Bill Clinton's advice to Barack Obama ~ Politico

[mzmolly]

Some of this is speculative but it's great advice...

“He’s got to learn how to completely eviscerate the guy with a smile,” he said.

4. Make the election about something big.

It’s a mistake, Clinton believes, for a presidential nominee of one party to be arguing about the vice presidential nominee of the other party, as Obama has been over Sarah Palin in recent days. The best way for Obama to convince people he’s ready to be president is by talking about ideas that sound presidential.

During both his presidential runs, Clinton gave major speeches at Georgetown University that were not partisan or even in the strict sense political—they were wide-ranging discourses about where the United States stood at that moment in history.

Clinton believes Obama is on losing terrain if he allows the election to be about pigs and lipstick. Obama needs to soar above that by talking about large themes like energy and global warming, and how to harness the opportunities of a global economy.

POLITICO

I suggested recently that Obama use his greatest asset (public speaking) to take back the MO. Again, I feel that a major speech on the economy given in Ohio or ??? would be effective.

[mzmolly]

1. .

One last futile attempt.

[frazzled]

2. A bit disingenuous

Obama has been talking about "big issues" as Clinton himself did. It's why he won the nomination. The Republicans are making this about pigs and lipstick in the same way that they made it about womanizing and other issues in 92. Clinton ended up having to talk about Gennifer Flowers during his campaign, and not the big issues, at many junctures.

Back in 1992, as I recall it, one of the big themes of the day was law and order (being "soft on crime"). And I recall how Clinton ordered the execution of a mentally retarded fellow back in Arkansas to prove he was not soft on crime. I hope to God Obama doesn't have to resort to a similar tactic to win this one.

Let's stop everyone giving this campaign advice.

[Vattel]

69. The primary is over

No need to smear Clinton with right-wing bullshit from years past. Did Clinton order "the execution of a mentally retarded fellow to prove he was not soft on crime"? Rightwingers claimed without proof that he did. Now you ape their claims like a perfect little monkey. Are you aware that this individual was not mentally retarded when he murdered someone because of a minor dispute, or when he shot a police officer in the back after promising to turn himself in to that officer because he had known him since he was a youth? Did it occur to you that maybe Clinton thought that this piece of shit deserved to die even though he lobotomized himself in a suicide attempt after the murder of the officer?

[frazzled]

79. Wow, what a whack response

I can see that neither historical perspective nor democratic ideals are part of the agenda here. Sorry, but the Clinton administration is over. You need to worry about how this country is going to be saved.

[Vattel]

82. you don't get it

smearing a public figure is not something to take lightly

[DemocracyInaction]

3. He needs to get back in front of big crowds

It's all perception now and the public sees this image of McCain/Palin as the rock stars. Oh, and someone should remind Bubba that he didn't get in for those lofty rhetoric reasons. He got in because of Ross Perot!

[mzmolly]

6. I agree!

:hi:

[paulk]

96. that's not true

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh062905.shtml

stop repeating right wing memes on liberal websites

[madfloridian]

4. The Clintons are determined to make this election about him and her.

I am sick of it. I am going to start posting stuff about them again if this crap continues.

[mzmolly]

5. I didn't take it that way MF.

I see them as important allies? :shrug:

[madfloridian]

7. Obama is doing a great job against impossible odds....and his own party

And yes, I do see it that way. I have held off writing about them for a while hoping for peace.

[mzmolly]

8. Clinton and Obama had a nice meeting yesterday.

I don't see how this post is anti-peace? Obama needs help right now, "pride cometh before a fall" as they say.

[madfloridian]

15. Obama is fighting half the party. AND he is being eviscerated at DU

Sound familiar?

I hate posts like this. I see no reason to be cautious what I post anymore.

Bill Clinton hurt our party so bad that he is still a joke in areas like mine.

[mzmolly]

17. You hate my post because I mentioned the former President meeting

with our current nominee?

I don't think it's bad to accept advice from someone who has won an election MF. I didn't mean to be divisive. If Bill and Barack met and are mending wounds, can't we?

[madfloridian]

23. No. If he is going to be giving advice...he needs to apologize

for saying the chairman cheated during the primary.

[wyldwolf]

10. MF, do you think "writing about them" somehow helps your cause?

[madfloridian]

13. They have not yet apologized for using my state as a tool.

The agenda is gone, we don't work with the party here locally anymore. Since we defended Dean against Dem party attacks here we are not welcome.

They lied. They need to apologize and quit giving Penn like advice to Obama.

[mzmolly]

20. Clinton is going to campaign for Obama in Florida.

:shrug:

I'm sorry you're upset MF. I may be too if I lived in Florida?

Peace

[wyldwolf]

22. ok. ok. Go ahead and "write about them." LOL!

[Clintonista2]

98. Well, at least she won't be writing about Dean

She seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Howard Dean. It will be nice to see her write something that doesn't give one the impression that her life's goal is to elope with him to a tropical island somewhere.

[goldcanyonaz]

66. impossible odds? What exactly does that mean?

[polmaven]

14. some posters want to see anything

and everything about the Clintons in a negative light, mz. There are those who simply refuse to accept the fact of the Clintons as allies and drop the primary battles.

[madfloridian]

18. I am not "some poster". I am me. I am an individual.

The Clintons lied about my state and about how a nominee is chosen. They have made Dean's name here one that is shamed instead of honored.

They need to apologize if they are coming here anymore to campaign.

Don't lump me as "some poster". I am an individual. The former president accused the chairman of cheating.

WHY doesn't that bother you?????

[polmaven]

31. First, it is not just you

who is not yet able to move past the primaries. Second, what you are now "ranting" about has absolutely NOTHING to do with what the OP is discussing...or trying to discuss. Third, I'm quite sure you would be very happy for me to have mentioned you specifically, so you could alert that I was "calling you out"! I don't fall for that kind of thing.

The Clintons have NOTHING about which they need to apologize to the state of Florida. They did not muddy Chairman Dean's name. He did that all by himself. Because YOU cannot get over your hate does not mean the rest of your state can't. Senator Clinton did pretty well IN FLORIDA the other day!

President Clinton won two presidential elections. He knows how to do it, and any presidential candidate should be willing to listen to any and all advice from someone in that position.

Grow up and get over yourself.

[madfloridian]

33. So you think the DNC cheated during the primaries. AH, now I get it.

You think Dean caused the FL situation. Thank you for posting that. Now I see how this forum is still wired.

[madfloridian]

34. Your words clarify what is happening at DU. You think the primary was unfair.

Your words:

"The Clintons have NOTHING about which they need to apologize to the state of Florida. They did not muddy Chairman Dean's name. He did that all by himself. Because YOU cannot get over your hate does not mean the rest of your state can't. Senator Clinton did pretty well IN FLORIDA the other day!

President Clinton won two presidential elections. He knows how to do it, and any presidential candidate should be willing to listen to any and all advice from someone in that position.

Grow up and get over yourself."

See, that is what I mean. As long as people here think because Dean followed the rules that he "muddied" his name....our party will not heal.

Your words are very clear.

[polmaven]

52. Wow! Two replies!

I think that, since the FL Democrats in the legislature attempted to change the date, but were unsuccessful, the "penalty" of disenfranchisement of all Democrats was WAY too harsh. I also think that, If Chairman Dean had followed through with his original declaration of FEWER delegates, rather that NO delegates, all would have been OK.

As much as you may like to think it, DU is not exactly the Democratic Party. DU, though, has mostly healed, and the vast majority of us are doing really well together. The fracture, however, will not completely heal until "people here" stop fighting the primary wars. Hate is not a Democratic value.

I will repeat.....Grow up and get over yourself.

[madfloridian]

58. What?? Where did you get your info?

Your words:

"I think that, since the FL Democrats in the legislature attempted to change the date, but were unsuccessful, the "penalty" of disenfranchisement of all Democrats was WAY too harsh. I also think that, If Chairman Dean had followed through with his original declaration of FEWER delegates, rather that NO delegates, all would have been OK."

Where are you getting all that stuff? Are you not aware there is a rules committee? Do you not know that they DID succeed in changing the date to Jan. 29?

At least get your facts straight before continuing attacks and taking FL's side.

The Clintons did a good job, didn't they? The propaganda worked.

[polmaven]

63. Of course I am aware

that there is a rules committee. And Governor Dean has a lot of sway over the decisions they make.

I am also well aware that the FL LEGISLATURE was successful in changing the date to January 29, and also that the Democrats filed an amendment to change it to a date in February, and were UNSUCCESSFUL. I know, I know...you are going to again rail about how they didn't try hard enough. Tell me just how the greatly outnumbered Democrats were going to have ANY chance to stop it.

There was no "propaganda" here. If there had been, and it had worked, then how did Senator Obama become our candidate? That makes absolutely no sense at all! .....You have let your hate overwhelm any sense of reason.

[madfloridian]

65. Oh, that amendment. Here you go....

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2129

Video and all.

I am sorry, but I have posted so much about this. The Clintons and the FL Dem leaders have fixed it so Dean will never be welcomed here.

That is a problem for Democrats in general here in FL, who care about truth and honesty.

Watch the video....he is laughing his head off at his own amendment.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining.

[polmaven]

68. Well, as I have said

I think your hate has overwhelmed you, and you will not ever be convinced that the Clintons have any value to Senator Obama, or even that they are not responsible for Adam eating the apple in the Garden of Eden. I will not respond to any more of your unreasonable rants, so there is absolutely no sense in posting more about it.

I realize you have "posted so much about this", and it has all been slanted with your hatred. I watched the video, and saw a legislator laughing at the thought that, by the amount they are outnumbered, it was rather useless to be talking about the amendment, but he was going to do it anyway. You saw it one way, and I see it another.

Please don't let your vitriol stop you from doing WHATEVER is necessary to get Senator Obama elected on November 4th.

[madfloridian]

70. You just made a personal attack on me and what I wrote during the primaries.

That is to your shame. I contacted someone about it, because I resent it so very much. Here is a long list....please tell me where I did not tell the truth.

I will await your answer.

Updated list of my journal postings about the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

Florida Democrats invade Georgia
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1905

Dean told not to plan a vacation in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1902

Court decision on March 17 could determine who Democratic nominee is.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1897

Florida Democrats thought they would only lose "half" the delegates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903

Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public
instead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Over-reached
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1890

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1875

Terry McAuliffe wants to change horses in the middle of the stream.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1882

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary
bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

The worst part is that this very day FL Dems still shift blame....
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1870

Is Hillary's campaign being run as a "shadow DNC" for her benefit?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1883

More Florida shenanigans and more insults to Dean from that state.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1858

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's
rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a
"voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the
DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to
let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local
email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in
chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument
here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone
call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to
Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had
to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I
must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary
that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get
near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[madfloridian]

74. Here are two of my "slanted posts" I forgot. More recent ones

The ones you claim are not true, and are filled with hate. Actually hubby and I are the ones viewed with scorn here because we said the DNC was right to follow the rules everyone voted on.

They are letting Dean be the scapegoat for actions of others in the primary.

All are the words they spoke, not mine.

1. He accused the party of forcing delegates to get in line behind Obama.

2. He said that if the votes had been in favor of Obama there would not have been these problems with the DNC.

Terrible, sad statements.

The dangerous thing I have tried to point out is that it is not only the Clinton supporters, it is the Clintons themselves who have as much as said the primaries were not done fairly.

And this one:

The FL and MI primaries are still playing out. Accusation of unfair primary continues.

Today, at the first of five campaign events in Kentucky, just days ahead of the May 20 primary here, the former president said the lack of attention to the unseated Michigan and Florida delegates was proof that the party and the political pundits are trying to force Democrats to get in line behind Obama.

....."What did the Democratic National Committee do? They obliterated them. Who cares if you wanted to get up there with these other states because you've been broken by this economic policy of the current administration. We're gonna show you who's boss. We are obliterating you from the face of the earth and pretending that your voters did not vote. You just have to know, that is the position of your national party. Nobody quarrels with their right to discipline them. They made a decision they did not have to make. And do you seriously believe, if the votes had been the other way, that they would have made the same decision?" Clinton asked a crowd in

Dean on NPR said that the two states did not contact the DNC before they went public with their accusations.

They did not try to settle things with the party, they took it to the media. No one stood up for what was right.

You may call it what you like, but do not ever insinuate what I write is not fair.

[wildeyed]

71. Me either.

It's just politics. You get mad at each other and fight, but when you need the other to win, you suck up. :shrug: We need to get our mo back, and Clinton could help with that.

[wyldwolf]

9. very reactionary reply. There is NOTHING in the original source that should lead you to that...

[madfloridian]

12. It's the Penn/Wolfson school of attack speaking out there.

And yes I do find it a little much right now.

I find what they did during the primaries to be outrageous. They lied about the party chairman, they lied about how a nominee is chosen.

Yes, I will be reactionary, while I had been trying to shut up about it.

Obama is doing a good and classy job, and he has half his own party against him as well as the media.

I hope he continues how he is going.

Oh, and yes, I have stuff to back up my assertions....their very own effing words.

[wyldwolf]

19. it was the author's personal theory of what the conversation MAY have been like. Sheesh!

[amborin]

26. don't let your hatred

prevent O's victory

if those were the tips Clinton gave, they were great


giving tips is not stealing the limelight

[madfloridian]

32. Obama is doing those things.

[ShortnFiery]

78. Bingo.

I'm saddened that I've had to revise my past impressions of both Bill and Hillary Clinton. They are still highly intelligent but, I fear, their priorities are not in line with Working Americans' best interests before their own personal ambitions. :shrug:

[crazy_vanilla]

85. I disagree

They are just trying to help him, 'cause they too are sick of what's been going on during the past 8 years with president happybrain and his party of darkness

[Jersey Devil]

11. What about his advice to Hillary in the primaries?

That worked well, didn't it?

[mzmolly]

16. So you don't think the advice is sound? Or you're just hatin' on Mr. Clinton?

What about the way he won two Presidential elections?

[madfloridian]

21. Bill Clinton lied and said Dean cheated and threw the primary.

Why does that not bother you?? I can post the words of his if you wish.

[wyldwolf]

24. sure, post the words...

[mzmolly]

36. You go ahead and post his words.

And I'll post the words of Barack Obama in recent days. As well as the words of Dean in 04, deal?

Here are some words for you to ponder before chastening me again -

“The only thing that is going to make John McCain president is disunity among Democrats,” he said “And we cannot afford four more years, essentially, of George W. Bush.” ~ HOWARD DEAN

[madfloridian]

42. I have already posted them recently. No one gave a damn.

FL got away with it. They got their full votes, and there was no penalty at all.

They lied they cheated and no one cared.

If you really care, it just a short way back in my journal.

[Jersey Devil]

48. No hate, just fact

Hillary's primary campaign was based on her "experience", a total flop. McCain tried the same thing and now has change instead of experience after discovering the same thing.

In 1992 Bill Clinton had three things working for him - a horrible econ, clueless Bush39 and Ross Perot(for 92 & 96). True Obama has a terrible econ, but despite attempts to tie McCain to Bush so far it hasn't worked and there is no Ross Perot. In fact, to the contrary, there is Nader. Also, don't forget that Clinton didn't have a majority of the popular vote in either 92 or 96.

As for 96, can you think of a worse candidate than Bob Dole?

Look, I think Clinton is a good pol and was a good president, but let's not pretend he is a political genius.

[madfloridian]

50. He is still close with Mark Penn. Don't let anything connected to Penn...

near Obama's campaign.

[madfloridian]

25. Bill Clinton said the primary was not fair. Why is that ok?

Why is it okay that he and his wife are able to make a state believe that the chairman cheated during the primary?????

Peace? really?

[mzmolly]

27. I think it's normal

to have some tit for tat in a campaign. How long do we hold a grudge? Remember when Kerry supporters were angry that Dean equated him to Bush?

I think at some point we have to move on from the primary. Hillary and Bill did a great job at the Convention and they'll be huge assets going forward. We DO need them even if we don't like that fact.

[madfloridian]

28. Well, let's see here.

A former president accuses a party chairman of not being fair in the primaries..now that is pretty doggoned bad.

FL Dem leaders follow suit and convince their fellow Dems that the primary was not fair.

People like me who defend the party process are shunned.

Oh, yeah, just get over it. Right.

[mzmolly]

29. And Dean accused Kerry of being "Bush light."

Dean suggested that the Democratic Party took him down too, remember? He said McAuliffe was unfair.

It's pretty normal when a candidate is losing an election for the bitter grapes to be tossed about.

[madfloridian]

30. He did not accuse him of throwing the primary...

He openly said he asked the DNC to stop the ganging up....there was no accusation of McAuliffe cheating.

That was after the ad with Osama...that his fellow Democrats did against him. Remember "we live in a dangerous world"

I've had it with the Clinton folks keeping on putting down Obama's campaign now. Using this forum to express faux concern.

So you are okay with the state of Florida Democrats and the Clintons accusing Dean?

I guess I should not be surprised.

[mzmolly]

35. You're

being over the top in your tone towards me MF and I resent it. I got crap in 04 because I openly supported Kerry after the primaries were over. Was I wrong then too? Why is it that some former fellow Dean supporters feel it's ok to continue to insult me for supporting our nominee? I'M A DEMOCRAT, it's what I do.

I did not get involved in the Florida battles. I'm not ok with much of what happens in politics. But I'm far LESS OK with losing an election than I am in holding a grudge.

If you want to take out your personal frustrations with the Clinton's on me feel free but I wont respond to it again.

[wyldwolf]

37. some here are still replaying the 2008 primaries. MF is still stuck in the 2004 primaries

MF never got over Howard Dean. And she forgets that many Dean supporters were openly stating the Iowa caucus was rigged.

[mzmolly]

38. I was vilified for supporting Kerry after Dean lost the primary race as well.

Apparently I'm supposed to feel some sort of "guilt" over that? :eyes:

I am still a Dean supporter, and I imagine he's glad we are unified given he's suggested it was important?

[wyldwolf]

41. I agree.

[madfloridian]

45. We all supported Kerry. You are twisting this and spinning.

And wyldwolf is helping you.

Go for it.

[mzmolly]

49. No "we all" didn't - initially.

I was kicked out of a Dean discussion group (that I helped start) for being one of the first to support Kerry, openly. In fact there are a couple former members of that group who NEVER supported Kerry. But, that's water under the bridge for ME. What is insulting is when you said you were 'not surprised' that I was posting this thread, I assume you had a reason for that assertion?

[madfloridian]

43. No, I am stuck on the fact that Bill Clinton said the primary was not fair.

A former president accusing a chairman of cheating.

But then here at DU that is okay.

[wyldwolf]

46. Did he say it wasn't "fair" or did he say Dean "cheated" and "threw the election?"

You've been asked twice by two posters in this thread to give us the quotes.

[madfloridian]

47. Ooops I thought you read my journal. I will find it later.

Couldn't be past 2nd page. I used the exact words not long ago.

But see....being a Clinton means you never have to apologize.

[wyldwolf]

53. I know you think your journal is the end all of political discussions... but no...

[madfloridian]

55. Well, that is where the discussion is found. So I guess I can't share it.

.

[wyldwolf]

56. obviously, you CAN'T share it. You're the one who asked if you should post the words. So do it

[madfloridian]

59. When you diss my journal, why should I look it up? Others can find it.

It is about FL and MI still going on...or something like that. Still "playing out" I think were the words.

[wyldwolf]

60. So accurately stating your journal isn't the end all of political discussion is "dissing?" LOL!

Oh, and you're sooo hip for using the word 'dis.'

No, the fact is you can't produce the quotes because they don't exist.

[madfloridian]

61. Yes, I just made it up...

except the words are there.

Now I remember why I had my list. updating...

[wyldwolf]

62. yeah, you did.

[polmaven]

73. LOL...

Check out post #70...I'm sure every journal with anything at all about the subject is listed there.

[madfloridian]

75. You are again making fun of truth. You are trying to make me look bad.

You are laughing and trying to discredit my posts.

It is not funny to me at all the former president accused the party of not playing fair in the primary. He did it as late as May, and she did it later than that. The former president lied about the chairman with impunity.

It is shameful. I have been made fun of here so much by Hillary's supporters and the DLC folks. It does not even bother me now.

It shows people up for what they really are when they try to squelch the truth.

Here is more that I just posted to respond to you. There is no winning in a party in which lies are told about a good and decent man who is at this time unable to defend himself. There is no healing in that kind of party either.

More.

Actually hubby and I are the ones viewed with scorn here because we said the DNC was right to follow the rules everyone voted on.

They are letting Dean be the scapegoat for actions of others in the primary.

All are the words they spoke, not mine.

1. He accused the party of forcing delegates to get in line behind Obama.

2. He said that if the votes had been in favor of Obama there would not have been these problems with the DNC.

Terrible, sad statements.

The dangerous thing I have tried to point out is that it is not only the Clinton supporters, it is the Clintons themselves who have as much as said the primaries were not done fairly.

And this one:

The FL and MI primaries are still playing out. Accusation of unfair primary continues.

Today, at the first of five campaign events in Kentucky, just days ahead of the May 20 primary here, the former president said the lack of attention to the unseated Michigan and Florida delegates was proof that the party and the political pundits are trying to force Democrats to get in line behind Obama.

....."What did the Democratic National Committee do? They obliterated them. Who cares if you wanted to get up there with these other states because you've been broken by this economic policy of the current administration. We're gonna show you who's boss. We are obliterating you from the face of the earth and pretending that your voters did not vote. You just have to know, that is the position of your national party. Nobody quarrels with their right to discipline them. They made a decision they did not have to make. And do you seriously believe, if the votes had been the other way, that they would have made the same decision?" Clinton asked a crowd in

Dean on NPR said that the two states did not contact the DNC before they went public with their accusations.

They did not try to settle things with the party, they took it to the media. No one stood up for what was right.

You may call it what you like, but do not ever insinuate what I write is not fair.

[madfloridian]

39. This has to do with a whole state and party leadership.

It is only coincidental that Dean is the chairman.

For a state to follow the leadership of a former president in having a scapegoat for their own votes....it's pretty sad.

It really has little to do with you or me, either.

It is about the fact that this stuff happened...and there is no forgetting without coming to terms.

[mzmolly]

40. .

“The only thing that is going to make John McCain president is disunity among Democrats,” he said “And we cannot afford four more years, essentially, of George W. Bush.” ~ Howard Dean

I have nothing more to say.

[madfloridian]

44. Well, I am all for Obama. So what's the problem?

Just let the lies go on?

[mzmolly]

51. Go on? The person lying about Obama today is McCain. THAT must be our collective focus.

Ask Dean what he meant when he said we need to have to be a united Party. I don't think he had your position on the Clinton's in mind?

[madfloridian]

57. We are united behind Obama....we work with his campaign.

We are not welcome in the party here, but we are welcomed by his campaign.

Dean really has little to do with this now. He probably won't stay on as chair. Can you blame him?

[PresidentObama]

54. Great advice by Clinton. Obama won't win by talking about Palin.

He has to convince people he's ready to lead, and that McCain is not fit to command.

[rvablue]

64. Please get over what "Bill Clinton said in the primary" wah, wah, wah...

Bill Clinton was campaigning for his wife!!!
It was a campaign and differences were drawn and aspersions were cast.
There has been a lot of hand-wringing on this site about how Obama isn't fighting back enough.
Well, Hillary started losing and her campaign fought back and they didn't give up until every vote was counted.
I suppose we can all agree that we want Obama to do the same.
And Bill Clinton, THE BEST campaigner of our time, can help him do that.
For those of you "concerning" that the Clintons don't want Obama to win so she can run in 2012 -- YOU ARE WRONG.
Do you really believe for one millisecond, that experienced, traveled, esteemed, educated (really the list goes on and on and on) Hillary Clinton wants to be usurped in history by Sarah Freakin' Palin??????
Please, just stop bashing the Clintons and fueling the MSM with another "the Democrats aren't united" and "the Clintons are trying to sabotage Obama" meme.
Please, just stop!

[madfloridian]

67. No, not as long as lies remain unanswered. No.

[crazy_vanilla]

86. amen to that

let's just join forces to kick those morons out of the executive branch 'cause they are killing us

[wildeyed]

72. I read that earlier and thought it was sound advice, overall.

Time to refocus and get this campaign back on track. After the past 8 years, we can find something to hit them with.

[olkaz]

76. Get Ross Perot to enter the race. /thread

[mzmolly]

77. Or the Constitution Party Candidate.

:hi:

[wyldwolf]

81. why? Oh, you mistakenly believe Perot got Clinton elected.

[olkaz]

89. mistakenly, haha, yes, mistakenly.

If only Obama could be so lucky to have such a well-funded third party candidate sucking voters exclusively from the Republican opposition.

[wyldwolf]

90. Except Perot didn't "suck voters" exclusively from Bush. Next?

[Major Hogwash]

91. 90% of Perot's votes came from conservatives that didn't like Bush senior.

It's a matter of history.

[wyldwolf]

93. It's a matter of right wing myth... unless you have some proof... which you don't

Come on...

[paulk]

97. what "history" is that, Hogwash?

Readers, where does spin come from? “Clinton won because of Perot” provides a good case study.

Let’s start with some actual data. If Perot hadn’t been in the 92 race, would Bush the elder have beaten Clinton? The exit polling was abundantly clear, and it was widely reported. On November 8, 1992—five days after the election—E. J. Dionne penned a first report in the Post. Headline: “Perot Seen Not Affecting Vote Outcome:”
DIONNE (11/8/92): Ross Perot's presence on the 1992 presidential ballot did not change the outcome of the election, according to an analysis of the second choices of Perot supporters.
The analysis, based on exit polls conducted by Voter Research & Surveys (VRS) for the major news organizations, indicated that in Perot's absence, only Ohio would have have shifted from the Clinton column to the Bush column. This would still have left Clinton with a healthy 349-to-189 majority in the electoral college.

And even in Ohio, the hypothetical Bush "margin" without Perot in the race was so small that given the normal margin of error in polls, the state still might have stuck with Clinton absent the Texas billionaire.

The VRS polled more than 15,000 voters. On November 12, Dionne provided more details about Perot voters:
DIONNE (11/12/92): In House races, Perot voters split down the middle: 51 percent said they backed Republicans, 49 percent backed Democrats. In the presidential contest, 38 percent of Perot supporters said they would have supported Clinton if Perot had not been on the ballot and 37 percent said they would have supported Bush.
An additional 6 percent of Perot voters said they would have sought another third-party candidate, while 14 percent said they would not have voted if Perot had not run.

We all know exit polls are imperfect. But these are the actual available data about the preferences of Perot voters. Nor was this exit poll kept secret. One day after the election, the AP sent the news far and wide. (Headline: “Perot's Voters Would Have Split In a Two-Way Race”):
ASSOCIATED PRESS (11/4/92): Exit polls suggest Ross Perot hurt George Bush and Bill Clinton about equally.
The Voter Research and Surveys poll, a joint project of the four major television networks, found 38 percent of Perot voters would have voted for Clinton and 37 percent would have voted for Bush if Perot had not been on the ballot. Fifteen percent said they would not have voted, and 6 percent listed other candidates.

The data were widely reported—except in the Washington Times, of course. Which brings us to the heart of our question—the question we’ve asked for seven years.

Where does spin come from? In today’s world, spin often comes from kooky-con hacks—and ends up getting recited by liberals. No, the Washington Times never forced its readers to see the data about Perot voters. But soon, the paper was printing letters from kooky-con fabulists—this bit of invention, for example:
LETTER, WASHINGTON TIMES (11/14/92): There is no doubt that Ross Perot drew voters who would otherwise have voted for one or the other of the traditional party candidates. Judging from exit polls and from observing (as best one could) the ethnic and generational makeup of Perot supporters as they appeared on televison, a reasonable conclusion would be that Mr. Perot drew more from Mr. Bush than from Mr. Clinton, by a ratio of at least 6-to-4 (though the would-have-been-Bushers in the Perot column could have been a good deal higher).
But for the purpose of discussion, let's use the 6-4 ratio and divide up the Perot vote and apply it state by state to Mr. Bush and Mr. Clinton.

Thus, we see that Mr. Perot cost Mr. Bush the following states: Ohio, Wisconsin, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Nevada, Montana, Kentucky, Georgia and Colorado with a total of 87 electoral votes. Mr. Clinton still wins in the Electoral College, but his margin there shrinks to 283 to 255.

In terms of popular vote, Mr. Clinton ends up with roughly 51.4 million to 49.7 million for Mr. Bush, a much tighter contest than was shown in the results with Mr. Perot included. And if my 6-4 breakdown was overly generous to Mr. Clinton—as I suspect it is—we would have come very close to a dead heat or a Bush victory.

J— R— B—
Arlington

The writer was drawing a “reasonable conclusion” based on his observations of “the ethnic and generational makeup of Perot supporters as they appeared on televison!” Yep! Based upon careful TV viewing (and a bit of wishful thinking), the writer decided that, absent Perot, we might have seen a flat-out Bush win. The exit polling said that Perot could have affected only one state—Ohio. But the writer “suspected” a 6-4 ratio would be quite good to use. Soon, Wisconsin, New Jersey, Georgia and Colorado were falling to Pappy Bush too.

Even with all this confabulation, JRB only said it would have been a close race absent Perot. Clinton might have won anyway, he conceded. Soon, though, other such analysts abandoned such scruples. For years, it has been conventional wisdom on kooky-con radio that Ross Perot cost George Bush the election. Now, we get to read this drivel right in the pages of Tapped.

Where does spin come from? This matter provides a good case study. To the extent that we have actual data, there is no indication—none whatever—that Clinton would have lost to Bush if Perot hadn’t been in the race. But so what? Within weeks, kooky-cons began to conjure, and their pleasing stories quickly spread. And uh-oh! Fiery liberals kept hearing their story. Thirteen years later, they repeat the tale too.

We hate to pick on Franke-Ruta; indeed, we believe we saw this claim in another liberal forum in the past few weeks, although we can’t remember where. But this episode shows us several things about our modern World of Spin. First, kooky-con fabulists never tire of inventing pleasing stories—pleasing claims which spread quite widely,recited by kooky-cons everywhere. And second: For reasons completely unknown to us, many of our fiery young liberals still aren’t “hip” to this part of our culture. We’ve told them daily, for the past seven years—but some of them still resist such “jive.” Calm down, grandpa, they indignantly say—and soon, they’re reciting kooky-con tales themselves. For years, Rush had to lead the parade on this tale. Now, he has Tapped out there helping him.

Young and foolish, they’d rather recite this kooky cant than accept our incomparable teachings. When will our fiery young liberal elites get a grip on the world they now live in?

JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: Applying his 6-4 voter breakdown—a ratio excessively generous to Clinton—JRB conjured the popular vote had Perot not been in the race (see above). In his first review of the polling, Dionne tried to do the same thing:
DIONNE (11/8/92): In the nationwide popular vote, Clinton's margin over Bush would have been about the same without Perot in the contest.
In the actual vote, Clinton won 43.7 million popular votes to 38.2 million for Bush and 19.2 million for Perot.
According to the VRS estimate, without Perot in the race, Clinton would have won 51.4 million to 45.6 million for Bush. Total turnout would have been smaller, because many Perot supporters said they would not have voted if the independent had not run.

“Clinton’s margin would have been about the same?” How did Dionne make this glaring mistake? Simple! That letter hadn’t yet appeared in the Times, so Dionne had no access to the writer’s observations about “the ethnic and generational makeup of Perot supporters as they appeared on televison.” In short, E. J. jumped to conclusions without all the data. Thirteen years later, right there in Tapped, Franke-Ruta avoids his mistake.

[LittleClarkie]

80. As long as he doesn't suggest Obama support DOMA or something

I'm not completely sold on advice coming from Bill Clinton based on the suggestions he gave Kerry. The last election was about foreign policy, and Bill wanted Kerry to go with the economy.

[Marsala]

83. Hey, I have a great idea!

Let's restart the flame wars between Hillary and Obama supporters! That'll help get the focus off of You-Know-Who for sure!

[mzmolly]

87. I have no idea how this post

could be considered restarting a flame war? Some will flame simply because Clinton is mentioned here.

[amborin]

84. fabulous advice: let's hope the campaign implements it

<http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080912/pl_politico/1... ;_ylt=Alwg81U3BLsBD05FsWXjHJ.s0NUE>


ADVICE from Bill Clinton: sounds good to me:



1. Don’t make this about you.

(don't make it all about biography...voters care about their lives....show them how you'll improve theirs, and use visuals)


2. Define yourself through policies — yours and theirs.

(explain policy proposals in simple terms, and get some catchy slogans)


3. Have more fun.

(destroy them with a smile...don't look rattled)


4.Make the election about something big.

(tie all into a global, large scale transformative idea)


5. Spend more time speaking to your opponents.

(don't assume folks see it like we do...adopt their premises, but shock them with your dem conclusion)

6. Don’t take Hillary voters for granted.


7. Stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking.

(lose the blase, super cool demeanor, get passionate and start taking sleezy politics seriously)

[dailykoff]

88. In fairness, this stale menudo is NOT Clinton's.

It's some RW hack's "reasonably safe bet about" what Clinton's campaign advice to Obama would be.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13394.html

[AtomicKitten]

92. I like it .... evisceration with a smile!

Moving beyond the primary tug-of-war still in progress here :eyes: , I like this bit you posted. In fact, it made ME smile!.

:hi:

[JerseygirlCT]

94. I agree.

Ignore pigs and lipstick and old fish. Start doing what he does best: communicate ideas.

He'll draw huge crowds wherever he goes - he should do it. And he should announce "big" speeches often on big topics of the day.

[JerseygirlCT]

95. Meant to add:

meantime, he needs an army of high-profile dems out there talking about McCain's lies and lies and more lies.

Obama needs them to keep pointing it out, every single time. Have a whole roster, ready to get there and dispute - with facts, pictures, video, the whole deal - every one of the lies.

Meanwhile, Obama is talking about the important issues of the day. McCain can attempt to join him, or keep whining and lying.