Barack there are plenty of MATH AND SCIENCE grads .. .what happened to them

[thunder rising]

outsourcing, onshoring, H1-B?

Protect American Engineers and Scientists and protect American

[Barack_America]

1. However, there isn't a great interest among American students to go into PhD programs.

Honestly, I think this speaks more to our lack of education employing critical thinking, but...

[thunder rising]

4. Fuck you ... if you can't get hired as an BS or MS what the fuck is a Ph.D. gonna do?

[Barack_America]

7. Why the hostility? I'm merely stating a fact. And, please, Americans have an incredible advantage

in getting jobs in science. Those advantages are built into the NIH funding system. The fact is that most American science grads are more interested in careers in medicine, business, what have you, rather than academic science.

Are you an academic scientist? I am.

[thunder rising]

9. No, you are a trolll period 'nuf said Anybody with a question this is a foreign agent

whether citizen or not.

[thunder rising]

10. FYI: TBP TX Theta

[Bill McBlueState]

12. Are you drunk? n/t

[thunder rising]

25. Yes! Sorry I had to listen to McCain

[Barack_America]

13. Lol. Yes I am certainly a troll. Grow up. You simply don't understand academic science.

I am in a training program that ONLY US citizens are eligible for.

I have a special training grant that ONLY US citizens can receive.

The NIH has introduced many incentives to lure US students into academic science. And, in applying for faculty positions, that advantage continues.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about and lashing out and acting like an ass isn't going to change that.

[thunder rising]

18. And you do not know what TBP is do you? moran

[JVS]

20. Tau Beta Pi IIRC. It means you're an engineer.

[Barack_America]

23. And do you know what MSTP is?

Here's a hint, it's available to US citizens and permanent residents ONLY.

[thunder rising]

41. So you can update our military hardware and keep our nation safe? not!

[Barack_America]

51. Hmm. I guess nobody gives a shit about curing cancer anymore.

It's all terra, terra, terra now, I guess.

[LooseWilly]

75. Uhhmm

Without health insurance, a cure for cancer is irrelevant. I couldn't afford it.

Death, on the other hand, is a very cost effective retirement plan.

[Egnever]

103. wow cool a scientist

Thats sexy!

[Midlodemocrat]

19. Back off. Kristi isn't the troll here.

You're behaving like an idiot. You owe her an apology.

[Barack_America]

28. Thanks. It's kind of odd to have someone come in and suggest I don't know my own field.

Bizarre.

[thunder rising]

37. Really .. and yet you still post no references.

[Barack_America]

48. Check out the following NIH Programs:

MSTP, NRSA, K08, etc.

http://grants.nih.gov/training/F_files_nrsa.htm

http://grants.nih.gov/training/careerdevelopmentawards.htm

All funding opportunities, designed to create more American Phd's, available to US citizens or permanent residents ONLY.

[LooseWilly]

52. He's already said he's drunk.

Maybe that doesn't carry much weight with some people... but as a career drunk, who only has a minor in CS, and gets hostile when his work income evaporates faster than the liquor in his system... well... I say give Thunder some slack.

And for all those who might be thinking of bashing me for standing up for drunks... well, I'll be drunk by the time you do... so feel free.

(Though, yeah, Thunder is being kind of a dick... but these things happen when the drink is brought into play)

[thunder rising]

58. I'm so deprived ... living on the water in W Pam Beach ... fuck I just want somebody to cover me

when I'm old.

[LooseWilly]

66. We'd all like that...

... but most of us will probably be better off resigning ourselves to just working until we, one sunny day, just drop dead.

Hell, once the jobs are outsourced, then the company just moves assets to another subsidiary, declares bankruptcy, and then dumps retirement into the lap of the Feds who drop it like a burning bag of shit....


Have another drink. Personally, my retirement plan is liver damage...

[U4ikLefty]

38. Please prove the "fact" that more American science grads are

"more interested" in medicine, business, "what have you" (WTF is that occupation?)

[Barack_America]

59. Here you go.

In 1966, U.S.-born white males received 71 percent of science and engineering PhDs, U.S.-born females earned 6 percent of those degrees, and foreign-born students received 23 percent of those doctorates. By the year 2000, U.S.-born white males received just 35 percent of science and engineering PhDs, while 25 percent of those doctorates were awarded to females and 39 percent to foreign-born students. In Where Do New U.S.-Trained Science-Engineering PhDs Come From? (NBER Working Paper No.10554) authors Richard Freeman, Emily Jin, and Chia-Yu Shen also find that between 1970 and 2000 there was a huge increase in the number of science and engineering PhDs with undergraduate degrees from foreign institutions.

Among U.S. citizens, there has been a substantial upward trend in the proportion of PhDs granted to minorities: Asians and Pacific Islanders, blacks, and Hispanics. They earned fewer than 3 percent of all PhDs granted to Americans in 1966, and 9 percent of those degrees in 2000. In the case of science and engineering PhDs only, minorities increased their share of the PhDs received by U.S. citizens to 2.7 percent in 2000, compared to a negligible number in 1973. But their PhD share remains well below their share of the total population.

The authors note that "there is no clear explanation why women and minorities have chosen science and engineering PhDs in increasing numbers while fewer white men have gone on to earn science and engineering PhDs." One possibility is that they find these degrees financially more attractive. But this demographic group is also entering medical and law schools in greater number. So "it cannot be much of the story," the authors write.

One reason for the pickup in foreign students, particularly those with foreign bachelors' degrees, is that they often can earn much more from a U.S. doctorate than from working in other careers in their native country. That's in part because the science and engineering doctorate opens the door to working in the United States or working for U.S. and other multinational firms.American students, the authors write, have other diverse U.S. educational prospects, such as medical school, law school, and business school, and they can work as scientists or engineers without obtaining a PhD. So, they have less incentive to invest in a science and engineering PhD than comparable foreigners with undergraduate degrees.

http://www.nber.org/digest/jan05/w10554.html

[ContinentalOp]

78. WTF are you talking about? Academia? That's not the issue with H1Bs

What about working, middle-aged engineers who get laid off so the company can hire somebody on an H1B visa who will work for a fraction of the cost and essentially be enslaved to the company via their visa?

[Barack_America]

85. Plenty of H1Bs in academia. Postdocs, Research associates...

Almost a majority of these positions are now held by H1B's.

[thunder rising]

94. co-sponsored by their host country ... too bad you're American.

Just think, a 3rd world decimated the US engineering corps in 20 years. It's done. For all the genius marketing, financial, and legal professionals ... protect this country with great advertisements and lawsuits when the next rounds of bombs fall.

[Barack_America]

96. The point is, at least in academia, foreign nationals tend to get stuck in mid-level positions.

They don't often elevate to tenure-track positioning. At least in academia, the NIH-based funding still gives the edge to Americans. This is basically the entire point I've been trying to make to you in this thread.

[LooseWilly]

99. And, outside Academia?

I think that was Thunder's whole point in this thread.... nice of you to defend Academia from a charge that sounded like it was aimed at the outside-academia world though...

[Teaser]

88. Chicks man. Us Ph.D.s score like Gretzky.

.

[PVnRT]

17. Why?

What if you just don't want to get a PhD? What if you can't hack it?

Your comment is idiotic. Do you know the work and sacrifice and knowledge needed to get a science/engineering PhD? It's not for everyone, and the lack of a PhD doesn't mean you can't think critically.

[Barack_America]

26. Um, I'm in a PhD program now.

So, yeah, I'm familiar.

And the breakdown of my PhD program is about 50% US students and 50% foreign students. And I'm at one of the top schools more desirable to American students. Where I did my masters it was more 25% American and 75% foreign nationals. There are not enough American students interested in the biological sciences to fill the available PhD positions. That's the bottom line. If US students want to go on to a terminal degree, it's more likely to be an MD or DDS. And FWIW, I'm earning an MD too, so I'm familiar with the "type" of student interested in those careers. I live in both worlds, so I can attest to the fact that it's a completely different way of thinking. Medical school is memorization and regurgitation whereas graduate school is critical thinking and analysis. That's just the way it is.

As for science techs, most of those positions do go to Americans. There's little competition for those positions as foreign nationals normally come here for terminal degrees.

ETA: And the lack of critical thinking-based education was not to say that Americans CANNOT do these jobs, it's to say that Americans by and large are not INTERESTED in doing them.

[PVnRT]

30. So...

you're lazy if you don't want a PhD? Unable to think for yourself?

Not everyone needs a PhD to get a job. In fact, for most, it would make you grossly overqualified. Why do you feel the need to insult those who chose not to get one?

[Barack_America]

35. Um, I wasn't. You consider an MD an insult?

I stated that most high-performing US students in the biological sciences. are more attracted to medical school than to graduate school. That is a fact. I speculated that might be that American students are not as interested in the style of thinking that academic science requires. That speculation stems from observing my classmates in both medical and graduate schools.

That's it.

[jberryhill]

105. You are exactly right - I heard "overqualified" a lot when I was between jobs

Just TRY looking for a job seeking a BSEE when you have a Ph.d.

"Oh, you're way overqualified for this position, sorry."

Uhmmm... at the time, I was trying to "qualify" to buy groceries.

[thunder rising]

36. "Americans by and large are not INTERESTED in doing them.", thx needs to be brought out

[Barack_America]

39. Lol. That you're even arguing this tells me IMMEDIATELY that you are not currently in a PhD program

This is fact, buddy.

There is federal funding available to American PhD students in the sciences that makes professors fight for them. But, more students are interested in going into medical school rather than science.

Sorry, fact.

[thunder rising]

44. Let's face it .. .education is nowhere. If McCain is elected we may as well take up mowing lawns ..

but then that's the illegal aliens

[moc]

84. I thought there was also a problem with a glut of PhDs and not enough academic positions to take

them all?

(FWIW, I am an academic - 16 years post doctorate; currently tenured faculty. My immediate family is loaded with PhDs, mostly physical sciences - both parents, three of my siblings - plus a couple of MDs and an MD/PhD. So, I have more than a passing familiarity with life in academia.)

My recollection when I was finishing grad school was how hard it was for many PhDs to find tenure track jobs. My sister (PhD in biochem, post-doc in cell biology) had to apply to something like 50-60 jobs before she landed a tenure track job. A good friend with a PhD in developmental psych had to apply to upwards of 80-90 jobs before getting one, and this was after having done her doctoral work with one of the leading developmental psychologists in the country and a post-doc with one of the other leading dev psychs. She was well trained and yet couldn't find a job. She did eventually get one, but it definitely is not a "research I" university.

One of the side effects of lack of tenure track slots is that many PhDs spent their lives as never-ending postdocs, never getting to launch as an independent scientist and never making more $$ than slave wages.

I'm fortunate in that my "pond" as a public health academic researcher is much smaller (i.e. there's not as much a glut of PhDs as the physical sciences or social sciences). I applied for 4 tenure track jobs and was offered 3 of them.

Granted, those of my "generation" of doctoral graduates finished 15+ years ago. Has it changed that much, though? I thought it was still hard to find tenure track jobs in physical sciences.

[Barack_America]

86. Still tough, but due to NIH funding restrictions and not H1B's.

Americans still have a decided advantage in securing tenure-track positions.

It is still a brutal market, but it has much more to do with attitudes towards the importance of science in this country, than it does people coming in from other countries.

[moc]

89. delete; dupe

isp hiccup.

[moc]

90. Unfortunately, NIH funding issues are making it harder as well.

(I'm not talking about foreign vs. American advantage, just faculty positions in general.)

Most universities are moving toward requiring a higher and higher proportion of salary coverage from grant funding. And I'm not just talking about private universities; this includes state schools. This is just the reality of how university budgets work - it's all about the indirect cost recovery, baby. Universities have fewer "hard money" funds to support faculty so they resort to either stretching it and requiring tenure track to cover more and more of their salary or they expand faculty through soft money only. TT may have 3-4 years of coverage before they are expected to have the grant funding to cover their salary. The alternative is a 3-3 teaching load (never getting any research done) or losing your job. Many TT positions have guidelines that you must have RO1 funding in order to get promoted and tenured.

But the current NIH funding environment is brutal. Experienced investigators with long histories of funding are getting streamlined. Funding levels are so low as to be ludicrous. It's started to swing back ever so slowly, but it's still brutal.

So, honestly, I can see why someone would hesitate to prepare for a career in academia. The preparation is long, the financial rewards aren't great, and job security is hard to come by.

Remind me again why I went into academia? LOL! :-D Actually, I've been very fortunate. After spending my first 6 years post grad in a soft money shark pit of a university, I was lucky to land a TT job that's 100% hard money. I'm not going to die wealthy, but we make a good living. I also say that I "pay for my freedom". I make less than an MD, but I have a hell of a lot more flexibility in my job both in terms of work hours/location and what I choose to do research on. But, I also recognize that positions like mine are few and far between.

[Barack_America]

91. That's really interesting.

Thanks for that perspective.

I'm at one of the big East Coast powerhouses and, if you can believe it, they're up to 2 RO1's for guaranteed tenure here. It's ridiculous and one of the main reasons that I'm planning on leaning more on my MD and not going into academic research. But I've got a bit of time yet before I'd go on the job market, so we'll see what an Obama administration will do for the NIH. ;)

[moc]

93. Shit. That's insane. :-O

There's not enough prestige in the world that would get me to take a job in a place like that. I was at Hopkins, btw, and the best line I ever heard someone say once was "Hopkins is a great place to be from", as in, it's not a great place to be. Believe me, going to a university that may not have the same level of prestige as a Hopkins or Harvard but still does quality research has done wonders for my quality of life. It was the best thing I ever did. I also think I do higher quality research where I am now because it's a more supportive environment. After a while, the prestige of being at the hot shit university in your field doesn't make up for the way they can grind you down.

Good luck to you!

[Blondiegrrl]

29. I'd love to get a Ph.D. Hell, I'd love to get a Master's.

But I can't afford it. I'm working two jobs just to pay my mortgage (on a $55,000 house, at that) and utilities. I might be able to get a scholarship, but again, if I did that, I'd have to quit one of my jobs to go back to school, which means I'd have to decide what utility to neglect paying each month.

Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of "interest."

[Barack_America]

31. Are you in the sciences? nt

[Blondiegrrl]

83. No, my degree is in liberal arts. If I had it to do over again, I would have

gone into a science field -- wildlife biology or some sort of environmental studies. I'm not sure whether a Ph.D. would help in that line of work?

[Barack_America]

87. Yeah. I don't deny that you all have a much harder path.

In the end, it's all about fields that can "generate money". But I'm sure you're already all to familiar with that BS.

[Blondiegrrl]

92. Yeah, I agree. My husband *just* got a better-paying, job, though.

He's nearly doubling his pay (up till now he couldn't find a job that paid more than $20,000 -- we live in WV, that's why) -- so things are finally looking up. If we can get Barack into the White House, then perhaps my dream of going back to school will come closer to reality.

[thunder rising]

34. If you get one ... there's a foreign H1-B (temporary visa) will work for less than your mortgage

[kristopher]

61. Many grad programs fund their students.

Rent your house if you have to move closer to the school.

Determination is a large part of the process if you aren't wealthy.

[thunder rising]

71. Once upon a time .... (you're dreaming)

[Barack_America]

79. Um, I'm in a fully funded PhD program right now.

I get a very livable stipend, health insurance, etc.

So no, not once upon a time. Sorry, but your information is out of date.

[BlooInBloo]

82. It wasn't until well after I was out of grad school that I realized there were programs....

that DIDN'T pay for their students - lol!

Academic grad programs I mean, not the professions.

[bicentennial_baby]

95. Exactly...

That's why I'm going straight to PhD instead of Master's...Fully funded. :D

:)

[kristopher]

80. No, I'm wide awake and typing on a computer bought with my stipend.

Of course, there are a lot of people who don't qualify because of ability. Perhaps that's the basis of your opinion.

[endthewar]

40. There is some good interest to go into PhD programs

I'm living proof. :-)

[Barack_America]

67. So am I. But most of my undergraduate colleagues chose medical school instead.

I think that if our educational system encouraged more intellectual curiosity in students, we'd have more American students choosing academia (in all fields).

[endthewar]

68. Well, it does pay more money

Not really surprising.

[Barack_America]

70. And it's more glamorous.

And, I would argue, less rigorous intellectually.

But I'm allowed to bash MD's because I'm going to be one. ;)

[endthewar]

72. Not exactly more glamorous.

They have to work WAY too many hours in a row. It's surprising that there aren't more medical accidents because of doctors being tired.

[Barack_America]

77. You'd be amazed how quickly you adapt.

And it's rarely continuous working. You get to sleep (for short stretches anyway). When the pager goes off, the adrenaline takes over. For those MD's who are actually interested in their patients (and not enough are), those patients really keep you going. Fascinating people.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Not American ones there aren't....

EDIT: They're all communications majors and the like, talking about how smart they are.

[thunder rising]

5. It doesn't take a rocket scientist

to understand there is no future in a field that is being outsourced, onshored and H1-B'ed

[Barack_America]

8. Yeah okay. It seems that you don't understand how academic science is funded. nt

[LooseWilly]

65. Uhhmm... I think you're talking about two different things.

You're talking about, from the context of your responses, positions within academia... presumably positions in MS/PhD programs... whereas I think Thunder is speaking of the actual getting of a job AFTER getting said degree. As in- what's the point of going into program to achieve MS/PhD, when there won't be a job to get with said degree after it's earned?
You, meanwhile, seem to be talking about just getting the degree for the sake of getting the degree. Or perhaps some sort of assumption of a position teaching after getting said degree.

Ironic, kind of reminds me of technical documentation. All you (we) scientist types seem so terribly satisfied with your (our) technical/scientific degrees (and sure sound like you/we are looking down on those who get degrees in "easier" fields that aren't science)... and then you all can't seem to actually communicate/listen/read and catch connotations, let alone create documentation that's understandable to anyone who's not a science undergraduate/graduate degree holder.

Ok, I'm bitter too, like Thunder, sort of... and working on being drunk. But the point remains.

Ohh, and I have a BA in English and a minor in CS... because I dropped out of the program because it was hard... and I wasn't interested enough to want to tough my way through the hard... and now I'm ironically working doing software engineering on an internet start up. And I'm bitter also that I can't find distribution for the novels I've written.

How's that for knowing both sides? Well, both sides outside the institutions...

[Barack_America]

69. For the sciences...

There are also plenty of federal grants available for American scientists in the biological sciences once they graduate. The federal funding backing them makes them VERY attractive for academia positions.

I think the main distinction is that Thunder's talking about engineering and I'm talking about medical sciences.

[LooseWilly]

100. Hmm, so "grant writing" should be a part of the Sciences curriculums?

I can't help but notice that your entire thrust has been toward grants. Academic grants. Grants that make professors want to recruit grad students that can bring in grants....

I don't know why you keep on about intellectual curiosity. I think you should've been going on about the virtues of substituting grant writing classes for undergraduate classes in composition.
I mean, why should science students be bothered with any literature or such like crap?, when the only use they'll have for the English language... career wise... is writing grants proposals... which will apparently be the sole source of their income. Well, that and some science stuff to put on their resume.

[BlooInBloo]

11. There are oodles of jobs for American math/physics majors - especially grad....

I speak as someone involved in such hiring decisions. The large majority of hires go to people of foreign descent (sometimes American, sometimes not) simply because the white Americans we interview are just dim. We've seen it over and over and over.

[thunder rising]

24. When the US quit paying, the best of America went elsewhere. US is the best, pay them and find out

[BlooInBloo]

54. Spoken like someone who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

97. you would like to speak to my friend.

Except that he gave up on a decent job 15 years ago, and is now drawing Social Security.
He has a BS and MS in Physics, and wanted to go into nuclear. He went into oilfield engineering instead. He also has an AA in Music & Video Production. All that did was help him get a job with no payment for overtime, unbelievable stress, and a take home pay of about $15,000.

He got canned a couple of years ago by the people destroying his department.
So he retired.

[Johonny]

43. certainly not outsourcing rocket scientist

because it's really hard due to the law.

[thunder rising]

45. Great...so geniuses are starved to death

[Johonny]

102. huh?

[chiefofclarinet]

57. Think about why it is being outsourced

Many tech/medical/science jobs are being shipped overseas. There is one area that will not, though.

Academia. Science education, whether elementary, secondary, or university level, will never go overseas. We need to fund science education to get young Americans interested in science.

Many American students are uninspired by science. Why is it that? One is unqualified teachers. In my four years of high school, there wasn't a science teacher in my school that majored in chemistry. The honors chemistry was taught by an English major, a physics major, a microbiology major, and an animal biology major. We still had chemistry courses, but nobody learned much chemistry from them, because the teachers didn't want to teach it.

Another is lack of funding for real science. In my final two years in high school, the number of physics and chemistry labs together were in the single digits. There is NO way that anyone can learn this subjects without hands-on experience.

The only positive thing about the severe lack of young American scientists is that it helps the handful that qualify. It will be a lot easier for me enter graduate school with the shortage of American scientists. That's not enough of an upside for the country.

[LooseWilly]

73. To ask a question I think Thunder might, if he weren't so drunk...

Are you suggesting that everyone getting science degrees should forget about those lab-type jobs and aim for careers teaching in high school?

I mean really? Is that what you're suggesting?

I substituted/taught math for a little while in Oakland. And, by little while, I mean that after a 3 week long term job ended... I pretty much laughed in the face of the principal who wanted me to stay on... and I went back to driving a taxi in the 4th LEAST safe city in the US. Because it was more fun, more satisfying, and less stress.
I preferred the work of trying to guess which of my customers were liable to stab me, over the disciplinarian/babysitter work that was teaching.

What was that quote from "Notes of a Scandal"? "You'll find that teaching is mostly about crowd control."

I also doubt that there are enough positions in the Universities, or even Community Colleges, to accomodate all the science students that our Universities can crank out...


Of course... what I suggest to science students worried about the outsourcing of jobs is: Take the time to learn Chinese, Punjabi, Spanish... whatever language you will need in order to chase the jobs overseas.

I personally went with Spanish... y me encanta la idea de buscar un empleo en Mazatlan, o tal vez Vera Cruz, para un ingeniero de software...

[chiefofclarinet]

104. To answer your question, no.

I'm NOT saying that scientists need to abandon lab jobs. We need researchers to continue making new discoveries to continue the progress of science. Not only does this insure that we'll stay relevant as a nation scientifically, we could discover some breakthroughs that will help humankind.

I may not have made a good argument in my comment, but I hope you understand that I am advocating improving teachers to get better science students.

Let's just say that I'm also a bit frustrated with my situation. I'm currently an undergraduate at this great oxymoron that is a "research university." Professors have to walk that tenuous border between researcher and teacher, but (especially in the sciences) most profs get tenure based on research, not teaching. The primary job of the professor is their own research, and secondary is training of graduate students. That puts teaching undergraduates at tertiary at best. I am very fortunate that I can get that sole advantage of the research university as an undergraduate: doing research for a professor (aka grad school practice).

What I DID say is that we need to invigorate the youth into learning science. We don't just need more science teachers, we need BETTER ones. It only takes one good teacher to propel someone into a research career, but it still needs to have that one. I had that in my sophomore (high school) biology teacher.

But I plan on putting my words into action. After grad school, I plan being a professor. I think the best way to get American science in better shape is by teaching youth to love science. However, I know I cannot handle high school teaching, so I'll work at the collegiate level. I don't know if I want to concentrate on teaching (liberal arts college) or try to nasty balancing act of teaching and researching (research university), but again, I'm only an undergrad.

I know I should've been clearer. But, I hope you agree that we need get more youth interested in science, and good teaching is one of the best paths to that.

[thunder rising]

15. I apologize, but the posting infers US students are not motivated.

Americans are the MOST brilliant people. However we are adaptable to a chanting world and are accustomed to changing economic climate.

Hence when the nobody is hiring American Engineers and Scientists America's best and brightest find more financially secure careers.

This is a warning to the US and the world. We have force America's would be Engineers and Scientists into other fields. This would include management, legal and finance .... look out.

[thunder rising]

21. asdf

[Bill McBlueState]

3. can we get some context?

I assume this refers to something on TV that I'm not watching...

[thunder rising]

6. you can try www.cuntry.com for a full essay.

[noel711]

14. Listen to what passes as political discourse...

and how science is undervalued,
and understand why there is no value in science,
either teaching or research.

The government doesn't put its money where its
mouth is,
and our esteemed leadership sees the world
thru the lens of 'creationism.'

Of course education isn't valued,
being educated is elitest.

More value in being a beer-swilling redneck
driving a pickup truck, and toting a gun.

[thunder rising]

16. Thanks, I'm an educated (GI bill), beer drinking, gun owning vet

I just didn't forget where I came from and the people that didn't make it ... and why.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. Ah, beer drinking. Well, that explains this ridiculous post.

[blondeatlast]

27. Get back to us when you are sober. Might want to put the guns away for now, too... nt

[thunder rising]

32. asdf

[thunder rising]

33. Fuck you!!

[U4ikLefty]

49. Wonder if you would use the "sober" & "guns"attacks against a woman

on this board. Nah, you wouldn't admit it to yourself anyway.

[blondeatlast]

53. Might want to check my profile.

Whatever.

[thunder rising]

55. I'm a vet ... been drunk with locked/loaded M16, but then so was everybody else:-)

[Starry Messenger]

60. What?

That was out of left field.

MPK

[noel711]

42. Thunder... if you're still there...

I was refering to our beer-swilling,
redneck, gun toting, truck driving president...

and all of his voters who voted for him
because 'he's just like us.'

I meant no disparagement of anyone who
does like beer, drive a truck, etc.

If I missed my target,
please accept my apology.

I live in a small village in PA
where EVERYONE drives a pickup,
owns guns, drinks beer, etc etc.

And not every here votes republican..
but.. well... you know...

[thunder rising]

47. I'm having fun. You can bet there are some foreign interests here. But I understood your post

[Starry Messenger]

46. Nerd WAR!!!

Duck and cover.

MPK

[thunder rising]

50. I've carried an M-16 too. Sharpshooter

[WeDidIt]

56. Actually, no. There aren't

and that's a major problem.

We need more. About twice as many if we are to compete in the global economy. About three times as many if we are to lead the next generation of scientific innovation.

[thunder rising]

62. No ... you're wrong ... go back to your fucking corporation HR dept.

[BlooInBloo]

63. The world's smallest upside: my job security is at damn near astronomical levels.

:P

[Barack_America]

64. Oh, and thunder rising, just so you know. I'm going throught this brutal 14 year training program..

So that I can dedicate my career to the VA system. Caring for our nation's veterans is my passion.

Thought you might like to know that before you tell me to "fuck off" again.

[thunder rising]

74. That's a technical degree? 12 yrs + 2? TBP = top 10% of American engineers ..

[Barack_America]

76. Not exactly.

It's 4 years for bachelors.

(I did a Masters for an additional 2)

Then 8-9 years for MD/PhD

Then 3 years for residency

Then 3 years for fellowship

[JeffR]

81. K & R, thunder rising

Great post.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

98. I have a science degree.

B.A. in Biology from a very well respected liberal arts school.

Also have a Juris Doctor (law degree).

Neither of those degrees has ever helped me get a job. In fact they are a liability.

[LooseWilly]

101. Ahh, I feel your pain

I have a BA in English and a minor in Computer Science... speak fluent Spanish... and I drove a taxi in Oakland CA for 10 years. I washed dishes and walked dogs before that.

I'm now working what amounts to an 'internship" doing software engineering on an internet start up. No pay. Yet anyway. *Crosses fingers*

My biggest regret is that I didn't exert more effort to learn Punjabi over the last 10 years... the Punjabi drivers could've taught me... and then I could go to India and get a software engineering job... in a place where I might be able to afford to buy a home...