DU Christians, please tell me: Where in the Bible does it say to take over the government?

[Fire Walk With Me]

And to force everyone else to do things your way? I keep missing it, but the right wingers are insisting it's there. Please advise.

Posting in GDP because it's an election issue.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Literally? Nowhere that I know of. But they love to take all kinds of verses

and interpret them to mean what you are talking about. Drives me crazy.

You might find some stuff on it here:

http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=29

[Fire Walk With Me]

4. Thanks.

Open-minded Christians such as yourself are valuable to DU, as an added bonus must drive the right-wingers crazy. I'm way too flawed to be a positive example to anyone, so thanks for showing up..

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. They consider me a heretic, so yeah, I really wig them out. :^P

[Fire Walk With Me]

35. Well, keep smiling- if you're a heretic to some for having a positive message,

you're likely tapping the actual point of the entire Christian message :)

[Kalyke]

2. No where.

Well, it may be in the New Testament of the Faux-Christian Regime version, but it's not in the average Bible.

In fact, Jesus was all for the separation of Church and State. He clearly kicked out the money-changers (taxmen) from the Temple and he said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s." (Matthew 22:21)

[madamesilverspurs]

44. But it does talk about

Jesus spending time with Publicans, maybe that's where they get it.

Odd, though, that they seem to have completely lost track of that thing about bearing false witness. Wonder how they managed that in the middle of all that posturing righteousness.

[AspenRose]

3. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars

and to God that which is God's."


Nope...nothing about taking over governments. Sorry.

[Fire Walk With Me]

6. Thanks to you and the poster before you. This is a decent talking point,

especially if you can put it to one of them. I doubt that they could come up with anything even resembling an answer...

[davidinalameda]

15. I was going to mention that verse

[JackintheGreen]

5. Here's a little on democracy - and it's not very nice...

From the skeptics Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/democracy.html)

Luke 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.... But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.... But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Numbers 16:1-35
Now Korah...and Dathan and Abiram...and On...rose up before Moses, with...250 princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?...And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment...And it came to pass...that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and ... they, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

Jeremiah 10:23
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

8. ROFL

[Fire Walk With Me]

17. So long as it -doesn't- say, take over the government and bully others,

we can ask them about it until they are forced to face it. Sounds like a good talking point to me, and you don't have to believe a thing in the Bible in order to ask about it ;)

[Fire Walk With Me]

66. Did someone alert on that? I have no problem living alongside anyone who utterly detests the bible

religion, and spirituality, so long as they don't get in my face, and I don't get in theirs.

That wasn't happening here. Odd..

[QC]

9. "My kingdom is not of this world." They missed that one. n/t

[DustyJoe]

10. Well

Right about the second verse in Grabbicus where it says "grabbious the cashicus"

[Gwendolyn]

43. Haha! The Book of Hypocriticus is a fav among Fundies too!

:rofl:

[vanderBeth]

11. It's in the Jerry Falwell version.

Jerry 2:16

[Beregond2]

12. The Bible can be used to justify - or condemn - anything,

if you indulge in "proof-texting," which is the fundamentalists favorite sport. Taken as an evolving tradition, the Bible does not advocate for any particular form of government.

[holiday]

14. well I consider myself evangelical

and really there seems to be a lot of negative imagery of those who were in charge (kings)

I always say religion is pure and good and politics is anything but. I go to Church and listen to my preacher, not my Congressman lol. Tell them about the velvet mafia.

[jberryhill]

18. Romans 13 is not "negative" w/r/t any type of government under which one may live /nt

[grasswire]

13. It's the heretical dominionists -- a cult Palin belongs to

Palin is a heretic to mainstream Christians. There is no scriptural basis for their beliefs that they are destined to infiltrate government and rule the earth.

HERETIC.

HERETIC.

Hear that, Dobson?

[jberryhill]

19. You are correct. They are heretics. /nt

[dgibby]

37. Just like Gomer Huckatic! nt

[jberryhill]

16. For "that type of 'Christian'", participatory government is a problem

The BuyBull of course does not anticipate democratic government, so the problem is that a lot of them hang their hat on Romans 13:


1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


The early Christians had to come to pragmatic grips with the fact that Rome was the only game in town, and that rebellion against Rome was suicidal. So Paul, being the good Roman lawyer that he was, basically said, "It's there. God must have put it there. Deal with it."

For a long time, Christians in this country pretty much understood that "Christian" government only has the effect of corrupting both their Christian witness and democratic government. The signal event which changed all that was Roe v. Wade, which spawned the religious right as we know it today, and which persuaded them to shift from the view of "government has its place" to interpreting Romans 13 in the American context as saying that the broader "system" was instituted by God, and that Christians are and should be the right ones to run it. This is when they started constructing the bizarre "Christian Nation" revisionist history of the founding of this country.

Oddly, the only "Christian government" hinted at in the BuyBull is that the disciples shared a common purse with Judas as treasurer - suggesting a separation of powers between Christ's lordship and the function of managing expenses; and in Acts, where we are informed that the Christians shared all things in common, but the penalty for not chipping in one's share is severe (e.g. Ananias and Sapphira).

Modern evangelical protestants are only dimly beginning to appreciate the damage they've done to their brand by sullying their faith with a political program. In fact, that's all their "faith" has become, which is why actual Christians really need to find another word to refer to their category of faith.

[Fire Walk With Me]

21. Hmm. Except for the fact that as ultra-exclusionist bullies, they have no honor.

And as such, at least technically, are not worthy of the positions they seek.

Thanks.

[jberryhill]

27. What makes them scary...

...is that they think THEY are persecuted victims of... something.

They've got this "cornered rat" mentality, because they think if someone living on their street does not agree with them, then they are being "oppressed".

[Fire Walk With Me]

41. That...

...is fear. Big-time.

I've tried to reason with people that deeply in fear, and of course, it doesn't work. The best answer is to treat them lovingly, or at minimum how you'd like to be treated, in the hope that it might eventually show them that they might not actually have reason to be afraid. Even spending time attempting to convince them of another way merely cements these defenses..somehow, they have to find out that libruls aren't out to eat their babies.

[jberryhill]

47. There's that...

...but I don't see why they don't take comfort in the ability of their own God to protect them from all the demons they think are chasing after them.

The other tack is to help them follow their own logic. They believe that a good lot of their own in the "end times" are going to be deceived into heresy. In other words, the anti-christ is not going to be a secular leader - it will be one of their own, and they'll buy it. After all, there's no point in "deceiving" the already hell-bound.

On the one hand, it feels pretty silly to engage them by the terms of their own stupid game, but pointing out stuff like "Since when did God become pro-war, start disliking poor people, and think 'Country First' was a suitable slogan for anyone familiar with the First Commandment.

Their politics seems to have taken them on a dramatic 180 degree turn from what are otherwise pretty basic social ideas in the Bible.

[Fire Walk With Me]

57. Great points.

I myself have had to deal with unreasoning fear, and I've found some compassion for those who do as well (I used to think that we have to control them as they would first control us, but this is changing in me).

That much fear is a loop, a closed system. Obviously, it cannot be penetrated by reason or any argument. It also cannot be penetrated by -anything- external, including God, or there wouldn't be any fear.

This may be taken as proof that they are under the influence of fear, not God, and as such, might wish to change their course away from fear...

Those in such levels of fear will grasp at security and continuity, and defend against whatever seems to threaten it (which becomes a very long list). I've met people unable to meet life on life's terms. We're not all schooled in the processes and techniques of living. Some go into extreme rebellion (me) and might eventually find it to be self-destructive and quit, seeking something better, and some may build communities (and philosophies) which are armored against anything that could challenge it. The ultimate search for safety, which can brook no threat. Genuine kindness might be the only effective key.

Of course, there are those who are merely lovers of taking advantage, and such troublemakers may be dealt with through the laws we already have in place (use them before they're gone, at this rate). Bush and friends obviously have zero interest in religion, much less spirituality, for anything other than a rallying cry for support for their selfish agenda. Hopefully many will have been disappointed into seeing this, and wishing for a change.

Those types are fairly easy to spot. If we could then keep them out of positions of power...but the True Believer is the issue here, when the belief negates the rights and pursuit of happiness for others.

[quaker bill]

29. Roe v. Wade

is a common notion of the place where the religious right was born. However, it is far more accurate to cite Brown v. Board of education.

Before desegregation, private conservative Christian schools were quite rare and poorly attended. Within 5 years of Brown V. Board, most sizeable conservative churches in the south had a private religious school, and when Kennedy began enforcing desegregation, the numbers mushroomed. This generation of RR leaders are the product of those schools.

[jberryhill]

50. Good point

The reaction to Brown v. Board of Education was more like, "Okay, let's go off and do our own thing."

Roe v. Wade seems to have inspired them to mess with everyone else's lives.

[Two Americas]

53. a marketing campaign

Televangelists tried a variety of marketing approaches, and discovered that gays and fetuses were the best topocs for fund raising. They did that because they wanted money, not because of anything to do with any religious doctrine.

I know that it is much more exciting to think of it as some sort of epic good versus evil Hollywood script, and a marketing campaign seems rather prosaic by comparison, but I really think that is all that it is.

[Fire Walk With Me]

58. Very true. People adore drama and struggle for their viewpoint to "win".

It's the current basis of television, to an extent :/

Us Versus Them: and in the end, it's what the fighting's all about... We need to wean ourselves from the animal-level adrenaline rush of this struggle. It's not getting us where we want to go.

Which is why getting together to build a community in spite of our differences is so very important. The Founding Fathers understood this, although they could only go so far to change the status quo of the day.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. I think Stephen Colbert has a pretty good answer to that

"Posting the ten commandments in public buildings or banning homosexual unions is small government. But if they're caring for the poor, turning the other cheek, or sitting down with tax gatherers, that's big government. To put it simpler, mentioning Jesus in your speech is small government; Doing what Jesus asked is big government."

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Heh.

:D

[Rocknrule]

23. Why does it matter?

It's not like they actually pay attention to anything in the Bible besides the verses on homosexuality

[holiday]

24. that's my problem with the religious right

they focus on issues that make them feel like spiritually they are above someone else.

[JuniperLea]

64. Even after being told...

Their self-righteousness is but filthy rags... they remain self-righteous with a vengeance!! Idiots.

[WCGreen]

25. Actually, Jesus, whom a lot of Conservatives play only lip service to,

made it quit clear when he tossed out the money changers that government and the church should not be melded together.

Also, that little remark about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars is also a big hint that Jesus wanted there to be a separation of Church and state.

[JuniperLea]

65. Well said

There is very little of what Jesus actually said being held to the light these days.

If God wanted us to obey all his laws without question, we would have never left the garden... heck, we would have never left heaven! If you take the story as truth, God gave us free will to decide to follow his laws or not. There's nothing in the Bible that says the followers of Jesus Christ should force God's laws upon everyone. I think that by virtue of this attempt, the RW Fundies are going against God's plan. They are attempting to take something away from the people that God gave to all.

Silly humans playing God.

[anonymous171]

26. Right after the part where it says that rich people are awesome and poor people are lazy.

[regnaD kciN]

30. Nowhere. Any other questions?

:shrug:

[KittyWampus]

31. you know full well DU Christians don't believe the Bible says "take over Govt." your inflammatory

CRAP is transparent.

[Starry Messenger]

33. Blessed are the peacemakers. n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

38. I'm not trolling or flaming in the least. I'm sick of the ultrachristian ultrabullies

who give a bad name to the actual message. I feel that asking them "where in the Bible does it say to take over the government" is a good talking point, which might (read: "might") eventually plant a seed regarding what I perceive to be a distance between the message of peace, and their own philosophy, which does not match the Bible.

A good talking point, is all. Time to get back to basics. These people are highly active, and they'll eat our lunch if we don't loudly, clearly, and staunchly stand up for the truth.

[dgibby]

40. not transparent to me

If I read the op correctly, he/she is asking for info in order to refute RW talking points, but that is certainly one righteous rant you've got going there. What's wrong, didn't you ever hear about "turning the other cheek" or maybe the secular version of giving someone the benefit of the doubt?:shrug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

42. "..he/she is asking for info in order to refute RW talking points"...

Correct. No offense intended, however, seeing how many seeking spirituality are sometimes treated, I can fully understand the reaction. No offense taken either; I hope that things can change so that all feel the safety to live free of (otherwise quite understandable) defenses.

[Zhade]

48. Well, you're talking about a poster who endorses creationism.

NT!

[dgibby]

52. well, that would explain a lot!

Gandhi was right-I like your Christ-his followers: not so Christ-like (paraphrased)

[Fire Walk With Me]

55. If you're talking about me, I believe in creation but not Creationism.

Natural law is fact, and God isn't trying to trick us by placing dinosaur bones in the ground when the Universe is actually only 6000 years old...Natural law is true, evolution is true, science has much going for it when it doesn't fudge facts to promote hoped-for outcomes. Spirit is separate from material. Much correlation is currently being made between spiritual and quantum texts, it's quite interesting. Have you read any Capra?

I've seen enough things in several spiritual texts confirmed, to give grudging expectation to the other things they say. Yoga is a science...meditation provides some quite unexpected insights if pursued scientifically (does repeated action produce the stated results, etc.)

My overall statement in this thread is that the constant grind between those who want to run the world, against those who just want to live in it, requires cooling down, or we're in trouble. And I'm parroting a teacher here, I'm not that original, and I definitely am not a good example, but still wish to promote some ideas I feel are highly important, which should carry obvious merit on their own.

[dgibby]

60. no, not you. another poster.

[ladym55]

32. Here's something else to note

Jesus was ALWAYS taking on the Pharisees, the affluent Jews of the time who were really big on their own self-righteousness and their legalistic interpretation of the Judaic law. Jesus got in their faces regularly, calling them "hypocrites" and "vipers" on occasion. In their self-righteousness and arrogance, they overlooked the whole point of their faith tradition ... loving and caring for one another, especially those who were suffering. (And Jews under Roman rule were in large numbers suffering)

The Pharisees of Jesus' time bear a VERY strong resemblance to ANOTHER group of affluent and self-righteous Americans who just think they are SO sharp and end up missing the point. Can you say right-wing Christian?

[Fire Walk With Me]

59. :)

[jwirr]

34. The answers here are good so maybe I will just try to tell you where

that idiot idea of taking over the government comes from. Originally the church had no goals to take over government. Around 600 AD the church started working with kings and rulers by kind of endorsing them as ordained by God. This practice developed into what is called today the Divine right of kings. It has no place in a democracy. After the reformation there was so much fighting between governments over which religion they were going to be that when our ancestors came to America it did not take them long to figure out that freedom of religion and separation of church and state was the only way to go.

However, there were those denominations that interpreted parts of Revelations to imply that Jesus would come back to earth and have a 1000 year reign in which they would take part. Therein lies the problem - these fundamentalist churches are today trying to set up this 1000 year reign. They have been especially vigorous in the last 40-50 years because they also assumed that this coming would take place in the year 2000 the millennium.

It is a matter of interpretation and not explicit Biblical passages.

[jberryhill]

45. Here's the part I don't get - and I used to *be* one

I could never figure out the part where God needs them to set up anything. If they want to wait around for the trumpet to sound, and yadda, yadda, yadda, then what's the problem with that? Why do they feel like God is so powerless that he needs them to set up some kind of Holy Government since, really... don't they also say that it's the very government they are going to set up which is the one that is going to be wiped out when Kingdom comes?

[jwirr]

46. Bingo.

[jberryhill]

49. I was afraid you'd say something like that

Because what really twigs me out when I look at what's going on with modern evangelical protestants is that it's almost enough to make a believer out of me again.

It's like the Sixth Sense - "I see heretics... and they don't know they are heretics."

I mean, these "Christians" strike me as exactly the sort who are lining up to be the army of the anti-christ itself - *IF* I was going to go back to that whole mindwasting exercise.

[jwirr]

76. I also agree with that. They do everything the opposite of what they

are told to do plainly in the Bible and somehow see themselves as the good side. They have done more damage to the church as I knew it in the 60-70s than any action that satan could take in the whole history of the church. To see that all you have to do is look at the number of our own members here on the DU that have left the church. I do not blame them at all.

[The Hope Mobile]

36. Absolutely NOWHERE!

It does say that we are supposed to support the leaders that God put over us . . . but I feel very confident that this is not what was intended. Any Christian with an ounce of common sense knows that these guys (the BFEE et al) are NOT really Christians.

[11 Bravo]

39. Nowhere in my Bible.

[PerfectSage]

51. It's one of the 10 commandments in the heretic christian bible.

Right after: Thou shalt covet thy neighbor's ass.

[dgibby]

54. Too funny!

:spray:

[lonestarnot]

56. This?

:shrug:

Isaiah 9:5-7 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

[JuniperLea]

62. This is speaking of the Kingdom of God

Not an Earthly kingdom. The governments ruled by man are but filthy rags and not worthy of God's worry.

We were given free will... the RW Fundy nutjobs want to take away what God has given.

[lonestarnot]

68. I haven't read all the details, but do know the Lord's prayer, and there is a clause

"On earth as it is in heaven." :)

[JuniperLea]

70. That's right after "thy Kingdom come"

Still about his kingdom... he gave the Earth to the Devil for 2000 years... until Jesus comes back... and his kingdom will be on Earth after that.

I was raised in a Fundy church... I had my own gospel ministry when I was a teenager... one of my cousins who was raised in the same church is now a Christian missionary, in Israel. She, her husband, and two daughters started out ultra Fundy, but after learning several languages (between them, they are fluent in seven languages, including Hebrew) and studying with those who have been given access to the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient copies of early Bibles, have given up the idea of "rapture" among other bits of dogma we were taught. It's really interesting to see her moving closer to my ideas over the past 20 years. The more she learns, the more we are both convinced of the bastardization of the religion.

[noonwitch]

61. It actually says the opposite

Not just the give to caesar what is caesar's, but in other places. I know Paul tells his readers to obey the king, or words to that effect (the KJV would say King, for obvious political reasons of King James himself). I just don't know right off-hand which epistle has that verse in it.


Constantine decided to conquer the material world for Christ.

[TheKentuckian]

63. Keep in mind please that like everything else

Republicans lie about and distort the Bible.

Ask the greedy bastards about Jubilee and see how fast they distance from the scripture or feign ignorance.

[Fire Walk With Me]

67. Jubilee doesn't ring a bell, but it sounds important...what am I missing?

[TheKentuckian]

74. Jubilee calls for all debts to be forgiven every seven years

Its probably the loose basis of why bankruptcy takes 7 years to recover from.
Every seven years is the Jubilee year, all debts are let go as well as any indentured person was released.
It was a big deal in Old Testament times.

[FloridaGrl]

69. Nowhere

Infact as someone mentioned before "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". All examples of church and state uniting in the bible ended up in persecution including Jesus being nailed to the cross. It surprises me to see Christians defending church and state unity.
And to the second question- God gave everyone a choice. When Jesus came he never forced anything on anyone.

[notsoaveragejoe]

71. The Lord will usher in his kingdom on Earth

[FloridaGrl]

72. That's after the second coming

[TheKentuckian]

75. Nope, that's what a Freeper might try to sell you to continue their greed

linking it in with the Tribulation but this is an Old Testament times practice.

[Nikki Stone1]

73. He has given us... His shoe!

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-17.htm


FOLLOWERS:
Oh! Oh! Ohh! Oh! Ah! Oh!
ARTHUR:
He has given us a sign!

FOLLOWER:
Oh!
SHOE FOLLOWER:
He has given us... His shoe!
ARTHUR:
The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example.
SPIKE:
What?
ARTHUR:
Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.
EDDIE:
Yes.
SHOE FOLLOWER:
No, no, no. The shoe is...
YOUTH:
No.
SHOE FOLLOWER:
...a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.
GIRL:
Cast off...
SPIKE:
Aye. What?
GIRL:
...the shoes! Follow the Gourd!
SHOE FOLLOWER:
No! Let us gather shoes together!
FRANK:
Yes.
SHOE FOLLOWER:
Let me!
ELSIE:
Oh, get off!
YOUTH:
No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!
SHOE FOLLOWER:
Give me your shoe!
YOUTH:
Get off!
GIRL:
Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!
FOLLOWER:
The Gourd!
HARRY:
Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us!
ARTHUR:
It is a shoe! It is a shoe!
HARRY:
It's a sandal!
ARTHUR:
No, it isn't!
GIRL:
Cast it away!
ARTHUR:
Put it on!
YOUTH:
And clear off!
SHOE FOLLOWER:
Take the shoes and follow Him!
GIRL:
Come,...
FRANK:
Yes!
GIRL:
...all ye who call yourself Gourdenes!
SPIKE:
Stop! Stop! Stop, I say! Stop! Let us-- let us pray. Yea, He cometh to us, like the seed to the grain.

[Fire Walk With Me]

77. He's not the Messiah; he's just a very bad boy.

[Vattel]

78. The Bible is pro-Choice

The Mosaic law (allegedly God's law for ancient Israel) says that if two men are fighting and they accidently knock into a pregnant woman, then if she dies, the men are to be killed, but if the woman just has a miscarriage, then the woman's husband can ask for a small sum of money from the men. Obviously the God of Moses places relatively little value on fetal life.