I need help arguing with a Republican

[Anwen]

He is pro-McCain, and no matter how much I sing the praises of Obama, it comes down to one issue for him -- less government. This is his argument:

"Limited government gets my vote every time. The more they get involved the worse it gets. I like taking care of myself."


What can I say in response?? Any advice would be appreciated. I know nothing I say will make him vote Obama, but I feel like I should say SOMETHING.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. This may not persuade him but it's my favorite response to that argument

http://home.comcast.net/~theyellowdog/joerepublican.htm

[Juche]

34. nice

I've never seen that before but its really good.

As for the OP your friend doesn't take care of himself. There are so many regulations protecting him, many inventions other people made he is using and many services he can't provide himself he uses daily. He is standing on the shoulders of giants so big he can't possibly fathom them. But he seems to get a kick out of telling himself he is a self made man.

Ask him if he thinks its ok if China imports toys coated with lead to save money on quality control.

[muntrv]

2. "Less govt" is the reason why we have this debacle on Wall Street.

Also, does he/she support "less government" when it comes to spying on US citizens?

[polichick]

4. Yep - ask how that's workin' for him!

[holiday]

9. When republicans say less gov't they really only mean less

gov't for CORPORATIONS and look where that has gotten us. They want more gov't when it comes to our lives. What's the saying.. Republicans want corporate responsibility personal accountability.. whereas dems want corporate accountability personal responsibility. seems like I heard that before.

Social republicans want to force you to carry a baby full term, say who can and can't get married, force you to live by Christian religion etc etc

[Botany]

3. Less government =

Fanny May ... Fredie Mac .... Bear-Sterns ... AIG ..... Lehman Brothers ....
Mortgage Meltdown .... Katrina Floods

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Obama will limit

government's intrusion on our liberties--like reinstituting the Bill of Rights for starters.

Oh, and ask him if he likes the idea of his health insurance benefits being taxed by the government--that's McCain's idea.

[Owl]

6. Remember Bush/Cheney's "shadow government"?

[islandmkl]

7. has he been paying any sort of attention for the past 8 years??

...ask him how that Repuke Congress did for the country from 1994 to 2006...and beyond, thanks to their ability to prevent much majority legislation since 2007...

[treestar]

8. He's under that Libertarian/Ayn Rand sort of spell

The government is limited, due to the Bill of Rights, mainly, and it is the republicans who are clamping down on that as hard as they can. They angled for more and more executive power, and have done nothing to respect the limitation on it and have in fact tried to do away with as many of them as they could. And will continue to do it.

another interesting angle: ask if he thinks the government should get out of regulating immigration and just give visas to whoever an employer wants to hire. Why should the government interfere? This one always flummoxes that kind of conservative, because they know they want the government to restrict that. Yet their attitudes towards free market capitalism are such that to be consistent they should allow the employer to hire whoever they want (they are usually also against the minimum wage and all other worker-protective types of laws, because that is the goverment interfering - so why is this one OK?).

[seemunkee]

10. Does he think taking over Freddie and Fannie is shrinking the size of govt?

Expanding Homeland security?

[polichick]

11. I've found that those who talk about "less government" really mean...

...I don't want any of my money going to help "lazy" people.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. I would point out that Bush has expanded the government and that McCain agrees with him 90% of the

time.

[Beaverhausen]

15. that's it in a nutshell.

[blondeatlast]

13. How did his 401 K do yesterday? That whole airport security mess?

Thank you, Ronald Reagan and both George Bushes.

[Marsala]

14. Tell him that Republicans are not the party of less government

Government ballooned under Bush and McCain has no serious proposals to shrink it. So it will continue to get bigger. If he really wants to shrink government, tell him to vote Libertarian.

[Motown_Johnny]

16. Tough one. Anyone that narrow minded won't grasp reality. You can point out that if we had

some more government regulation in the banking industry then our economy wouldn't be so fucked up right now

You can point out that if we had more government inspections then the food scares that have plagued our nation would not have happened

You can argue that with more government inspections then imports from China would not be poisoned, like toothpaste or pet foods.

You could try to find out if someone in his/her family are ill and are helped by things like lower pollution levels. Or cleaner water.. etc.


Unlikely any of this will work. I would suggest you ask him/her to move to a deserted island where there is no government, that way we all win.

[Historic NY]

17. Ask him why Republicans are Socialists when it come to bailing out Wall St..

[Quixote1818]

18. It's the other way around! Republicans = more Gov. Focus on these things

This is the biggest con-job Republicans have ever pulled off. It's the other way around by a long shot. Democratic policies = less Gov no doubt about it.

Focus on these things

1. Spending under Republicans skyrockets and drops when Dems are in office. This is just a fact.
2. Terri Schiavo - I can fill you in if you don't know about this huge Republican embarrassment
3. Republicans want Religion and Politics to mix so they can decide what your values are and control you
4. The Patriot Act

[FLyellowdog]

26. Not to mention...

Republicans want to put government into my UTERUS. If that's not big government, I don't know what is. Just so they'll know...I mentioned it.

[calimary]

31. Yeah, that's where I go, directly, also. I guess if they want government "off your back,"

it still has to go somewhere. :eyes:

[mikekohr]

19. JOB CREATION

Many Americans have seen the charts that show George W. Bush to be the first president since Herbert Hoover to have a negative monthly job creation rate. But Bush's colossal failure to manage the economy overshadows a much larger story. The record shows two unmistakable patterns:

1). Every time a Republican succeeds a Democrat in the White House, the job creation rate plummets.
2). Every time a Democrat succeeds a Republican in the White House, the job growth rate soars. Every time! No exceptions!

Over the last sixty years, the decrease in job creation when a Republican succeeds a Democrat is 136,375 for the 1st term served and an overall decrease of 124,500 for all terms served.



In that same period, whenever a Democrat succeeds a Republican, the job creation rate soars by 136,667 for the 1st term served and 124,333 for all terms served.

Considering the steady growth in population of the United States during this time frame one would conclude that the job creation rate should steadily increase each year. This trend only manifests itself when examining Democratic administrations:

Listed below is the average job growth increase for all terms served:

Democratic Record: Republican Record:

Truman +86,500 Eisenhower +36,000
Kennedy +122,000 Nixon +117,000
Johnson +206,000 Reagan +166,000
Carter +218,000 G. H. Bush +52,000
Clinton +238,500 G. W. Bush -69,000
----------------- ----------------------
+174,200 +60,400
Jobs gained per month Jobs gained per month

[mikekohr]

23. REAL GDP

REAL GDP RECORD DEMOCRAT VERSUS REPUBLICAN



Truman + 6.7%
Eisenhower +2.5%
Kennedy-Johnson +5.2%
Nixon-Ford + 2.7%
Carter +3.4%
Reagan +3.4%
Bush I +1.9%
Clinton +3.6%
Bush II +2.6%

[mikekohr]

25. GROSS OLD PERVERTS

GOP
Gross Old Perverts


In the last 30 months 16 Republican perverts have been exposed: Jeffery Ray Nielsen ® CA, Donald Fleischman ® WI, Ted Klaudt ® SD, Richard Curtis ®WA, Larry Craig ®ID, Bob Allen ®FL, Mark Foley ®FL, Michael A. Flory ®MI, Glen Murphy ®IN, John D.R. Atchison ®FL, Dennis Gallagher ®NY, Randall Tobias ® DC, David Vitter ® LA, Judge Alex Kosinski ® CA, Vito Fossella ® NY, Robert Scomma ® MA.
This rogue's gallery accounts for at least 11 cases of infidelity, 7 cases of prostitution/solicitation, 1 case of bestiality, 3 cases of rape/sexual assault, 7 cases of pedophilia, 1 case of supplying alcohol and marijuana to a minor, and 16 cases of hypocrisy.
The Republican Party is the party of "Family Values," if your idea of a family is the Manson Family.

mike kohr

[mikekohr]

27. CREDIT CARD REPUBLICANISM

Bush’s economic policy is the single largest cause of the exploding national deficit. Federal domestic discretionary spending has exploded under Bush and his budget will add $1.3 trillion to the National Debt over the next decade. “The Saint Petersburg Times,” calls Bush’s debt reduction plan “Deficit Deceit,” noting that Bush’s privatization of Social Security alone, will add an additional $2 trillion to the national debt over 20 years.
Bush’s economic policy, in his first year turned the greatest surplus in history to the greatest deficit in history, a swing of over $500 billion in a single year. Secretary of the Treasury, Paul O’Neil raised alarm but was dismissed by Dick Cheney who said, “Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter.”
Deficits do matter and have real consequences. Economic historian, J. Bradford DeLong of the University of California, wrote “Reagan’s economic policy was a disaster … and the deficits slowed economic growth in the 1980's significantly.” Reagan’s own member of the Council of Economic Advisors, William A. Niskanen, notes that deficits make us, “….terribly dependant and terribly vulnerable.”
Author Michael Kinsley writes, since 1960, Republican administrations have increased Federal spending by $60 billion a year, nearly double that of Democrats. National debt has increased by $200 billion per year under Republicans, twice the increase of Democrats. The results are predictable. GDP (adjusted for inflation) averages $212 billion for Democrats only $165 billion for Republicans. Democratic economic policy increases real per capita income for individuals at a rate 30% better than Republicans. Democrats outperform Republicans on inflation 3.13% to 3.89%. Republican policies result in increases in unemployment at an average of 6.38% as opposed to falling unemployment when Democrats take office, achieving an average of 5.33%.
Kinsley wrote, ”The party with the best record of serving Republican economic values are the Democrats. And it isn’t even close.”
Fiscal responsibility has its rewards beyond the numbers noted above. CNN reported that the Clinton administration balanced the budget, and paid off $355 billion of the National Debt. The interest saved on paying down this debt added 54 years to the fiscal solvency of Social Security. When Bush tells us he wants to save Social Security he is telling us in effect, he wants to save it from himself, hoping to be the hero of his own self-inflicted disaster.
The National Debt is over $7,762,096,350,500.00, growing by over $1.68 billion per day, a birth tax of $26,213.97 for every man, woman and child in the country. By 2030, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid will grow to the size of today’s ENTIRE Federal budget. That light at the end of the tunnel is not day-light, it’s the headlight of a freight train named Credit Card Republicanism, coming to crush our children and grandchildren, to whom we are handing this crippling debt. Shame on us.

mike kohr

[mikekohr]

29. “THE PARTY WITH THE BEST RECORD OF SERVING REPUBLICAN ECONOMIC VALUES IS THE DEMOCRATS

1). FEDERAL SPENDING: since 1960 Republicans increased Federal Spending by 71% more than have Democrats

2). FEDERAL DEBT: since 1960 Republicans have increased the National debt by 100% more per year than have Democrats.

3). GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT: since 1921, adjusted for inflation, Democrats out-produce Republicans by 43% . Starting in 1940 the Democratic advantage is 23% better.

4). REAL PER CAPITA INCOME: since 1960 Democrats have outperformed Republicans by 30%. (This is perhaps the most important economic statistic of all)

5). INFLATION: since 1960, Democrats outperform Republicans 3.13% to 3.89%

6). UNEMPLOYMENT: since 1960 it decreases in an average Democratic year by 0.3% to 5.33%, and increases in average Republican year by 1.1% to 6.38%.

7). JOB CREATION: from 1945 to 2003, Democrats produced 174,200 jobs per month, Republicans have only produced 60,600 per month. Every time a Democrat succeeds a Republican, job creation soars. Every time a Republican succeeds a Democrat job creation plummets. NO EXCEPTIONS!

8). DOW JONES AVERAGE: since 1921 the DOW has increased by 52% more under Democratic administrations

9). THE BOND MARKET: since 1940 the value of 10 year Treasury bonds rose 1.2% under Democrats and fell 0.5% under Republicans


SOURCES-Bureau of Labor Statistics, Economic Policy Institute, Christian Science Monitor, “The Los Angles Times -Michael Kingsley-

by mike kohr 3/7/2006

RESULTS MATTER, VOTE DEMOCRATIC!

[TheCowsCameHome]

20. Ask him why McCain has spent his entire lifetime living off of it.

[ihavenobias]

21. Well

You can point out that government grew less under Clinton than it did under Reagan, Bush Sr and Bush Jr.

Also, according to independent analysts, McCain's tax plan would increase the national debt by over 1 million dollars more than Obama's plan (you may or may not want to leave out the fact that Obama's plan will also add to the debt...if I remember right it's 2.5-3 trillion for Obama's plan vs 4 trillion for McCAin).

If he makes less than $112k individually ask him why he wants to pay more taxes. If he gets his health insurance from his employer ask him why he wants to pay more taxes. If he wants to see the stock market and average wage growth for the middle class improve, ask him why in the world he supports McCain. If he's worried about out of control spending and debt, point out to him under which presidents most overspending and borrowing occurs (hint: Republicans).

But don't take my word for it and don't expect him to take your word for it. Rather, that has all of that (and more) spelled out very simply, with a link to back up every claim.

[Wapsie B]

22. No you don't.

What this person is doing is planting seeds of doubt in others. That's all people like him have to go on, anger, doubt and fear. If you know in your heart that your way is the right way to go don't worry about his ranting. Don't let his fear get to you. Just tell him you'll be there for him when it all comes crashing down. That is if you want to be there for him.

[ContinentalOp]

24. Just punch him in the nuts.

Seriously though:

The Bush administration is responsible for the biggest expansion of the federal government in 50 years!

I wish I could find that comic strip that shows the deficit under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush 2, in a great, simplified way. It has caricatures of all four of them with big arrows that are like a chart and point downward for the 3 Republican borrow-and-spend administrations and a big arrow up for the Clinton surplus.

[PerfectSage]

28. More war = more government

[knixphan]

30. What's our national debt - anyone?

[debbierlus]

32. Uhm....government bureuracracy increased under Republicans

Wtf is he talking about?

Does he also think that they are 'fiscal' conservatives - cutting taxes in a time of war and creating the highest trade and fiscal deficits in the nations history?

I would tell him to stop embarrassing himself repeating Republican talking points and wake the hell up.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0409j.asp

[quakerboy]

33. How will 100 Years in Iraq

yield less government?

How will increased domestic surveilance result in less government?

How does the war on drugs result in less government?

Etc.

[Anwen]

35. Thanks for the help, everyone!

These are some great talking points! I know it will be like trying to reason with a brick wall, but I felt like I had to say something when I KNOW his argument is flimsy at best (and as I suspected, not even true). Well, here I go... Thanks again for the great ideas! :)

[Patsy Stone]

40. Obama on MTP: 10/22/2006

Also, remind him that the Bush Administration created DHS, a whole new chunk of government.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15304689/page/2/

SEN. OBAMA: Well, you know, I think that if you look at how our health care system is structured right now—I’m, I’m a big supporter of Medicaid and Medicare, but I think that there’s no doubt that we could squeeze more efficiencies out of those, those systems there. Simple example, we don’t, we don’t use electronic billing for Medicare and Medicaid providers. Now, the—there’s no other business on earth that still has people filling out paper forms to get reimbursed, especially for a system that large. We could drastically reduce the costs of those systems.

So the—overall, when you look at the federal budget, one of the problems that I’ve discovered, you know, during the time that I’ve been in Washington, is we don’t seem to have any mechanism where we look at the entire budget, and we make priorities. It is a piecemeal, haphazard process. And part of what I’d like to see is some more discipline and structure to how our budget process proceeds, part of the reason why I worked, for example, with Republican Tom Coburn. Recently a bill was signed by the president that we had passed, that would call for all federal spending to be on a searchable Internet database. That’s part of the reason why one of the provisions that I included in a recent appropriations bill called for the end to no big contracts when it came to Katrina reconstruction.

There, there are a number of steps where we could obtain significant savings, and that money could be applied to programs that do work. And one of the things that I’ve always said is, is that if you’re progressive, you have at least as much of a stake, if not more, in efficient government as fiscal conservatives, because money wasted on things that we don’t need is money that we could have put into programs that do help the American people.

<snip>

SEN. OBAMA: I think, I think the categories we’ve been using were forged in the ‘60s. You know, I think the arguments about big government vs. small government, the arguments about, you know, the sexual revolution, military vs. nonmilitary solutions to problems. I think, in each and every instance, a lot of what we think about is shaped by the ‘60s, and partly, you know, the baby boomers is—are a big demographic. I write about the fact that, whether it’s the market for Viagra or how many cup holders are going to be in, in a car, a lot of it’s determined by what the baby boomers want. Our politics isn’t that different, and my suggestion is that—take the example of big government vs. small government. My instinct is is that the current generation is more interested in smart government. Let’s have enough government to get the job done. If, if we’re looking at problems, if the market solution works, let’s go with the market solution. If a solution requires government intervention, let’s do that. But let’s look at what are the practical outcomes. And I think that kind of politics is what the country’s hungry for right now.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. You may never persuade him but bystanders are always listening. nt

[TheKentuckian]

36. Ask him is he wanting to deal with the talk or the walk

Republicans talk about shrinking government but have expanded it each time they take office, not only government but the debt as well. True story...look it up.

Tell him the Republicans are playing him like a fiddle. He might like the tune but the song never turns out like it's pitched.

Republican small government is a big ole pig in a poke.

[27inCali]

37. If he's for limited gov

why is he supporting the Rs when they are the ones pushing through these laws like the Patriot Act to make it easier for the Gov to spy on people, go through their records, arrest people without warrants? that sounds like more government to me.

They use the same tired terrorist canard all day to justify it, but Bill Clinton didn't need to spy on Americans to keep Al Qaeda from attacking on US soil. He knew how to keep us safe without having to shred the Constitution. So I guess either the Rs are to incompetant to do it like he did, or it's all an excuse to errode civil rights and form a fascist government.

Deep down Bush and all the Rs are ashamed that 9/11 happened on their watch, that's why they are so obsessed and going so overboard in doing all these wacky unconstitutional things to prevent any other attacks, because they know if it happened again under their watch, no one would vote R for President for the next hundred years and their names would be mocked and reviled for all history.

Did you mention that Obama's tax cuts are bigger than McCain's?

and that the deregulations his R buddies pushed through are the reason why his stock portfolio is taking a shit right now?

[msallied]

38. Um, dude. The GOP is run by corporate-welfare loving FASCISTS

The creators of the Department of Homeland Security. The FISA people. The corporate BAILOUT guys.

My god... it doesn't take much research at all to figure out that the neo-con Bush Administration is anything BUT small government. :roll:

[billybob537]

39. don't waste your time!

Republicans will be irrelevent very soon. Tell him he's not worth your time.

[skipos]

41. So he would have voted for Hoover over FDR?

If so, you are wasting your time. If not, ask him why.

Regardless, Repubs love big government in our private lives, telling us who we can marry, telling us we aren't allowed to end our own lives (Terry Shiavo), killing the free market, etc

Read this:
http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/meatpacking-faux-pas-why-does-bush-hate-capitalism-and-health/
then this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-08-29-mad-cow_N.htm?csp=34

Is that "less governement?" Hell no.

[orwell]

42. Here you go...

http://thepoliticsofdebt.com/?p=177

The bottom line...the only three presidents to shrink government since WW2 were Eisenhower, Nixon, and Clinton. The most important element in the size of government is military spending, not "social programs". In fact, the oft maligned "welfare" is only 1% of the federal budget.

In fact, your friend has fallen for a very clever Republican marketing ploy.

[jillan]

43. Tell him to give up his social security benefits if he really feels that way.

[monktonman]

44. Government does a great job with the military. n/t

[Samantha]

46. Bush* ran on the Ownership Society

The less government interference into businesses, the better. Ergo, no supervision, no regulation. In fact, deregulate everything. Government - hands off!

This is one of the salient reasons we have had the mortgage crisis, and hence the meltdown in our financial institutions.

So how does your friend see that as working?

Sam

PS It is also one of the reasons we have experienced so much food poisoning here in the United States. The FDA has cut down on inspections, in fact it does not have enough inspectors to properly do the job (it has cut down on inspectors because it doesn't "need" them). Some of these countries shipping food here do not have inspectors at all. The head of the FDA recently was quoted as saying, "We cannot inspect our way to food safety." What a crock! We could do a lot better, and we have in the past. That also is the concept of deregulation talking.

[Kerrytravelers]

47. *sigh* Yes, less government and deregulation has worked so well for home owners and the market.

:eyes: What a tool.

[rucky]

48. I'd like to hear a "limited government" Republican success story.

because I can't think of a single one.

[Zynx]

49. I suppose he thinks the ever weaker involvement in the financial markets has been a good thing?

[chiefofclarinet]

50. Here's what to say...

"McCain is not conservative in that way. Neither was Bush. Both are "neo-conservative," but they aren't fiscally conservative or believe in smaller government. Bush made government bigger, and more corrupt. McCain agrees with Bush 90% of the time."

"Bob Barr is a REAL conservative in both senses. Vote for him."

I know a number of these real conservatives. I respect their opinion, though I don't agree with it. Neo-cons don't get my respect, though. I've been trying to get them to jump ship to Bob Barr, because there isn't a shot in hell to get them to Obama.

If he mentions that a vote for Barr is a throwing his vote away, tell him that the 2 parties will never change unless they are shaken up. If Barr gets a significant percentage, the GOP will notice and work to bring them back.

[cottonseed]

51. Govt shrinks during Dem administrations, the rest is bullshit!

[Warren Stupidity]

52. Idiots impervious to obvious facts.

Reagan, Bush I, Bush II : they all increased the size scope and intrusiveness of government and drowned us in a mountain of new debt while pretending to cut taxes. They are liars. Serial liars. Your 'republican' is signing up to get swindled again for the benefit of billionaires and globalists who are laughing at him and his kind everytime they vote to keep these crooks in power.