Letter from a Pissed-Off NRA Member

[REP]

or should I say, former NRA member:

On http://nraila.org/obama / you state:

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.

That's a lie, plain and simple. Read the amendment, you provided a link to it

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00217

Nowhere does it mention all rifle ammunition. It's about armor piercing ammunition. Period.

Why the lie? Who do you really support? Clearly it's not American gun owners or you wouldn't lie to us. Is it the Republican Party? Is the NRA now nothing more than another propaganda arm of the extreme right?

You have no honor. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I know I am now ashamed to have counted myself a member of the NRA for the past 30 years.

I've been a competitive shooter since I was a kid. I've got a rack of trophies won in rifle matches. I used to work in a gun store and ran the shooting range there. I am an American gun owner, and I support our right to keep and bear arms. I know what America stands for.

You do not.

Cancel my NRA membership.

Clearly, their tactics aren't working with everyone...

[Hepburn]

1. Kick...n/t

[Kolesar]

2. "Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods", which is a good policy...eom

[REP]

3. That quote isn't from the letter

The letter writer - who isn't me, but someone I know - doesn't have a problem with waiting periods or proficiency tests, as required for obtaining a driver's license.

[Kolesar]

18. correct

The quote was from the NRA ILA site.

[druidity33]

4. i hope

there are more folks out there like your friend. It's hard to get people to see through the screen their "trusted" member organization has put up. I wish there was a way to respond to the article as a non-member. Did anyone in particular author it?

[REP]

5. No one famous or anything

Just a 30+ year member with a rack full of trophies he won in shooting competitions.

[jakem]

6. well how is supposed to hunt armor-plated bunnies now?

[medicswife]

14. LMFAO omg, that is sooooo perfect. Thanks! I'm going to ask my

sister that question next time she rails on about Obama and the second amendment.

[liberalla]

7. That's great to see - I hope it gets read by a lot of other NRA members.

He ends his membership, and I was thinking of joining the NRA because they need more moderate members. There should be a movement within the NRA for sensible gun ownership and regulation.

[Thothmes]

8. Exactly what does the amendment call for

Unable to run down the verbage that Sen Kennedy used to expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition.

[wvbygod]

13. For what it's worth, see it here...

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:3:./temp/~c10943wF5c:e21007:

(c) Study and Report-

(1) STUDY- The Attorney General shall conduct a study to determine whether a uniform standard for the testing of projectiles against Body Armor is feasible.

(2) ISSUES TO BE STUDIED- The study conducted under paragraph (1) shall include--

(A) variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or center-fire rifle from which the projectile is fired; and

(B) the amount of powder used to propel the projectile.

(3) REPORT- Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act, the Attorney General shall submit a report containing the results of the study conducted under this subsection to--

(A) the chairman and ranking member of the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate; and

(B) the chairman and ranking member of the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives.

[Thothmes]

25. Thanks.

[iiibbb]

9. Gun control with legs

Enhancing background checks

Mandatory sentencing for crimes committed with guns

Tax credits for safe storage.

Measures to fight black-market and straw purchases.


Gun control without legs.

Another cosmetic AWB.

National licensing and registration (unless that licensing and registration actually means something... like concealed carry permits).

Gun bans in general.

[Prophet 451]

10. Safe storage isn't MANDATORY?!?!?!

Good Lord...

[EstimatedProphet]

15. Depends on your meaning of safe storage

Should safe storage mean keeping guns unloaded? Most people would certainly get behind that. Should safe storage mean that a gun safe, bolted to the wall and checked regularly by the ATF, be required for any gun owner? I think that wouldn't fly.

[Prophet 451]

16. OK, misunderstanding on my part

I was thinking unloaded, out of reach of children and preferably locked if possible.

The latter version is mandatory here (England).

[EstimatedProphet]

17. That's reasonable

I would expect most people would be in agreement with that. the problem we have in this country sometimes is that people campaign using specific words like that, but then don't define, or maybe deviously define, what the words are supposed to mean.

[benEzra]

20. I don't have a problem with "secured from child access"...

I would have a problem with mandatory-unloaded.

In our house, most guns are kept in a full-size safe for security, but it can be opened very quickly (~3 seconds). If we are home, one carbine in the safe will generally have a magazine containing ammunition inserted, but the chamber is not loaded and the rifle is on "safe." We may also keep a handgun in a smaller quick-access pistol lockbox; if it's mine, it's chamber-loaded, magazine inserted, on safe; if it's my wife's, it's chamber empty, magazine loaded.

Much more secure than if they were unloaded and trigger-locked in a simple gun cabinet, while at the same time being very quickly accessible.

[REP]

24. "Secure from child access" = lock on front door here

I don't have children. Locking my doors should be enough to keep stray ones out, right?

[Prophet 451]

11. The all-or-nothing thing annoys me too

Apparently, supporting the settings of any limits whatsoever on firearms ownership makes you "anti-gun".

I'm been a target shooter and sometime hunter all my adult life until my government decided to ban all handguns (I'm British). In most universes, that makes me pro-gun-rights but in the US, the fact that I support a few sensible precautions like a ban on a few weapons or types of ammo (mainly full-auto and APDS); support mandatory basic safety testing (the idea being that you have to show a basic safety certificate before buying a firearm or getting a hunting permit, repeating the test every few years, can be done very cheaply) and support efforts to keep firearms out of the hands of habitual criminals. In the US, these positions make me anti-gun.

I support and always have, the right of peaceful, law-abiding citizens to keep firearms but apparently, I become anti-gun the second I propose any kind of limit on that. Drives me nuts.

[benEzra]

19. Full-auto and APDS are already tightly controlled in the USA,

and even the NRA supports those restrictions. Background checks are IMHO also not a problem.

What I consider "anti-gun" are attempts to legislate rifle stock shape or ban adjustable stocks (aka the "assault weapon" fraud), magazine capacity restrictions, means tests, restriction of CHL to elites only, or other attempts to restrict the responsible ownership and use of currently legal non-automatic, civilian (NFA Title 1) rifles, pistols, and shotguns. From what you are saying, I don't think I'd put you in that category.

[Prophet 451]

21. "means tests"?

This may be a transatlantic communication difference ("common language", my fat Roma butt!) but here, we use "means tests" to refer to a kind of questionaire assessing someone's finances (usually for reasons of claiming welfare). I can only think of one reason you'd need one of those for a firearm and that's the hyper-paranoid assumption that you would be supporting yourself through crime (in which case, why bother getting the firearm legally?) so I presume you're using it in a different way.

As for the rest:
Legislating stock shape/adjustable stocks - just strikes me as silly and pointless. Most stocks are going to be roughly the same shape for practical reasons anyway.
Magazine capacity restrictions - again, you're eventually going to reach a practical limit on magazine capacity but legislating it is just pointless.
CHL - Depends how you define "elites". As far as I'm concerned, CHLs should be restricted to sensible, law-abiding people who've had some form of training to stop them panicking on the trigger (whether that's a local gun class, military or whatever). Stopping the thugs from having a CHL is a good thing but there's no need to restrict it to law enforcement or anything like that.

I'll always support mandatory safety testing as well. Can be done in a couple of hours for about twenty bucks a head and proven to save lives (about a thousand deaths annually, several thousand injuries), retest at periodic intervals. I became converted to that view after listening to my father. My father served as a range officer (dunno if you have them, person charged with ensuring safety on a firing range) and you would not believe some of the stories he can tell.

[benEzra]

29. I think we're on the same page...

By "means tests," I was speaking of de facto financial tests intended to keep guns out of the hands of those below the upper middle class. For example, New York City's byzantine licensing process, in which the process merely to own a gun is intentionally made so convoluted and expensive that those without the financial means to hire a lawyer, take several days off work, afford the myriad fees, etc. need not apply, as well as measures intended to price guns and/or ammunition out of the reach of the working class ("smart guns," serialized ammunition, exorbitant taxes/fees, etc. come to mind).

As far as CHL's, I am OK with requiring a training class, and requiring a clean record, as long as anyone who meets the requirements is granted a license regardless of how much money they carry, how famous they are, or how much they have donated or not donated to the sheriff's reelection campaign. To obtain a NC CHL, I had to pass a Federal and state background check, a mental health records check, have my prints run by the FBI, take a class on self-defense law using a state-approved curriculum, pass a written test on same administered by the sheriff's office, and demonstrate competence with a handgun on a shooting range, live fire. In some states, though, the sheriff could still have denied me a license if he/she felt I didn't have enough risk exposure to warrant a license, if I didn't carry large sums of cash (as if protecting cash was the most important reason to own/carry a weapon), or if I wasn't on his list of Most Favored Citizens. That I disagree with.

[Prophet 451]

32. Yeah, I'd disagree with that too

Here, prior to the outright ban on handguns, granting a license was purely down to the discretion of the local chief constable who tended to refuse just because they could. Drove us nuts.

The CHL testing you went through seems mostly reasonable to me: Ensuring you have a clean record, you're not likely to snap or panic on the trigger, that's all good

[wvbygod]

12. Intelligence, critical thought and knowledge is needed here

The armor piercing ammunition under review pertains to ammunition that is capable of
piercing the police armor worn on the body. All high powered rifle ammunition is
capable of penetrating body armor. The description was broad enough that it would
have technically made all high powered rifle ammo illegal.

You don't have to glean this from the NRA to know this. The bill was poorly worded
and they got called on it. The bill was indefensible.

Not an NRA member.

[REP]

22. Yes, the writer of the letter (and I) are aware of that

Actually, anyone with a rifle is probably aware of that. That does not excuse, however, the extreme scare tactics and outright LYING of the NRA to its members. It pissed off at least one person enough they cancelled a 30+ year association with them.

[Imagevision]

23. Poster, thanx for the heads up...

[Bread and Circus]

26. It looks like he's right, here's the text of the Amendment

SA 1615. Mr. KENNEDY submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by him to the bill S. 397, to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:

On page 13, after line 4, insert the following:

SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

(a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.--Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in clause (i), by striking ``or'' at the end;

(2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, under section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or

``(iv) a projectile for a center-fire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, under section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.''.

(b) DETERMINATION OF THE CAPABILITY OF PROJECTILES TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR.--Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

``(2) The standards promulgated under paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or center-fire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile.

``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''.

(As printed in the Congressional Record for the Senate on Jul 27, 2005.)

[benEzra]

30. This part would ban most rifle ammunition:

``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, under section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor;

Given that most rifle ammunition will penetrate body armor AND can be used in single-shot hunting handguns.

I would point out that Obama did NOT write or introduce that bill; I wonder if it was actually written by a pro-gun mole in order to make Kennedy et al look bad. But as written, it would have been sweeping, and it was right to be defeated.

[Bread and Circus]

33. You are missing the key point... again from the same amendment text

(b) DETERMINATION OF THE CAPABILITY OF PROJECTILES TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR.--Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

``(2) The standards promulgated under paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or center-fire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile.

``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''.

=========================

I've seen body armor stop some very powerful rounds that far exceed hunting loads. You don't need armor piercing ammunition to kill a deer, elk, bear, or moose.

The bill was a PRO GUN MERCHANT bill, the amendment was to protect cops.

God forbid we protect cops.

[benEzra]

34. RIFLE ammunition will shoot through a NIJ Level II or IIIA police vest like it's Saran Wrap.

A deer rifle will shoot through the front AND back of a Level IIIA police vest at moderate ranges and keep on going, or shoot through a half-inch plate of ordinary steel. Even small-caliber centerfire rifles (.223, 7.62x39mm) require at least NIJ level III hard armor to stop even softpoint hunting loads, and deer rifles above .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO (e.g., .270 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, .300 Magnum) require NIJ Level IV plates to reliably stop unless the range is such that the bullet has slowed to .308/7.62x51mm velocities and energies.

Here are the relevant NIJ classifications. Police vests are NIJ Level II or IIIA, military armor is usually III or IV:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/body-armor1.htm

NIJ Standard–0101.04 establishes six formal armor classification types, as well as a seventh special type.

Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP). This armor protects against .22 long rifle lead round nose (LR LRN) bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less, and against .380 ACP full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN), with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. Type I body armor is light. This is the minimum level of protection every officer should have, and the armor should be routinely worn at all times while on duty. Type I body armor was the armor issued during the NIJ demonstration project in the mid-1970s. Most agencies today, however, because of increasing threats, opt for a higher level of protection.

Type II-A (9mm; .40 S&W). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 332 m/s (1090 ft/s) or less, and .40 S&W caliber full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets, with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I threats. Type II-A body armor is well suited for full-time use by police departments, particularly those seeking protection for their officers from lower velocity 9mm and 40 S&W ammunition.

Type II (9mm; .357 Magnum). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 358 m/s (1175 ft/s) or less, and .357 Magnum jacketed soft point (JSP) bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I and Type IIA threats. Type II body armor is heavier and more bulky than either Types I or II-A. It is worn full time by officers seeking protection against higher velocity .357 Magnum and 9mm ammunition.

Type III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FJM RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less, and .44 Magnum jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets, with nominal masses of 15.6 g (240 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the Type I, II-A, and II threats. Type III-A body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available from concealable body armor and is generally suitable for routine wear in many situations. However, users located in hot, humid climates may need to evaluate the use of Type III-A armor carefully.

Type III (Rifles). This armor protects against 7.62mm full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets (U.S. military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.6 g (148 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 838 m/s (2750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I through III-A threats. Type III body armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection, such as barricade confrontations involving sporting rifles.

Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle). This armor protects against .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. military designation M2 AP), with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 869 m/s (2850 ft/s) or less. It also provides at least single-hit protection against the Type I through III threats. Type IV body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available. Because this armor is intended to resist “armor piercing” bullets, it often uses ceramic materials. Such materials are brittle in nature and may provide only single-shot protection, since the ceramic tends to break up when struck. As with Type III armor, Type IV armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection.

Out of curiousity, what calibers did you see armor stop that "far exceed hunting loads", and what NIJ level armor classification was being shot? Even .50 BMG doesn't "far exceed" a close-range shot from a big-game hunting rifle.

[Bread and Circus]

36. It's not for you to determine this, as outlined in the Amendment.

[benEzra]

37. From the legislation:

``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''.

The legislation specifically references police body armor, NOT military armor.

ANY deer rifle will penetrate a police vest, even with softpoint hunting loads. The Federal government already writes the standards.

Thing is, armor-piercing ammunition is ALREADY restricted at the Federal level by the armor-piercing bullet ban of 1986. So any new legislation must be aimed at banning any or all of the following:

(1) ban-legal non-AP handgun ammunition that will NOT penetrate current police body armor, like civilian 5.7x28mm (FN FiveSeven) or frangible training ammunition, but which the repubs at the Brady Campaign hope to ban anyway;

(2) non-AP ammunition in small rifle calibers that the Bradys consider "nonsporting" (primarily .223 Remington/5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm) as a back-door ban on the most popular rifles;

(3) copper, steel, or tungsten-core ammunition in larger target and hunting calibers in which the AP/non-AP distinction doesn't currently matter (e.g., .30-06, .300 Magnum, .338 Lapua, .416 Barrett, .50 BMG).

The 1986 ban already protects police from Kevlar-piercing handgun ammunition. That's not what this bill is about.

[Bread and Circus]

39. Like I said, you are not the determinant of what would qualify as exemplar body armor

Nor would you be doing the testing on that armor.

[benEzra]

40. "Exemplar" means "a representative sample." Which would be POLICE BODY ARMOR,

not an M2 Bradley or military Interceptor external hard armor. And any centerfire rifle will shoot through like Saran Wrap.

Which would give the Attorney General the power to outlaw the civilian sale of any rifle ammunition he/she deemed unsuitable for ordinary citizens to own, and there is nothing we could do about it.

Please explain to me how this couldn't be used to ban imported bimetal-jacketed 7.62x39mm FMJ, for example, or M193 or M855-style .223/5.56, if the Attorney General wanted to ban "assault weapon" ammunition, for example. The law would be so used.

[Bread and Circus]

42. Obviously you aren't reading the amendment correctly.

[benEzra]

43. It says what it says.

And that's the problem. It is a badly written law that would grant an AG power that he/she has no business having.

We already have a Kevlar-piercing-bullet ban. It's been on the books for 22 years now (since 1986), and was extended in 1994 to cover all rifle calibers that matter. I would strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with it, and with the technical and legal issues underlying this ill-advised proposal, before accusing others of failure to grasp the issue.

I would strongly suggest the following if you wish to discuss this issue in an informed way:

NIJ Standard-0101.06
Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

and

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

Legal > Armor Piercing Ammunition

Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322
The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful --

(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--

(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
§ 923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:

(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(2) If the applicant is an importer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year.

(e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition...

(k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B).

§ 929(a)

(1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years.

(b) Not withstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a violation of this section, nor place the person on probation, nor shall the terms of imprisonment run concurrently with any other terms of imprisonment, including that imposed for the crime in which the armor piercing ammunition was used or possessed. No person sentenced under this section shall be eligible for parole during the term of impressment imposed herein.

List of Armor Piercing Ammunition

bullet KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile)

bullet ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile)

bullet THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV)

bullet CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet)

bullet GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet)

bullet MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing)

bullet BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

bullet BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

bullet 7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

bullet 7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

bullet PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

bullet OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.)

bullet 7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

bullet 5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

bullet U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.

[Bread and Circus]

44. Like I said, you are missing the point of what it says and again you are

not the one who would make the determination of what exemplar body armor would be.

You can't just make stuff up and have people believe you.

[benEzra]

46. "Exemplar" means "representative" or "typical." Look up the damn word.

Why *wouldn't* police body armor be chosen to represent police body armor in the tests? "Exemplar" means "representative" or "typical." Look up the damn word.

Fact: ANY modern centerfire rifle will shoot through ANY under-uniform police body armor, whether NIJ Level II or IIIA.

Fact: ANY modern centerfire rifle caliber can be used in a single-shot pistol chambered for it.

Those two facts are why that legislation was badly written.

And you fail to recognize the fact that all AP ammunition that matters is ALREADY banned, and has been for many years.

[Bread and Circus]

47. You are not the determinant of it. It's in the amendent, just read it.

[benEzra]

48. Neither are you. The Attorney General would be.

But there is absolutely NOTHING in the amendment that would direct the Attorney General to test against anything other than ordinary police body armor. To do otherwise, in fact, would invite a court challenge.

I've read the amendment, and understand it. I've also read the 1986 ban and its legislative history, the 1994 addendums thereto, AND the official U.S. government body armor testing protocols, which apparently you have not.

And if the AG did test against police body armor (which, after all, would be the point of the law), then any centerfire rifle ammunition would penetrate, giving the AG to ban whatever calibers he/she didn't like. He/she could ban all "AK-47" ammunition by fiat, for example, or all .223 ammunition deemed "nonsporting."

WE ALREADY HAVE AN ARMOR-PIERCING BULLET BAN. I'm not sure what you think any new proposal would add to that, if you don't believe that it would lead to new restrictions on currently legal civilian ammunition.

[Bread and Circus]

50. That's been my whole point all along.

[REP]

27. Kick

[tsuki]

28. This, and the fact that Blackwater walked into NOLA after Katrina with

the list of registered gun owners' list, is why most hunters I know are not NRA members.

[benEzra]

35. Most gun owners at large are not NRA members.

There are between 65 and 80 million gun owners in the United States. Of those, there are around 15 million hunters; 16 to 30 million "assault weapon" owners, depending on how you define the term; and 40 to 45 million handgun owners (and of course those categories overlap to a great deal). Of that 65-80 million, only ~4 million belong to the NRA.

Based on the numbers, it's not the NRA candidates should worry about. It's the handgun and "assault weapon" owners.

[Thothmes]

38. In NOLA it wasnt Blackwater taking guns, it was the NOPD.

[benEzra]

41. NOPD, DEA, California Highway Patrol, and some clueless Oklahoma Guard units

who had no idea how illegal their actions were.

[Hope And Change]

31. Kick!

[cabbage08]

45. Kick n/t

[knixphan]

49. fist bump for him