Tell me I'm wrong, please.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Okay, in 2000 Democrats yelled at me because I didn't think our candidates were being fierce and savage. I don't need to tell you the outcome of that. In 2004 Democrats yelled at me again because I didn't think our candidates were being fierce and savage. I don't need to go there either. Now we're in 2008 and AGAIN Democrats are yelling at me because I don't think our candidates are being fierce and savage.

Am I wrong?

Or am I right and all those who think fierceness and savagery has no place among Democrats, are just wrong?

Talk to me.

[kestrel91316]

1. Obama is a skilled fighter. He's got finesse and doesn't go for the

sheer brute strength thing. JMHO. He's more like a martial artist than a boxer.

[blondeatlast]

2. You are wrong. We won both elections. nt

[Colobo]

14. Gore yes. Kerry no.

[blondeatlast]

20. Okay, true, but Kerry was up against an incumbent. nt

[amborin]

29. an extremely unpopular opponent...kerry campaign didn't get rovian tactics...didn't know framing

[ProSense]

53. Stop perpetrating that lie.

Extremely unpopular? Bush's rating were still hovering between 49% and the low 50s. Kerry still beat him in all three debates.

Kerry was abandoned by a bunch of second-guessing, backstabbing Democrats when he had the momentum to put Bush away. Whenever Kerry called out Bush on Iraq, no one followed through with his message. Why? They were all still hedging their bets. That's why his bill to set a deadline only got 14 votes.

Oh, and what happened in Ohio. Why did they have to suppress 350,000 votes?

Stop with the BS about framing. Did you forget the constant terror alerts? You think it was easy to tell people to ignore them, they're BS?

[iamthebandfanman]

50. i guess you guys didnt notice ohio

glad their plan worked succesfully

[seabeyond]

49. i disagree. i think there is for sure enough evidence was stolen in ohio. and clear

florida was messed with.

also you had many other state with peculiarities.

i disagree kerry's election wasn't stolen

[CreekDog]

3. it does, but the media treats fierce and savage from Republicans as good strategy

but when Democrats do it, they say that it's negative campaigning, blah blah blah.

but i agree with you in that i wanna hear some fight.

get angry, don't get indignant, get fucking mad once in a while and say that it's because this is important.

our best candidates are the ones that came close, lost (so to speak) and now have nothing to lose. think Gore, Kerry and you know if they spoke the way they speak now, it would not be close, they would've won.

americans like badasses, Democrats need to be badasses for a good cause.

no shame in that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. I agree with you. It's important to get angry once in a while, or at least to attack back

It's interesting what you said about the media accepting ill behavior from Republicans, but not allowing us to engage in it without attacking us. I wonder where that got started, or how.

[rwheeler31]

4. We are us and they are them. What kind of world do you want?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. One in which our candidates attack back HARD? nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. In what respect, Charlie?

:P

[YvonneCa]

23. ...

... :7

[mscuedawg]

6. I think its still early ...people ultimately tire of the attack ads...

and then start turning against...IMO

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. I hope so. Thanks. nt

[mscuedawg]

11. And third times the charm, right? ; )

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. From your mouth to God's ears! nt

[jberryhill]

24. McCain has gone negative waaaaaay too early

...and they expected the Obama campaign to do the same.

The things you know as a DU reader take time to penetrate to the voters, and the polls are laggy.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. True also. We get to find out things that won't reach the mainstream for a long time

I just hope it reaches the mainstream. I try to help by e-mailing a lot of information to other people hoping they will pass on that info.

[Democat]

43. We heard that in 2004 and it was BS then

How many posts here on DU swore that the Swiftboat ads were going to help Kerry and turn the voters against Bush?

That's wishful thinking and it's not going to happen.

Negative ads work. Obama can either hit them harder than they hit him and more often or he can lose the election.

Never doubt that negative ads work. John Kerry doubted it.

[rockymountaindem]

9. You're right

The weirdest thing for me right now is that I defended Kerry during the election and afterwards because I thought he did everything he could. Now, I still think there was no way any Democrat was going to win last time. However, now that I see Obama making some of the same moves as Kerry, I'm beginning to see what people meant back then when they said he wasn't fighting hard enough. I guess it just looks different for me now when it's not my favorite guy up there refusing to go after the opposition in the most effective way.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. Thank you so much. I thought for a moment that I was going crazy

I agree that when it's your guy you want to see everything he does as perfect. But I think there's an illness among us, Democrats, that we just do NOT attack back. As a result, we're seen as the party that won't attack back. I understand this attitude of "be cool, it looks nicer," but frankly, cool is wearing thin on me after so many years.

[Imagevision]

54. Obama does really have plenty of time to get intense, timing, keyword...

Remember when many said the same thing about Obama in the summer because Hillary was maybe scoring more points? same thing back then, for how long can you keep saying the same thing without sounding redundant?
Obama waltzed around Billary and he'll be doing the same thing with McPalin. 9-12 days before the election should be good...

[Muttocracy]

15. Right now Palin is sinking herself and the convention bump is expiring

I'm OK with Obama waiting until after 9/11 to start escalating. Any serious attacks or initiatives in the last couple of weeks would have been swamped by the Palin drama anyway. Her novelty is wearing off fast. The truly undecided wait until the last few days to make up their minds, right?

Another thing - pay attention to the electoral college. Obama and Biden have been making multiple stops per day, almost always each on their own, to PA, OH, MI, IN, WI, NH, VA, FL, IA, CO. They are doing the electoral college math. Palin is energizing bored right-wingers in already-red states who might have stayed home. That may boost the national poll #s a little, but won't change the electoral college, where he's still ahead. And she can't be trusted to campaign alone, and McBush can't handle many events a day.

Edit to add more states - and - Jill and Michelle can campaign on their own too (NM, IA, etc.), unlike Cindy and Todd.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. You're right you're right. Thank you. I needed to hear that.

You're right that the Palin amazement has got to wear off. And yes you're absolutely right that the Palin woman cannot be trusted to open her mouth anywhere because she knows nothing.

I pray hard that our side has something up their sleeves.

That was a relief to hear tho. Thanks again.

[jberryhill]

19. What is "up our sleeves"

...is having the better candidates. Period.

If a gimmick is needed to win, then the only thing elections will decide is who has the better gimmick.

The Obama campaign is doing a very good job at exposing the game, which is a lot better than playing the game.

It's about change.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. Thank you. I'm SO hoping! I guess I've become too desperate after 8 yrs nt

[jberryhill]

35. Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years

You can commit a lot of felonies and get less than 12 years.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. Scary nt

[NYC_SKP]

37. And Reagan and both Bushes were a total of 20 years. TWENTY YEARS! nt

[Muttocracy]

21. I'm banking on Obama's smarts - like timing on Biden's tax returns

Nothing to hide there, so why wait? How about about waiting until the GOP VP is shooting herself in the foot?

One side - scary drama. Other side - calm, honest. That's an OK contrast for now.

And now the tax release ball is right back in John and Cindy and Sarah and Todd's courts.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. Absolutely. nt

[jberryhill]

27. Oh, I'd love to see Todd Palin utter a sentence or two

But it's not going to happen.

[Muttocracy]

31. Jill Biden's campaigning in Iowa Friday-Saturday. Did Todd introduce Sarah at GOP convention? nt

[jberryhill]

34. No - she walked right out on her own with no intro at all..

Because Ghouliani had been hogging the microphone.

The man is mute, I tell you.

If you Google "Todd Palin said" you get:

"I do" when he married Sarah.

His name on a joint statement about Bristol.

Some commentary on snow machine racing.

And that he can't remember much of what happened in Troopergate.

That's why my bet is on Tourette's Syndrome.

[jberryhill]

17. If you had wanted the campaign ads to use nude campaign ads, they wouldn't...

...and you'd still be wrong.

If you had wanted the campaign ads to use chorus lines, they wouldn't. And you'd still be wrong.

Here's your fallacy:

1. I wanted campaigns to do X.
2. Campaigns didn't do X.
3. Campaigns lost.
4. Therefore, if campaigns had done X, they would have won.

When both sides go negative, the result is depression of voter turnout overall.

You have not shown any reason to believe negative campaigning would have widened the margin in 2000 or 2004.

Furthermore, despite the various analyses of 2004 results, it is undisputed that Gore won the popular vote in 2000.

[quakerboy]

18. I think that we are better off

letting the 527's do any savagery that needs doing.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. I'm crossing my fingers and toes. lol What can we do in the meantime?

Just e-mail info around every day like I'm already doing?

[quakerboy]

38. Keep learning and informing

I don't know if this is new, but another post here nudged my mind, and I went and did some research a few moments ago.

Did you know that despite her supposedly high approval rating, Sarah Palin earned less votes from her constituents than any other Governor?

Working for GOTV or the campaign might be more effective than the daily emails, though. Voter reg and voter protection are still the key to this election.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. Oh thank GOODNESS! nt

[elkston]

26. There are like 1,000 other threads about this. STFU (eom)

[1corona4u]

32. This isn't 2000, and it's not 2004.

I think you're wrong. DO you, or do you not, think that mccrap wouldn't use the "angry black man" against Obama? THAT's the danger, and I REALLY wish people would think about that. They would trip OVER dead people to get that out there.

And frankly, I am fucking sick of people second guessing Obama. And, by the way, stop comparing this election to ANY other, because it's not like ANY other, EVER, in the history of politics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. Okay fine, but everyone is always telling me I'm second guessing our candidates....

I don't believe ANYONE is perfect. No one.

[Democat]

40. Another concern troll?

Don't you know, the Democratic campaigns (Gore, Kerry, Obama) can do no wrong. We the people need to shut up and sit down and let these guys run our presidential campaigns as wimpy as they want!

:evilgrin:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. It's very frustrating to me. And I'm not mean about it or anything...

... I just want them to be FIERCE WARRIORS when they run for office. I don't think that's a lot to ask of a candidate. :(

[johnaries]

39. Then we would be "them".

How would we be different if we did the same things they do? The lure of the Dark Side is strong, you must resist it.

[Democat]

42. Resist doing what they do?

You mean winning, governing, and appointing supreme court justices?

We've been resisting that too long.

Time to get dirtier, meaner, and more brutal than the Republicans.

[rockymountaindem]

52. Exactly n/t

[Sugarcoated]

41. Okay.

You're wrong.

[crankychatter]

44. "In that case, I'll go underground.... and get some heavy rest....

...then I won't have to worry, about what is worse, and what is best."

vm

[treestar]

45. The voters are to blame, not the campaigns

People have to be what they are. Obama/Biden, Kerry, Gore are not evil liars. If the people choose to elect evil liars and respond to negativity, they deserve what they get. They deserve the last 4 years. They should have kicked the republicans out merely for the Swiftboat ad. They started getting wiser in 2006. That is what is different. In 2004 and 2000 they had not yet seen the light but here 2006 shows they are starting to get it and may well show that again this time.

[seabeyond]

48. i think you are wrong. i think we won 2000. i think we won 2004. i think it is stolen

election that should be focused on, because i think obama will win this too. whether he gets into the whitehouse is another story

[Erin Elizabeth]

51. I don't know, man. I don't know.

I know my bills are too high and things are bad and too many of my friends have been laid off and I can hardly afford to take care of an ear infection anymore.

I know four more years of Republican fuckery is just going to do us in.

[chicagoexpat]

55. OK, since u ask, U'RE WRONG! Now go & volunteer at ur local office 2 make sure it don't happen again

[Imagevision]

56. Bill Clinton a couple of days ago; "Obama will win handily"

[salonghorn70]

57. I'm Not Sure Fierce And Savage Is Good

They just have to play smart. And I think they are doing that.

[Hard Leftt]

58. My Opinion....obviously, lol

Obama made a big mistake going after MOOSELINI

That's BIDEN'S Job, and he has been invisible, except to suggest that he was the wrong pick. DOH!

The number 1 on the ticket should NEVER go after the number 2 on the other ticket. It made him look petty and unpresidential.

He seems to be back on message now, which is good.

P.S. Call me a troll all you want. I can analyze things objectively, it's not like we're going UP in the polls recently.

[Solomon]

59. He didn't go after Palin. That's your spin and I might add,

it's the same spin that the republicans are selling. Epic Fail.

[Hard Leftt]

61. Feel free to keep your head in the sand

Cheerleading = epic fail. Sorry if I refuse to fall into line on every topic like most people

[MaraJade]

60. Savagery has it's place, but

in actual hand-to-hand combat, not in elections. Savagery does not win wars. Strategy does; and strategy is a
function of reason.

Sun Tzu said, "One hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the most skillful. Seizing the enemy without fighting is the most skillful." Use of logic and reason to take away the enemy's reason to fight is the best thing.

You see, savagery smacks of incivility and is the mark of people who are poor debaters. Savagery turns honest people off.
Savagery creates VICTIMS and VENDETTAS. Savagery creates war without end.

People tend to get fierce and combative when they are unable to appeal to logic. Savagery may win the approval of other uncivilized
people, but it always ends up in the "Lord of the Flies" effect, where the savages eventually turn on and cannibalize
each other when the enemies or perceived enemies are gone. Everything ends in destruction.

Appeals to reason and common sense are far more effective and allow one to always occupy the higher ground.

And, as anyone involved in war knows, occupying the higher ground gives the most advantage.

[brindis_desala]

62. I'll admit that Bush won in 2004... AFTER

someone explains how Bush could lose over 20% of his rural base and win the overwhelmingly Democratic cities. If the Obama campaign doesn't have a handle on that smelly little statistic hello President McCain. And from the lame campaign he's been running I suspect Johnny knows the game.