Bush did.

[debbierlus]

53. Thanks for your response. I was thinking the same thing.

He has to justify his job, so he blames the poor.

It is sad.

[Gregorian]

54. Even if it's blowing up, it's the beginning of dialog.

Twenty years from now we'll be saying these things to each other on a regular basis. It won't require blowing up.

Blowing up is the result of lack of, or refusal of, communication. Then what follows is frustration. That's pretty typical.

So I say that you deserve credit for your bravery to expose yourself.

I have always believed that those who frown upon what you did are holding the process back.

Let's get it out.

[mitchum]

57. How does Jon feel about...y'know..."those people"?

Methinks that despite Jon's hatred of bush, he now loves McCain/Palin because he just can't bring himself to vote for one of "those people"
Methinks that good ol' Jon is a racist motherfucker.

[Carolina]

62. my answer to all low info

lower socioeconomic repukes is to say go ahead vote McCain-Palin; since you can really :sarcasm: identify with a man who got into the Naval Academy because of his Grandad & Dad (kinda like Bush and Yale with George HW and Prescott), who considers $5 million middle class, who married an gazillion-heiress, who has more homes than he can count, who was a player in the savings and loan scandal that your tax dollars helped bailout (talk about welfare queen), who cheated on his first wife mutliple times, who admits he doesn't know much about economics...

[barack the house]

63. We should be more persuading than confronting every vote counts really.

[zulchzulu]

66. Karma will slap this guy into next week soon enough...

Let him rot.

[lolamio]

67. That's really hard. I am sorry you had to deal with it, but you handled yourself well.

:hug:

[unapatriciated]

72. Since Palin was announced I have had two similar experiences at work.....

Two women I work with are McCain supporters one is my supervisor.
They both know that I support Obama.
For some reason they thought the Palin pick would change my opinion.
My supervisor stated to me "You just gotta love that Sarah Palin"
I respond with no and stated the many reasons why.
She stated she "prayed for me and my liberal ways every day"
I told her it wasn't needed and she repeated it two more times.
I so wanted to tell here off but couldn't because I was working and customers were close enough to hear us.
The next day a fellow employee stated how great Palin is and how every woman needed to vote for her. I said not this one and again repeated the many reason why.
Another Supervisor over heard me and reprimanded me for talking politics on the job, while the person who started the conversation walked away all smiles.

I will be keeping my mouth shut at work since I'm not independently wealthy and government programs have all but disappeared.

[mnhtnbb]

74. That's tough. It's so condescending when these fundie types say

they will pray for you. Makes you want to tell them to pray for wisdom for themselves.

[unapatriciated]

75. I have had my fill of them...

In the early 90's my 13 year old son became very ill, my stepson (28 yrs old) came to the hospital with his wife. They wanted to pray over him stating he was being punished for my sins.
I was not born again so God was punishing me through my son
They had no regard for my son or the effect their words had on him.
So I really can't stand fundies, the rest of us are evil in their eyes.

[mnhtnbb]

81. Ooh. Fundie family is worse than a co-worker. I probably would have

told them they could leave the hospital room and not return.

[unapatriciated]

105. I did that ....

but as soon as we found out my son's illness would be long term, fundie family hubby wanted a divorce, He had a few bucks and did not want to risk being responsible for a child who was not his.
He had been in my son's life sice he was three.

[mnhtnbb]

106. I'm so sorry. That's a real a$$hole.

[jberryhill]

76. My atheist uncle used to say...

"Don't involve me in your madness."

[mnhtnbb]

82. That's good.

:rofl:

[debbierlus]

79. These women should be ashamed of themselves...try this:

I will not vote for any woman who believes the earth is only 6000 years old, advocates ending safe legal abortion even in the case of incest and rape, lies about her record, and doesn't believe Global Warming is caused by human factors...I don't vote on ovaries. I vote on policy and record.

Eight years of Republican hell, and THIS is all it takes to fool you. Really? Wow. I would be embarrassed to admit that...

I should probably start praying for you.

[DangerDave921]

77. My sister is a RW'er

She said the other night she has a "girl crush" on Palin. Just totally enamored.

My sister also got an abortion once when she found out her baby had Down's Syndrome. The fact that Palin kept her baby moves her no end.

[debbierlus]

78. Palin is a liar, & a neoconservative wackjob -

Does she know that Palin would take away her right to abortion, if SHE had the choice?

Even if she was raped?

Or, it was a product of incest?

I am sorry that you have to deal with that...bad enough with acquaintances.

[DangerDave921]

101. Don't be sorry at all

My sister and I are close. I don't let politics interfere with the really important things in life, i.e., family. She's a great person really. Just sees things differently than me on politics.

[RagAss]

80. You wasted your time...The man is a racist.

[TooRaLoo]

83. *wince*

Wow. Sorry to hear that. :hug:

[Danger Mouse]

85. I had a nasty argument with an ex-gf over this. She's a hardcore bush lover...

and she started frothing at the mouth, throwing around Sand-N***er in reference to Arabs and crazed shit like that.
I was furious.

[abumbyanyothername]

87. Let's take a cue from the top -- BHO himself

Talking point #1 -- This election will not be won by converting anyone. For whatever reason, pubs seem to like bringing up politics in the presence of people with whom they disagree. Personally, I think that this is because the ego feeds on opposition, and they don't really have any other way of being in the world other than ego (many of us suffer the same defect).

Talking point #2 -- This election is about revving up participation big time and perhaps picking up a few more, or perhaps just the same number of swing voters.

Talking point #3 -- Attraction not promotion. To everyone on this thread who has had a falling out over this election, I suggest you first think of a topic that you can converse civilly with these people about and then go and apologize for your side of the argument. Don't push politics on these people at all, and if THEY bring up politics simply remain completely silent until they start on a different subject. Which they will, since these types cannot tolerate silence.

Talking point #4 -- If you really get the urge to be political in this season, try and find someone who hasn't participated in the past, and talk with them about participating. Don't cram it down their throats, just talk it up.

If you must talk politics with you former adversaries:

Talking point #4 -- When you have cooled down enough to talk civilly about politics, if you so desire, emphasize that you can live with whoever wins (because, really, you can) but you hope that whoever wins it will be someone with a big vision of a UNITED states of America, One Nation, Indivisible. Talk about how tired you are of red state, blue state mentality and about how we all have so much more in common than different. LOOK for the values and beliefs that you share with these people. BE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT AMERICA COULD BE LIKE UNITED UNDER A CANDIDATE THAT INSPIRES RADICAL CHANGES IN ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOR.

Talking point #5 -- Talk about what you like about Sarah Palin -- that she is a working mom (or you could even say a mom who works outside of the home, since ALL moms are working moms), that she went right back to work after her baby was born, that her husband quit his job to stay home with the kids. (These are all points that should rub the wrong way with conservatives, but the tactic is to frame them as total positives -- because they are.)

Talking point #6 -- Ask them what the most important issue is to them. Probably national security or family values. Say well no wonder we disagree, because I think energy and the economy are most important.

In short, as supporters we should support what the man is standing for -- UNITY.

The more we focus on and talk about what we don't like, the more we cause it to manifest itself into existence. We had a war on poverty, we still have poverty. We had a war on drugs, we still have drugs. We had a war on terror, we still have terror. Just pay attention to and talk about the positives. That might even convert someone, but probably no more than one out of 100 or less.

[Atman]

88. What's really sad is that story sounds so true, and so common.

We've all seen the so-called "bouncy stories" about some absurd confrontation with the lady in checkout line or whatever. But this one has a serious ring of truth to it. Because I've seen it, too.

What you have to recognize and be prepared for are well demonstrated in that post...

He fires back that all these 'people' don't take responsibility.

I say...Jon, you hate Bush. 90% of the time Jon. Votes with Bush 90% of the time.

Then, he mumbles some nonsense about surviving two terms of the Clinton administration.

How many of us HAVEN'T encountered that in conversation during the last eight years? Whenever the seat gets hot, it turns to how the storyteller somehow "suffered" under the Clinton years of growth and surplus. It's all they've got left. Deflection and deception.

It's a very sad op, unfortunately. Because Americans really ARE that stupid.

.

[Dem_4_Life]

89. wow...You said it.

I love what you said about job security for him. So true.

[opihimoimoi]

90. Maybe the guy should see his hero in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naXqE4dTxPA&NR=1

[Stand and Fight]

92. Good on you.

It's about time we start to take these folks to the woodshed. They have distorted and backwards views of this nation and the world. We cannot continue to be polite in the face of such abject and hideous stupidity. All the facts are out there for people like this, but being intellectually lazy, they'd rather fall back on the idiotic fail-safes of "welfare mommas" and "wretched poor." Good on you for standing up to this nonsense. Good on you and your hubby!

[mhatrw]

94. How many are voting to go down with the ship?

Sad.

[Number23]

95. "The Republicans scape goat the poor and rob you blind. "

You deserve a great big Kick and Rec just for that line!

[and-justice-for-all]

96. That is EXACTLY how they need to be handled too!..

no fucking mercy.

He hates shrub, but does not see the striking resemblance between shrub and McCorpse. That is because they guy gets all his info from Fixed news or one of the other shit for news channels.

Good for you for letting him have it!

[rucky]

97. They put people in difficult positions, then blame them for being there.

[my3boyz]

98. Thank you for standing up to him. My stepfather

has been having trouble with his neighbor. The neighbor saw him in an Obama shirt a while back and will not leave it alone. Everytime my stepdad steps out the door the man starts up by saying Obama will raise your taxes. My stepdad finally told him the other day that he did not want to talk to him about it anymore.

[Girlieman]

99. Sad

I suspect that your friend is basically a decent guy and probably wants the best for the country. He probably wants pretty much the same things for this country as you and I. It's sad that his head has been stuffed with wrong information and is so full of it that there is almost no room for anything else.

The only way to reach somebody like your friend is to get him to talk his own way into seeing things correctly. You can't change anybody's mind, but I don't think Jon's mind needs to be changed, he just has to come to understand the disconnect between his mind and his opinions. If you let Jon talk, and redirect him gently with questions, easy, calm, non argumentative questions, you can probably get him to see things as they are.

Confrontation merely gets people to put up their defenses.

[cabbage08]

100. wow

[Vinnie From Indy]

103. Rush Limbaugh and AM Hate Radio are the cause of much of this

I am convinced that the constant drumbeat lies, hate, fear and propaganda of Clear Channels extremist right wing radio programs across America are the cause of so many people believing this BS.

Until Dems commit to fighting Limbuagh and his ilk, it will not change.

[Fire1]

104. Blood pressure down yet?

Just checking on you. Don't let 'em rattle you (for your sake). Keep your head up!

[kwenu]

108. Sounds like he had issues and was looking for a scapegoat to me. Hope your day got better.

[Missouri Girl]

110. This seems to be a common characteristic among Repugs.

My hubby and I have friends and family who are, unfortunately, very republican. They know that we are Dems and they too, seem to have a real perverse need to taunt and make smart ass remarks, send the stupid chain e-mails, etc. They are the school yard bullies.

I'm actually more liberal than my hubby, but I'm not comfortable confronting. I tend to ignore the comments or delete the e-mails. But, hubby - he will take so much and then he will unload on them. And, when he does it, they back the "F" off for awhile anyway.

I wish that I was a little more confrontational sometimes. Congrats on what you did...you probably didn't change his mind, but you made a great stand!

[Faygo Kid]

111. Ditch him. Lose him. Let him wallow with Hannity. Bring a gun to a knife fight.

I have lost friends of 30 years during Bush's administration. They would kill or jail us in a minute. Screw that. They think they can smugly bring up their hate because Limbaugh/Hannity tells them they can.

Then they get surprised by pushback. Well, let's push back harder and tougher than their talking points tell them to do.

[mvd]

114. I have to deal with my fundie house cleaner who comes once a month

She mentioned going to a Palin rally, and I just looked at her and said "I'm not discussing politics" and go upstairs. Some people just will not believe the truth or make excuses (my mom said she said Palin had a "lot of difficult things to deal with" when Palin's teenage daughter's pregnancy was mentioned.) I'm afraid that the Repukes have divided this country so much that relationships/friendships/acquaintanceships are in jeopardy,