The VP Debate

[H2O Man]

The McCain and Obama campaigns have reached an agreement that will result in a highly structured debate format for Sarah Palin and Joseph Biden. Some DUers have expressed concern about this, and question why the Obama camp would agree to this type of debate. In my opinion, it will actually favor Senator Biden, and I believe that the democrats have actually set a trap for Palin. The reasons for this will not be found in the corporate media’s reporting.

Having a woman participating on this level of the national stage is, of course, relatively new. Let’s take a look at a few examples which may shed some light on what we have seen before, and how it relates to the current situation. In 1984, Walter Mondale had two women on his "short list" of five possible VPs; they were Rep. Geraldine Ferraro and San Francisco Mayor Diane Feinstein. He ended up selecting Ferraro.

When she debated Vice President George Bush on October 11, polls indicated that most women felt she did better, while most men thought Bush did.. Two things stood out: first, in one of her responses, Ferraro stated, "Let me just say first of all, that I almost resent, Vice President Bush, your patronizing attitude that you have to teach me about foreign policy"; and second, a comment by Bush after the debate, when he said he had "kicked a little ass." At that time, having a women on the ticket was "new" enough that Bush was able to get a free pass on his sexist approach. I would have preferred that Mondale selected Diane Feinstein, because I think her personality would have been better suited for confronting Bush’s "good old boy" attitude – and as we will see, "personality" plays a significant role here.

The second example of a woman debating a man on the national stage came in 2000, when First Lady Hillary Clinton was running for the US Senate in New York State. In her nationally televised debate with republican Rick Lazio, who had replaced Rudy Giuliani as her victim. Viewers were treated to one of the most pathetic attempts to substitute a gimmick for a reasoned stance, when Little Ricky nervously tried to invade Hillary Clinton’s space on stage. The comic combination of the appearance of sexism and the "wimp factor" insured that the poor lad became a national joke.

The last example for our consideration came in this year’s democratic primary, in a debate in which it appeared that John Edwards and Barack Obama were ganging up on Hillary Clinton. In this context, it was the belief that two men were coordinating an effort to put a female candidate in the margin that offended some women, who felt it was unfair.

Thus, in general, when Joseph Biden debates Sarah Palin, he needs to avoid appearing to be a sexist bully, a wimp, and/or unfair. I’m confident that these will not be factors, although I suspect that some in the media will claim otherwise.

The factor that I consider to be most important has to do with Sarah Palin’s personality make-up. Everything that I have seen has reinforced my initial impression of her having a borderline personality disorder, with histrionic features. A couple people on DU have said that borderlines are "dangerous," and thus many in the mental health profession refuse to treat them. This indicates a lack of familiarity with the situation.

Personality disorders, while they may well have biological roots, are best understood as behavioral traits. They are the behaviors that individuals growing up in certain families learn to use in order to get their needs met. These same behaviors, when displayed in the larger society, are often unattractive attempts to get those needs met. The "dangers," for example, that a person with a borderline personality disorder poses is not that they will try to assault or kill the therapist, as much as they will try to maim the treatment goals. A person like Sarah does not seek to change her own behavior, as much as to change others’ behaviors, in order to get her needs met.

Add the theatrical flair of histrionic features, and all types of attention-seeking acting out comes into play. From an objective view point, these rather obnoxious behaviors can include some obviously self-destructive plays. Their resistance to treatment is generally greatest when they feel the uncomfortable pressures that result from an attempt at structure.

Now, let’s look at the structure of the vice presidential debate. Does it really give Sarah Palin an advantage? Does it hurt Joseph Biden’s ability to contrast his strengths with her weaknesses? I think not. In fact, I believe that it favors Joe Biden.

Despite the uncanny insight that being able to see Russia from her window has blessed her with in regards to foreign policy, Sarah came across as rather shallow in her interview with Charlie Gibson. And even a month’s worth of republican therapy will not be enough to help her deal with the pressures of debating Joe Biden on the national stage. The truth is that she is less qualified than Rick Lazio to be vice president. She makes Dan Quayle, who ex-President Gerald Ford accurately described as a "chucklehead," appear as an Elder Statesman.

Senator Biden is at his best in a structured environment. His grasp of domestic and international policy will be displayed perfectly during the vice presidential debate. This will make Sarah Palin very uncomfortable. In order to prove to the viewing audience that she is special, and that everyone needs to focus their efforts on meeting her unique needs, she will act out. We can count on that. It is impossible to imagine her letting the opportunity to act out on the big stage pass by.

And when Sarah puts her special needs on full display, the American public will need no further convincing that she is uniquely unqualified for office.

[Boz]

1. The last few sentences are already starting to come to fruition, In Her mayoral and Govenorship she

Moved into a pattern of "phoning in" her work, this week she showing many of the signs that she is now bored and doesnt want to work as hard for this, and this is just a week or two into the shiny stage and already shes canceling appearances and losing interest while McCain is speaking.

Shes starting to phone it in, and the whining stage is soon to follow. That acting up you talk about, is right on time and right on cue, PAY ATTENTION TO ME IM THE GIRL, IM THE NEW THING> is going to play right into her straying off on her OWN points after a few repeats of lines.

It is standard dysfunctional second daughter syndrome taken to extremes with a narcissist beauty queen mentality.

Textbook case for failure and classic acting out attention syndrome stage setting.

All Obama/Biden had to do is get her to show up, the rest is a train wreck, nascar crash or Evil Knevil and lots of people will want to watch just to see it happen.

[H2O Man]

6. It amazes me

that anyone could believe that something as difficult as foreign policy can be mastered in a matter of weeks. The most intelligent people in our nation's foreign policy arena in, say, the past century have all studied the topic for decades; more, they begin their careers in foreign policy at a relatively low level, and work their way up, patiently, over a life-time. Add to that the fact that most experts today believe the world is a far more complex place than it was 40 or 50 years ago. And now the republican party wants the American people to believe that Sarah Palin is such a "special" person, that she can jumpr right in and serve our nation's needs as an instant expert.

Unreal.

[keepCAblue]

90. In 2000, Bush had zero foreign policy experience...

And now the republican party wants the American people to believe that Sarah Palin is such a "special" person, that she can jumpr right in and serve our nation's needs as an instant expert.

The rethuglicans accomplished exactly that in 2000 and the rest, they say, is history. Do not underestimate these people. They did it once and they'll do it again by selling personality and packaging over substance and experience. And besides all that, they're hoping to steal the election again anyway, regardless of what the American people buy or don't buy, just as they did in 2000 and 2004.

[Pete2069]

94. In 2008 Bush has 0 foreign policy experience...

Far as that goes , Bush still ranks zero on any policy.   That
is why they have a criminal VP>..

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. That's interesting:

>>>>Everything that I have seen has reinforced my initial impression of her having a borderline personality disorder, with histrionic features. >>>>

Can you give some examples?

What distingishes her as a "borderline personality", exactly?

[H2O Man]

8. Good question.

Let me start by explaining that in my years of employment at a mental health clinic, my role included sometimes giving a preliminary diagnosis. Then, in our staff meetings, we would discuss individual cases, and decide if the preliminary diagnosis was accurate, or if it needed to be changed. Then, once agreed upon, one of the doctors would sign the treatment plan, and the diagnosis becomes "official."

Among my closest friends are a number of people from the clinic that I worked with before retiring. And, of these, I’ve spoken with four about Sarah Palin: two therapists (one being my best friend and wife), one psychologist, and one psychiatrist. So, in an informal sort of way, I suppose we have "staffed" the republican vice presidential candidate.

By no coincidence, each of us has the same opinion of her. And that is why I keep saying the same basic thing on a variety of DU threads discussing Sarah Palin: borderline personality disorder, with histrionic features.

Besides running a out-treatment agency, my wife also teaches at the local state university from time to time. She enjoys teaching classes in both psychology and sociology. And, because I think your question was an important one, not only in the individual sense, but for the DU community, I just asked her how she would respond to it, if she were asked something similar in a classroom. Her answer is not a highly technical one, geared toward a room full of Ph.D’s, or an insurance company, but rather, to a group of intelligent lay people.

She said that the first thing that people might notice, when they look at and listen to Sarah Palin, is that they find her to be "fake." She attempts to portray herself as being other than she really is, and one gets an inner signal that there is a big gap between the presentation, and the real Sarah.

The second thing is that there is a pattern of "black and white" thinking. Sarah does not have an ability to view people as a mixture of good and bad qualities, which we surely all are. Instead, she puts people into one of two groups: those who are good, and those who are bad.

There is a tendency to idealize people that she has just met. In a mental health clinic setting, for example, by the end of one’s second meeting with a borderline person, they are often convinced that you are a "good" person, who agrees with their world view, and is going to come in mighty handy in helping them get their needs met.

We should keep in mind that in the over-all picture, a person with John McCain’s views on abortion (though he has passed the point of having true beliefs) would be among the "bad" people in Sarah’s world. But, upon their second encounter, he asked her to be his vice presidential candidate. Hence, in Sarah’s view, he is not merely "good," he is a hero.

Frequently, those who the borderline builds up in their mind are unable (or unwilling) to provide the level of gratification that the person believes must be met, and they instantly fall from grace. The noble therapist becomes a scoundrel. The good psychiatrist just isn’t smart enough to understand those special needs. I think it is interesting to speculate on how she will react when the "Palin-McCain" ticket is defeated in November.

There was, I thought, more than a hint of that in Sarah’s approach to the media. She wanted to portray herself as being super mom, the head of the all-American family. When the media initially reported just that, Sarah was a happy camper. The minute that the media began to look below the surface, and report that the Palin family actually had many of the non-super, very human imperfections common in our culture, the media became the enemy, and it became a mortal sin for reporters to ask questions or do research on her family members. This has spilled over into the investigation of Trooper-gate, as well.

[MadMaddie]

13. Thank you for the analysis

I find it all very interesting and it appears to be spot on.

I don't know if many of you noticed during the last week that ole Sara referred to the Repbulican ticket as the "Palin/McCain" campaign. She spoke her true thoughts...it wasn't a slip up because she did it more than once....

She only has around 5 or 6 standard answers to all questions as witnessed in the Charlie Gibson interview. That's her comfort zone and once she is outside the box she is in trouble.

The truth is I am not worried about Sarah I am worried about the people who will be asking the questions, they have shown in the past they have no issue with slanting the debates.

[kurt_cagle]

41. Knowing someone with BPD

Your analysis seems very much spot on (and one that I have thought as well). BPs are hard to treat, because they seldom recognize that they actually have a problem - instead, they become very evasive when issues about mental health come up, and often resort to rewriting their own history in order to avoid even potentially facing the conclusion that they may have a mental health problem. At least the BP that I have known also has a tendency to periodically explode when anxious, entering into paranoid delusions and typically blaming family members and friends for abusing them or harboring secret desires to inflict harm on them.

There's often a strong sense of entitlement that is usually far out of proportion to what they have done to merit that entitlement - and they often tend to take on roles that put them into positions of authority or power even if they are in no way qualified for those positions, simply because in their minds they confuse the responsibility with the role and see it only as yet another proof that they are better than other people. The fact that, once in as both mayor and governor, she did remarkably little also rings bells, as does the prominence of her husband as the power behind the throne. My suspicion is that Todd, in fact, is probably one of those people who has become so used to dealing with the problems associated with her wife being BP that rather than having any ulterior motive he simply does it to keep from having to expose the difficulties his wife has.

From what I've experience both with this person and have learned from dealing with the issues associated with them, BPs are also quite adept at appearing to be "solid" when first encountering strangers, though I've found that after a short period of time people react as if the BP is just a little "off" - that there's something that's a little out of kilter with their reactions. They can be very charming, however.

I find Palin's history of backstabbing people who have supported her in the past intriguing, because that's also a pretty solid indication that there's BP - as you mention, the hero they've come to worship becomes a villain who's failed them, and they feel fully justified in biting the hand that feeds them because it makes her look like the hero. People who reach high positions of authority over many years understand that you pay your dues, and that, while there isn't overt cronyism going on, you help and support those people that helped and supported you. People with BP generally have trouble thinking in longer terms than maybe a few months, and often don't understand how badly they are burning bridges ... this also of course makes her uniquely unqualified for a position even as VP, as that position has effectively evolved into the head of the operations arm of the executive branch, and as such needs to be held by someone who is capable of both tactical and strategic thinking at a deep level.

One final note (I'm spending too much time on DU as it is ... sigh) BPD seldom occurs in isolation. The BP that I know has periodically succumbed to bouts of depression and even suicidal behavior, though typically as a ploy for attention rather than as an outright expression of depression. Placing someone with that potential in charge of the nuclear capabilities of the United States is terrifying. What makes it worse is that there are few effective treatments for BP -- you can treat the depression, but the behaviors involved are as much learned as they are biochemical, and the strong resistance to seeking medical treatment by BPs means that even when regimens of treatment are started, the likelihood that the BP will go off their meds is very high.

I can't tell whether Palin is BP - all that I've seen has been the glimpses into her behavior afforded by the media and the web, and of course, those can be deceptive. However, there's a lot of very disturbing circumstantial evidence to imply that she might be, and there is no way that anyone with BP should ever be allowed that close to a position as powerful as POTUS.

I'd be interested in additional commentary on this. Again, while I know one, I don't know home much of that person's behavior is typical of BPs in general.

[nxylas]

81. But isn't it considered unethical to diagnose someone you've never met?

That was always the objection to these tabloid articles in which an "eminent psychiatrist" writes an article declaring a politician that the editor dislikes to be insane.

[H2O Man]

84. I'm not

diagnosing her. I'm merely identifying some of her personality traits that I find significant.

[Tab]

85. I'll have to watch her more closely but you may be right

I am well familiar with at least one class of BPDs, having been married to a full-flaming BPD for nearly 9 years. There are some variations - the common stereotype is someone who does "cutting", like in "Girl, Interrupted", but as I watched that, the character didn't seem to be a full-flaming BPD to me.

I can only speak to the one I was involved in, but you mentioned a few things that sounded very familiar. I'll list a few (I'm not fully awake yet) that come to mind:

- Total lack of self-esteem. Note: This can result in very overt, very outgoing behavior, so it may not be immediately obvious.
- Fear of abandonment
- Total black and white thinking. No greys, unless it suits their purpose.
- Revisionist history - changes their acknowledged history of what they (or you) said or did, as long as it doesn't portray them as the problem (this all feeds into the zero self-esteem problem).
- "Good list" and "Bad list" - Good list, you can do no harm. Moved to the bad list, you are incompetent and worthy of demeaning, and the root of many troubles.
- Others (people or animals) are objects - they cannot sympathize. It could be how they treat their children, or it could be hunting moose from a copter.
- Anger and resistance at probing too deep to dislodge the "appearance"
- In cases of accusation of something that might portray her (80% diagnosed are female) in any critical way, the nearest (likely innocent) target can be the cause - anyone, anything, as long it's not her.

There's lots more. You are correct many psychologists/psychiatrists don't want to treat them. To begin with, many won't even accept that they have BPD, because to do so means that they have yet ANOTHER thing wrong with them, and therefore the psychologist or doctor or whoever diagnosed them must be incompetent and immediately moves to the bad list.

One psychologist who I worked with (and spent time with both of us) said she'd rather treat 10 schizophrenics than one BPD.

[Time for change]

91. Very interesting

As I was reading the part where you noted that people might find her to be fake, I first thought to myself, yes, that is quite true. But then immediately it came to mind that the same thing could be said about George W. Bush, even moreso IMO. It seems to me that the types of people who vote for people like that (Palin and Bush), and there are obviously tens of millions of them in our country, are extremely unskilled at spotting fakes. So, I was wondering what your thoughts are on how much good her fakiness will do for us when there are so many people in our country who are so poor at spotting a fake?

[babylonsister]

3. I think you're right. The more structured debate will allow

Biden to stay on message and share his experience with us; that, compared to hers, will be gold.

[H2O Man]

11. Right.

This is actually the right format for Joe Biden. There is no right format for Sarah Palin in a vice presidential debate, because she is uniquely unqualified for that office.

A person with her personality make-up experiences difficulty in a structured environment. This will be evident, when Biden keeps the focus on policy issues. Palin will become frustrated, and when Biden disagrees with her, we will see the toxins of her personality oozing to the surface. Her type are unable to appreciate that people can have differences of opinion, which they tend to interpret as meaning "you don't like me." Hence, they attempt to turn disagreements into a personal spat, and get the other person to react to their personality, rather than focusing on rational discourse.

By the end of the debate, all rational people will know that one candidate is qualified for office, and the other is absolutely unqualified.

[RagAss]

50. How do you think she might react if Joe directs his answers to

McCain as the debate adversary "in absentia" as opposed to her directly? That is to say, addressing John McCain, his old senate colleague via the moderator and the cameras.

[DangerousRhythm]

55. Exactly what I was thinking.

This is a definite plus. Our guys aren't morons and never would have agreed to something that'd put them in detriment. I trust 'em. :D

[Coexist]

4. Biden will shine in this debate format, and one thing I think that will make a real difference

is that Gwen Ifill will be the moderator, thus neutralizing her hyper-female 'look at me I'm pretty and I'll flirt with you' strategy.

[H2O Man]

12. Right.

Joseph Biden has the skills necessary to deal with the most difficult people and situations in today's troubled world. Sarah Palin is not in his league.

[PCIntern]

5. I think your essay is right on the money...

I would, however suggest a few points:

1. I believe that she's a sociopath...she does not exhibit normal anxiety and is a liar par excellence even when faced with the fact that she's been apprehended in the midst of her behavior, she continues. We can see that she will say anything, do anything, to achieve her objectives and has neither embarrassment nor fear, these people land on their feet no matter what befalls them.

2. The posts which discussed the 'danger' of treating these people did not refer, (at least my posts did not refer), necessarily to actual physical danger, although, as I will point out, that has happened on many occasions. The notion that the patient is extraordinarily resistant to treatment and changes or attempts to change the parameters of the therapy and/or therapist is the 'danger' and what may befall him or her from a professional or personal repercussions, including lawsuits and personal harassment is most important to take into account. Here at a major university, there was a well-publicized case of a borderline patient knifing the psychiatrist in student health for reasons which were, to say the least, 'peculiar'. That of course is the exception, but having been associated with the mental health community for decades, I would say that although this is the extreme case, many many professionals are disrupted daily by their borderline patients...I happen to treat not only the patient, but her psychiatrist, who confided to me that he 'fired her' for grossly inappropriate behavior including threats and angers which she described in excruciating detail. Since borderline people occasionally make suicidal gestures, these occasionally 'go wrong' and the person is successful and the family sues the therapist or worse, calls the State Board of Licensure, and gets them in on the case.

3. That being said, this woman has been able to maintain a marriage for a very long time, and, unless there are extremely unusual circumstances of which we know nothing, (and this is quite possible), this would be somewhat unusual, but not unheard of for someone who exhibits her degree of pathology. I think she is narcissistic (the names of her children alone should raise an eyebrow: Track Enfield!? Naming your child after Eddie Van Halen??!!!!) and many of the traits which you so appropriately point out could be related to that diagnosis.

This is fun, however!!! Keep 'em coming!

[H2O Man]

14. Exactly.

Words have real meanings. I am reminded of the story of when the philosopher Confucius was asked what he would do, if he had political power, and he said he would insist that people use words properly. "Narcissistic" is an accurate description of a person who, having absolutely no background in foreign affairs, believes s/he is qualified to be vice president (and perhaps president), because s/he is oh so special.

It is stunning that in today's world, the republican party would select her to run on the ticket with McCain. While we might disagree with almost every position that they might take, there are other republican women who at least are experienced enough that one could argue they are qualified.

We are not living in Mayberry, RFD. It's as if the republicans are appointing Barney Fife as the head of Homeland Security. In my opinion, it is so irresponsible as to be criminal. But I suppose that is what we should expect from the republican party.

[RagAss]

51. They asked....but I turned them down...

Andy talked me into staying...;-)

[skyounkin]

64. Well, her children are not named for their own identity

they are named for HER and her accomplishments, and things she liked from her youth.....

I think her husband is just as looney- a freak show control type BUT no one calls him on it because sara is such a "strong independant woman" :puke: that she can't be controlled by no man.

[dixiegrrrrl]

88. Here are the clinical symptoms of B.Per. DO

A person with this disorder will also often exhibit impulsive behaviors and have a majority of the following symptoms:

* Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
* A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
* Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
* Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
* Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
* Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
* Chronic feelings of emptiness
* Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
* Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

I am a retired Mental Health therapist. I do not think these fit the woman as far as we know.
I don't see the "dramatic" features which are so key to this diagnosis, given what we know so far.

However, the symptoms of Narcissistic Per. D.O. seem to fit.

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

My bell went off when the McCain guy said she should be treated with "deference", and further news detailed more of the above traits.
Don't even get me started on the sociopathic traits of our current WH resident.

Let me also add that there are a couple of interesting books about the fact that many of our Presidents were/are undiagnosed A.C.O.A. ( Adult children of Alcoholics ) which does have a common pattern of behaviors.

[PCIntern]

7. What I don't understand...

is why this most provocative and well-informed post hasn't garnered more responses...

[H2O Man]

15. My guess would be

that it is because in the past few months, 97% of my OPs sink like stones, and the other 3% soon become water-logged, and head to the bottom.

[PCIntern]

24. My posts are not as profound as yours...

but I've found that the more infantile my posts, the better they do! If I post an essay, as it were, I add it to my journal for inclusion in my 'book' someday, and then watch it disappear from page 1...

But that's probably b/c they're not too good...-sigh-

[marlakay]

47. As one of the middle aged people on the blog

and liking to read things like this thank you. I ignore all the silly posts and read dailykos more often these days than DU which I joined 4 yrs ago.

I was one of the many low info voters until after 2000, Bush woke me up and caused me to start paying attention and learning.

[corkhead]

57. from my vantage point, I am fascinated by the discussion, but it is "beyond my pay grade"

I don't have any experience in the mental health arena, so I don't feel I have anything substantive to add to this discussion, but this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read today. This otherwise silent observer greatly appreciates this conversation, albeit as a fly on the wall.:toast:

[WheelWalker]

20. It's a thought provoking thread on a subject about which I have only

limited knowledge. My dad always said to me, he said, "Son...if you're talking, you're not listening." I appreciate the opportunity to contemplate the implications of others' knowledge. Thank you.

[jjanpundt]

9. What I'm wondering is how she will handle the stress of

preparation and then finally meeting her opponent. The contrast will be immense - Biden seems comfortable no matter the situation, and she seems to "freeze up" at times. She was so tense and unsure of herself with Gibson, and he's not that tough a questioner, I almost (not really) felt sorry for her. She wasn't a whole lot better with Hannity. I dislike her so intensely part of me hopes she's completely trampled, and another part just hopes she embarasses herself. If she is trampled, then I'll bet she (and McCain) will do the "they were so mean/cruel/sexist,etc.

I'm also wondering is Todd Palin going to be on stage with her?

[H2O Man]

17. I find her

to be toxic. And that is the nicest thing that I can say about her.

Over the years, I've watched a lot of area high school athletes, who really stand out at that level. Yet it is common for them to experience difficulty in moving up to the college level. Her personality aside, I think that Palin will experience something similar to this. Being mayor and the governor for a short period of time does not give her the solid foundation needed to step up to the national level.

[jjanpundt]

19. You may be right about not being able to take it to the next

level. My boss's son was on hs high school debate team for 3 years and senior year was captain. He said the stress of the tournaments was enormous. He was eligible for several college debate scholarships but did not want to take it to the next level. He's now on his way to being a litigation attorney and says the debate experience will be invaluable, but he does not regret not debating at the college level.

I'm hoping that Palin simply gushes out her snappy replies to buzz words and falls flat on her face. Maybe then the "undecided" voters will realize that she was just a bright shiny object all along.

[grantcart]

10. Very thoughtful

Another major aspect of the VP debate will be the context as part of the Presidential debates.


If both Obama and McCain do well then it will increase the pressure on Palin to 'keep up with the guys'.


If Obama does well and McCain falters it puts emmense pressure on her to show that the entire ticket is not clueless.


If Obama has a 'Presidential' Debate and McCain gaffes, falters, looks feeble, misunderstands a question or shows aggressive anger during the debate (all possible) then this elections will be over in one week and the VP debate will be just for fun.

You seem to have an unusually strong historical grasp of the debates. How does the first debate rank in terms of importance vis a vis the other two.

I am guessing that most of the most memorable lines of the debates occurred during the first one when the public's interest is hightened.

[H2O Man]

21. Interesting.

You are, of course, correct in noting that the VP debate is of even more significance when we put it into the larger context of the series of debates, which include Barack Obama and John McCain. One of the things that I found revealing last week was Sarah's reference to the "Palin-McCain" ticket, which I am convinced is how she actually views it. When we consider that, then your points about the VP debate following Obama vs McCain are right on target.

Last night, after things quieted down here, I read one of the books that my son got me earlier in the week. It is Thomas DeFrank's book "Write It When I'm Gone," about his off-the-record conversations with Gerald Ford. I never liked President Ford, and have long resented the way he became the first ex-president to really prostitute that position. But, because I do love history -- and because my son selected it among five books he bought me -- I did read it.

As early as the 1990s, Ford thought that Hillary Clinton would eventually run for President. Obviously, he was not alone in that. In 2000, he said that he believed she would run in 2008, or possibly as soon as 2004. Although he felt she would be a tought candidate, he didn't think she would win.

At one point, he told the author, "I don't think the country is ready for a lady president. I guess I've told you before how I think it's gonna happen. Both parties or one of the parties will nominate a male for president and a female for vice president. The ticket will get elected. The president will die in office. The lady becomes president automatically, and once that happens the dam is broken. And from then on, us men are gonna be number-two." (page 135)

The stupid part of Ford's statement do not need my highlighting. But the other part sounds like a possibility, should the republicans win/steal the election.

In terms of the significance of the presidential and vice presidential debates, I'll say this: I honestly believe that this is the most important election of my lifetime. I have a lot of friends who are non-democrats, on the progressive left. I am asking them to suspend their dislike of the democratic party leadership in Washington, DC, this November, and to please vote for Obama and Biden.

One last thing. In terms of a woman president, I believe that at the end of Obama's second term, our country will be advanced enough that the most qualified individuals will be elected to the highest office. I think that in the decades to follow, that roughly half of the Presidents will be women, and that being a white male will no longer be considered a plus or a minus.

[Blackhatjack]

16. IMHO the 'black/white' worldview may be her most serious problem in the debate...

When it comes to analyzing serious issues of national importance, there are always competing interests among all of the affected parties.

The 'black/white' approach to answering all issues and classifying all parties is easily defeated with a minimal amount of interrogation.

Individuals 'oriented' in this manner are best exposed by giving them plenty of opportunities to fully explain how they have the superior power of discerning 'the truth' about everybody and everything by placing each in the appropriate black or white box.

I predict in a structured format Palin will try to use preplanned responses to questions, whether those responses are appropriate or not. IF the moderator presses her to more fully explain her answers, Palin is likely to substitute an emotional rather than logical basis for her earlier response.

This should lead the viewers to conclude this is a very dangerous person to place in a position of power.

[H2O Man]

25. Those are very important points.

This morning on MSNBC, Chuck Todd accurately noted that in a number of important primary contests, Obama did not do well among those who were "undecided" late in the game. It is possible that this same thing could be an important factor in determining the outcome of a number of states in November.

People who are still undecided at this point are likely to take special interest in the vice presidential debate, because the two presidential candidates alone have not secured their support. In that context, the VP debate becomes a crucial opportunity for both parties.

Sarah Palin's shallow, black and white thinking will not compare well to Joseph Biden's very real grasp of the issues that are important to the public. I think that more than in any other election, the vice presidential candidates will influence who goes to the White House, and who goes to the dog house.

[Neecy]

61. Interesting points

I think her black and white thinking will be complete deja vu for undecided voters, because George Bush has utterly discredited this approach to disasterous results.

When he framed the war on terror as good vs. evil, my first thought was - no, this was an evil act against good people. Putting it in an overbroad good/evil context led us directly to Iraq, torture, Gitmo, and secret renditions. And in history, when you read of a regime that espoused 'good vs evil' it's almost always those who thought themselves 'good' who ended up doing 'evil'. Bush falls into this category and McCain/Palin would be no different with perhaps more emphasis on Palin because of the fundamentalist doctrine that shapes this worldview.

I think people have seen the failure of grandiose pronouncements and certainty not backed by facts. The more she sounds like Bush, the better off we are. But God help us if they win - watching McCain tonight with his rheumy eyes and unhealthy pallor I think we'd end up not with a religious hypocrite like Bush but a true believer as our president and much sooner than we suspect. The Good/Evil theme will then turn into something far more disasterous than even Bush on his worst day could have cooked up.

[fed_up_mother]

38. True, but remember that the average voter doesn't "do" nuance very well, either :(

[JustAnotherGen]

18. H20

Thanks for your insight. It explains why I think she has such rotten energy.

[H2O Man]

26. Thank you.

Palin really does have "rotten energy." I find her repulsive.

[central scrutinizer]

22. Also helps with the "low expectations" meme

By giving her the format she wants, it removes the easy out (if she doesn't do well) that the Democrats rigged it so that she would not be at her best. Plus it also shows Biden's confidence that issues rather than trivial shit like the format of the debate are most important. Basically, Biden is saying, "Bring it on, give me your best shot."

[H2O Man]

27. Right.

By allowing her the format she prefers, it really does raise the expectations for her to do well. I do not think she has the ability to compete with Joseph Biden. I'm reminded of a saying about putting lipstick on a pig.

[blondeatlast]

23. A very close relative of mine has a borderline personality disorder. I hadn't considered Palin

in that light, but it's easy now to see the common traits they have. My relative does try to make others change their behavior and definitely attempts to thwart her treatment.

I've learned that the best way to deal with my relative is to keep the focus on the situation and away from her. Joe Biden's campaign style is uniquely suited to this same approach--always on the issue but his wit and cham come through unassisted; there's no force to it.

It's going to be good and Biden will do well or better. He can't help it; he's that kind of person. It's completely narural.

k/r

[H2O Man]

29. Yes.

One of the lines that she keeps repeating is that McCain and her are going to change the country. She has a low tolerance for people who do not hold the same social, political, and religious views as her. She feels both the need and the right to try to "change" them.

[Disturbed]

39. Palin over dose. Most are tired of her already. Only the

RW Fundies are excited about her. She is obviously a Sociopath with a Narcissistic Personality. If the US Corp. Media ran that video of her talking about the Minister who is the Witch Hunter, the majority of Americans that will actually vote would never vote for McLiar. Most are now suspecting that he may die before the end of his term were he elected. Imagining having Palin as Pres. horrifies most people, who aren't RW Fundies.

[bleever]

28. It will be interesting to watch the tension between her preparation and her personality.

Certainly they'll be coaching her on matters of tone, in addition to all the course material they hope to get her to at least be familiar with.

[H2O Man]

30. Yep.

I liked when Keith Olbermann pointed out how these coaches will instruct people to use the questioner's name while answering. The constant "Charlie, Charlie, Charlie" was already a giggle, but for those unfamiliar with this type of schooling, Keith made it even funnier.

For even the most highly intelligent among us, it is literally impossible to become a foreign policy expert in a matter of weeks. Attempts to disguise Palin as one will not work, no matter who is coaching her. And when she becomes aware that she is being exposed on the big stage, I am confident that the tone of her voice and answers will reflect her discomfort.

[bleever]

36. I think at the very least we'll hear some repetition of

bullet points from her Cliff's Notes Guide to Foreign Policy, along the lines of saying we shouldn't "second guess" Israel three or four times.

And I think Biden is really good at deconstructing, in plain terms, that kind of nonsensical glossing of serious issues.

[H2O Man]

40. We can take that

a step further, and be confident that there will be a question that deals with Sarah's previous statement to Charlie Gibson about the possibility of going to war with Russia.

How do her coaches recommend she respond? Should she stand firm, in hopes of appealing to all twelve voters who find security in the madness of Dick Cheney? Or do they suggest that she borrow the McCain-style apology of "what he really meant to say"?

The "what I meant to say" comes easily to McCain. I do not see Palin being able to admit error.

[Bensthename]

31. This will be highest watched VP debate. GOP has put Palin very high on a pedestal.

Put those two together and Palin is set up for a hard fall. Joe rocked in the dem debates. I almost feel bad for Sarah, haha...

[H2O Man]

43. True.

The republican machine created a pedestal with a weak foundation, and they constructed it on shakey ground. It will not hold.

"Mr. Biden, knock this pedestal down!"

[TheDonkey]

32. WHAT is this format? Any link to what the format will be?

[TheDonkey]

34. I used the google and have a link for people

I hate when posts do not provide links or info. DU should be more about just throwing out opinions but a place for people to come and be educated.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/20/AR2008092001992.html

[PCIntern]

33. The reason we have visceral reactions to Palin and Bush

is that "we know them".

We've all met them in many contexts and been subjected to their insanities. If it were a college dorm, you'd just avoid the person; if it were a workplace, it can be much harder, if it's family, it can be disastrous for the relatives. These folks raise the hairs on the back of the neck, the blood pressures, the awareness and qui vive of all concerned. They are disruptive, obnoxious, and in-your-face; they are difficult, hard-to-please, and generally narrow of viewpoint and often highly-opinionated. To sum up: they require many hyphens to describe, that's how you know that they're, well, un-well.

[Mist]

35. Thanks for this thread, H2OMan. Very informative. Unlike so many here, I

don't find Palin toxic, just incredibly deranged. Which I suppose is toxic, in its own way.

[H2O Man]

44. One example that

comes to mind is Palin's views on abortion. I can deal with people who have a wide range of views on the numerous issues involved in the on-going public debate. I have a problem with her thinking that she has a monopoly on The Answer, which includes denying rights to those who are the victim of rape. I think her lack of compassion and her self-righteous belief that she is entitled to decide how other people must live is a dangerous poison.

[DeeDeeNY]

37. I'm okay with the structure as long as they check her back for "bulges"

Like W at a 2004 debate --

[H2O Man]

45. If there is

any way to cheat, I think the republicans will.

[Bluenorthwest]

77. Her new hair style...

Is perfect for hiding the ear piece. Other than that, Gwen needs to keep her from interrupting, which was Palin's primary tactic in her debate while running for Governor. She just talked over her opponents, and she was allowed to do so.

[kurt_cagle]

54. What's the Frequency, Kenneth?

nt

[LiberalLovinLug]

87. A structured format will be great for the GOP

If they also use a wire. If there is no back and forth, all she has to do is spout out memorized talking points. She may not even need the wire. But it will give her a lot more confidence going in, which will show, if they have her hooked up as a back up in case she forgets her lines.

Isn't there some kind of electronic zapper that can interfere with signals? I'd love to see a democrat in the audience smuggle one in and turn it on during the debate, just as a precaution. If she is wired and her safety line is cut off with no warning, you'd see her true unbalanced self come through. Now that would be fun to watch.

[DeeDeeNY]

92. It happened to W during the 2004 debate

He must have been having problems with his audio feed, and appeared to be listening to something other than what the moderator was saying. At one point, he was dead silent for a long time after being asked a question, as though he were waiting for something. The mainstream media pundits ignored this.
If only they could get an electronic zapper for this debate, that would be great.

[Me.]

42. My Take On Her Is That

She's way too pleased with herself and thinks she's the cutest thing to come down the pike in a long time. She is so very pleased with herself. It's an observation I've heard from other women along with she's the type of female who doesn't like women and always play to men. So in Ifill she is not playing to one of her strengths.

And with all due respect, what do you have against Barney Fife? He exaggerated but didn't lie and remained true to his friends. She is more like a Boss Hog type if you ask me. Damn, that gets us right back in the pig neighborhood.

[H2O Man]

46. She is so special

that it would take Charlotte two webs to fully describe her: the first one saying "SUPER-" and the second saying "-FICIAL."

[Top Cat]

48. I agree..... When Palin under performs in this structured environment

The public will finally so the risk of a McPalin administration. We could not ask for a better scenario.

[H2O Man]

66. Yep.

I think that the public will see how unqualified she actually is.

[jillan]

49. Interesting is that Gwen Ifill is going to be moderating that debate.

So Ms Mooselips can't cry about the old boy's club ganging up on her.

Actually - it's more like poor Joe. He's the one that's going to be outnumbered.
But I have NO doubt that Biden will handle it real well.

[H2O Man]

67. Right.

I thought that Joe Biden showed his talent at debating in the democratic primary. And he was facing some pretty tough competition.

[Gregorian]

52. I somewhat disagree.

But only under the circumstance that the questions are picked just for Sarah Palin. The reason being that from the limited information I've seen on the change of debate format, it will lessen the ability for the participants to banter. If these two thing happen, it could help make Palin shine. I've heard it's possible to polish a turd. But I could be wrong about that. It could be the case that Biden would quickly catch on and begin answering in ways that circumvent his being tied down by the format.

But it's probably just paranoia when it comes to any thoughts of Palin coming across as anyone but Tina Fey.

[H2O Man]

68. There are rumors that

suggest that some republican leaders are considering asking Tina Fey to stand in for Sarah on the debate. They believe that Fey would be taken more seriously than Palin. Certainly, Tina Fey is more qualified to serve as vice president.

[CrispyQ]

53. I think everyone who was on the repub VP list

was at least a little apprehensive of going up against Biden.

With Palin, however, it wouldn't surprise me if she honestly believes that she will be fine with just a few weeks of cliff notes preparation & a few snappy sound bites. She comes across to me as a very shallow person & I think she views this as more of a popularity contest than a serious debate about the direction of our country. I think she is confident that her pretty face & folksy ways will win people over. I don't think she's aware of just how many people are deeply afraid of her radical ideology.

Thank you for the well thought out post & the dialog it ensued. This is the type of thread I come to DU for & wade through all the other crap for.

[H2O Man]

69. Debating

can be the most difficult type of public speaking. I think Joe Biden is among the very best at this when he is on. In the format of the primary debates, I thought that he was the best. Senator Clinton is strong in a debate -- I think she is actually stronger than Bill Clinton (who, like JFK, was at his best in a Q&A format with individual reporters and/or citizens). Biden combines the entertainment of an Al Sharpton; the inspiration of a Jesse Jackson; and the logic of a Mario Cuomo. Thus, it is unlikely any of the republican vp possibilities wanted to go up against him in a debate.

[ecstatic]

56. LOL! Hope you're right :) nt

[H2O Man]

71. The VP debate

will be a lot of fun for democrats.

[tomp]

58. one needs to be exceedingly careful about remote diagnoses...

...with limited interaction with the patient (limited=less than a full psychological/psychiatric interview).

it is easy to tell she is sick, but what she has should remain an open question for now.

for example, i've worked closely with many "borderlines" over the last five years. i can't remember one who had palin's level of grandiosity (her grandiosity borders on delusion: she actually tells us she is qualified for the presidency). and i've yet to see her come unhinged as all "borderlines" i've known eventually do. when they lose it, they really lose it. there also are no known reports of self-injury (although i consider waiting 29 hours to get to a hospital after her water broke a close call).

she can easily be attacked on her inexperience and her just plain bad ideas.

thanks

[glowing]

63. There's not much known about her.. But it seems that the family is very

disjointed and not particularly happy.

[H2O Man]

65. I understand.

And I appreciate when good democrats are compassionate to those who suffer. But, in this rare case, I thought it was important to speak out.

The republican party is divided, and in an uproar. Half of them believe that the Palin candidacy has flat-lined, and they keep showing the highlights of the Gibson interview to show that poor Sarah is brain dead. The republican spin doctors attempting to rescue her are even talking about pulling the plug on her candidacy.

For that reason, I have posted the OP, and have gone so far as to ask both Houses of the DU Congress to pass Emergency Bill #9, to let Sarah Palin survive until the November election. On election day, we can join together and bury her.

[tomp]

82. lol!!!

please don't get me wrong. it is not out of compassion that i suggest we withhold diagnosis. it is out of professional ethics and because i see such a hodgepodge of diagnostic speculations so often here on du.

as far as i'm concerned we can state emphatically, without fear of misstatement, that she is one sick puppy and in need of professional help if there is to be any hope (for her or for us. with any luck the republicans will realize that the world realizes she's crazy AND will admit it AND think they can cure her before the election.)

and as far as i'm concerned she is the best thing to happen for democratic electoral politics in a long time, and so much fun, to boot.

i also believe that a candidate's mental health is fair game. we should address her symptoms and not her diagnosis. based on symptoms alone she is a danger to others and could be involuntarily committed, along the other napoleans and jesus christs.

[H2O Man]

83. I don't think

that Sarah Palin is mentally ill. I think she has a personality disorder. Discussing it is not much different than saying someone like McCain has a Type A personality.

[tomp]

93. personality disorders are listed in the dsm...

...i'm surprised (to say the least) by your statement.

i'm pretty liberal on what gets defined as "mental illness", so irrespective of what the dsm says i would debate you on sarah palin's mental health status, but personality disorders are right up there with depression, bipolar d/o, and schizophrenia in terms of seriousness. you can't really define her as a person with borderline personality disorder AND say she is not mentally ill. do you think sociopaths are not mentally ill? perhaps this is a definitional problem.

borderline personality d/o is not at all like type a personality. we're not talking about introvert vs extravert here, either, or "thinker" vs "feeler". we're talking about people who can cause serious harm to self or others (at least wildlife, is her helicopter hunting not sociopathic itself, any different from blowing up frogs?). sarah palin fits the definition.

[Eyes_wide_ open]

59. It still boggles my mind that,

with McCain's announcement of Palin as his VP choice, the collective media did not burst into peals of derisive laughter insisting this had to be some sort of bad joke. Her name WAS bandied around a bit when they were discussing possible VP choices. Did they not even peek into her background at all before dismissing her as a real possibility, or is it possible they were as clueless as most of the American public about who she is and what she represents? And if so, why the complicity in promoting her in the beginning (not so much now thank goodness!)

I don't have the experience or expertise to give an informed opinion on your insight of her psyche, but will say it resonates with my gut level reaction to her vibe. I believe Sarah Palin is wrong for the VP position on many levels other than the most obvious critical one that she is, indeed, uniquely unqualified for office.

Thanks for your thoughtful and comprehensive post.

[H2O Man]

72. Bill Moyers

has noted that most political/social crises in our nation are accompanied by a crisis in the media. Attempts to pretend that Sarah Palin is anything other than totally unqualified for the office of the vice president provides evidence of this.

[cognoscented]

60. Palin's Energy Policy

[H2O Man]

73. Oh dear.

[jakem]

76. lol. that was exactly my response.

perhaps not the most auspicious of intros cogno, but Welcome to DU-

[SalviaBlue]

62. Thank you for posting this! Nominated.

[H2O Man]

74. Thank you. n/t

[Norrin Radd]

70. She'll be wearing her hair down, to cover the bluetooth receiver in her ear.

[H2O Man]

75. I think that

if there is any way to cheat, the republicans will try.

[bertman]

78. Excellent post, H20 Man. I would have recced it but I was gone all weekend.

Please allow me to play the devil's advocate.

First, everyone who thinks that the corporate media will allow this "debate" to be set up to favor Biden, raise your right hand, make a fist, extend your middle finger and wave it in the air. You may also pump your fist rhythmically to the tune of that old song that says "Na Na Na Na Hey Hey Hey Goodbye." The Palin/McAnus ticket is the corporate ticket. The corporate media will do everything possible to make Sweet Sarah look good and Joltin' Joe look like a bullying elitist asshole who thinks he's an expert on everything.

Don't count out the Biden "verbal diarrhea" factor when it comes to giving Palin a chance to shine, no, not shine, I really mean "survive". While Biden is a very good debater he also tends to offhandedly toss in juicy nuggets that are nutty at best (anybody remember the Janjuwee outburst during one of the early primary debates) or potentially disasterous at worst (as in Hillary being a more qualified Vice President than he). My guess is the Obama camp will equip Joe with a "shock tie" similar to those electronic collars used to stifle barking dogs.

As for Sarah, it should be easy enough to conceal all of the necessary secret communications gear within the feminine underclothes containing her womanly, child-nurturing breasts. As was already mentioned, her hairdo will easily take care of the concealed earpiece.

For a sneak preview of what the debate questioning might look and sound like, just watch a rerun of the April Clinton-Obama debate moderated by Stephanolpolous and Charlie Gibson during which the moderators were constantly "framing" questions in a way that were barely concealed attempts to make Obama look and sound bad.

But, I hope you guys are right about this being a trap for Fertilla the Huntress. We'll see.

[JPZenger]

79. Fey asks people to help avoid the need to play Palin after Nov. 5

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/tina-feys-emmy-night-humb_n_128175.html

After last night's awards, Tina Fey said she would like to stop playing Palin after November 5th. She said if anyone can help avoid the need for her to play Palin after the election, that you be fine with her.

In other words, step away from the keyboard and get out there and campaign folks!

[Blue_Roses]

80. Once again, you have

said it all:) The voice of reason strikes again!

I agree. Joe Biden does do better in a structured environment. He will be forced (somewhat) to stay on cue, which will eliminate the possibility of him rambling, while forcing the large ego of Sarah Palin into a restrained corner.

Is that it in a nutshell?

[Shanti Mama]

86. This is, I think, the most interesting discussion I've ever read on

DU. I love people-watching, trying to understand what makes them tick. THANK YOU.
So sorry I didn't read early enough to recommend.

[King Coal]

89. Exceptional Post, H2O man, but what if by "structure" they mean that

she gets the questions in advance, and is well-coached with the answers? Can a melodramatic personality disorder in Palin be alleviated, if she is rehearsed for every question? Or will a person with a borderline personality disorder resist coaching the same as resisting treatment?

Also, some people misinterpret the disorder, and tend to believe that it is a desirable trait, as we saw during her speech at the GOP convention. I believe, however, that Biden will use contrast to enlighten such people.


BTW, in any event, borderlines are "dangerous" if they happen to be running for VP on a GOP ticket? LOL! They can sure bite if they win!