Todays DU GDP talking point, "Bill Clinton is stumping for McCain."

[joshcryer]

Yeah, that's it. Bill Clinton points out the obvious in an interview, and is called on this.

[Lucky 13]

1. Bill Clinton is defending McCain's push to delay the debates!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/bill-clinton-do.html

That is complete and fucking bullshit.

[joshcryer]

5. He's not defending shit.

His wording isn't strong and he's pointing out a political issue. You can't claim that McCain is "running away" necessarily because then you must admit he wanted a series of Town Hall debates.

[BeyondGeography]

37. He was for the debates before he was against them

Might have been a better way to put it. Too partisan for our Bill, though. Remember, he didn't throw a single partisan punch the whole primary season.

That's another way of saying wake the fuck up.

[Lucky 13]

68. Why'd he have to bring that up? Does that help our cause or the point we're trying to make?

That's the thing about Bill.. he always has to throw in a line that the apologists can say, "What? Why are you hating on Clinton? What he said is true!"

Maybe so, but it's not HELPING us. I haven't seen him do anything to HELP us since his speech at the convention. Just do interview after interview where he can barely bring himself to choke out Obama's name while effusively praising McCain and Palin.

Ask yourself this... is that what YOU would have said if interviewed? Not if you are for Obama you wouldn't.

[gauguin57]

19. You are right. Complete and fucking bullshit.

Absolutely.

[SoonerPride]

2. The obvious? To whom?

McSame isn't afraid?

Really?

He looks petrified to me.

[joshcryer]

7. He doesn't *say explicitly* that McCain isn't "running away." He says not to presume that.

This is political wording for "claiming he's running away is a political non-starter because he'll just come back with 'I wanted a series of Town Hall debates!'"

You'll note that Obama's camp *is not saying McCain is running away.*

This is indisputable!

[polmaven]

14. OK, what's up with this LOGIC stuff?

Whaddya trying to do? Spoil all the fun of trashing Bill Clinton for another day? Please STOP injecting LOGIC into everything!

[VeraAgnes]

3. Stop it.

[mcctatas]

4. Even if I thought the big dog was in the tank for the crypt keeper

don't we have more important issues??? :wtf: is wrong with people....

[Window]

11. No shit.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. If Bill Clinton thinks suspending the debates is a good move, he's about the only one.

Every poll I've seen, folks think it's lame at best, crass opportunism at worst.

[joshcryer]

8. Um, he actually implied the opposite. He said it would only be good if mutual.

And we know it is not mutual, so we know what he's saying in his neutral political language.

[BeyondGeography]

39. You mean the same language he used during primary season?

Or does the reefer give you short-term memory loss?

[joshcryer]

41. I really should change that icon, it distracts people from having reasoned debate.

Yes the same language he used during the primary season. Note how the media took his outbursts, played it over and over again.

I do wish for once he'd fucking pull out all the punches just so I could call you guys on the hypocracy when the media started with their bullshit. "Bill Clinton being too hard on POW McCain?"

[BeyondGeography]

44. "Outbursts"? Can he have just one of those against McCain?

Here, refresh your memory. Come back when he says anything remotely as critical of McCain as he did about Obama:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/12/bill_clinton_rips_obama_in_cha.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLDx4NZr2u4

[Uncle Joe]

42. But that assumption is not true and Bill Clinton should know it.

"Appearing on Good Morning America Thursday, Clinton told ABC News' Chris Cuomo that McCain's push to postpone the debate would only be a good political move if both candidates agreed. McCain announced on Wednesday that he would "suspend" his presidential campaign to come to Washington to help negotiate a financial bailout bil."

1. The corporate media is still the predominant writer of the script, even taking in to account the Internet's growing influence. In spite of the criticism you may be hearing now, I have no doubt many in the corporate media will flip on a dime and later praise McCain for his supposed "leadership".

2. The corporate media's clients are corporations, the people are only customers to be sold a product or down the river.

3. Some in the corporate media see the handwriting on the wall now, knowing the people's initial reaction or emotion to McCain running from a debate is anger, so they criticize McCain.

4. After the bailout vote, the dysfunctions in the economy will be masked for a short period of time, November isn't far off. At that point, many in the corporate media that are criticizing him now will conveniently forget McCain abandoning the people's or customer's best interest by running from a crucial debate needed for their most critical of deliberations and they will begin to praise the rooster for causing the sun to rise on the corporations, aka; their client.

5. If Obama takes up Bob Barr's offer to debate him, they will mostly spar against one another, so McSame is elevated by default. If Obama turns Barr down, this will used by the Republicans to dampen his argument, that debates are important.

6. There is only one scenario, I see where Obama gains politically on McSame, that being if he does debate Barr, and they have a high road, amicable debate, where they both come off as Presidential. I believe the chance of this happening to be a long shot, as the Commission would have to approve it and Obama would have to trust Barr in sticking to the high road as Obama has more to lose. But even then I imagine the corporate media will try to nitpick whatever they can find.

[joshcryer]

43. McCain is not missing the debates.

To think he will is proposterous. I'd bet hard money on that one.

[Uncle Joe]

61. The point of my post still holds true. n/t

[fascisthunter]

9. It Always Appears That a DLCer will Always Come to The GOP's Rescue

it never fails.... are we all on the same side, or what?

[MBS]

10. For whatever it's worth, conservative Obama supporter Andrew Sullivan

has said the same. See "Bill Clinton now openly spinning for McCain"
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/bill-clinton-no.html

[joshcryer]

12. Yeah, that's the blogosphere talking point today, too.

Basically that's todays spin. It takes some neutral statements by Bill Clinton and basically uses them against us. This is what you people get.

[SurfingAtWork]

20. For what its worth, I browsed Free republic and they precieve that Bill is intentionally

Helping McCain as well. "He is choosing country over party" they say. Many of them are applauding him. I was going to paste some of the comments to drive home the point, but decided it would be bad use of bandwidth.

[joshcryer]

23. That's the point, we've dropped to the level of freepers.

Good, respectable forumgoers here have the rationality of freepers. Think about that for a minute here.

[SurfingAtWork]

33. I'm not sure I agree. It could be that two groups of people with polar oposite

political points of view are looking at the same things and reaching the same conclusions. I have called people out numerous times the past month for anti-clinton stuff, as I have seen it as nothing but unhelpful.. and I guess it still is, still though it is getting harder and harder to watch him say and do the things he is these past couple of days. I look forward to him winning me back over when he is on the stump for Obama, after he gets finished observing the Jewish holidays.

[joshcryer]

36. The reason it's the same thing is that the information is not coming from within;

...what is happening is that people are being compelled to see something others are seeing, and mob mentality kicks in. Rather than think rationally about a given scenario, people just jump to the most absurd conclusion imaginable, to be part of the flow.

Think about it, what would Clinton gain by sabotaging Obama's campaign?

[maxrandb]

55. Thank God I'm a DU'er and not a Freaker

Those people are reduced to using Bill Clinton...Evil, Immoral, Terrorist Supporting, Raping, Pillaging and Murderous Bill Clinton to somehow convince themselves that their morally bankrupt party and philosophy isn't going to be discarded to the ash-heap of history this November???

Could you imagine any DU'er being so devoid of principals that we would sight something George Bush said to somehow say "he's on our side"???

[yorkie]

13. Bill's awful behavior

He really is just awful-and I used to be a fan. Maybe what they say about the heart surgery and medications is right..
But if you think about it-he never was that helpful to Hillary either. Maybe he just does not want anyone to be liked more than he was-and he's worried about Obama's popularity. He never would have to worry about competing with McCain.

[DevonRex]

15. Sorry, but it's NOT obvious that McCain doesn't want to debate.

Fail.

[joshcryer]

16. It's obvious what McCain will say if you claim he doesn't want to debate.

Show me the Obama camp claiming he doesn't want to debate.

Since it's not happening, think about why.

No, really, think critically about why the Obama camp doesn't say that.

It's not that it's not true, it's that politics can bite you in the ass, which is why it's not being said.

[DevonRex]

17. What is obvious is that Bill is spinning for McCain by saying that

it's clear that McCain is NOT afraid to debate since he asked for some town hall meetings.

If McCain wants to spin, let him do it. It is simply unacceptable for Bill to help him do it.

Frankly, I don't expect Bill to come out strongly for Obama. It's way to late in the game to think that will happen. But I DO expect Bill not to help McCain. And nobody on earth thinks Bill is stupid enough to do it unknowingly.

[joshcryer]

26. Then where is the Obama campaign saying McCain is afraid?

Honestly. You know Bill is right. He's just interjecting a political point. He shouldn't be, he should just say "no comment" or some shit. But he's Bill, he's not going to do that. He loves this shit, thinking about the political back and forth.

[DevonRex]

52. That's the point. For Bill it's always ABOUT Bill. And there have

been several dems who have weighed in on McCain stalling on the debate. I liked John Kerry's comments the best.

As far as fear, even Bob Schieffer (sp) on CBS says they're afraid to have Palin debate yet, so they're trying to put that off by putting off the presidential debate. Whether it's fear for McCain himself (which I think is likely) or it's fear of Palin being really awful (which I think is a no-brainer) there IS fear involved.

Obama doesn't have to say anything about fear. He remains above the fray and is ready and willing to debate and is capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. His actions show the contrast between the two, without having to say anything about McCain. What Obama does NOT need is for Bill to go around spinning for McCain, thus lessening that contrast. Bill is a political animal. He knows what to say and how to say it to achieve his goals. Like any other human on earth, he has the ability to shut his mouth when necessary.

I'm not cutting him any slack from yesterday forward. I had, until his appearance on Letterman. When speaking to a liberal audience on The Daily Show, Bill was pretty good. When speaking to an audience made up of folks whose minds we would like to change and whose votes we need to get, Bill defended McCain. That's 3 separate times now in the past 3 days that he has done this.

Personally, I'd like to forget about Bill altogether unless he helps us win the White House. I don't think he is obligated to help Obama. I do think he is obligated, simply by virtue of being a democrat, not to hurt Obama's chances. And I believe that in the aggregate, his appearances on TV the last few days may hurt our chances in the GE.

I voted for Bill twice and I always defended him. I will always have a soft spot for him and Hillary on a personal level. But this is a serious business, getting rid of republican rule. Four more years of an idiot in the WH might just bankrupt us all, ensure the loss of several of our rights, and involve us in more war, death and destruction. Anyone who doesn't actually help us elect the democrat should sit down and shut up.

[joshcryer]

54. Let me leave this thread with one final thought: When Oct comes around Bill will come out.

He will come out with all the fire that everyone here on these forums is begging for. It'll be completely insane, people will be falling all over him just like they did when he gave his convention speech.

And then the hypocrasy, and the concern, and the irrationality will show its ugly face.

[DevonRex]

58. I pray that you are correct and that I am wrong. I loved his

convention speech. He has the ability to do wonderful things and if he does them, I will admit I was wrong. Although you might have to remind me. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. Today's joshcryer talking point

I HEART HILLARY 4-EVAH!!!!

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

21. Nope, I just respect good people, and think people on forums love to talk shit...

...just for the sake of it. We know that thousands of threads here were committed to the whole "brokered convention" bullshit (indeed I contributed to a lot of it, trying to bring sanity to the forums).

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. 4-EVAAAAAAHHHHHH!

[joshcryer]

27. What a childish and pathetic non-contribution to the forums.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. 4-EVAAAAAAHHHHHH!

BILL AND HILLARY!!!!!!!

YAY TEAM!!!!

[joshcryer]

46. Anyway, I got to go. Watch and see my prediction come true. All day long these threads will be made.

There will still be dozens of these threads when I sign back in tonight.

Bank on it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. 4-EVAAAAAAHHHHHH!

:rofl:

[Catherine Vincent]

22. The Clinton-trashers never disappoint. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Todays people's who have the political instincts of a retarded badger talking point:

"Bill Clinton is a great man and he's only doing this to us because he loves us."

[joshcryer]

28. Oh yeah because the opposite of that is clearly the case.

He wants to sabatoge Obama while spending copious amounts of time stumping for him and earning money for the campaign! That's the more rational viewpoint, right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Bill Clinton does what's best for Bill Clinton.

The guy's a multi-millionaire. Not unlike the Countess de Rothschild.

I wonder what his real stance is on taxes for the rich.

And then there's the booze.

[joshcryer]

32. I won't dispute that.

In fact it's more evidence that Bill Clinton isn't *really* "backing" McCain. It's in his interests to get Obama elected.

[LisaM]

45. Obama is a multi-millionaire too.

I fail to see your point.

What time this morning did the anti-Clinton talking points get sent out? It's always, ALWAYS, a concerted effort.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Yes, but he favors taxes for the rich.

:shrug:

"It's always, ALWAYS, a concerted effort."

Yes, it always happens after Clinton stumps for McCain. Must be some sort of conspiracy!

[LisaM]

59. Bill Clinton favors higher taxes for the rich, too

But thanks for playing "Let's Pile on the Clintons Even Though Bashing Hillary is Against DU Rules" today.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Well then he better start acting like it.

And stop stumping for McCain.

[LisaM]

62. Well, you can continue to buy that lie. Feel free.

In the meantime, here's a little history lesson:

~snip

For the first time when America was in a war footing in our whole history, they gave two huge tax cuts, nearly half of which went to the top 1 percent of us.

Now, I'm in that group for the first time in my life.

And you might remember that when I was in office, on occasion, the Republicans were kind of mean to me.

But as soon as I got out and made money, I became part of the most important group in the world to them. It was amazing. I never thought I'd be so well cared for by the president and the Republicans in Congress. I almost sent them a thank you note for my tax cuts until I realized that the rest of you were paying the bill for it. And then I thought better of it.

Now look at the choices they made, choices they believed in. They chose to protect my tax cut at all costs while withholding promised funding to the Leave No Child Behind Act, leaving 2.1 million children behind.

~snip

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/26/politics/main632008.shtml


See, here's the thing. If you tell one actual lie about Bill Clinton, which you have, then the rest of your accusations are hardly going to hold water.

I'm actually not Bill Clinton's biggest fan. I'm far to the left of him (and of Hillary, and of Obama and Biden, too). But sit here while people fling out false accusastions I will not.

[joshcryer]

64. Same here.

(Left of Obama, Hillary, etc.) Love your sig line, btw. :hi:

[LisaM]

65. Thanks. I found it on a t-shirt that I bought in Vancouver, BC

at a bookstore called "Women in Print" - all titles by women. I don't know if it's still there, but it was a great little store.

[geek tragedy]

35. Copious time stumping for him?

When does that start happening?

[joshcryer]

40. He said it on Larry King Live.

After Yom Kipper he will be going to "Ohio, to northeast Pennsylvania, and to Nevada, at a minimum."

When it'll really fucking count.

[dionysus]

50. when did he do that, i missed it...

[bridgit]

31. That's a daily 'parking lot' topic...

It just gets dragged in here when the cold coffee & stale donuts show up :thumbsup:

[KitchenWitch]

34. That dog don't hunt.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

38. then explain for me

why he's going out of his way to cover for McCain with the "he wanted more debates" spin.
Bill is providing McCain's stunt with political cover. Now they can say "even Democrats like Bill Clinton know I'm sincere."
(to get an idea how this works, take a look at past examples past examples "even Democrats like Zell Miller..." and "Even Democrats like Joe Lieberman..."
Bill's had nothing but good things to say about McLame and Caribou Barbie for the last week, going out of his way to praise them. He can barely bring himself to mention Obama's name, and , when he does, he has to tack it on to a "what Hillary would have done" story.
Name for me one republican who supposedly supports McCain, but goes on TV to say good things about the Obama while offering little, if any, praise for McCain.
You won't find one.
Bill's smart and savvy politician. He knows what he's doing.
He wants 2012 for Hillary. He wants back in the White House, and if he has to doom the country to 4 years of GOP rule while we're on ther verge of one of the worst economic crisis in history, he has no problem with it.
This is nothing new.
It's always about him first. That was triangulation: adopt the GOP agenda, legitimize it and who cares aboout Dems in Congress or across the country and any hope of a progressive agenda.

[Occam Bandage]

47. So, you think it's obvious that McCain's latest gimmick was done "in good faith?"

Huh. I don't think that's obvious at all.

[joshcryer]

48. He didn't say that. He said he 'presumed' that.

But the implication is clear.

I would love to see evidence of someone from the Obama camp, with approval, make a statement that it was *not* in good faith. That he *was* afraid.

I'd be shocked.

[Occam Bandage]

49. Do you also presume that it was done in good faith? I don't find such a view obvious at all.

[joshcryer]

53. No, it was a political stunt, 100%.

I would only presume that if I was in a position to make a strong statement about it, one that might reflect badly on the Obama campaign. Until the Obama campaign says otherwise that is the necessary presumption to make, as Bill pointed out with the potential backfire from making a statement like that.

[Occam Bandage]

56. Then he isn't stating the obvious. He's offering a defense.

You may claim that he's offering a defense because he doesn't want to go out on a limb and attack, but you and I both know that there are plenty of ways of phrasing his comment without offering a pro-McCain soundbyte *and* without offering an attack that Obama camp might not support.

A good answer would have been, "I don't want to speculate about his motives, but I can tell you that as President, you have to be able to handle more than one problem at a time." And if Clinton was serious about reinforcing and not undermining Obama's message, he would have said something like that.

[joshcryer]

63. Oh c'mon, you know you're better than that.

Bill Clinton doesn't do sound byte deflection, that's a Sarah Palin tactic. He'd never respond to a question like that.

[MasonJar]

66. According to a post on DU, Bill Clinton is going to be campaigning

for Barack, starting next week. So leave him alone. Quit overreaching on every single thing that he says.

[Lord Helmet]

67. Clinton is a petulant child.