No or Yes to a Bail Out?

[FrenchieCat]

And is it a trick orchestrated to try to make McCain into a Maverick that breaks against the Bush Regime.

The timing seems "convenient".

What say you?

[begin_within]

1. They should create a government bank to keep credit moving

[FrenchieCat]

2. How long would that take? and isn't that going to be seen as

MORE BUREAUCRACY? :shrug:

[begin_within]

7. and as Socialism

[Mojambo]

3. Let the shadow banking system fail. n/t

[avaistheone1]

13. Most definitely. Instead create a government run bank with sound regulations with the 700 billion

dollars. It would keep credit moving for credit worthy individuals that troubled financial institutions will not lend to for homes, autos, school loans and businesses?

The big threat Paulsen says is that credit is not moving.

[HughMoran]

4. I don't know the answer, but this is no Rovian trick

Causing the Republicans to be voted out as socialists can't be part of the plan - lol!

[FreakinDJ]

5. Its a SCAM - I'm writing my Senators Feinstien and Boxer

I'll NEVER forgive them for a Yes Vote

[amborin]

6. the Swedish version is far preferable, it gives citizens the chance to make money

the current proposed US version denies citizens the right to make any money if conditions improve

<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23krona.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=bailout%20and%20sweden&st=cse&oref=slogin>

[redstate_democrat]

10. I thought the Dodd version gives taxpayers a chance to make money

I just read it and it's a solid bill. But Bush would NEVER sign it as is. This is the trick. The Republicans are gonna try to kill it down and casts Democrats as the bad guys. BOTH parties must sign on to it, before the actual vote, before I would say it's okay. That means McCain has to fly his BS express to D.C. and actually earn his fucking paycheck this year.

[bluecatz]

8. If I lose my wallet tomorrow, the governmenet won't bail me out

Let companies that have squandered their money learn their lesson, and their greedy CEO's with them.

[abumbyanyothername]

9. Just no.

Rove isn't behind everything that won't work in the world.

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. the idea that this is a "Rovian trick" is simply put BATSHIT CRAZY!!

As a lifelong Democratic-Socialist and someone of the left, I am personally embarrassed to find the same kind of utterly nutty and irrational conspiracy theory thinking here on DU, that one finds all the time on right-wing extremist websites.

Frankly I and many other people of the left were predicting this collapse ever since deregulation and so-called "free market" economics become the dominant American policy, frequently with the support of many prominent Democrats.

What is happening is the natural consequences of rabid, deregulated -out of control market forces - the natural results of the transition in the Western world from a somewhat regulated production based economy to a deregulated, speculation based economy financed by rabid lending and borrowing.

There was a time when all respectable stock brokers advised their clients to carefully study their potential investments and cautiously buy on a gradual bases - and not to pay too much attention to normal fluctuations of market values - but through gradual cautious investment and holding on to their investments - a healthy nest egg would be accumulated over a period of decades.

There was time in which people bought houses for a place to live. Or if real estate was purchased for investment purposes, it was based like stocks on gradual cautious investment

Then this approach to solid conservative investing was replaced by a "business ethic" that demanded enormous returns - and investment took on the ethos of a Las Vegas casino on the high-rollers floor.

Why on earth would the Republicans deliberately make a maneuver that completely discredits, unregulated "free market" orthodoxy for the next generation? An orthodoxy they have preaching for several decades -

The only shock about the timing - is that the timing is playing out in a way that plays to the benefit of Democrats. It is beyond ludicrous to suggest that the Republicans would intentionally sabotage their own party's chances in the upcoming election and massively discredit their own party's ideological orthodoxy.

Of course there has to be a bailout that will undoubtedly cost hundreds of billions of dollars, unless one is prepared to accept a very strong probability of a 1930's level depression. All sane and rational people know this!

Could a depression still happen anyway? Yes, but this buys some time that hopefully might allow the markets to stabilize,

Of course Democrats and other progressives ABSOLUTELY MUST be fighting to insure that the bailout protects ordinary homeowners and establishes permanent new controls over the markets and penalizes rather than rewards the culprits.

And most importantly Democrats must now completely and forever reject the crackpot economics that caused this mess and NEVER, NEVER, NEVER AGAIN ALLOW ANY QUARTER WHATSOEVER for the ideological lunacy of speculation based, unregulated "free market" capitalism.

[FrenchieCat]

12. The timing is suspicious......

and the Republicans are not in favor of voting for it.

Alabama R Senator wouldn't commit to voting for it.

Why is that?

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. on ideological principles - the Republicans should reject it.

As Milton Friedman said, "corruption is the interference of government in the hand of market forces".

However, the most pro-deregulation government, pro-privatization government in the history of the United States - has just nationalized two of America's largest banks and the world's largest insurance carrier.

The Bush Administration has simply found itself in the situation in which the whole world is watching their ideology collapse - and they are desperate. They are acting like the proverbial atheist in a foxhole. The are panicking - because the markets are collapsing due in large in part to the ideology they have spent a life time preaching.

All evidence indicates that this economic meltdown will discredit their ideology for at least a generation, and will probably certify their defeat this November. I find it inconceivable that they would try to engineer their own defeat and discredit their own ideological foundation, perhaps forever.

[vaberella]

19. Of course the timing is suspicious but this was bound to happen.

I've been hearing of this situation for 2 years now. The reason that it's now is because this is one of the quarter times for Banks to start listing their profits, so they know how many people they should hire and when they hire and for what. Most of that comes through at the end of August, I know because I worked for the largest bank in NYC. This is like their second quarter. When things get heated they normally start doing their budgetary dealings around now and start listing. They come up short and they fuck up the market.


This time is suspicious but not so much when looking at banks and mortgage corporations and the like. This is the right time. Further more this doesn't benefit the repubs in any way. Or the REpub candidate who is for the bail out, the firing of the SEC and heavy regulations while his cronies are AGAINST the bail out, not firing the SEC and still anti heavy regs since a lot of them still think the market fixes themselves.


Currently the person hurting the most, politically, taking into consideration his plans for SS and Healthcare is McCain while Obama is being praised. Suspicion gets killed off when one gathers up the evidence.

[iamthebandfanman]

16. tis true

the tech boom in the 90s just delayed the disaster...

just remember tho, if we had that surplus and no war in iraq... things might not be AS bad.

also, a big hey there to a fellow self identified democratic socialist ;)

[Douglas Carpenter]

35. I would have to agree with you as well

Much has been said about how the U.S. and the West has moved from an industrial economy to a service economy. But equally or more importantly is how the U.S. and the West has moved from a production based economy to a speculation based economy.

It is quite clear that after the dotcom bubble busted - a great deal of speculative money moved from tech stocks to real estate investment - thus vastly inflating real estate prices in large parts of America to the level of the completely unreal and unsustainable - financed by rabid and frequently outrageous lending and borrowing.

The collapse of the real estate market is a far greater problem than a simple collapse of the dotcoms - since real estate is the backbone of not only the securities of most of the banking institutions - real estate represents the life's work and primary investment for a very large part of ordinary people. What complicates it further - is the simple reality that the real estate market has to collapse - with out-of control speculation pushing prices outside the world of reality - housing becomes becomes unaffordable for the next generation and much of the current younger generations of Americans - Furthermore, just as conservatives complain that extremely high taxes make commerce, especially small entrepreneurial commerce, non-viable - out of control property cost makes entrepreneurial capitalism non-viable. Imagine the albatross of running a corner shop in Northern California - where the property value of a commerical shop on a commercial street would sell for millions - and rents would run for hundreds of thousands per year.

It is interesting that commodities have arisen among get-rich-quick speculators as a new "investment" of choice. Speculating on the international rice market already created a panic earlier this year. I heard one BBC economic analyst refer to oil as "new safe haven" investment. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to foresee what will happen if we continue to see the commodities markets acting the way the dotcoms and real estate market acted.

[Mojorabbit]

31. I agree

I think they really really tried to keep it from imploding on their watch. I think they drew up the plan just in case they couldn't kick it down the road to the next administration. Russia is having to shore up their banks. England is pumping money into their banks and their housing market is imploding. China's papers are warning that they need to pump up a domestic market for their goods as ours is imploding.

They waited too long to do anything and now it is too late. I don't think the bailout will work even with a gazillion add ons for main street but I think we need to at least drag out every concession we can from them before it is passed anyway.

[eauclaireliberal]

14. Im sick of this Reganomics shit

Does it ever end? No, W is here to care for the corporatists, just Uncle Ronnie.

These sick SOB's are quick to save them but as for the taxpayers, we are screwed-as always.

I am beginning to think that workers in India have the right idea.

[vaberella]

15. Please specify = In what capacity, FrenchieCat?

I'm for bail out with provisions. I realize that the bail out is necessary. Eventually there will be collapse, but this will cover that impending doom currently. I've been wanting to know what would happen if we don't bail them out----but no answer. Only Paulson/Bernanke know the true likelihoods and extent of possible disaster without bail out. I want to know...but they're not telling us.

I'm not ready to give them everything. But some things. Even the repubs they claim who are not bought by Wallstreet want bailout. You and I know that's bullshit. They want bail out because they have stocks and some probably have insurance claims with AIG. They want to take a stand but they're crappers. That's why none of those Repubs who don't want a bail out besides McCain, are on television; I think people are over stating their positions.


Bail out with strict adhered provisions and I'm game. The CEO's should not be off the hook.

[FrenchieCat]

29. Heck!

I don't know. :shrug:

[mzmolly]

18. Not without their Presidential nominee signing on.

:hi:

[GrizzlyMan]

20. I don't think it's a trap

To be a trap, one side would have to be able to predict the outcome. I don't think that is the case here. What I see on the Hill are a bunch of folks who really don't know what to do. Call it a quiet, almost subtle, panic. If the Repugs were springing some kind of trap, by every reasonable expectation it is just as likely to blow up in their collective faces. They don't do it that way. When they set a trap, they know what the outcome is and the target's actions are a mere formality.

[Heather MC]

21. The only way Wall Street and Main Street will learn is to let them fall, and fall hard

Yes I am a homeowner, I have investments, Kids college plans I am biting my nails about
but I think throwing 700 billon bucks at this with out really knowing the full scale problem is an even bigger mistake. If we have 700 billon to give out. let the banks fall, and then take that 700 billon and create a bank or program or whatever that helps the american voter Recover
not help one or 10 CEO's walk away with Millons
that's the Fishy part, they don't want to put a cap on the compensation package for CEO who run the company into the ground

[TheDonkey]

22. Democrats need to fight fight fight this bailout and make sure that it protects Americans

all the while blasting Bush and McClown for getting us here.

[curious one]

23. This is a scam.

[truthisfreedom]

24. Stall the vote until after the election. Deal with the failures as they happen until that time.

[Cali_Democrat]

25. Bush can take his bail out and shove it up his ass

[fujiyama]

26. Not just no but FUCK NO!

This is literally highway robbery with no accountability whatsoever.

Obama would be a fool to give McCain the opportunity to distance himself from Bush. And it would kind of remind many of his pathetic vote on FISA. I'm tired of meaningless compromises on BAD legislation - which often times is worse than nothing at all.

[democracy1st]

27. This is larger than Rove this is designed to totally bankrupt the system

and in turn giving corporations more control

[some guy]

28. no,l but skip the rove paranoia. n/t

[Imagevision]

30. No oversight - no regulation - no bailout...! Kiddin!

[TheKentuckian]

32. The bill can be passed in such a way to give little

wiggle room for the scam we all fear, unless everyone is in on it. If that's the case the trillion bucks doesn't mean squat anyway.

Bush might not sign it but a real bill can be passed that can help the situation.

[demwing]

33. If there's a bailout, then let there be a real bailout

And enact a "Credit Mulligan" to everyone with below average credit. Give them a one-time complete scrub of their Credit and FICA scores, and wipe their debt,

Make people apply for it, but instantly approve any low credit - high debt applicants. Cap the application process with a three month time limit, and let em rip.

After all, if we're going to remove accountability from the markets, lets really do the job right.

[mwooldri]

34. No. Even Wall St Analysts are saying that the bailout will do little good.

My earlier post reporting a Reuters article about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4072467&mesg_id=4072467

[Willo]

36. NO BAILOUT MONEY

There is nothing, not one thing that makes sense about this.

It's a hold-up and a hostage situation. "GIVE ME ALL YOUR MONEY OR EVERYBODY DIES!" Then they shoot everybody anyway.

This is so ridiculous. This is not a bailout, it's a heist.

Not one thin dime, I say.

[ieoeja]

37. I see Laissez-Faire economics dominating DU right now.

We need another poll.

"Why have DUers embraced Laissez-Faire politics?"

"1. Because someone forced Bush to endorse a Liberal/Progressive economics plan in response to this crisis, and I will vote anti-Bush even if it means voting against everything I believe in."

"2. I am an economic Libertarian who opposes Liberal/Progressive economics."

"3. An economic depression will help us win. If poverty and starvation helps us win, then I say go for it!"

"4. Revolution baby! It's got to get worse, before it gets better. Vote Green Party!"