Obama: All style, no substance?

[Jackeens]

Hello all. Had a chat yesterday with a New York friend who would generally be pretty liberal, although to the right on economic issues. By the sounds of it most of his friends and work colleagues (big corporation) have much the same views. He said very few of them would vote McCain, they just see him as yesterday's man, reckon he's been a disaster in the campaign so far (etc, etc), but they all seem to still feel that Obama is a triumph of style over substance - and for that reason they remain undecided.

Is this still a common problem/perception, do you think?

I tend to feel it's almost impossible to clearly demonstrate 'substance' until you're actually in power - until then it can be nothing but 'talk', that's the nature of the beast!

But if this is still a common perception does it make it critical that Obama focusses on details rather than generalities in the debates, particularly in the first one? I love the inspiring oratory, the talk of hope and change, but does he need to put more meat on those bones at this stage? Has he been doing that enough so far?

What do you think?

[WinkyDink]

1. I think you and your friends have deliberately paid no attention to Obama's speeches, is what.

It's McCain who says nothing but "I've fought tougher guys", and "I'd fire him", and "Obama's in the middle of things." You know, empty, moronic, and transparently false remarks. Coupled with "POW".

WHO is only "style", again? Oh, and add "Spain is where?" "SEC, FEC, eh, what's the difference?" "SPIC".

Nice try.

[maseman]

2. You apparently don't listen to his speeches

I listened to his entire speech last Tuesday morning on the economy. He put forth very detailed plans. ANYONE can go to his website and clearly see his bullets on how he will do what he is saying. Biden has also put forth specifics.

If you and your friends are lazy and require the media to spoon feed soundbites of what he'll do to you it won't help. They spoon feed "Lipstick on pigs" and "Rev. Wright" bullshit.

[cali]

3. I think this is a problem that's fading and that people who push it are

either ignorant, stupid as dog shit or have an agenda. Obama has been far more specific than McCan't. Perhaps you should inform yourself.

[Solomon]

4. It's called willfull ignorance, and they're proud of it.

[mucifer]

5. I think it's an excuse for racism.

The man has a very complicated well thought out economic plan. People can hear it in speeches, find it on the internet. These people know he was the head of the Harvard Law Review. They know he has a brain. You don't get that position for only having style. They are making crap up because they are scared of the black man.

[livedemocarticordie]

12. Agreed

I am so fed up up with this shit.

I graduated from the Kennedy School (KSG) at Harvard and also happen to be African-American (when I was a kid, I was just black). After 40 years on this planet, integrating schools, neighborhoods and workplaces, I can say without hesitation that for many, the most confusing, off-putting thing in America is a very smart black person. Never mind conservatives. You'd be amazed at how many well meaning alleged liberals can not wrap their heads around a black person who might actually be smarter than them, their friends and offspring. As long as they can play paternalistic to the downtrodden, that's comforting and comfortable. But to reealize that this black person is brighter, oh my frigging god Ethel???? !!!

To say Barack is an empty suit is like saying George Bush is a Rhodes Scholar and Einstein rolled into one. And for those who do not know, being chosen President of the Harvard Law Review is pretty much as good as it gets when it comes to defining mental substance and intellect....

Geeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzz..............

[Barack_America]

32. Also, yep.

Very interesting post.

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Chorophyll]

41. Bravo!

Bravo for the substance of your post post, and for the use of "oh my frigging god Ethel."

:hi:

[Barack_America]

31. Yep. nt

[cali]

6. golly gee, Jack, no response?

What a surprise.

[tekisui]

8. I get tired of posts like this.

Someone throws out concern or "how do I respond to this bullshit" and then has no intention of conversation. It gets old.

[cali]

9. It's a classic concern (you know what) post

clumsy and poorly done, of course, demonstrating the limits of the poster.

[AllieB]

16. He must've used spellcheck though.

;-)

[quantass]

7. Ok, wtf?!? Someone hasnt been listening THAT'S FOR SURE! McCain is the one with 0 substance.

Just listen to the two and you will clearly see the contrasting difference..McCain soley just deflects instead of providing specifics..like the recent pig thing...and bla blah blah..i feel i am waisting my time because all the proof is in the pudding...listen to Obama and be enlightened

[frogcycle]

10. tired, lame, worn-out excuse for "concern"

last night some twit on CNN interviewed first a mccain economic advisor who claimed that mccain had "a plan" that would fix the economy (like the one that will "win" the war?) but did not say what that plan was. Then she got the Obama guy on; instead of asking him what he had to say, she threw out some sound bites from the first guy to see if the Obama guy would squirm. He didn't take the bait. In fact, he was funny as hell. He said "Have you SEEN mccain's so-called "plan? It's on their website. It's about ten lines. It could have come out of a fortune cookie!"

Then he started to explain that Obama has had a solid economic plan (detailed on his web site) for a long time, developed with input from Paul Volker, (couple of other names), and she cut him off. She said "I hear a lot of fancy rhetoric but no specifics." Gee, I wonder where she got THAT talking point? So he said, "ok, here are specifics. Six points. Number One: (described number one). Number two: ..." At that point she cut him off and said "sorry, we're out of time."

[Demi_Babe]

11. Obama has more substance than any other candidate we've seen in a generation

[chimpymustgo]

20. That's insane. Listen, his resume is thin. But he's a million times better than the alternative.

People should not blame racism for some having doubts about Obama's readiness to be President. I'm black, and I wish he had shown more accomplishment throughout his career - going back to Harvard Law, where he won the Presidency as a compromise candidate, and only published one article - to his law career during which he never published anything, to his state legislative years, when his name was put on all the important legislation (he was fast-tracked by a mover and shaker there). To his Senate career, during which he started running for President almost as soon as he got there.

STILL - there's no choice. John McCain is a corrupt, lying, cheating, crazy NUT.

Obama/Biden 08.

[ecstatic]

13. Sounds like something David Gregory would ask

Thanks for your concern though.

[Hutzpa]

14. You and your friends need to pay more attention

you sounded eloquent enough put that into use, the least
you can do is educate your friends.

[cali]

15. oh c'mon. you're not falling for the OP's "concern", are you?

[Hutzpa]

18. no such thing

just wanted to give him a chance to respond, not that I expected
that, Oh well...


You ever tried cold pizza, I heard its good in the morning.

[DefenseLawyer]

17. As Judge Smails once said

Don't you people have homes?

[Life Long Dem]

19. I think you can stick your head up a cows butt to get a good view

but it won't put brake pad's on the kitchen table, and fool me once, you the fool!

[GoesTo11]

21. I knew from the headline that it was from a brand new poster

Anyway, my answer is that what makes his words so good is that they explain problems and their impacts, demonstrate understanding of what caused them, and show how to solve them. If that's lofty rhetoric, so be it. A doctor who diagnoses and cures you and explains the diagnosis, treatment and prognosis will use a lot of words - some of them lofty and Latin, but what matters is that the words reflect keen understanding about how to make your situation better. Finding the doctor who can say the right words is more critical than finding the pharmacist who can fill the prescription.

[Hutzpa]

23. You have no style or substance

that is just too much rhetoric for the poster to understand,

isn't that the Obama style and substance this poster seem to be complaining about???

:sarcasm:

[GoesTo11]

24. :Trying again.

Obama's smart.
He's not dumb.
He gives real answers.
Not just pretty words.

[Jackeens]

46. Okay, rejoice - no more new threads from me!

I made a serious mistake, I thought I might get some thoughtful responses to my account of that conversation, instead it's just been invective and abuse - have to say, I'm pretty stunned. I'm just so grateful that Obama has more class and intelligence than some of his supporters here, I'm guessing he would be embarrassed by some of you.

[Ikonoklast]

22. Concern Noted.

Have a nice stay.

[kid a]

25. yeah - for someone extremely ignorant and pathetically lazy, i can see how someone might miss it

[Jackeens]

26. Wow, what's with the nastiness?

I sure wasn't expecting such aggressive replies!

Let's get this right: I have never, in all my life, been so inspired and moved by a single political leader, I think Barack Obama is magnificent. I cannot even contemplate him not winning this election because, in my humble opinion, it would be catastrophic for America and the world if this leader was lost.

I quoted the views of a friend (and his friends/colleagues), they weren't my views. I am simply concerned, as a result of that conversation, that there are some undecideds out there who feel they still need more 'detail' from Obama before they can commit to voting for him. Personally, I have all the detail I need, but my vote isn't at stake, theirs is. And they will decide the election.

I have absolutely no doubt that there is, from some of these people, a racist element to the 'all style, no substance' charge, it's just their 'excuse' for not voting for a black man, no matter how great he is. They don't concern me, they're scum who would vote for the devil before a black man, so they can go to hell. I won't waste my emotions or energy on them.

But my friend, for one, is not a racist, I know that for certain.

So, we can shower my friend with abuse for expressing reservations - and me for reporting them! - or we can listen to the undecideds and make an effort to persuade them that Obama has all the substance they need, plus more.

Replies like "Golly gee Jack, no response" are amazing, I thought we were all in this together?

[Armstead]

27. You've encountered troll sensitivity -- justly or not

Just so you understand, over the years there have been numerous right wingnuts who join DU andf pretend to be on our side, but post "concern" posts like "I just discovered that Obama really is a Muslim. How do we deal with that?"

So, sometimes a new poster who posts something that seems like a "concern troll" gets jumped on, regardless of whether they are sincere or not.

Assuming you are sincere, I'd echo some of the comments above and suggest you tell your shallow friend and his shallow friends that they ought to look into what Obama has actually said about many subjects, and also look more closely at his life story.

There's plenty of substance there. They are just too damn lazy to look for it.

[Labors of Hercules]

29. And the media's just too damn ratings crazy to report it.

The "stuffed suit" is a much easier thing to report, because all they have to do is do nothing. (Think about it).

[Jackeens]

42. Okay, I understand.

Many thanks for your reply, I understand the tone of the responses now! I'm so far from being a troll I can barely spell the word - my head, heart and soul are with Obama. My mistake was to put 'all style, no substance' in the title, it made it sound like I was saying it - and I'm most definitely not. And you're right about the laziness of people not bothering to educate themselves about Obama - I'll just be fascinated to see what tone he takes in the debates, whether he goes with a 'details, details, details' approach to counter any concerns about that charge. That's why I think that ad he did on the economy was so brilliantly effective - just him, the camera, and facts. Thanks again.

[Berry Cool]

33. Whew. I didn't think you were a concern troll either.

I'm wondering if something else isn't coming into play here. Namely, the intelligent, sophisticated person's general anxiety about appearing too easily taken in, too ready to believe, too gullible to a political leader who both looks good and sounds good.

Some people out there who like what they see, hear and read when it comes to Obama have to be asking themselves (because I know I have at times): "Is he too good to be true?" or "Does he really mean to implement everything he says, or is he just another politician? Am I falling hook, line and sinker for someone who's going to turn out not to be as advertised?"

They are afraid of being identified with all those believers chanting "Yes we can!" because it might make them look like part of a naive crowd, a faith-based movement, if you will. Because no matter who you vote for in this election, you have to vote based on faith that the guy you pick is the right one and can do the job. You can't know in advance. All you have is your hunch, which hopefully will be based on plenty of research, but at the same time, these are two politicians pitching themselves, using the techniques of advertising to win you over. You have to pick one or the other, and while these people may hate McCain with the heat of a thousand white-hot suns, if they pick Obama and he is elected, they could conceivably end up being "wrong" about him, and that scares them.

Choosing someone to vote for is a bit like getting married. You have to pick the person you think is the right one, but it comes with no guarantees. And in the meantime, they hear all those obviously one-sided Republicans saying "Obama is just an empty suit," and when they hear that crap, it's easy for them to forget all the stuff they heard and read about his specific policy points because it arouses their fear and anxiety that someone, somewhere, might think they voted for a guy on the basis that he sounded and looked good! They CAN'T be caught dead doing that! Only STUPID SHEEPLE do that!

I wouldn't be the least surprised if that isn't the origin of some of the anxiety intelligent and sophisticated people feel about Obama. They don't want anyone to think they are voting for him for superficial reasons or that they expect him to be their "savior"...or at least they don't want to appear that way. But deep down inside, when they get to the polls, they won't be able to bring themselves to vote for anyone else!

[Barack_America]

37. With all due respect,

You can't know for certain that your friend is not a racist.

The best you can do is point out specifics of Obama's plans to your friend and ask him what specifics he's heard from McCain. Obama has been FAR more detailed regarding his plans on the campaign trail. And if your friend is still critical of Obama's "substance" or "experience", I'm sorry to say it, but there's likely a tinge of racism there.

[Jackeens]

44. My friend is married to an African American...

...that might not prove he's not racist, but I think it hints that he's not.

[cali]

48. How convenient. I ain't buying. And you mentioned more than one friend.

Don't tell me, they're all married to AA women. Please.

[GOTV]

28. What does it mean to be "to the right on economic issues"?

Does it mean that he's for buying the big screen TV today but leaving the bill to his children? Isn't that right wing economic policy?

[PeaceNikki]

38. Yeah, you know... a "fiscal conservative" as opposed to a "tax & spend liberal"

[iiibbb]

30. Republicans(McCain). All Fail.

[GreenEyedLefty]

34. Okay, that meme is so May 2008

Time for a new one... You and your friends are being deliberately obtuse.

[me b zola]

35. I think that it's the week-end and we are accustomed to these type of posts

It takes either an idiot or the willfully ignorant to suggest that Obama is not a man of substance. Then when you have empty vessels like McCain and the milky-minutes mom running against him, well I just feel the need to point and laugh at you.

[Heather MC]

36. EMAIL him this Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPfaVV6mrI0

[gulliver]

39. Please get me a list of people who think that.

There is a bridge in Alaska we can sell them.

-- to steal a line from Obama, of course

There's never going to be an end to stupidity, and some people are doomed to foolishness their whole lives. It is not possible for anyone with a brain to listen to Obama and McCain side-by-side and conclude that Obama is the one without substance. McCain lacks both style and substance...that's the answer in the back of the book.

[NEDem]

40. Thank you for your concern

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. Your friends are lazy fucks who need to do some research on their own

At this point, when I hear the "no substance" line it reveals more about the person saying it than it does about Obama.

[rucky]

45. Translation: "I haven't paid attention anything beyond soundbites"

[Peacetrain]

47. "Well my friend" as I plagerize McCain here

;).. I see you have asked a fairly loaded question, and the truth is, Obama has laid out many details. In fact when he started running in Iowa, he was criticized for being to professorial and not getting to the sound bites

You see that that pre criticism coming back into the media talking about the debates. He better get to the sound bites and not sound too professorial.. or angry..

But the fact is, John McCain (getting back to plagiarizing and stealing) is copying many of Obama stances.. because he has nothing to stand. John is an empty suit, as is his running mate.

[LiberadorHugo]

49. That's funny...

It's like saying this guy has no substance because he's a hippy a tad to the left of Trotsky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leung_Kwok_Hung

In spite of appearances, he's usually the smartest guy in the room (especially in the reactionary cesspool of rigged elections that is Hong Kong) and the only one who gives a damn about workers and about civil liberties. But like Einstein and Trotsky, it would not surprise if he has a touch of Asperger's or something.