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Bombshell: GOP Congressmen accuse McCain of collaboration with N. Viets and betrayal of POWs/MIAs

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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:14 AM
Original message
Bombshell: GOP Congressmen accuse McCain of collaboration with N. Viets and betrayal of POWs/MIAs
This is amazing stuff. It's a 1992 video that has gone down the memory hole. Top GOP members of Congress say that McCain collaborated with the North Vietnamese and then denied there were any POW/MIAs left behind.

They also accuse him of stopping the release of records on POWs in order to cover up his collaboration. These are not lightweight people in the GOP. And they were pissed that McCain blocked efforts to get the North Vietnamese to release information.

This video needs to go viral -- and it needs to be seen by any veteran planning on voting for McCain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g

This is damning. I can't believe any veteran would vote for McCain after seeing this.
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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Mark E. Smith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. This must be seen, and talked about
Why this isn't out there is a mystery to me.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Its not out there because these are Kerry/Clinton haters who hate
McCain because he agreed with them.

As has been shown before the issue of "left behind POWs" was exhaustively studied by the USG including full time intelligence examination of every credible lead. The investigation was substantially added by over 20,000 interviews of Vietnamese refugees and a carte blanche invitation by the PRV to visit any crash site anywhere in the country. The Vietnamese also opened all of their files for American review.

Even the most hardened Vietnamese hating military Generals and officers, who were involved in the investigation, admitted that there was no credible evidence that the PRV had any unaccounted for Americans. Some died in prison and there were a few non prisoner deserters who accounted for the alleged sightings. All of the Americans who were deserters voluntarily returned to the US and served modest sentences.

It is widely assumed that there was one group of about 18 prisoners who were known to be alive and all vanished the same night. That was in Laos, not Vietnam and happened immediately after American bombers inflicted heavy civilian death as a result of their bombing. Ironically even though we were at full war in Laos the US government never broke diplomatic relations with Laos at any time during the entire conflict and maintained a small consulate in Vientiane.

Spread the allegations if you wish, but you should be aware that after the war millions were raised and spent in an elaborate con that milked on the vulnerabilities of the POW families and the overwhelming majority of these families understood exactly what the US was doing and satisfied with the results. Ending the investigation meant that people who went across the US raising tens of millions of dollars (including millions from Ross Perot) for faux "liberation attempts" (they would go to Thailand and send balloons into Laos) was shut down. Rewards for evidence of POW remains opened a small cottage industry in Thailand of recycling human bone fragments back for rewards - none of these matched POW DNA and in some cases involved chicken bones.

Again these people really consider Kerry and Clinton the number one target for trying to re establish diplomatic relations with the PRV and McCain only got in the way because he was the only one that would stand up to the con people. He was angry because for their farfetched conspiracy tail to be true it requires you to belive that there is an active conspiracy between the PRG, the Clinton administration, senior Pentagon civilian leadership -both Republican and Democrat and hundreds of officers and Generals. If you google search you will see that on these same web sites also exit attacks on Kerry.



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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I respect you grantcart...
I enjoyed your level-headedness through the primaries and always find you have something salient to offer in these DU conversations.

But i really think you need to view this video. The people interviewed really think McCain is a traitor and has been very wrong on these POW/MIA issues. They make no mention of Clinton other than saying "government bureaucrats" a few times.

How many people actually know McCain torpedoed legislation than passed the House 401-0?
How many people know he nearly singlehandedly classified all documents relating to POWs?
How many people know McCain made over 30 "propaganda" tapes for the enemy while he was a POW?
How many people know that McCain was treated differently and separated from other POWs?

Remember that this is THEIR side bringing these things up in the video....


:shrug:

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aldo Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. This is the great sleeper issue of the times
Kerry made his own bed, now he has to sleep in it. We can't avoid exploring this issue just to protect Kerry and other Democrats. Read Schanberg.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2004-02-17/news/when-john-kerry-s-courage-went-m-i-a/1
http://www.villagevoice.com/2004-02-17/news/did-america-abandon-vietnam-war-p-o-w-s-part-1/1
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I believe John Kerry far more than I believe Shandberg
I read that stuff in 2004, and it's like the garbage he wrote on McCain - the dfifference is that he couldn't even come up with a reason.

I also watched the CSPAN account that was a few hours long of a trip by Kerry, Bob Smith and another Senator showing what they were doing. The fact is Kerry made 14 trips there. In the CsPAN documentary, Smith spoke of how hard it was for him toi be there and that he couldn't imagine how Kerry dealt with it.

You can believe what ever you want to believe but the fact of the matter is that it not true and the villains are the conmen like Shapley. You might be interested to know that there is a much lower missing soldier rate in Vietnam as opposed to Korea or WWII.

You tell me why Kerry would at virtually the same time fight like hell to continue the BCCI investigation against the wishes of everyone in the power elite, Republican and Democrat and cover this up. This is the man who spoke of the Contra's running drugs and arms. He is also the Senator who has been the top advocate for veterans in the Senate - even when he spoke to the Senate in 1971 he demanded better treatment of the veterans. he was on Nixon's enemies list and had many dirty tricks played by the Nixon people on him.

Then tell me why Vietnam would want to hold men for over three decades - paying to guard, shelter and feed them. Then not to even try to use them as a bargaining chip.

But go ahead be a jerk - there's likely plenty of room for you in the SBVT. Why don't you join?

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Because it is not true
The people behind this charge in the early 1990s were people like Shapley - and they were on teh SBVT level.
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gademocrat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. k & r
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. The Songbird
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. I suggest everyone watch this.
Recommended.

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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kick...n/t
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. We need a 527 to hit him hard. nt
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. This is tailor made for a 527 to pick up and run with ... no editing required! n/t
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SuperTrouper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Send it to Drudge, maybe that RW tool will "discover" the real McCain
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. I watched a few of those videos..
but that one first. I don't blame him for what he did as a POW..maybe that's why he supports torture. He knows how it works. It's everything else he's done that is disgusting and shows what a self-righteous, arrogant, scum-sucking parasite he is.
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Dinosaur13 Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
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notsoaveragejoe Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wow, just wow
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is delicious karmic justice for what the wingnuts did to Kerry in 2004.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Except, they are as unfair used against Mccain as the SBVT were to Kerry
I do get what you say - McCain really should have stood against the liars and the purple heart bandaids. I actually think that when he spoke at the RNC without commenting on the bandaids that that is when he lost his soul.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Of course you are right, but it assauges my disgust at what they did to Kerry.
Rove went right at Kerry's strength and peddled his AWOL buddy.

It was probably the most spectacularly morally bankrupt move in politics to date. :mad:
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. and you know that I share that opinion on Rove,
I am so glad that Kerry has been able to be such a strong defender of Obama.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. These charges are false
This was a heated issue in the early 1990s. That committee was formed to do their best to find the truth.

The effort to determine if POWs was held was led by John Kerry and almost every Vietnam vet in the Senate was on the committee. They all signed off on the final report - including Bob Smith, the extremely conservative Senator who came in as the clear proponent of the believe that people were left behind. This was considered a thankless task, a demanding task, and for many of these vets an emotionally draining task. I doubt Kerry was alone in having his entire staff advise him not to accept placement on the committtee.

Kerry had Nixon administration people testify before the committee and even had questions submitted to Nixon. With his history, both in supporting veterans and having been personally targeted by Nixon, he had no reason to let them off the hook. In addition, Kerry gave Smith, who was the ranking member (not McCain, who thought it politically risky) half the staff of the committee - in stead of having more staff himself.

Kerry negotiated the ability of the Senate team and the investigators to go anywhere with no notice. CSPAN had a long (several hours) video replayed sometime last year that showed one trip over there by Kerry, Bob Smith and another Senator. The impression I got was how immense the job was. They had taken the reports of any sightings and mapped them and concentrated on those areas. (Later the investigators looked into each individual account and did there best to determine the circumstances.) All the committee members made trips to Vietnam. Kerry made 14, some to areas he was in. Bob Smith, at one point in the CSPAN footage, speaking of how hard this was for him spoke of how tough this had to be for Kerry. For all of them, this was a difficult, grueling effort that was always seen as a no win situation. (Kerry's entire staff was said to have wanted him not to accept the committee assignment, much less the chairmanship. It was Kerry's managerial skill that designed a process that the others agreed with and his diplomatic skills that kept the committee fights from destroying the effort.

Kerry also pushed the Vietnamese and neighboring countries to undertake a more concerted effort to repatriate remains. This effort was later included in the treaty. At this point, a MUCH lower percent of Americans unaccounted for exists from the Vietnam War than from the Korean War and WWII.

So, why do these stories exist. The reason that committee started was a Newsweek cover that purported to show three POWs still in captivity. The committee debunked this ultimately showing the picture was a fraud, they were not American and it was not Vietnam. What there was were various conscienceless people who raised money from the families and friends of the missing soldiers - saying they would do the investigation the country didn't do. Shapley was one of the most prominent of these and he verbally attacked McCain at many of these hearings - to the point where he was ordered thrown out by Kerry. The committee proved many of these people were con men and that they had actually done nothing other than raise money.

In addition to the conmen were the conned. Some were people who had lost people and who, not only never had the cloture that a body would provide, but had people holding out hope that they were still alive. Then throw in people on both the far left and the far right who are intensely suspicious of the government.

Now, take it a step forward, what is the gain to Vietnam to keep these men for what is now more than 3 decades after the war. During that time, they would need to pay guards and costs of shelter. In addition, as it is secret, they can't be put to work in the country and they can't be used as a bargaining chip. The committee checked every large building in the areas where there were rumours and they interacted with people in the area to learn what they knew - knowing they might not get the full truth.

In the CSPAN video tape, you have the Senators, especially Kerry speaking (through a US interpretor) with citizens everywhere - often with not Vietnamese officials. In a very cute segment, Kerry had a large group of little kids following him. At the beginning, he pointed to an animal and said a name and the kids corrected his pronunciation. Both the kids and Kerry were laughing. Later, he asked if they had seen Americans like him and they hadn't. (Seeing this reminded me of how my kids (then 6,8 and 11) were asked if they knew Hebrew by El AL when we flew out of NYC on a trip that was to Eqypt, where my sister was living and Israel. The 8 year old said yes, so they switched to Hebrew, and she stammered she only knew things like (Jewish prayers). That guy then came over spoke to our questioner and the tone changed immensely - they knew from the innocent 8 year old that we were a Jewish family with kids. In this case, if there were Americans - a kid might have blurted it out - especially to the Senator, who they were fascinated by.

In addition, you need to find a reason why not just McCain, but all the members of that committee could either be conned by the Vietnamese or lying on purpose. I seriously doubt either Kerrey, who spoke of hating Nixon, or Kerry would have any interest in covering up for Nixon. (Kerry was still pushing the real time investigation of BCCI, which was showing a huge amount of corruption from both Democrats and Republicans. That investigation was hard to understand, where the POW one wasn't. Kerry had also exposed the (then) ongoing gun and drug running to illegally support the Contras. So, you can't claim he didn't have the guts to expose something as awful as Americans spending over 2 decades in captivity.)
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