ABC News Fact Check: Palin Wrong on Former VP Credentials

[sabra]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/fact-check-pali.html

ABC News' Lisa Chinn reports: During her interview with ABC News' Charlie Gibson Thursday Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin attempted to deflect a question about the fact she has never met a foreign head of state by saying that "many" other vice presidential nominees in history hadn't met a head of state either.

However Palin was mistaken, at least where recent history is concerned.

Every vice president over the last 30 years had met a foreign head of state before being elected.

"Have you ever met a foreign head of state?" Gibson asked Palin Thursday.

"I have not," Palin said, "and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you."

However Palin, who obtained her first passport two years ago, would in fact be the first vice president in 32 years who hadn't met a foreign head of state, if she were elected.

[Hosnon]

1. So how does this refute what she said? nt.

[ErinBerin84]

4. I guess they're refuting the "many"

[Hosnon]

6. I guess. But do they even address that? All they say is she is wrong if you take

a small slice of our history, which isn't what she said at all.

[ErinBerin84]

8. small slice?

I don't know. I did not see the interview in full, so I really can't respond off of just those remarks.

[Hosnon]

11. Yes, small slice: 32 out of 219...roughly 15%

Just odd that this counts as a "refutation".

Edit: Rounded to 15%

[endthewar]

15. Leave the math to those who can do it well

Listen closely. The last time a V.P. hadn't met a foreign head of state was 32 years ago. That means out of 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, and 1976, only 1976 had the V.P. not met a foreign head of state. What YOU are assuming is that prior to 1976 most V.P.s had NOT met a foreign head of state. This isn't even addressed in the statistic, and I would bet that is not the case. So in recent history, only 12.5% of V.P.s have not met a foreign head of state. Nowhere in this math are years prior to 1976. Your math assumes that NONE of the V.P.s prior to 1976 had EVER met a head of state.

[Hosnon]

17. Nope, not assuming that at all.

She made an affirmative claim (i.e., many VPs have not met...yada yada). ABC attempted to negate that claim by pointing out that all the VPs in the past 30 years have done so.

I in no way make any claims about whether she is right or not. But I know that ABC's "refutation" woefully misses its intended mark.

And on the topic of that assumption regarding the other VPs, my assumption is that ABC would have said something more damning if it were there (which it may be but that is just my assumption).

[endthewar]

20. "32 out of 219". Oh please, I have to hear the explanation for that

I need a good laugh. :rofl:

[Hosnon]

23. Sure.

32 years (timeframe given by ABC)

219 years (age of United States)

...roughly 15%

But we could use number of VPs:

5 (Number in 32 years, if I recall correctly)

43 (total number)

...roughly 12%

[endthewar]

30. I thought that's what you would say, so let me set you straight

The correct math is 1 out of 8. The years is question are 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, and 1976. 8 different elections. Only 1 of them, 1976, had a V.P. that hadn't met a foreign head of state. The math is 1 out of 8. Notice that NOWHERE in the statement "within the last 32 years" does it include years before the last 32 years. YOU are assuming that EVERY V.P. before 1976 had NOT met a foreign head of state. Does that even sound feasible to you? Pardon me while I spend 30 seconds on wikipedia to find just one example of a V.P. before 1976 who had met a foreign head of state...

How about Gerald Ford, who was the V.P. in 1973-1974. House Minority Leader in the 1960s. Also met foreign heads of state before becoming V.P.

Your problem is that you don't understand that ABC News is saying "within the last 32 years" when they say "in 32 years". ABC News is NOT saying that only V.P.s in the last 32 years of our country's entire history have met foreign heads of state. If that HAD been what they said, then your 32 out of 219 would be fine.

[Hosnon]

37. Why do you keep saying I am assuming that? Crazy talk...

Palin didn't limit her category of VPs to the last 32 years (or, as you put it, 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1976) so any refutation about only the last 32 years does not refute her statement.

I don't know anything about the VPs prior to 1976 in this regard.

To adequately refute her statement, ABC would have to refute "many" over the entirety of the United States, as the other poster noted.

[endthewar]

40. "Every vice president over the last 30 years had met a foreign head of state before being elected."

In other words, in Palin's adult lifetime EVERY V.P. had met at least one head of state. Now perhaps you want to include the years 1800-1850. Before airplanes and before cars. Sounds like an even-handed comparison to me. :crazy:

[Hosnon]

41. Hey, I noted below that the more recent VPs are more relevant. But you're

bobbing and weaving.

Palin included those years so any honest refutation would also include those years.

[endthewar]

43. I must commend your stalwart defense of Palin

You probably think that it's great that she doesn't know what the Bush Doctrine is either.

[Hosnon]

44. Oy...is this your last stand?

Failing to properly refute accomplishes nothing and it may feed into the "liberal media" crap.

[endthewar]

45. See post #35. Educating you is a tag team event.

I don't get paid enough to bring you up to speed. Post #35 picks up where I left off about international travel methods.

[Hosnon]

46. Keep your eye on the ball...

Because now you're doing what I wish ABC did...referencing VPs prior to 1976, and explaining why the most recent VPs' meetings are more relevant.

As a side note, doesn't that chart imply that "many VPs had not met a head of state"? (Edit: Actually, no, it doesn't.)

[endthewar]

47. You are the only one that thinks its equivalent to compare

a V.P. from 1800 to a V.P. in 2000 in terms of world travel and meeting world leaders. :crazy:

If you want to argue a fair comparison, the bare minimum needs to include an analysis of travel methods available to world leaders at different times.

I thought I said that post #35 was picking up where I left off. It picks up on this concept of world travel methods. Tag team education.

[Hosnon]

48. I can't do this if you won't be honest. Read my other posts. I freely admit

that the comparison with more recent VPs is more relevant.

But I've let you take me too far on a tangent. Palin said that out of every VP in the history of the U.S., many have not met foreign heads of state. ABC attempted to refute that by noting that every VP in the past 32 years has met a foreign head of state. In what world does that statement refute hers?

[endthewar]

50. Post #35

My last post on this. I've tag-teamed already. Beforehand, educate yourself and modes of travel during different parts of U.S. history.

[Hosnon]

54. Sure thing, bud. For the sake of reality, I'll call it "even". nt.

[endthewar]

56. Great talking with you.

A spirited debate that makes us both smarter. :patriot:

[riverdeep]

31. America was a more isolated country at some points and travel harder also.

But in the time of common jet travel and global ties, she hasn't. But you're right that the article's headline doesn't exactly match the qualification of 'recent'. Welcome to 80% of journalism.

[Hosnon]

39. Well I certainly agree that what the recent VPs have done is more relevant

than what John Adams did.

But when I say that many Presidents have been Democrats and someone responds: "Wrong, in the past 8 years there have been no Democratic Presidents"...that's just insane if it's intended to be some type of refutation of my statement.

[yardwork]

51. You seem to be saying that only 15% of VPs had met a head of state.

Got a link for that rather astounding claim? I'd be interested to see the facts.

Also, what difference does it make if some VP years ago hadn't met a foreign head of state? How does that make it ok for a VP now - when we're in two foreign wars and contemplating a third (and apparently a fourth, according to Palin herself) not to have met a head of state?

[Hosnon]

55. Nope, not saying that at all.

I'm saying that the period that ABC used to "refute" Palin's claim represents only 15% of U.S. history. Palin's claim referenced the entirety of U.S. history.

ABC's refutation is anything but.

And I'll add that I am not making any affirmative statements about the "head of state contact" of the VPs in the other 85%.

[yardwork]

57. The parallel you drew was misleading, then.

[Hosnon]

58. I don't see how (but then again I made it so go figure).

I've been very clear that it doesn't make sense to say, in effect: Many people have done X over the last 200 years --> Nobody has done X over the last 30 years --> therefore, the claim that may people have done X over the last 200 years is obviously wrong.

Call me crazy...

[SpiralHawk]

2. Do republicons ever tell the truth?

eom

[HughMoran]

3. Didn't have a passport 'till she was 42??

Huh?

:rofl:

What kind of loser did McPOW pick?

[rebel with a cause]

13. I've never had a passport, and I am 62.

Some of us poor folk don't have the money to go traveling overseas. I have been out of the country, but a VISA was good enough for where I went. Of course I am not running for VP either. :shrug:

[Alameda]

25. True, but Sara is not poor. Another thing to consider is that

for a very long time traveling abroad required going by ship. Air travel has been in extensive use for less than 100 years.

[knixphan]

28. Exactly - and Sarah is the one running for the 'heartbeat-away' position.

[rebel with a cause]

42. And she has held political office.

Something that would allow her to travel more than a person such as myself. If I had been a governor and privy to a private plane, the one she did not sell on ebay, I would have gone somewhere and done something, you can bet your bottom dollar. Because I was born to be a wanderer, just wasn't born with the money to be one in style. ;)

[seemunkee]

66. But Russia is right across the street for her

She would need a passport to go borrow a cup of sugar. And traveling by land to the lower 48 would require a passport too.

[rebel with a cause]

67. I know it is a different situation.

It was just that the first post merely stated surprise that a person 42 years old had never had a passport. I know that is not what was meant, but what came across was that and it would come across that way to people who would be more upset than I was by it.

That sarah palin is so unschooled on the world around her is unthinkable. This is how poor people are portrayed, those doing the portrayals always state it is because they just don't care about education and because they can't afford to travel the way the more affluent can. Well, she is more affluent than most of us are here where I live, and many of us cannot afford to travel the way she could but it seems we know more about the world than she does. The generalization of groups of people and the drumming down of America is frustrating to me.

When did it become the standard to pick a president by who people would like to have a drink with? Since when did we become such a one issue population, that people will pick a president simply based on abortion rights (the one that seems to be the most deciding factor) rather than on those issues that affect all of our lives? When did it become a liability when the candidate explains the issues and where he stands on them instead of giving out some glib sound bites? Whenever these things happened is when it became possible for us to get candidates like bush, mccain and palin. God helps us all if the RW prevails again this time, but I have to hold on to the hope that they will not. O8)

[rurallib]

5. Even Quayle?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

9. Sure, Danny boy was Governor

longer than her of a bigger state

[Fla Dem]

12. Quaye was both a US Rep and Senator. I would assume during the 12 years he served in

those positions he met heads of states.

[democrat2thecore]

34. Quayle should be offended being compared to her. He had MUCH more experience than Palin -nt

[Liberalboy]

7. Passport at 42?!?!

OMG!

[progressoid]

36. Yeah, you'd think she would need one to deal with those RUSSIANS!

They are Alaska's neighbor ya know. :crazy:

[book_worm]

10. 32 years? That would be Mondale! and I don't believe that, he was in the Senate for 12 years

and close friend of Hubert Humphrey who was VP of the USA, and I seriously doubt that Mondale never met a foreign head of state prior to being VP.

[Redbear]

16. No. None in the last 32 years means Mondale and Dole had met

foreign heads.

[Roland99]

14. She never wandered across that border where you can see Russia from Alaska?

:rofl:

[Cha]

18. Anyway who cares what was done in the past?

We've had some baaad VP's and this is the 21 Century where the liar from Alaska is bush league.

[Redbear]

19. Possibly Agnew had not.

He was a Congressional aide, but other than that all his offices were local or state.

Other than that you might have to go back to the 1930s or earlier.

[yardwork]

53. And we see where that got us.

[zulchzulu]

21. Facts are sexist things

:rofl:

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

22. Ouch, she needs needs to book a flight Tout de suite...

[wisteria]

24. Matters of foreign relations have changed a lot in 32 years. With the world the way it is today

and the attack on our soil-9/11, it is extremely important to know how to navigate and deal with foreign powers.
If the times now were peaceful and most of the world was on our side she would be a good photo-op VP. However, our national security is up most and another ignorant leader anywhere near the White House would be dangerous at this point in our history. The RW is promoting Palin like she were running for president rather than VP. The RW radio programs talk of her like she were the presidential candidate and with McCain being 72 years old I don't think this is a time in our history to take a chance on this woman. Frankly, if you review her resume and opinions she is an awful lot like George Bush- except he got through school sooner than she did.

[PA Democrat]

26. What a shock. Yet another LIE out of Palin's mouth.

:puke:

[jillan]

27. Oopsie! Those pesky little facts are so inconvenient.

[codjh9]

29. Good! The media has got to do this!

[quiet.american]

32. I guess her trash-talking comedy act will only get her so far.

Giving flip answers that sound like they should be right, but aren't, has run its course.

[1corona4u]

33. BUSTED.

Douchebag.

[Fla Dem]

35. As intercontinental travel was done by ship before the 1940's

probably few VP candidates met with foreign heads of state before becoming VP. Look at this list and see if there is a VP since 1950 who would not have met a foreign head of state at one time or another before being nominated.

R...William Howard Taft (1909-1913)......James S. Sherman(1909-1912)
D...Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921)...........Thomas R. Marshall (1913-1921)
R...Warren G. Harding (1921-1923)........Calvin Coolidge (1921-1923)
R...Calvin Coolidge (1923-1929)..........none (1923-1925)....Charles Dawes (1925-1929)
R...Herbert Hoover (1929-1933)...........Charles Curtis (1929-1933)
D...Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933-1945)....John Nance Garner (1933-1941)....Henry A. Wallace (1941-1945)....Harry S Truman (1945)
Intercontinental Air Travel Begins
D...Harry S Truman (1945-1953)...........Alben Barkley (1949-1953)
R...Dwight D. Eisenhower (1953-1961).....Richard Nixon (1953-1961)
D...John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)..........Lyndon B. Johnson (1961-1963)
D...Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1969)........none (1963-1965)....Hubert Humphrey (1965-1969)
R...Richard Nixon (1969-1974)............Spiro Agnew (1969-1973)...Gerald Ford (1973-1974)
R...Gerald Ford (1974-1977)..............Nelson Rockefeller (1974-1977)
D...Jimmy Carter (1977-1981).............Walter Mondale (1977-1981)
R...Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)............George Bush (1981-1989)
R...George Bush (1989-1993)..............Dan Quayle (1989-1993)
D...Bill Clinton (1993-2001).............Al Gore (1993-2001)
R...George W. Bush (2001- 2009)..........Dick Cheney (2001-2009 )

[starroute]

59. Many had been Senate Majority Leader or House Speaker

Which suggests a high likelihood of their having met visiting world leaders -- though less certainty of their having traveled abroad themselves. Henry A. Wallace, who had been an author and editor before becoming Roosevelt's first vice president, is the only one I spot post-1920 who might not have met any world leaders.

It's only back around 1920 that things get dicier -- largely because there were more governors being chosen for the VP slot. Calvin Coolidge's highest position had been two years as governor of Massachusetts. Thomas R. Marshall had been a one-term governor of Indiana.

So it seems fair to say that since the US became a world power at the end of World War I there have been no more than 3 vice-president candidates -- if that many - without experience in world affairs.


On edit: Wallace can probably be moved out of the questionable list. His role as Secretary of Agriculture from 1933-41 was an extremely high-profile one, concerned with the establishment of price supports and promotion of exports. And an online biography says of him:

http://www.winrock.org/wallace/wallacecenter/Wallace/bio.asp

As the 1940 election approached, Roosevelt was searching for a new Vice President. John Garner, Vice President during Roosevelt's first two terms, was a strong opponent of the New Deal, and Roosevelt was searching for someone who would be an aid, rather than a hinderance. But there were other things on the president's mind as well. War was breaking out in Europe and Asia, and Roosevelt needed someone not only with administrative ability to handle the pressures that a new world war would bring, but, perhaps most of all, he wanted a Vice President who could ably guide the country through the tumultuous times ahead, should something happen to himself. Despite the fact that there were a host of capable candidates for the Vice Presidency, each with significant support, Roosevelt was adament about his choice of Henry A. Wallace as his running mate. Wallace's loyalty to Roosevelt during his eight years as Secretary of Agriculture, his exceptional administrative ability, and his political philosophy all made him Roosevelt's first and only choice. But most of all, Roosevelt felt that Wallace, if called upon, would be an excellent president. So strongly did Roosevelt want Wallace for Vice President, that he drafted a letter refusing the nomination, should the party reject Wallace.

[Fla Dem]

60. Great additional research. n/t

[starroute]

61. I should note that I screwed up on Wallace before editing

Wallace was not Roosevelt's first VP but his second, chosen in 1940 after eight years as Secretary of Agriculture. My addition probably made that clear -- but since I didn't explicitly correct the initial misstatement, I wanted to spell it out now.

And thanks -- but all it took was a little work with Wikipedia, plus some additional googling on Wallace.

I might also say that I was surprised to find how prominent most of these people had been before their vice-presidential nominations. Just because we've forgotten them now doesn't mean they weren't big names at the time.

Coolidge was probably the least experienced -- and we all know how that turned out -- but even he'd been governor of a major state and faced some serious challenges.

[trudyco]

38. Will this be covered on the TV?

[jeanmarc]

49. Gibson probably thinks he did his job...but

I'm not seeing the story of the librarian and the book banning. I'm not seeing the story of why she opened up for an Alaskan separatist party. I'm not seeing the explanation for why she has been so shielded. I'm not seeing a hard confrontation on earmarks and that bridge. I'm not seeing a dialogue about how it is fair to pay each citizen of Alaska bucks from the oil industry while we fund them as a welfare state with that fed money. Reformer my fucking ass.

I'm not seeing alot of things. I could keep going.

[endthewar]

52. The interview is over many days

He said that he was going to focus on foreign policy today since it was the anniversary of 9/11.

[Usrename]

62. Has she ever read a book?

Does she know what war crimes are?

[philosophie_en_rose]

63. She's never been to Russia? It's just right there, next to Alaska.

:rofl:

[WinkyDink]

65. Nah; she just looks at it over her breakfast table.

[JustAnotherGen]

64. She's bonkers

Even John Adams had met with foreign heads of state prior to being Washington's VP.