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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 07:01 PM
Original message
Help with an email (#2)
Ok, same guy in my class, emailing me his concerns about Obama. Like I said in #1, I'd like your insight into this and the best way to respond:

This email will focus more on my personal beliefs and issues with today's Democrats. In particular, I'll start with Barack Hussein Obama and my concerns about his candidacy.

1) Is Obama a Racist? Honestly, I suspect so but he won't actually answer the question. However, Obama heavily favors Affirmative Action and Race-Based set asides (in 1998, he endorsed gubnatorial candidate John Schmidt and praised to the Chicago Defender Schmidt's support for such programs). The Chicago Defender documents his blatant race-based voting and stances going back for years. His website for his presidential campaign had a link to the New Black Panthers to support the groups blatantly racist leader Malik Shabazz. He will not account for close associations with Rashid Khalidi (a strongly anti-Israel Columbia Professor), Ali Abunimah (a terrorist support who runs the Electronic Intifada), Hatem El-Hady (former official of a Hamas-linked charity) who was also linked to Obama's page until it was exposed, Robert Malley (a foreign policy advisor caught secretly negotiaging with Hamas).

2) National Security. I just saw an interview where Obama vowed to end a host of military R&D programs including SDI Missile Defense, the Future Warrior program, and others. He wants to withdraw our military from Iraq, and negotiate with terrorists and states like Iran on an unconditional basis. He seems dismissive of any threat to America as seen in his threat that Iran is incapable of hurting us if it came to a fight.

3) Universal Health Care -- this is a big issue and I am against it.

4) Economy -- Obama has stated that he is against people being responsible and addressing their own health care, education costs, child care, reitirement plans, and so forth. He wants to government to provide all this and seems to intend to raise taxes on those who have money to pay for it. I work hard for my money, and I'd like to keep it, thank you. However, if I do choose to help out my fellow Americans, it will be my choice....I don't need Obama's superior morality to chose for me. Obama supports increasing government requirements to give loans and contracts to minorities (or he intends to take my tax money and give it to people based on their skin color and not their merit).

5) Israel -- this is a big issue for me. And he lies whenever he talks about it, then reverses to offer concesions to the Arabs. I don't want a President that needs to be forced into supporting Israel.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. You won't change his mind any more than he will change yours
Find something more productive to expend your energy on, unless you enjoy playing an endless game of Whack-A-Mole.
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hmmm.
Ask for sources and/or links to support his "concerns". He's making a lot of accusations with no background. If he wants intelligent answers, he must ask intelligent questions based on valid information (not as in this case...MISinformation.)
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sheesh...
How I would respond (that he begins the e-mail by insisting on including Obama's middle name is a bad sign):
========================================================================================================
This email will focus more on my personal beliefs and issues with today's Democrats. In particular, I'll start with Barack Hussein Obama and my concerns about his candidacy.

1) Is Obama a Racist? Honestly, I suspect so but he won't actually answer the question.


He won't answer the question? When has anyone ever asked him? I can't think of a time, and for good reason, any journalist would have to be clinically insane to ask the guy with the black father, white mother, half white half Indonesian sister who was raised by his white grandparents after he lived with his Indonesian stepfather... the guy who gave what is widely regarded as one of the most powerful and insightful speeches on race relations in U.S. history... if he was a racist. They would be laughed out of their profession for even suggesting anything that mind bogglingly ridiculous.

And no, he did not have a link to the black panthers on his website. Some poster on his website's social networking area had one.

I don't see exactly why he would have to "explain" having an association with a respected professor at the University he attended just because that professor isn't a huge fan of Isreal (being Palestinian, not exactly a surprise).

Ali Abunimah isn't even a close association, the guy says he met Obama. Wow. And he's a *writer*, not a "terrorist supporter".

He doesn't even appear to have THAT level of "association" with El-Hady, the sole connection between them seems to be that someone created a fundraising page on that same social networking site under that name... which was later removed.

And Malley was not "caught secretly negotiating with Hamas". He talked to them. He's a specialist in conflict resolution whose job at the International Crisis Group is to look into these situations. He briefs the State Department on these meetings before and after he has them. What do you suppose he was doing?

This entire line of reasoning is purely silly.

2) National Security. I just saw an interview where Obama vowed to end a host of military R&D programs including SDI Missile Defense, the Future Warrior program, and others. He wants to withdraw our military from Iraq, and negotiate with terrorists and states like Iran on an unconditional basis. He seems dismissive of any threat to America as seen in his threat that Iran is incapable of hurting us if it came to a fight.


Obama supports slowing the Future Combat Systems program. McCAIN has called the same system "wasteful and bloated". Hmmm...

He isn't the only one who wants the troops to withdraw from Iraq... the Iraqis do too. They have explicitly stated they want a withdrawal timetable. This WAS supposed to be about giving them a free and democratic sovereign state and not a power play to seize control of their land and resources right? That means when they say "thank you, leave *our* country now" you're supposed to leave. It's their country remember? We're liberators, not occupiers... at least that's supposed to be the line...

Yes, he wants to talk to Iran. You think if you give them the silent treatment they're going to go away and behave themselves? Or are you going to make the argument that talking to them at all somehow gives them what they want? Like a verbal exchange with the leadership of the United States is at the top of their national wishlist or something? They're just acting out because they want attention and if we give it to them it'll reinforce negative behavior? Talking to foreign leaders is what diplomacy is, it's supposed to be the president's *job*. After the last 8 years that fact may have slipped from the national consciousness a bit but it's still true. Obama has NEVER said he wants to negotiate with terrorists. Ever. And you are twisting his statement on Iran's level of threat. He was making an argument that it's ridiculous to say we can't talk to Iran by saying that Iran is, *compared to the old Soviet Union*, a tiny threat (which it obviously is). And that we still talked to the Soviets so we can talk to Iran.

3) Universal Health Care -- this is a big issue and I am against it.


Because... then we might end up like those poor Canadians? With everyone covered, nobody ever bankrupted by medical costs, longer life expectancies, lower infant morality, and spend 30% less money doing it per capita as the U.S. government currently spends on the system we have now?

You don't really fall for that "Socialized Medicine!!!!! Boo!!!" scare line do you? Bottom line is it works better than what we have. WAY better. (Please don't now point me to some anecdotal story of someone's Canadian aunt who had to wait a long time for an MRI or something as the proof that it's somehow worse.)

4) Economy


Economists: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003850214

5) Israel -- this is a big issue for me. And he lies whenever he talks about it,


Provide an example. When you do, back up the claim it's a lie if you don't mind.
======================================================================================================================
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Awesome!
I glanced through this and it almost made my head explode. Reading every line, I though, "WTF?! That's not true because..."

I really appreciate your help!

:yourock:


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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. If he still insists on being an idiot after you send him that
.
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Somehow,
I think he'll remain an idiot. It's safe for him. But, I did read and enjoy that post and have used the links in it :)
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You're right
I've wasted time arguing with people in that 20-30% (the ones who still defend Bush) as recently as last week. A friend of a friend of a friend is a hardcore conservative. My friend sent her my 'Do The Facts Support John McCain Email' and surprisingly she responded.

Well, she and her husband responded to each point. Only one (huge) problem: They didn't include ONE link to support any of their rebuttals to my points, despite the fact that I supported EVERY claim with a source.

They *did* make reference to the Heritage foundation (no link, just mentioned it by name) before they rattled off some false stats. In my response back I pointed out that no undecided voter should trust them considering that they include no links. I added that the Heritage Foundation is a right wing think tank and that they may as well have referenced the McCain Campaign website as a source.

Long story short, I don't know why I wasted so much time debunking their absurd rebuttals...I just have a hard time letting lies and misinformation go, especially in the context of this critical upcoming election.
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I know how that goes
I'm in the Navy, so I'm always subjected to whack jobs and their Faux news talking points. The ignorance in this country has really reached a critical point. We're about to become an idiocracy. I did notice that his email included no emails, while I sent him an email chock full of them. Ugh...I've really only got one rebuttal in me. After that, it's hopeless anyways.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I know you meant to say "links", not "emails"
:)
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Told you I couldn't do this on my own
hahaha
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. re: universal health care
Ask him if he has any idea how much it's costing the taxpayer for everyone who isn't insured. Health care systems don't eat these expenses. They pass them on to the rest of us in higher fees, which in turn, increases health insurance premiums. Also, since people who are not insured wait too long to seek care, they are usually much sicker with more complications, requiring a much higher level of care (ie, ER, ICU) and a longer stay as an inpatient. Guess who pays for all of that? Feel free to quote me. I'm a retired Navy Nurse with 35 years combined military and civilian experience, so I feel at least a little qualified to speak to this subject. Good luck with this guy, but I think he's probably intellectually lazy and a contraian, to boot. If your trying to win a convert, I doubt he's going to be the one. Sounds like it's just a game with him.
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I like your facts
I have heard them before, but I will probably quote you.

I do know that the US spends more in health care costs than any other nation and we have the highest rate of preventable death in industrialized nations. We are the only "1st world" country that doesn't provide for our citizenry. It's pathetic.
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