Saying "abortion=anti-women" is incorrect and won't work this election.

[adoraz]

Anti-choice is fine to say.

Way too many times I have seen people refer to abortion as being "anti-women". That is a pretty stupid assumption, and it isn't going to win any debates.

Yes, I will say that there are SOME out there who are anti-choice because they are anti-women, but most are pro-life because of religious beliefs.

Take my mom, for example. She is pro-life. She supports Barack Obama though, because she is also very much against the war. She is a great example of someone who is truly pro-life. She is a Catholic, so she does believe life starts at conception. Even though many might ignorantly consider her abortion views "anti-women", she is very much a feminist. She is completely against Palin because she thinks Palin will set women really far back.

I have seen many liberals refer to this being anti-women, but it won't work this election. We are running against a woman who is 100% against abortion, much more than John McCain is. Somehow, Sarah Palin has a very high favorable rating with both men and women. Many independent women are flocking to Palin. We can assume most of these independent women don't have strong abortion views.

Palin is an extreme fundamental Christian. Everyone knows how anti-choice/pro-life she is, and most people don't seem to care.

My point is, you are not going to win an argument saying Palin's abortion views are "anti-women". Obviously, first and foremost she is a women, so most will not take you seriously. Second, if you accuse her of this, she will use religion as the reason and accuse people of not respecting her faith.

You can obviously make the case against abortion, but stating Palin is anti-women because of it is a losing battle.

We should instead point out McCain/Palin being against equal pay. That is a great way to refer to them being anti-women. That way, they really can't justify it with religion or anything.


EDIT-

maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I'm saying that generalizing all anti-choice people as being anti-women is incorrect. It is true that some are, but not everyone.

[BlooInBloo]

1. (shrug) A whole lot of anti-woman sentiment is due to religion...

Just another of religion's cute little gifts to humanity.

[adoraz]

3. so what are you implying then?

even if you believe that, what do you want us to do?

condemn religion? that sounds like a great idea.

you aren't going to be able to convince people, no matter how strongly you believe it.

[BlooInBloo]

8. Hush, melodramatic one.

[adoraz]

11. care to come up with a mature response?

[Honeycombe8]

19. It's an indirect sort of argument, which I agree is not helpful. Much of church-sanctioned

religion is steeped in the premise that women are less than men. Literally. Such is the nature of many religions of the world.

But I agree that many who are pro-life are pro-life because of a belief system that they don't recognize as being anti-woman. It may not be. Then again, it is an indirect argument that if the belief is based upon the Bible, and the Bible was written solely by men of the Church (it was...though it was supposedly revealed to them via prophets), and the Church believed (as it did) that women were less worthy than men...then an indirect argument can be made that beliefs that deny women certain rights are rooted in the belief that women are less worthy of full rights than men.

But that's a roundabout, indirect argument that can't be effective in a political campaign. And it's not a good idea to get people in the short term to change their entire belief systems.

I agree that most who are pro-life believe that that is the moral way to believe. But I also believe that many (not all) have never been confronted with a situation that would put them in the position of considering an alternative. I speak mainly about one's son getting a girl pregnant...where the abortion would be visited upon someone else's child. I think this would be tempting for many parents of sons with bright futures that would end upon having an illegitimate child with child support and responsibilities for the rest of the child's life.

[OneGrassRoot]

2. Another DUer had an excellent line about being "pro-life":

When someone is pro-life yet supports war, death penalty, etc., counter with, "Well, you're not really pro-life, you're just pro-birth."

They're on their own in this sick world beyond the fetus stage...as Obama said, "even if they were born without bootstraps to pull up."

[adoraz]

4. that's not the point

there are many, many true pro-life people, such as my mom.

by generalizing everyone against abortion as being against women is ignorant.

[spotbird]

10. The antiabortion rights people are almost universally

just pro-birth.

Is your mom bothered by all the Republican stands which cause death and suffering?

[adoraz]

13. yes she is, she is an Independent

and usually votes Democrat because of it.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. Yes, I understand your point. I wasn't trying to deter from your point which you...

made quite well. My apologies if it seemed I contradicted or hijacked in some way.

[adoraz]

17. thanks, and I agree with your original point

[Bubbha Jo]

9. Palin is typical of a lot of those supposedly "pro-life"

They find something better to do after the fetus has left the womb, such as she has found another priority besides her 4 month old special needs infant. Ta ta!

[sandnsea]

5. Forcing women to carry rapists' babies

even if it endangers their health - is anti-woman.

Forcing women to pay for their own rape test kits - is anti-woman.

You have to ridicule women's rights in order to be successful in states like Alaska. It's just the way it is. She would say she's anti-feminazi.

[adoraz]

12. I agree with that, I think people are missing the point though

I'm saying you can't just generalize all anti-choice people as being anti-women.

We can pound Palin on those points.

[spotbird]

6. Women will suffer without choice and birth control

so the policy is anti-woman. None of those who are offended by the expression would vote sesibly anyway.

[liberalmuse]

7. Choice is the issue, not abortion.

They find this impossible to understand. Once you allow someone a choice, that is where you drop it. The question of whether or not that person decides to have an abortion or have the baby is about 3 stops after you've already gotten off the train.

[Starry Messenger]

14. A nit-pick if you don't mind.

"My point is, you are not going to win an argument saying Palin's abortion views are "anti-women". Obviously, first and foremost she is a women, so most will not take you seriously."

Most women can tell you that there are a ton of women who are "anti-women". They will take this seriously. I don't know about men, but nearly all woman have had experience with amazingly crappy female bosses, teachers, doctors etc. who go out of their way to be crueler to members of their own gender. It's not all hearts and flowers here in vagina-america.

MPK </.02>

edit: clarification

[Stop Cornyn]

16. The issue isn't abortion or choice, it's rape. If a woman is raped, Palin believes the woman must

carry the rapist's baby to term and then either raise it or give it up for adoption.

McCain has previously suggested another position on raped women, but he's in the midst of such a full-scale retreat from everything he once espoused now that he's entered the twilight of his career, that we can no longer assume that his choice of Palin doesn't represent a flip floip on this issue, too.

[sampsonblk]

18. I second that

Its incorrect and won't work this election.

[Hansel]

20. Pt taken. But I would add anti-choice does not equal pro-life either.

I'm very pro-life, but I still believe in a woman's right to choose.

There are many people who described themselves as "pro-life" who support war and bombing, who are for the death penalty, even some who kill unarmed people in clinics and churches. I beg to differ with their self-assessment.

I'm particularly sensitive about this issue because if so called "pro-lifers" had their way I would be dead today. Two Catholic doctors, who pushed their beliefs onto me, intentionally ignored very clear symptoms that the baby I was carrying was dead because they did not want to do an abortion. Besides the malpractice, their so called "pro-life" stance nearly killed me. And if the original doctor had removed the IUD as I had asked him to instead of pretending he couldn't find it, my baby might be alive as well.

I think those who are pro-choice need to reclaim that term. When someone tells me they're pro-life, I say "yes, so am I. But I still believe in a woman's right to choose." I refuse to allow myself to be defined as "anti-life" by default. Especially by a group of people whose mindset likely killed my baby and would have seen me dead as well if it hadn't been for Plan Parenthood.