Heartfelt greetings from a real conservative.

[0955Forrest]

I'm not going to meet many of you in an agreement on principles and our national character and philosophy but I'll stand next to all of you as Americans and I'll even crack a smile as I feel you rejoice at the end of the night.

I congratulate the Senator and his team for a "mostly IMHO" well run campaign.

Mostly though... no matter what the outcome I hope there is no violence, domestic disturbance or mischief.

There are a lot of problems to face on 11-5-2008 and drawing lines between ourselves is not the right way to start.

If Senator Obama emerges victorious, I'll be behind him from day one, as I'd be behind any US President... and I will personally be open minded and give him and his team a fair shake without judgement.

Please remember... beyond politics we're all neighbors. We all cheer for our kids at Soccer and walk our dogs after dinner. We all lead similar lives and only disagree once or twice every 4 years...

Let's all agree to agree that 11-5-2008 is a reawakening for the US... a fresh clean start.

ok?


jon

[0955Forrest]

1. oh

and now if my presence is unwanted... ban me.

[Merlot]

13. IMHO what you've written is very gracious and thoughtful

The people I've seen banned are the disruptors, the argumentative people who pretend to be something they're not.

[0955Forrest]

24. also

I'd like to add... the Republican party has betrayed it's basic principles. I'm a "Goldwater" style con... and Pappy and Junior style Republican-ism is disgusting.

Government is not suppose to be anyone's "nanny" nor should it be an abusive "daddy". You guys probably agree with 50% of that sentence, right?

[bigwillq]

27. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[yardwork]

28. I assume you voted for Obama, then?

Anyone who supports Democratic candidates is welcome on DU. Based on what you've said, there's no possible way that you voted for McCain and Palin, so of course you are welcome here.

[LynnTheDem]

34. I'm as liberal as it gets...and I agree 100% with that sentence.

And that is the problem I have with the rightwing.

[iamthebandfanman]

42. bush and co never cared about the party

only themselves.

they wont care about the party after they are outa office either.


theyve gotten what they wanted, and their pockets are full... now if they can just make the clean escape from scamming both the republican party and the entire american people.

[plaintiff]

46. Goldwater was a personal friend of mine and I voted for him...

but that was then and this is now. You and I are subject to extreme scrutiny here for merely admitting our history as you've no doubt noticed.
It doesn't make us less progressive, it just gives some people an excuse to exercise their self-administered superiority. :D

[Lochloosa]

123. Damn...you must be like...

really old:evilgrin:

[plaintiff]

190. You might be surprised how many DUers are sexygenerians.

:D

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I agree with more than 50% of that sentence- I just think it's fiscally AND morally responsible for

society to cover certain functions that might not be as well addressed by the free market; the question is, which functions- even most hard-core conservatives agree, for instance, that we need a military and most would agree that fire departments, roads and sewers are a community responsibility as opposed to an individual one. I happen to believe, for instance, that a Single Payer Health Care system would make the most sense from a financial standpoint; i.e. be cheaper for everyone in the long run- than our current system, which is strangled by the health insurance industry's overhead.

But there is no question that the Republican Party -as opposed to the Goldwater conservatism which you mention- has gone off the rails, and unless you're a rabid Christian Conservative who believes Jesus rode around on a Dinosaur, it doesn't have a whole lot to offer. Certainly not to truly libertarian minded folks of all persuasions, who don't understand why government needs to camp out in their bedrooms and bodies.

Anyway, welcome. Thanks for the perspective and the message of good will.

[carnie_sf]

60. Actually

I agree with 100% of it.

[StopTheNeoCons]

72. GREAT POST AND SENTIMENT, WE ALL NEED TO RALLY TO OUR COUNTRY'S AID!

[Duppers]

219. sniff sniff

nt

[progressivebydesign]

82. Actually, I agree with that 100%, as long as those who need help can get it.

More than anything, I'd love to see the day when the govt doesn't have to be a "nanny state", you know.. when people don't have to be legislated to do the right thing (like put their kids in car seats, and wear seatbelts.)

[AZBlue]

93. To me that's the most important part of your post.

Don't get me wrong - I very much admire the other parts. But I feel enough people don't realize that Bush & Co. do not speak for the real Republican party - far from it. And that's why I think that so many Republicans are voting for Obama this year (that and the fact that he's so fantastic, IMO). I may disagree with the traditional Republican party, but I have respect for them, unlike Bush & his cronies. Maybe it's because I come from a Republican background so I understand them more than others here, but I look forward to a time when the Republican party gets back on its feet and recaptures its values. The past 8 years have been brutal for all of us on both sides of the aisle, except for the few who were leading the charge.

Welcome to DU! :hi:
You'll find that with very few exceptions we're an open-minded bunch that doesn't necessarily always agree even with each other - I guess that's why we have to be open-minded, LOL.

[OneGrassRoot]

127. A heartfelt thank you and welcome....

truly. :hi:

[Caretha]

132. Actually, I agree 100%

we probably just disagree on how to make that come about. I appreciate your post. You are definitely the kind of Republican I wish made up the majority of your party.

[NJGeek]

138. welcome,and thank you

[Unbowed]

148. 50% is a meeting point.

If Obama becomes President of the United States, he will reach out to yourself and include Republicans like yourself in the plans for our country. In some areas, conservative ideas have to be considered. Government should never be too big, nor too small. It's conservative to be like Goldy Locks, and find what size is just right. Our country is bigger than it was in the days of small government so that model probably won't work. Neither do we want to grow government like Kudzu, spreading into all areas of our lives. We need to logically examine what size and direction government is best for our country.

We can all work together on that and all viewpoints are needed, IMHO.

Thank you.

[Indenturedebtor]

178. I agree with 100% of that. I would add that our government should help

people get back on their feet when they get knocked down... just like you would probably help your neighbor if they ran into trouble - we should be ready to help each other out.

As a Conservative I'm sure that you can appreciate that this view of mutual assistance is pretty much the same thing as what communities did for thousands of years. When a neighbor's house gets knocked down, you all get together and build him a new one. When a neighbor's crop fails, you give him some grain so he doesn't starve.

We're all in this together!

[Gabi Hayes]

185. ''nanny'' is pure, Rove/Luntz/Gingrich propaganda. care to use a word that has real meaning?

you reveal yourself in league with the worst of the monsters who've stolen what's left of our democracy with language like that

but, then, guilt by association is all that's left in the tank, isn't it?

[Richard Steele]

228. Exactly so, Gabi. Exactly so. nm

[Gabi Hayes]

230. this is PRECISELY how the monsters (I use that word purposefully) have 'won'

since Reagan....Nixon, really

call it marketing, propaganda, advertising, whatever you like. they have stripped language of its meaning in the service of power, causing those who don't/won't take a little time to look beneath the surface of the first words they absorb as consumers to accept most of what they hear, read, see, and follow along heedlessly to the most effective appeal to their weakest emotional defenses

seen this? I link it almost every day:



http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/bender2.html

Karl Rove & the Spectre of Freud’s Nephew
by Stephen Bender

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country… We are governed, our minds molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized… "

So opens Propaganda (1928), one of several strikingly frank analyses of western social psychology written by Edward Bernays. This nephew of Sigmund Freud founded the public relations industry in the United States.

Mr. Bernays lived a fascinating life. He first got involved in high stakes politics when he "warmed up" the dour Calvin Coolidge by arranging the first presidential celebrity photo op in 1928. For the private sector, Bernays engineered a most notorious publicity stunt for the American Tobacco Company, by single-handedly neutralizing the taboo against women smoking in public. He organized a "Torches of Freedom" march down Broadway by ten smoking debutantes during the 1929 Easter Parade. With the help of feminists – some of whom understood the "right to smoke" as libratory – Bernays expertly publicized this spectacle, thus setting in motion the expected stir on op-ed pages across the land.

For Bernays, truth in public affairs did not exist per se. Rather, truth was the product of the "public relations counsel" forging prevailing "public opinion." It should be said that he readily recognized the ethical implications of his work, as witnessed in his later anti-smoking advocacy, after the dangers of cigarettes became known in the late-1950s. He could also be, in his own curious way, a humanitarian – as reflected in his work promoting the NAACP and anti-syphilis public education.

For Bernays, however, the necessity of controlling the public mind was a crucially important matter confronting the better element, a group in which he clearly included himself. In his first work, the hugely influential Crystallizing Public Opinion (1923), Bernays noted that the establishment of public education and the gradual extension of the right to vote caused consternation among western elites. The use of public relations techniques, then, was a way for the minority to "so mold the mind of the masses that they will throw their newly gained strength in the desired direction."

[Richard Steele]

231. After eight years of grinding "Truth & Justice" into the mud...

...suddenly this "real Conservative" wants a "fresh start".

Now that a Democrat is poised to take control
of the Executive Branch, the cowardly little
shitheads who cheered every ghastly obscenity
perpetrated by the B*shCabal suddenly want us
to pretend that everything is normal again.

That "fresh start" line is just a BULLSHIT way of saying
"Please don't prosecute us for the crimes we've committed".
Dick Steele says: FUCK THAT NOISE>


I didn't fall for that "let bygones be byegones" crap
when it came from the schoolyard bully that my friends
and I backed into a corner back in 3rd Grade, and I'm
sure as hell not gonna fall for it now.

[surrealAmerican]

162. You don't get banned for civility here.

Your original post is spot-on. I hope everyone, from both sides, remembers that people who vote differently from us are not "the enemy".

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

2. Hear Hear, Very nice post, thanks.

We're all in this together.

[LynnTheDem]

3. Welcome! I suspect we have far more in common than not.

"Fair and open mind" is all anyone can ask of anyone ...and far more than many will give.

:hi:

[ogneopasno]

4. Your offers are welcome to me, and I, for one, welcome you in return.

"Come, let us reason together" certainly gets a lot more done than a lot of the alternatives people like to jump on.

[Danger Mouse]

5. if this is heartfelt, i thank you.

ideological differences aside, we are all americans.

[annabanana]

6. It's ok with me dear. I look forward to

the contest of Ideas as opposed to the contest of nonsense & baloney we are apt to see this time of the year. I am sorry that your party was hijacked by ideologues. I am also sorry that having self-identified yourself as "not one of us" will probably get you locked.
We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when

[progressivebydesign]

80. I hope he doesn't get locked or TS'd. There seems to be no harm or ill intent.

I would hope we don't go ban people just for having opposing views -- if they're playing well with others.

[annabanana]

128. agreed. . . . n/t

[Condem]

7. Welcome aboard, jon.

I look forward to a little action.

[amitten]

8. I really think Obama's aim is to unite this country.

We're going to let him.

[Motown_Johnny]

9. I walk my dogs as soon as I get home from work, before dinner.. See. we are different !!

[liberaltrucker]

10. Much more unites us than divides us

I, for one, welcome you to civil discourse.

:toast:

[Window]

11. A hearty welcome, and thank you.

:thumbsup:

[bridgit]

12. Agreed, plenty fair enough, thank you for posting, and so goes the union neighbor...

:)

[jefferson_dem]

14. Wonderful post.

:patriot:

Good on you, jon.

Nice to have you here.

[Jennicut]

15. Welcome to crazy DU. We are alot more tolerant then Freep-Land

My parents are total conservatives as well and I agree to disagree with them. They are still my parents and their conservative friends are like Aunts and Uncles to me which makes it hard...my brother and I don't agree with them on anything but we were raised by all of these people in our neighborhood. Its important to think of as people and let the hatred and ugliness go. I hope more Repubs understand that.

[Lisa0825]

16. Welcome to DU, Jon!

:pals:

I hope this will be a new beginning for civility between partisans. I sincerely hope so, because I am tired of feeling hated and feeling angry.

[Starry Messenger]

17. Hey Jon!

Welcome to DU!

[DearAbby]

18. Thank you for a well thought out Post

and welcome to DU.

[fizzgig]

19. you are spot on

and welcome

[143tbone]

20. I'm going to need some healing time first, then......

a whole bunch of answers to a whole bunch of questions. I applaud all who have graciously replied to your message so far but damn, it's been a tough 8 years.

[CANDO]

62. It's really been a tough 28+ years...

since Reaganomics was foisted upon us. Look back in our history and time and again when conservo-economics are employed it brings our nation to it's knees. I'm hoping Barack Obama and our Democratic congress will learn from history and re-regulate our capitalist system. Therein lies the problem I have with conservatives on economics. They worship at the altar of the free market, while I believe the market must abide by the ground rules as set by we the people. Our democracy trumps their free market.

[Indenturedebtor]

179. Yes Reaganomics HAS TO GO! This myth of a deregulated "fair" market

is a very very harmful one.

Socialism is actually the economic space between communism and economic anarchy... it's the Moderate approach to an economic structure, which is why most developed countries around the world are Democratic Socialisms. :shrug:

[lady raven]

21. Thank you

for your post, for your honesty, and for treating the members of this board with respect. Welcome to DU.

[Willo]

22. Agreed. Thank you for your words

and for reaching out.

[MadMaddie]

23. Welcome 0955Forrest !

We (collectivily) have a lot of work to do in this country and we are only going to be able to get it done if we do it together.

You are right 11-5-2008 is a reawakening for the US... a fresh clean start. To recapture the esscence of the American Dream!!


:hi:

[crispini]

25. I agree.

Well put.

[slinkerwink]

26. Thank you. Immediate priorities should be economy, environment, healthcare, and education

anything else will just be a distraction.

[I LIKE IKE 61]

33. Welcome to you.

Glad you are here. Hope we see more of you during this exciting election. :)

[0955Forrest]

36. yes. agreed.

Economy... #1 We're in deep trouble here. Well thought put solutions I hope and not overtime at the Mint.

Environment... I feel we can balance a proper care for the Environment and "fuel the American engine"

Healthcare... I betray my own conservative faith by adding... in 2008 in the USA, the most powerful, most affluent nation on the planet "No US citizen should EVER go bankrupt because of a medical treatment issue..." EVER.

Education... you guys can throw eggs now. I feel the individual districts are bloated cash cows that need restructuring.




thank you all for the kind words!

jon

[progressivebydesign]

78. I agree on health care! I keep thinking there is something wrong when we have to have bake sales..

.. to pay for cancer treatments. And hold car washes to help people, even if they are lucky enough to have insurance.

As far as school districts. I don't know enough about the inner workings and finances of them. But I think that higher education is in SEVERE need of some fiscal responsibility. Some of the College presidents are making more than CEOs.. I would like to see school districts funded equally, so that all kids have a chance at good education, not just the ones lucky enough to live in an area of high property values.

[chalky]

88. Interesting. Individual districts ARE bloated cash cows that need restructuring.

But when we tried more equitable financing of schools here in Texas, the conservatives screeched, "ROBIN HOOD!!" (A meme which you might recognize in it's more current form, "redistribution of wealth").

So see...we ARE more alike than you think.

No eggs thrown here. And welcome.

[urgk]

121. Here's the problem with the current 2 party system.

"Education... you guys can throw eggs now. I feel the individual districts are bloated cash cows that need restructuring."

I agree. But we're supposed to be on opposite benches, opposite teams. My thinking is that no government spending should exist without modification - the things that work should get tinkered with if and only if they can be made better, the things that don't should be seriously examined and fixed. The problem is that, instead of having 2 parties who say "I think we should fix program X in ways A, B and C" and "No, I think we should fix program X in ways X,Y and Z", we have one saying "Don't spend my money on program X for any reason."

It's like having 2 pit crew members working on a car when one of them doesn't believe in the morality of running the combustion engine at full speed. They can't fix it if the pull is always a struggle between "less engine" and "more engine." It has to be a concerted effort to use every tool and resource available to omake the %@#%#! engine work in the first place.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

140. Oh, so you have something against bloated cows. You're disgusting!!

:evilgrin: :+

[Sparkly]

182. "Bloated cash cows" that ration chalk.

:eyes:

[Breeze54]

94. Did you all forget there are TWO FUCKING WARS going on and people are dying still?!?

:banghead:

:wtf:

[RollWithIt]

29. I almost always enjoy talking with my conservative (Republican) friends.....

I think that what makes our country great is our ability to disagree without hating each other. We're all Americans. I think the Obama Presidency will be something different. He will most certainly have several high level Conservative advisors. The time for partisan politics after this election are over, at least in the short term. The stakes are too high, we are worse than 9/11 economically and people need reassurance and hope during these troubling times. I welcome any thoughts, even from fair minded conservatives.

Anyways, thanks for posting. I'm kind of hoping DU creates a fair minded conservative forum.

[Jed Dilligan]

30. If McCain wins I plan to drink myself to death. No point finding out

what happens. Enjoy your "reawakened" country, I don't want any part of it.

[On the Road]

31. Thank You for the Great Post!

It takes a lot to write on a board from the opposition party, especially with a lot of the opinions expressed here. A lot of Republicans talk about supporting the president, but seem to voice that opinion only when their party is in power. It is impressive that you took the initiative even before the election.

Not everyone here is poised to attack. I was a Republican in the 70s before the party cracked up. I am expecting that Obama will be a unifying rather than a divisive force in the White House and that is a very good thing.

[asdjrocky]

32. Jon, in the minute or so it took me to read this

I learned something that I thought I had forgotten; conservative, liberal or other, we are all Americans.

Just like our guy says, there are no red states, there are no blue states, this is the United States.

Good luck on the 4th and may the best candidate win.

[randr]

35. The reawakening and fresh start you speak of is the main reason

we feel the hope that Obama speaks of.
We know that when you sense the possibility of promise our future has in store you will feel the love and respect we have for Obama.
I personally welcome your thoughts and yourself to what we see as the blossoming of the greatest nation on the planet.
OK!

[MrScorpio]

37. Thank you for your very thoughtful statement

Welcome to DU

[BeyondGeography]

38. Cheers, jon

Life goes on. Let's try to do some good while we're here. :toast: :patriot:

[Doityourself]

39. Bless you .....

[NRaleighLiberal]

40. The healing and the dialogue has to start somewhere, sometime, or

I will fear for the country and the future. So, welcome and thanks.

[Withywindle]

41. I appreciate your post. Welcome to DU!

Well said. I'm taking it at face value because I want to believe.


I'd watch out for dog-person assumptions, though. Lots of us are cat-owned here, and we get our tails fluffed up over stuff like that. :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

43. (shrug) Talk to YOUR side about comity, not ours.

EDIT: One among a brazillion of examples: http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/ah-comity-by-tristero-attention-all-you.html

EDIT: Ok, two: http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=7768833&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

[mmonk]

44. Sounds good to me. I haven't seen or talked to real conservatives

in a long time (because the bush administration and the neoconservatives aren't real conservatives IMO). Let's all work to get our country back on track.

[4_Legs_Good]

45. To be honest, it's my greatest hope that Obama can bring us all together

and remind us that what you say is true: that we are all neighbors and we have more incommon than we have differences, and TOGETHER we can make America greater than ever.

David

[theothersnippywshrub]

47. You have written a thoughtful and intelligent post. Given that, I would be interested in your

opinions as a "real conservative" on the following matters:

1. Why does the economy grow at a much higher rate under democratic presidents than under republican presidents?

2. Why is the rate of job creation always much higher under democratic presidents than under republican presidents?

3. Why are the accumulated federal deficits since 1960 more than 10 times higher under republican presidents than under democratic presidents?

4. Why is it that since the aftermath of WWII every time the federal deficit has exceeded 3% of GDP it has been under a republican president?

5. Why is it that the stock market performs so much better under democratic presidents than under republican presidents?

6. Why did Ronald Reagan's 1980 primary campaign political coordinator describe the republican party's Southern Strategy as: at first you just say nigger, nigger, nigger?

7. Why did Ronald Reagan describe such a man as "a true patriot and public servant who believed in free elections and the democratic process."

These are just a few questions I have off the top of my head. If you could answer one or more of them I would be very interested in your answers.

[Downtown Hound]

48. I appreciate your sentiment 0955Forrest

And welcome. As to your requests, well, I'd like to join my fellow DU'ers here in the "we're all Americans" speech, but I'm afraid I can't. I'm really pissed at your party Forrest, I hold it responsible for basically destroying the America I grew up in and used to love. I hope maybe one day we can move beyond these divisions, but things have to change first.

If McCain wins, and it looks like there is strong evidence of foul play like there has been in the last two elections, I will be out in the streets, and the only way I'm probably going to leave them is in handcuffs. I've done it before and I will do it again. That's not saying I'm going to riot, I don't believe in rioting or property destruction. I do believe in civil disobedience. I will not allow the Republicans to continue their theft and destruction of this nation. Not without a fight anyway. Just letting you know, that's where I stand.

That being said, if the election looks fair, then I will respect its outcome, but I have no intention of being quiet, well-behaved, or gracious for the next four years. I truly believe that the Republican Party is killing America, and has come to symbolize everything that is negative in the human species: war, greed, racism, violence, ignorance, prejudice, and arrogance. And I will continue to oppose it just as I have been doing.

However, I do believe Obama is going to win this, and out of respect for him and the nation, I do hope we can one day put these miserable eight years behind us. I think he will prove to be a unifying force in these perilous times. But things have to change first for us to ever be truly united, and if McCain wins, then I highly doubt those changes will ever come.

Anyways, welcome to DU and I hope you enjoy your stay.

[Dark]

50. We agree a lot more than you think.

We don't like dfecits, we don't like big government, and we love our country

[Rectangle]

51. Wow! Great! Welcome 0955> Please however, I ask you to keep

an open mind, as to what policies actually WORK to get ALL americans
ahead. :thumbsup:

[crossroads]

52. Well said! Welcome to DU! We are all in this together... k&r

Obama is a uniter, not a divider...
Liberals are for peace... good to make your acquaintance!
I salute your courage... not easy to come here and state what you did not knowing how it would be accepted!
Respect... CR

[mtnsnake]

53. Well said, jon

We all have a lot more in common than we sometimes realize.

:thumbsup:

[Seen the light]

54. KR

[leftofthedial]

55. this is the earliest any repuke ever told me to "get over it"

[Ino]

56. "I hope there is no violence, domestic disturbance or mischief."

Not sure what that's supposed to mean, but whatever :shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

58. He means that after his fascist people steal the election,

he hopes that we will just sit down and take it like the last two times.

[Zuiderelle]

193. I had the same reaction to that bit. What other reason could he have had to write that?

"violence, domestic disturbance or mischief" WTF?

[0955Forrest]

195. no

that's not it...

I don't want "winning celebration" like when the Lakers win a world championship and I especially don't want some buck tooth inbred from arkansas to go out and lynch some black schoolkids... and if McCain wins for real... I don't want Detroit, Philly and Chicago to burn.

We need calm from ALL parties.

[krkaufman]

207. What would be an example of McCain winning... but not "for real"?

How should the country react if a victory is handed to McCain by a 5-4 partisan Supreme Court decision?

[Zuiderelle]

208. If McCain wins, there SHOULD be protest. There SHOULD be conflict.

Because it can only happen if the election is fraudulent.

If Obama wins, there will be celebration. There won't be any CALM coming from me, there will be SHEER JOY.

[Jed Dilligan]

212. I don't want calm if you dickheads steal it again.

I want to see massive unrest so that the world will know America is NOT you.

[road2000]

134. I probably read something into that...

that I hope wasn't there.

[NEDem]

57. I dunno,

I still think shipping all conservatives off to glue factories isn't such a bad idea. But I guess we can play nice.

[Vektor]

59. Welcome, Jon.

:hi:

Thank you for the heartfelt sentiment.

I'm looking forward to better days here in the USA, myself. :-)

[5thGenDemocrat]

61. Very gracious, sir. I thank you for the magnanimity

As, I am sure, do all the folks of goodwill here at the DU. I'd like to think of you as my neighbor, too, and as my American compatriot. I consider myself a liberal but, to let you in on a nasty family secret, my father proudly admitted to having voted for Richard Nixon three times ("Damn right," he'd say, "and I'd have voted for him a fourth time, too").
This is one fantastic country and, though we'll all need each other to fix what problems there are with it, I love it with all my heart and have no intention of ever giving up on it. I am sure you feel exactly the same.
Again, thank you for your kind gesture.
John
Thinking we might agree on a whole lot more than we disagree on. May God protect and save these honorable United States of America.

[VoodooGuru]

63. That is thoughtful.

Thank you for your trust in the process, and in our candidate. I'd shake your hand if I could.

[Essene]

64. welcome... what's important is we maintain dignity and avoid partisan reactionary politics...

nice to see ya :D

[WhiteTara]

65. depends

if it really is a fresh clean start instead of more of the same shit. Expect a revolution if this election is stolen. Hope to see you on the front lines with me if RW steals another election.

[PretzelWarrior]

66. Ban you? NO WAY. I hope we have 10,000 more just like you

I truly hope this is your intent. Peace be with you. And I agree about a reawakening. Let's start from the unity and introspection just after 9/11 and have a do over under Obama.

I love this sentiment.

[Liberalboy]

67. Thanks

Thank you sincerely, I think all any of us want is to be good American; and I think he gives us that shot :-)

[GreenPartyVoter]

68. Hello *wave*

[Joe the Liberal]

69. Ummmmmmmmmmm......

Hiya Jon, and welcome DU I guess! :hi:

[Roxy66]

70. Amen....

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

71. Welcome to DU Jon. I think you will find that you have many things in common with many here, much to

the chagrin of those who have demonized Liberals through the years.

[mvd]

73. Welcome to DU

The fact that you will be behind Obama separates you already from other Republicans. Many Republicans were quick to smear Clinton on everything including foreign policy while demanding lockstep with Bush in the name of "patriotism." I would have supported Bush's mission after 9/11 if he really went after who they say attacked us. But he got us into two ill-advised ground wars. Anyway, hope you can be a convert. :hi:

[PretzelWarrior]

77. ****RECOMMEND THIS THREAD, PLEEEAAASSEEEE!!!!!!****

I'm too emotional today. For some reason this thread is making me misty eyed. I want our country to repair the rifts and get back together.

[dogpatch]

74. thank you and welcome, Jon

Hopefully we all will pull together, all 300 million of us real Americans.

[Godhumor]

75. Nice start. Promise to behave after the 4th?

Because I'd hate to see you throw away decent intro post.

[calimary]

76. Hey! Welcome to DU!

Very nice message! I hope others in your column are as magnanimous as you are, and you make some great points.

I hope you can understand some of the way we've felt for AT LEAST the past seven-and-some years, when we've been kicked in the teeth again and again, mocked, called names, demonized, accused of treason, murder, disloyalty, godlessness, aiding and abetting the enemy, and sympathy for terrorists - and the list goes on. And on. AND ON. It's just been DAMNED hard to deal with. Would that others on your side of the aisle were as gentlemanly.

You are so correct - we need a fresh start. A new beginning. To hit the "Reset" button on the dawn of the 21st Century. I hope the emphasis in the days, weeks, months, and years ahead that more of us will care about reuniting the country than about keeping it divided.

Thank you for your offer of solidarity and your obvious generosity of spirit. Too bad there aren't more at home like you.

Cheers and hugs!

:patriot: :hug: :headbang: :hi:

[agentS]

79. Tell it to the Palin conservatives

Some of those people act and sound like they're ready to go to war against the US and black people if Obama wins.
Perhaps the message of "beyond politics" should be said to them and often too.

[Breeze54]

81. "...and drawing lines between ourselves is not the right way..."

Hmmm.... but isn't that what you GOP types have been doing all along for the last 12 years? :wtf:

Now you want to play nice and let bygones be bygones? I'm trying not to laugh at you, as you seem

sincere but I'll take it on a case by case basis. I won't make any promises. The rage is real.

Welcome to DU, 0955Forrest.

[PretzelWarrior]

106. you sound very scarred

you can't even give a guy a decent welcome without the crap thrown in. really cool.

[nyccitizen]

83. Welcome. Respectful debate is a healthy thing. Blinders are no good for anyone. nt

[TheFarseer]

84. that's a good attitude

I was trying to give Bush a chance until he did the whole Iraq thing. As long as people aren't going to come on here and try to debate Iraq was worth it or something that Democrats have decided a LONG time ago, I don't see any reason to ban anyone. For the record, I think true conservatives have something important to offer our country, but Neo-cons have NO redeeming qualities.

[Oldtimeralso]

85. Welcome aboard!

I appreciate and for the the most part agree with your comments in your second post in this thread. I think that you will enjoy reading most of the posts on DU even if you do not agree and I'm sure that intelligent posts from a conservative viewpoint will be a welcome addition. Thanks for coming here and hope you stay and even help support the board!

[Every Man A King]

86. Who are you voting for?

Maybe i missed it but i just checked again and didn't see it. Did you support the invasion of Iraq?

[jazzjunkysue]

87. Jon- We need real conservatives like you. We needed some in the Bush

administration, and the lack of them has put Obama in power.

I sincerely hope the GOP re-establishes their conservative pedigree, which does not include war. Defense, maybe, but not war.

They insist on balanced budgetsm limited national debt, and reasonable regulations in stocks and banking.

We have to stop trying to profit from illness and age, and take resources off the trading market.

I hope you will find leaders who will remember to make money and law the old fashioned way: By earning it.

You will not get banned from this site unless you start making up the crap we've been hearing about socialism or terrorism, and the rest of the baloney.

So, how would you feel about Sarah Palin replacing McCain if he became ill in a year? And, how did you feel about William Buckley's son being thrown out because of his endorsement?

[Richard Steele]

89. Yeah, I'm sure you want a "fresh clean start".

You'd just LOVE it if we all forgot what has been done
to this nation over the last 8 years, and if we all just
shook hands with the criminals who did it.

Well, when and if you start calling for the PROSECUTION
of all the conservatives who broke laws while they were
empowered by the Bush Administration, we'll talk.

Not before.

[IsItJustMe]

90. We will see. As old Senile Ronald Reagan once said, "Trust but verify."

[renate]

91. welcome to DU!

I also feel that this election represents a clean start. Democrats have been grossly mistreated and maligned for the past eight years and called un-American for our views; it's going to be more than a bit difficult to move past that, but it will feel much better to think of Republicans as fellow Americans than to continue to bear that bitter resentment once Obama is sworn in. (Until then, Bush still makes me sick.)

Good to see you here! Thanks for your message!

:toast:

[progressivebydesign]

92. Welcome! Thank you SO much for your thoughtful post!!

It was so welcome tonight. Emotions are running pretty high this time of year, so the olive branch you extend is all the more sweet. I don't mind that other people have opposing views from mine. I am a grown up and understand that we all see things in our own way. I just hate the manufactured divisions and the hate talk that have infected the republican party for so many years.

You are taking a great step in the right direction. It's appreciated.

So.. the important stuff: What kind of dog(s) do you have? Any cats? :)

PS- An in the thread, amongst the kind posts, you'll see some angry or nasty ones. Just do what I do. Pretend you're making pancakes, and just toss those ones that don't look appetizing out before sitting down to enjoy your breakfast.

[Nostradammit]

95. Just don't leave your dog's shit in my front yard

That's all I ask.

:)

Welcome to DU and welcome to the future.

:toast:

[johnaries]

96. Welcome! I sincerely hope we can work together on a fresh start.

Open and honest disagreement and debate is good, as long as the goal is for the betterment of all. I know there will be many who will still do whatever they can to diminish the other side, but I hope the majority of us can realize how much needs to be done and work towards that goal.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

97. Your tone seems sincere enough.. but you speak of "drawing lines".

You don't think your "team" is doing that with "pro-America" parts of America, "real" Virginia vs. (fake) Virginia, and the like? You have no problems with this kind of "line drawing" as long as it's done to win an election, but you don't think it has a lasting effect between elections?

Come on now, you can't bullshit a bullshitter.

[Richard Steele]

104. Now that Obama's victory seems inevitable, he hopes for a "clean fresh start".

As in, "Hey, now that YOUR candidates are in power,
let's all forget how MY candidates spent eight years
kicking you in the teeth, stealing everything that wasn't nailed down,
and abusing their power to bully everyone who didn't kiss their ass"

Y'know, if I'd spent eight years supporting
the most blatantly criminal 'Administration'
in U.S. history, and knew that LAWS were going
to start being enforced again real soon...I'd
be kissing up to the incumbents & begging for
a "clean fresh start" too.

If this guy really believes what he says, he would
have been FERVENTLY anti-B*sh by early 2003.

I can't believe so many DUers are falling for this
cravenly fawning, licking-the-tallest-boots bullshit post.

[goletian]

98. imo, youre really a liberal. one america. much love. - nt

[Maven]

99. So...uh, are you supporting/voting for Obama or not?

It's really hard to tell from your post.

Welcome to DU, but be sure to read the rules. New members are always welcome but there are core principles DUers are expected to uphold, and this is a site dedicated to supporting Democrats exclusively.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

109. My read of the post is that they are voting McCain but conceding defeat.

[No Passaran]

100. You must be old school

The kind that is left out without the party because it's hijacked by religious freaks

[No Passaran]

101. You must be old school

The kind that is left out without the party because it's hijacked by religious freaks

[JeffR]

102. Heartfelt thanks from a socialist.

Good for you for posting this. Good for us all.

[grannylib]

103. Heartfelt thanks and welcome to DU from a real Christian Socialist

die-hard liberal granny :-)

I really do believe we will be better as a nation under President Obama, and I admire your attitude! If everyone felt as you do, we'd go even further, together...

Yes we CAN!

[Eyes_wide_ open]

105. I believe we all have more in common than we know

and I'm quite sure that most Americans have the same basic goals, albeit differing ideas on how to achieve them. IMO it is through the exchange of ideas that we learn and grow. You will find a wide variety in the types of ideas here, and no bashfulness about expressing them. DU is a lively and passions run high (esp. now), and this forum in particular is no place for the thin skinned. You will also find many wonderful people who care deeply for our country and want nothing so much as to heal her. It's also a great resource with a wealth of information.

I claim no party affiliation personally, but wholeheartedly support Barack Obama who won me with his message of hope and change, and the necessity of unity to accomplish that goal. Along with the priorities stated up thread, I want to see a return to responsibility and accountability in government, and the restoration of our Constitution and our rights as citizens.

I agree completely with your statement that our government should be neither nanny or daddy and share your hope that violence can be avoided. But like another poster up thread, should this election be stolen my place will be in the streets. Too long we have been silent, and while I sincerely doubt that the protesters would initiate any violence, I have little hope that the administration would show any reluctance in that respect. I can't readily dismiss the shadows of Kent State. As long ago as that was, our government has regressed rather than grown wiser.

I appreciate the graciousness of your post and believe in your sincerity. I look forward to the exchange of ideas on how we get this train back on the tracks.

Welcome to DU ... hope you're ready for a wild ride.

[iamthebandfanman]

107. fresh start?

lock up these assholes who got thousands of our young people killed for a lie, and we'll talk about forgetting the last 8 years...

i by no means have hatred or anger at my republican brother and sister citizens of this country... but the administration its congressional supporters... thats another story.

i only want justice, as should everyone..regardless of party.

[buddysmellgood]

108. The good Republicans arise. We were afraid you'd been locked up for 8 years.

[Hope08]

110. I agree with you

It's time to work together, not insult one another. As Americans, we agree on many more issues than we disagree on.

[Hekate]

111. I'll be glad to shake your hand

:hi:

Hekate

[No Elephants]

112. Sorry. If Obama loses, this white woman is taking to the streets of Boston. I may even smash some

windows.

[Duncan Grant]

113. Can I have a little justice before that "fresh clean start"? Crimes have been committed.

This has been the most radical, secretive and (dare I say it?) criminal administration in our history. I demand justice before I start making nicey-nice to the people who put Bush/Cheney in power.

Justice for veterans.
Justice for those who died for Bush's lies.
Justice for New Orleans.
Justice for single-parent families.
Justice for those who are among the 'lower' class.
Justice for Ohio and Florida.
Justice for the Kyoto Accord/Protocol.
Justice for Al Gore.
Justice for LGBT people and their families.
Justice for science and academia.
Justice for the economy.
(and there's more, this is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg...)

And after we're done with that, we can all have a "latte" and laugh about the good old days of:

-Signing statements to circumvent the legislative branch (or is that the executive branch? Let's ask Cheney!)
-No Child Left Behind
-The Patriot Act
-I'm a uniter, not a divider
-Weapons of mass destruction
-"Bring it on"
-Mission Accomplished

It's too soon for me to be singing kumbyah but if we can move toward justice, I'll hum a refrain or two.

[Duppers]

217. Amen! We can have that 'fresh start' after justice has been served.

Crimes have been committed.

If these exiting crooks are not to be held accountable and punished, then we should just open our prisons door too.

[Duncan Grant]

229. Only a fool would turn the other cheek to these psychopaths.

Accountability. Justice. Reconciliation.

In that order.

:hi:

[No Elephants]

114. If he loses, the election will have been stolen AGAIN. I am not taking that in stride AGAIN, Sorry.

[old mark]

115. OK, but I still hope your party gets ground into the fucking dirt where it belongs.

[Guava Jelly]

116. Thank you.

We are all in this together.

[BlueCollar]

117. Remember the "I'm a uniter, not a divider" line ?

"Let's all agree to agree that 11-5-2008 is a reawakening for the US... a fresh clean start."


I assume that a fresh clean start will include the DOJ and Congress actually conducting criminal investigations and prosecutions if justified?

I'm too jaded I guess...Have heard this before from Gingrich in 94 and Bushco in 2000 and 2004.

[quaker bill]

118. I hope for a clean

election with a clear and undebatable winner, without recounts and litigation. Of course, I support Obama and hope he is the beneficiary of this result.

While personally a pacifist, I am concerned that contested or even close results that involve recounts and litigation will not go over well, given the current emotional state among elements of both camps, in particular some of the stuff reported on at the Palin rallies.

I feel the emotional state of the country teeters on the brink of a truly and unfortunately cathartic experience that might involve injuries and property damage. I hope for a result that is so obvious that it renders such things pointless.

[Borgnine]

119. Hell yeah.

Thanks for the post!

[urgk]

120. Instead of making assumptions, maybe I should just ask you outright -

Jon,
Do you say that because you think there will be a fair McCain win and you think Democrats will react badly? Or do you think there will be a stolen election and the Democrats will react badly? Or, are you afraid that it will be like a World Series victory with the Democrats winning and then running around turning over cars and throwing bottles at police?

I'd really like to know.

And thanks for coming in and quietly starting a conversation. We need more of that between parties.

[stolivodka]

122. Real conservatives didn't leave the Republican party. The party left them.

It's a crying shame that they've been taken over by fundy nutjobs. Take heart, though. As soon as this election is over, the fiscal conservatives will once again take command. I respect your position and welcome you to DU. Thank you for your contributions!

[mwb970]

124. Thanks for reminding us of "the way things were".

For years and years, I disagreed with Republicans while still respecting their spokesmen and ideas. Now that the Republican Party has been hijacked by its extremists I can no longer say this.

Once the electoral tumult and shouting has died, it would be nice to have actual, non-crazy conservatives on the board here to help us see which parts of their agenda we do agree with. Why not start with that and build, instead of yielding to the divisiveness of Palin/McCain and JTP?

[Orsino]

125. The reawakening has already begun.

We're just counting on McCain's and Palin's stepping aside to let us begin the actual repair work.

Rather than worrying about mischief after the election, we should be demanding the transparency that would prevent it before and during. You want peace afterward, ensure there's justice first. Inauguration Day will be a fresh start, but not with McCain and Palin gumming up the works.

Obama and Biden are the "real conservatives" in this race. McCain and Palin have promised nothing but more Bush Fail. If you really want a "fresh start," vote Obama-Biden.

Okay?

[specialed]

126. The Scorpion and the Frog

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.

The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...


I don't trust scorpions.

[janx]

129. Hey!

Hello! :party:

[npincus]

130. howdy, pal.

Some of my best friends are on the "other side"... thought admittedly not so many. But we agree to disagree, and I respect you for coming here and putting your very fair and decent sentiments down. :)

[Canuckistanian]

131. Welcome to DU

It's nice to know that there are still people like you out there.

[Ozma]

133. Well, no argument from ME!

I appreciate a Conservative voice here on DU once in a while! Especially one with reasonableness.

[CitizenPatriot]

135. I agree with your sentitment

however, I'd like to point out that a similar post was put on Free Republic just days ago, from a liberal to the Freepers, and it got banned and had so many ugly, hate-filled responses as to make a reasonable person question .... just who are the dangerous people out there?

And to think that the liberal, who was winning according to the polls, had the graciousness to say hey, let's not fight -- don't be scared. Let's do this together.

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but only if it means that you do not condone the anti-Americanism of your party; the attempts at voter disenfranchisement, the illegal election frauds, the violence-inciting rallies of Palin, the McCarthyism tactics, etc.

Furthermore, I recall statements like this made when Bush won...right after Clinton had endured years of witch hunts for being unfaithful in his marriage. Clinton's actions did not impact this country, did not steal rights away from citizens, did not murder hundreds of thousands of people, he did not lie to the American people about WMD and cause an illegal war, etc.

I did not vote for Bush, but I tried to be a good citizen when he stole the election. A good citizen, as defined by the GOP; one who went along and got over it.

What did that get me?

Accountability and transparency. Those are the things we should be agreeing upon. Those and upholding the constitution. This would mean that war criminals and the people in the GOP who illegally politicized the DoJ should be held accountable.

It's easy to spout rhetoric about getting along, when you are not the person who is facing death row because the Republican party rules the state you are accused in. I speak of Troy Davis, a man who seems to be innocent of the crime he has been accused of. Should he just get along and forget? He can't and neither can his family.

Please take time to look even deeper into your soul and ask yourself if you can live with the choices of your party.

I hope that true conservatives get a party that upholds their values, as true democracy needs the balance of the two parties. However, the GOP is so clearly not conservative. Only the seriously irony impaired could miss that.

Thank you for your post and I wish you well on this journey. I remember how horrible the last 8 years were for me and the values I hold dear, which ironically are not too far from the ones you espouse. Not so far that they can't come together, if only partisanship and ideology weren't ruining the fabric of this once great democracy.

The fundies and the neo cons have ruined your party. they have no moral authority, yet they run on being the Moral Majority. It is truly an international joke at this point.

Take care and thanks for posting.

[stillcool]

136. this is a really interesting post...

I just read another post in which the majority of replies stated that Republicans should pretty much be drawn and quartered. I'm happy to see the comments here are responding to you as a person, another American. I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss anyone wearing a label, and not judge a human being on their own merits. Maybe it's human nature.

[Obamarama]

137. No, we don't all "insert verb here." FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE!

Just shut the fuck up already.

I'm not falling for this "lets all join hands and sing Kumbaya" bullshit.
When you and your ilk apologize and repent (you folks are so fucking big on repentance, after all), then I might lighten up and work on letting bygones be bygones, but I'm sorry....first you're going to have to wallow in sack cloth and ashes for a period of time that has not yet been determined. That, I suppose, will depend on your willingness to admit the errors of your conservative ideology and the degree to which it has harmed this nation.

I have nothing to little in common with you, so don't come rearing your head into my airspace and have the audacity to spout this "we're all the same" pablum, listing the things "we all do". And DEFINITELY DON'T DO IT THREE DAYS BEFORE AN ELECTION YOUR GUY IS POISED TO LOSE. Fuck that shit. A rat fleeing a sinking ship is still a rat.

We don't all think we should stay in Iraq

We don't all support deregulation that got us into this financial mess

We don't all think that healthcare should not be nationalized and available to all

We don't all think we should rape our landscape and "drill, baby, drill"

We don't all think that two individuals loving each other enough to want to get married are a threat to American society

We don't all believe that religion trumps science when it comes to issues like intelligent design and stem cell research

I can't imagine many of us believe that women don't have the right to choose whether or not to proceed with her pregnancy

The list could go on and on.

So don't even pretend "we all do". We may all walk our dogs, but I can guarantee you we both think radically different things while we're walking them.

And you certainly should not be deluded enough to think that we only disagree with one another once every four years. What the fuck planet did you blow in from??

So yeah...I'm jaded, pissed, and after the last 8 years I'm holding a deep, stubborn grudge that might just take a while to ease. To borrow a phrase from that hack Sarah Palin: "YOU BETCHA"

So as far as I'm concerned, you can just scadaddle back to whatever rock you crawled out from under and come back when you're prepared to ask for forgiveness.

[Bryn]

142. Rude Subject Line

and the first sentence. x(

[Obamarama]

143. Yup...it is rude, isn't it.? The original poster needs a rude awakening.

[sniffa]

151. I can't believe it's taken this long for this type of response

[Obamarama]

158. Tell me about it. Where's the outrage? Isn't there a spine left on DU??

[sniffa]

180. You misspelled class

[Maven]

159. Agree with your post.

Please don't come in here 8 years later, after all your party has put us through, and 3 days before an election in which you apparently voted for 4 MORE years of the same, and tell us "we're all in this together."

Fuck that.

[trotsky]

166. Oh but Bushie isn't a "REAL" conservative!

Duh! Give me a fucking break - he gave conservatives everything they want! Massively lower taxes on the richest, the end of the inheritance tax, a shifting of the tax burden onto the working class, perpetual war with astronomical defense budgets, culture war bashing liberals/"abortionists"/homosexuals/atheists, incredible de-regulation of financial sectors, you name it. It's been one conservative wet dream after another. 8 long fucking years later and the country is in this shithole of a mess THANKS TO THOSE DAMN POLICIES and now all of a sudden, "Oh no, Bush is no conservative!"

FUCK THAT SHIT! This guy may have had wonderful intentions, but until he realizes it is the very bankrupt political philosophy of conservatism that GOT us in this goddamn mess, NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

[immoderate]

171. With you. The OP is so much bullshit.

NOW he wants to be friends? I can have conservative friends, but I need to hear a denunciation of Bushism.

--IMM

[That Is Quite Enough]

184. Agreed.

This 'let's all get along' post reeks of somebody afraid of a vengeful Democratic fury after their party spent 8 years destroying this country and the rest of the world.

I'm not ready for a 'fresh start.' Not yet. I'm not letting this party of criminals and psychos get off free because on the eve of their downfall they suddenly want to hold hands.

[polichick]

139. Why not help with Obama GOTV these last three days - begin to redeem yourself.

[sellitman]

141. So who did/ will you vote for?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Festivito]

144. But, why do you hate America?

I mean the America that did not accept tyranny from a king George, but rather stood, took arms, fought, wrote, and acted with human dignity to create this nation.

You're not the kind of conservative that wants to save money from being overspent, you're the kind that just wants to think he can have everyone accept what is bad as long as it is not too bad for you while you are saying it.

"no matter the outcome" Should we find our nation embroiled in avoiding recounts, finding unreported strange results from machines we are denied the right investigate, drop absentee and provisional ballots because it might alter the already media-called election; we should do NOTHING? I think not.

We should indeed rise and fight such tyranny and not accept your preemptive attempt to stop real Americans from acting like real Americans.

I hope this is just some unwittingly passed theme from others, or just an attempt to be short on words. But, if we search to find where we disagree, I do not think it will be in principle, national character or philosophy, it will be in fortitude.

This cabal has been stealing America and its wealth for over 30 years and if you have only just now figured that out, you might just find yourself agreeing with us on all points once you do reach your epiphany.

I would also accept John McCain as my president should that happen and let him govern as I did accept George Bush and Bill Clinton, et. al. However, I will not give up my right to be human, to be American, to tolerate abuse of my nation to you or any of your ilk.

The Conservative side has ruined much soccer cheering and dog walking in its years.

The disagreements will last throughout all the years of every president as should disagreements. I hope we can find where we disagree and build a more perfect union, a better America, whatever it takes.

You go right ahead posting here. You don't seem the typical Conservative that places twenty bad adjectives surrounding a Democrat's name and think he has accomplished something. The lets-not-look-there idea may not play well around here. The where-do-we-disagree plays.

Good luck. Welcome to DU. Don't worry too much about the Republican trolls who will attack you here by making you think you shouldn't post around here by claiming themselves to be left wingers instead of accurately calling themselves charlatans.

[Obamarama]

145. And another thing.....

Those of you cooing over this faux sentiment from a conservative who has aided and abetted the mess we're in....PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE!

[Binka]

173. Damn Straight! Jesus Gawd Who The Fuck Does Jon Think He's Fooling?

DU is a safe haven for DEMOCRATS not assholes like the OP who knows his treacherous shit is OVER.

[stuntcat]

174. .

voting twice for Bush/Cheney cannot be undone.

The entire world and all the babies' future is pretty much fucked. We can make big changes from now on but we can't undo what's been done by "conservatives"

[IndyOp]

146. I appreciate your attitude and I want us to work together too -- still, we disagree everyday

-- on issues that are critically important and I, for one, am going to push those issues everyday for the next 8 years.

Just as the pursuit of journalism should be truth and not "fair and balanced coverage of both sides", so should the pursuit of our national conversation be what is truly in our nation's best interest - not "fair to both sides".

There are conservative ideals that I admire -- thinking long-term, personal discipline, commitment to the constitution -- but your party hasn't practiced what you've preached for a long, long time. The people who driven the party have broken every law they've encountered to make a quick buck for the wealthiest citizens and that must end.

We need a discussion to rediscover our national ideals and we need to change our behavior.

[bread_and_roses]

147. "Real" Conservatives have always supported profit over people, management against labor, the rich

over the poor, property rights over human rights. Tell me, oh "real conservative," where were conservatives on every one of the great social advances of the past two-hundred years? Were they on the front lines to expand the franchise? The vote for women? The civil rights movement? Labor standards? Unions? Safe food? Show me the "real conservatives" supporting universal health care, supporting curbs on the power of corporations, fighting restrictive voter ID laws? Just for starters, those - I could go on but what's the point?

You may well be sincere yourself, I wouldn't know, having no special powers to read into the intents of a poster on a message board. And the good people here, responding to a presumption of sincerety on your part, welcome you out of their good-natured impulse to take an extended hand.

But for my part, "real conservatives" are as bankrupt ideologically as their natural offspring, the Neo-Lib/Cons who have dismantled our constitution, beggared our populace to the benefit of the super-rich, and are well on the way to destroying our planet.

Start questioning the premises that make THOSE outcomes a reality and I might welcome you too. But not until.

[gaspee]

153. Exactly

You nailed exactly the reason I don't even want to work with "real" conservatives. So-called "Real" conservatives are still selfish bastards who think I (and all LGBT americans) do not deserve full agency in society.

So no, I don't respect "real" conservatives. I think they're selfish assholes who need to get their heads out of their asses.

[LittleBlue]

149. Agree 100%. I still feel a little conservative myself

at least in terms of foreign, non-interventionist policy and a balanced budget.

Welcome to DU!

[Essene]

152. that's the great thing... what defines "conservative" is now open to discussion again

What's wrong with a states' rights approach to gun policy? :)

Balanced budget?

Cautious, less imperial foreign policy?

I think what's vital is that we shake up the labels "liberal" and "conservative" in the coming years. They were defined FOR us by reactionary theocrats and culture warriors in the 1990s.

[myrna minx]

150. Welcome to DU, 0955Forrest.

:hi:

[Th1onein]

154. But you will back McCain's policies if McCain wins, right?

And you never answered the question as to whether you voted for Obama or not.

You know, I respect the SPIRIT in which your post was made.

But that's about it. The party which I must assume you backed for the past eight years would have us all in Gitmo, if they'd had their way. They'd have already taken our Social Security from us and given it to Wall Street. They'd have us in THREE wars by now, if they had had their way. I could go on and on and this is only about what they would LIKE to do, if they had their way, NOT about what they HAVE already done, to American citizens and to our beloved democrazy. And they did it in such a dirty, Rovian manner.

Yeah, Americans have to come together. And, to a certain degree, we are all going to disagree with each other, at one time or another. But the principles, ideology and philosophy that you support are anathema to us.

Surely you recognize that?

[DangerousRhythm]

155. I count reasonable Republicans among my real life friends...

In fact, one of them just admitted to early voting for Obama, so I know where you're coming from and I thank you for the kind, gracious message. :)

[windbreeze]

156. Welcome to DU...and thanx for your thoughts, which I can mostly agree with

From what I understand, as long as you don't trash Democrats, you won't have a problem being here...sometimes it helps to give serious consideration to what you have written, before posting, even though you can go back and edit a post after the fact....The healing must begin, if this country is to survive...I personally, will swear to be non-violent after it's over...so let's look forward to a "fresh clean start" on Nov 5, 2008....wb

[BoneDaddy]

157. We don't ban people for speaking peace

and you are the type of republican that I would love to work with, but you also need to understand the level of frustration we all have here and it is difficult for people to get past some of the anger and dismay at the total disruption your party has done to this wonderful country.

[quantass]

160. Cheers to that

[Maven]

161. Ahem. WHO IS THIS POSTER VOTING FOR?

Can we get a straight answer amongst all the waving lighters and kumbayas?

[avaistheone1]

163. I thought the neocons had killed off all the real conservatives...

[tblue37]

164. You sound like the conservatives of old--the *real* ones, not the insane

radicals who have hijacked the term "conservative" so that it tastes like poison in our mouths.

We need principled conservatives, just as we need principled liberals, for a balanced government. The Bush administration and its cronies are not conservatives, they are power mad radicals determined to shred our Constitution and loot our treasury.

[Joe Chi Minh]

165. I love the spirit of your post and its general thrust, jon, but I would not

like to leave something you wrote unchallenged: "We all lead similar lives and only disagree once or twice every 4 years..."

I expect it's predominantly true of DU posters, but no more than that. The Republicans' economic policies, and even Bill Clinton's NAFTA agreement, have inflicted immense pain on many, many Americans, whose lives are not in any way reflected in the slightly Norman Rockwellish kind of picture of domesticity you evoke. So, while you and other Republicans may have made decisions only once or twice very four years, their effects have been catastrophic for the many, many poorer people in your country, my country, the UK, and all over the world. In Iraq and Afghanistan, of course, even material affluence is no guarantee of even survival.

But I'm all for all pulling together now, behind Obama. I won't even hypothesise a McCain victory, which would be horrendous beyond belief, and could only ensue from voter suppression and electoral fraud on a grand scale. Indeed, anything less than a landslide for Obama could only be construed in the same way.

Having said my piece, now it's ok, jon, and I expect we all look forward to hearing more from you as a DU OP on other occasions.

Paul

[salonghorn70]

167. Welcome!!!!

Life-long Democrat here. But I'm moderate and support the DLC. So, I disagree with most who post. I do enjoy DU and if you are into politics you probably will too. I've never had a problem because I keep my posts friendly and don't argue. :hi:

[immoderate]

168. Sounds like you supported Bush. What were you thinking?

In '64 I supported Goldwater, because of his honesty. As I became more knowledgeable I found that politicians have to demonstrate their credibility every day to get my support. That goes for any party.

You want to be friends now because you're losing. Where were you in '04?

I have Republican friends. We party and play music together. We go plinking in the desert. When it comes to politics we argue and fight. Some don't go there with me because I can point out how they vote against their own interests, especially those that are social libertarians.

Sure you can be welcome here as long as you don't oppose progressive values or Democratic candidates. But I don't think you "get it."

--IMM

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

169. Sorry

After hearing "Get Over It" in 2000 and "We're Not Sorry" in 2004, pardon me if seeing this olvie branch is a little like watching Ric Flair pleading on his knees begging off the babyface while loading up to hit him with the low blow.

[mahina]

170. Nonviolent resistance is extremely effective, more effective than violence in mass actions.

We are all Americans first. That message is what brought Obama into my heart in 2004, when I first heard his speech at the DNC.

Obama said then, "There is no red America and Blue America, there is the United States of America." I hope you can bring that message to your conservative friends. Ask them to look for true information, because they are being lied to 24-7 by Fox "news" and the Limbaugh et al. noise machine, and many of them really believe what they hear over there. More surprising to me, the ones I know don't have any interest in reading newspapers even from our own country, never mind getting a perspective from outside the US via the BBC or other international news.

Fox has constructed a parallel reality that contains more lies than I can even keep track of, and it has really harmed this country. I disagree with every tenet they hold. Looming largest among these, the false notion that liberals want to take from the working people. They say they hate welfare, but lie about how much resources go to the poorest compared to the richest. It's sickening to me that they would grudge basic food and shelter for the poorest, but shovel billions at Halliburton, Exxon et cetera.

I hope that since you are a true conservative, you will find a comfortable place here. I always thought we needed a place to talk to each other, not just to ourselves. Not certain this is that place, but we can sure try.

Anyway. Welcome to DU.

[Left Is Write]

172. "We all lead similar lives and only disagree once or twice every 4 years..."

I'm sorry, but I don't believe this is true. My disagreement with conservative politics is a core, fundamental disagreement. If you are supportive of conservative politics and conservative policies, then I disagree with you every day of every year.

That doesn't mean I couldn't get along with you on a day-to-day basis, but there's so much more than a case of "we...disagree only once or twice every four years."

[JoMama49]

175. Hi Jon, I'm a social conservative too. I know it's hard to

believe, but some of us with lefty viewpoints, also have conservative family values and morals. I suspect there are a lot more of us than anyone knows! Thank you for your post, and I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts!

[Maven]

176. Tell me

what do your "conservative family values and morals" entail?

[Left Is Write]

177. I'd be interested in knowing too.

[Duncan Grant]

181. Conservative family values and morals? How anti-gay and anti-choice are you?

"Conservative family values and morals" is right-wing rhetoric meaning anti-gay and anti-choice. Is that how you mean it?

[Duncan Grant]

226. **crickets** (nt)

[SpiralHawk]

183. "We'll never forgive you for being fair minded." - Commander AWOL & Homelander Cronies

"Either you're with us, or you're against us."

- Commander AWOL & Homelander Cronies

[Sparkly]

186. I don't even know what "real conservative" MEANS anymore.

The term has come to mean NOTHING, in my view -- except nosy bedroom-peeping, sanctimonious finger-pointing, holier-than-thou soapbox ranting, strawman building, swift-boating, borrow-and-spending, warmongering, wasteful arrogant hypocritical fearful hateful assholery.

I guess that's what "conservative" has come to mean. :shrug:

[0955Forrest]

187. a few more details...

A few of my personal positions.

1) Iraq, Certainly a mistake. I personally would have advised Hussein that in the 9-11 world he had to choose his foes... I believe that Hussein would have exchanged international acceptance for desire to be anti-West. Invasion was not necessary.
But today... 11-2-2008 the US has nearly finished the job in Iraq. Let them finish.

The frozen pizza burned in the oven but as long as the oven's warm heat up last night's leftovers.

2) Abortion. My view ranges from "it's a personal choice" to "it's not a Federal issue" I believe that Roe v. Wade was bad law. Not saying that abortion shouldn't be legal in jurisdictions where the community wants it... but shouldn't have been a Federal issue. Question for you all... if 75% of Oklahomans believe that abortion should be illegal, should there be a Federal mandate to keep it legal? Or should it be a state's rights sorta call? That's also why I'd be AGAINST a Federal ban on same-sex marriage.

3) Taxation. I'm OK with Clinton-era tax policy with the exception of the "death tax".

4) Energy. Reasonable regulation is needed. Let the market determine what people drive... when gasoline hit $4.50 per gallon the dealers couldn't give away SUV's. I support reasonable energy exploration like ANWR and offshore drilling (If the states approve, remember I don't like telling states what they can/can't do) I support alternative energy, clean coal and clean US-made Natural gas. I support nuclear power just like European nations.

5) Guns. Big supporter of the 2nd Am...

I ESPECIALLY dislike the right's new habit of torturing the left with a social agenda. I don't care if someone worships at a church, at a bar, in their restroom or practices not to believe/worship. Religious freedom is a 2 way street.

The new right has become the big gov't party... wrong answer.

Study the Republican party of the 50's-60's... this modern version is NOT it.


I haven't decided on my electoral choice yet... it is between "flushing the toilet: and starting fresh... or going with a party I don't really agree with...

Reasons to support McCain (IMHO)

1) Finish Iraq debacle correctly.
2) Appoint constitutional SC justices.
3) Avoid 1 party rule.
4) The hope for budget restraint?


Reasons to vote for Obama (IMHO)

1) I make under 250K per year... Obama promises I won't pay more taxes.
2) Finish Iraq correctly (contrary to the far right I believe that Obama will not stage a hasty withdrawal from Iraq and will bring the soldiers home in VICTORY)
3) Health Care reform
4) Economy. I think the economy will respond well to an Obama presidency. Within a week of taking office the MSM will report every 50 point gain in the DOW as the start of the "Obama economy"
5) We can be friends with the rest of the world again

6) It will cause the Republican party to hopefully eject the neocons for the real conservatives.


What I honestly DON'T like about Obama.

1) I believe he really is snob-ish and intellectually elitist.

2) I don't like that he spent the formative years of his life associating with socialists/lefty activists (by his own admission in his book)

3) If you look at his record I believe he is farther left than his campaign promises. I'd worry about 2nd Amen, SC justices, taxing the middle class and the "fairness doctrine" which mandates radio stations to donate air time to non-profitable entities.

4) I wish he was fiscally more conservative, how will he afford his plans?

So that's me... am I still welcome?

[auntAgonist]

189. I didn't read your entire post but I do want to say... IRAQ was NO Mistake!

It was planned and deliberate. Iraq was no mistake!
People, innocent people have died for this planned debacle. It was NO mistake.

aA

[asdjrocky]

194. It's not for me to determine if you are welcome-

The rules determine that and I'd suggest you take a look. I disagree with you on just about everything, especially on womens health issues, and it seems to me that you drink from a troff that no longer exists. There is no one in the Republican party that comes close to Goldwater, and on it's current trek, no one ever will. They are the party of pure corporate coruption.

And I have to say this about geography and a womens right to choose what is right for her. What choice dose a woman have if she wants an abortion and her community has deemed it unavailable? Wrong, wrong, wrong. You don't like big government unless it has to do with another persons body or bedroom. Think about that. As a man, I can get viagra, I can get a vasectomy, and I can pretty much buy condoms wherever I like. Why should a woman have any less right to decide? That is not right or left, it's just how it should be.

As for you points on Barack Obama, you are way off base in my opinion, and your opinion is based almost entirely on feelings and fear rather than a true inspection of his accomplishments and beliefs. You are not doing your homework and it's not my job to change your mind. Your information seems to be completely second hand, that which you do not conjure from your own fears, and I feel like you are siting books you have not taken the time to read. That means one of two things, you're being intellectually dishonest, or you are naive enough to believe everything the right feeds you. If that weren't the case, you'd have different views on abortion and you wouldn't cloak your views in nonsense like a link-less poll.

The liberal stuff on Obama? What are you smoking? I'm a liberal and trust me, Barack Obama is a centrist, which is just fine with me because I've been living with right wing lugnuts most all of my adult life. It would be a blessing to have someone of Baracks intellect and fairness guiding this nation. Brack loves his country enough to know that sometimes lovers quarrel, but they never part. If that's liberal, then so be it. This is a man that has said, there are no red or blue states, there is the United States, and those are words our nation longs to hear.

We could do this all day, but I know my facts and can back them up and eventually I'd get tired of schooling you. And there's many on DU far better versed than me. Vote as you wish. Actually do some homework and then decide. It's not up to me.

And as far as you staying or going, again, not up to me. I'm just another liberal poster on what I think is the best damn site, with the best group of people in the world.

[Left Is Write]

"You don't like big government unless it has to do with another persons body or bedroom."

Exactly.

[Maven]

196. ...

1) Iraq was a mistake then, and it's a mistake now. There is no "victory" there, it will never end until we say it does. More people will die and more money will be wasted until we get out.

2) Personal rights SHOULD be mandated by the Constitution regardless of what the mob in one state or another wants to vote in or out. One of these is the right to privacy. No American should be denied fundamental rights because they have the misfortune of living in a state where 51% is against them.

3) The "death tax" is a RW frame, and it's bullshit.

4) Fine, whatever

5) Again, fine, but reasonable gun control laws protect those of us who live in big cities (you know, "fake" America?)

You're still welcome if and only if you support Obama for president. All of your points for McCain and against Obama are pretty much total RW bullshit that are easily refutable either by listening to either candidate for 5-10 minutes or informing oneself via the web (and I don't mean hannity's website).

As I said in a previous post, while DUers disagree on certain points, they are expected to uphold certain Democratic principles (like social and economic justice in state AND federal policy). If you find yourself unable to mesh on these points then this isn't the site for you. It's a little late, 8 years later, to hope for reconciliation when the party you've supported has destroyed millions of lives and nearly sunk the entire country. It's YOUR job to get with it as an American, and to vote for the right choice, not ours to educate you.

[Left Is Write]

216. Harvey...

"2) Personal rights SHOULD be mandated by the Constitution regardless of what the mob in one state or another wants to vote in or out. One of these is the right to privacy. No American should be denied fundamental rights because they have the misfortune of living in a state where 51% is against them."

You said that much better than I did. Thanks.

[ourbluenation]

199. Of course you're still welcome but I'll never understand why being intellectually elite

is a problem. I always want the smartest person in the room running the show. Don't you?

[Zuiderelle]

201. Most of what you list sounds VERY conservative. How do you feel about gay marriage?

Since you're giving details now.

[krkaufman]

202. Don't expect compromise towards those positions, since they've been disproven or all false

1) Iraq: Were such a need to arise, judged by the US President, that we needed the assistance of Canadian military troops on US soil (for whatever reason), how long would you trust this President and his administration while the foreign military forces maintained a presence in our country? If after 5+ years and they still hadn't left, and Canada's government was publicly dictating US policy, would you be united under the leadership of this President, or would you be working against him and for the expulsion of the foreign forces?

The US military presence must be removed from Iraq for any Iraqi government to have credibility with the people of Iraq.

2) Abortion: Mirroring your question, if 66% of Mississipians believe that slavery should be legal, the federal government should stay out of it? The "federal mandate" of which you speak is also referred to by some as Constitutional rights, which the federal government is mandated to uphold.

3) "Death tax": If you wish to present yourself as someone open to unity and compromise, then you need to start shelving some of the divisive, misleading, and disingenuous rhetoric purchased from Frank Luntz et al. If it were a "death tax", then everyone would pay it. If the movement were "pro-life" then they would, by necessity, be anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-stem cell research, anti-poverty, etc.

The "estate tax" is a healthy tax, wisely instituted long ago in part to preclude an aristocracy of inheritance from effectively becoming American royalty.

4) Energy/market decide: If you haven't noticed, the free market has failed miserably to position the country for the needs of the future. This is the basic problem with the free market, it is reactive, not proactive. A problem as large as our energy independence is not going to elicit necessary funding without government mandates that lessen the risk to investors. "Free market" is another term that should discarded, along with "death tax", "pro-life", etc, as there is no such thing as a free market.

Brazil is almost entirely energy independent now, and not because the free market led the way to fueling their automobiles on ethanol. It was government regulation, government mandates, taxation, and prolonged commitment. Ironically, Brazil and the US were headed in the same direction at one time, until Ron Reagan nixed the energy independence initiatives of President Carter. (Ask yourself where we'd be as a country, today, if we'd continued down Carter's path towards energy independence.)

---

Re: McCain/Obama points... I don't see the pro-McCain points as based on reality or on specific policies; they're just general fear-inducing talking points we've heard for years -- and note that none are really detailed specifics of why to vote FOR John McCain, as opposed to reasons to not vote for Obama. Your Obama points were somewhat more policy-based, but then we get a list of what you don't like about Obama without a similar list for McCain. Again, if you're looking for unity, this is an aggressive approach, rather than the conciliatory approach the Right *should* be offering, given the Right's ultimate and almost sole responsibility for our current situation.

Oh, as for Supreme Court justices, add "strict constructionist" and "judicial activist" to the list of talking points to retire. It's been documented that Scalia, Thomas et al, have been the MOST activist of Supreme Court justices, based on their records of overriding legislation -- putting aside the travesty that was Scalia's halting the vote-counting on December 9th, 2000 and the court decision on the following Tuesday.

[0955Forrest]

206. lol...

I think it's funny to see the difference betweeen IQ of DU and Freeperland (which literally reads like teenage rednecks)

You guys are well spoken (written?)

Someone asked about "gay Marriage" and IMHO it is ok, just as "ok" as straight marriage. My philosophy... I don't care. IMHO, social conservatives (aka fundies) are mean.

[Zuiderelle]

210. Why do you think that Roe v. Wade was "bad law?"

[Joe Chi Minh]

203. "Finish Iraq correctly (contrary to the far right I believe that Obama will not

stage a hasty withdrawal from Iraq and will bring the soldiers home in VICTORY)"

That alone should be an eye-opener for those DUers who were taken in by your "sweet reasonableness". Not only does that proclaim that you are a moral derelict, but your earlier assumption shows you to be culpably ignorant.

Saddam Hussein, who had been groomed and virtually anointed by the CIA as the President of Iraq, tried every way possible means at his disposal to dissuade the US from attacking Iraq.

But when you talk about bringing the soldiers home in VICTORY (ironically, your own capitals), you plumb the absolute depths. The country has been all but totally destroyed, and six months ago, the figure for the orphans created by the US invasion was quoted at 500,000. I would say you are in real danger of rotting in Hell.

It is your duty as a sentient human-being, AND with a better education than most, to educate yourself about the realities behind the major issues in current affairs in which your country is involved, as peddled by your mendacious corporate media.

[Sparkly]

204. "The hope for budget restraint?"

You still think DEMOCRATS are the ones who are fiscally irresponsible?!???

I just remembered why I like DU better than discussions with so-called "conservatives."

[Left Is Write]

213. You know what? No. If you're going to repeat RW talking points about Obama, then no.

Democratic Underground is for the support of Democratic candidates and Democratic/progressive causes.

As for this:

2) Abortion. My view ranges from "it's a personal choice" to "it's not a Federal issue" I believe that Roe v. Wade was bad law. Not saying that abortion shouldn't be legal in jurisdictions where the community wants it... but shouldn't have been a Federal issue. Question for you all... if 75% of Oklahomans believe that abortion should be illegal, should there be a Federal mandate to keep it legal? Or should it be a state's rights sorta call? That's also why I'd be AGAINST a Federal ban on same-sex marriage.

I don't give a flying fig what 75% of Oklahomans think about abortion. Reproductive rights are about more than just the right to seek a legal abortion. It's about all reproductive rights and, most importantly, the right to autonomy over one's own body and the right to privacy in those issues.

Me? I'm certainly against a federal ban on same-sex marriage. I'm also against any state ban on same-sex marriage. I'm against ANY ban on same-sex marriage. I'm against using the US Constitution or any state constitution to abridge the basic rights of the citizens.

[Obamarama]

223. Now you're telling us you're one of those "undecideds?" Get out. Just GET OUT.

Attention whores are not very welcome at DU.

[0955Forrest]

224. OK

I just hope that you're not much of a reflection of Obama.

[Joe Chi Minh]

243. Brief and to the point. One of the best posts on DU for a while.Like

our friend's post, spoken from the heart! But honest, instead of weasely.

[ecstatic]

235. Frankly, no... but you might be able to survive in the Gun forum

:shrug: You seem like a somewhat reasonable guy, perhaps you could rely less on Hannity and Co. to form your opinions of Obama?

And you're concerned about how Obama will afford his plans--how the hell is McCain gonna afford his plans for more war and more tax cuts for the top 2%?

[Every Man A King]

237. No n/t

[Born_A_Truman]

241. The Fairness Doctrine worked great with very few exceptions

It needs to be brought back, IMO, and brought up to date. The media is now in the hands of a handful of corporations and the public has a right to hear opposing opinions on issues.

[krkaufman]

188. Where've ya been for the last 8 years?

The relative success of the Obama campaign hasn't changed the reality of Bush Admin policies from the day he entered office. I would think any "Goldwater" Conservative would have been done with a Bush Administration before it began, when it was fraudulently anointed by the US Supreme Court on December 12, 2000.

And I think we can all hope for a lack of violence, but let's not forget who did the rioting during the 2000 election recount, that stopped vote-counting, nor let us forget from whence came the perpetrators of the Oklahoma City bombing and the other domestic terrorists perpetrating their crimes under a "pro-life" banner.

Here's hoping for what degree of unity can be achieved, but I'll be looking for the compromising to be coming from the Right side of the spectrum after what we've seen the last 8 years.

[JJ]

191. Not to be an ass...

but the time for this kind of outreach was 12/13/2000.

What were you saying on that day? Was it "GET OVER IT"? Honestly.

[Zuiderelle]

192. I was not behind Bush one iota. I have disagreed with you for several years, not just once every 4.

Did you vote for Obama? If not, why would you say that you would be behind him from day one? Why do you say that you would not meet us "in an agreement on principles and our national character and philosophy" and yet support our new President? How is that even possible that you can so completely disagree with our principles and character and philosophy and yet get "behind" our President?

I'm seriously confused by your post.

[Overseas]

197. Too late to see no mischief. GOP, aka Republicans, have already

started their mischief. It happened months ago when the Bush DOJ tried to get its attorneys to take on trumped up cases of vote registration fraud against ACORN. When some attorneys refused to take on the cases because there was too little evidence, they were fired. That mischief began really early.

GOP voter suppression tactics are ongoing as well. Just glad we're catching more of the voter roll purging efforts this time. Guess you missed those ten stories so far.

Other GOP election manipulation is going on, like the lovely fliers Republican operatives sent to Virginia Democrats on fake state stationery, to tell them to vote on November 5th instead. Guess you missed that story.

I just hope Republican leaders tell the dirty tricks squads to stop enough of that stuff so that we can still have our win, and get enough seats in the House and Senate. The country needs Democrats to balance the budgets and move us forward to alternative energy rapidly and get us some national health insurance like France has.

Hope you will reform your party away from their current lack of ethics and back toward strong principles. But that will take a long time, IMHO. The GOP was overtaken by guys who talked bipartisan and acted mostly in very partisan ways. The few exceptions were heralded as evidence against the many other instances of highly partisan actions.

To understand the depth of the suspicion I and others hold toward your party, please check out the free download at www.stealingamericathemovie.org

Stealing America: Vote by Vote

Your party has shown a willingness to subvert our voting rights and your Bush administration has been allowed to trample on the constitution and international law without much push back from loyal party members. You weren't outraged enough by their admissions of taking the country to war on false pretenses to toss them out of office. You voted for the criminals in large numbers TWICE.

You guys also tend to push tax cuts for the rich saying they will trickle down while in measurable fact the incomes of most working people have GONE DOWN WHILE WE ARE WAITING for the mythical trickle down effect. We are tired of having wealth TRICKLE UP, well actually wealth being sucked right up to the top. By funding war profiteering, through the no-bid contracts your Vice President foisted upon us, and deregulation you guys push upon us which we then later have to bail out.

So it is nice of you to talk politely now. Wish you were there after Abu Ghraib when we tried to get rid of the criminal Bush administration to put a war hero in the White House. A hero whose Purple Heart medal was mocked by folks at your 2004 convention wearing band-aids.

I really look forward to better days when the GOP aka Republicans forgo the mischief they have employed for the past several elections.

[LiberalAndProud]

198. Ok, clean slate.

But please refrain from listening to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk for the next four years. Give our new president a chance without the vitriol. Okay?

[ronnykmarshall]

200. Thank you and welcome.

[Zuiderelle]

205. Everyone should read the OP's post here before responding:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7701590#7710020

How on earth could he have these views and "get behind" Obama when he is elected? I find that nearly impossible to believe that someone with such conservative views could ever accept Obama as president.

Let me boil down his points:

- He wants us to "finish" the war in Iraq, not pull out
- He thinks that Roe v Wade was bad law.
- He supports exploration in ANWR and offshore drilling
- He thinks that McCain would finish Iraq debacle "correctly"
- He thinks he would approve of SC justices McCain would appoint
- He wants to avoid 1 party rule
- He thinks Obama is SNOBBISH and INTELLECTUALLY ELITIST
- He thinks Obama spent his formative years associating with socialists/lefty activists
- He thinks Obama is lying in his campaign promises

[0955Forrest]

211. ok

1) Finish means slowly withdrawing leaving behind peaceful areas and a gov't in control. I think they can be out in 1 year.

2) By definition it WAS bad law. NOT saying abortion should be illegal. But it's not the FED gov't business.

3) ANWR is a postage stamp on a football field...

4) I think Obama and McCain will BOTH finish Iraq correctly.

5) Scalia and Ginsberg are mirror opposites of each other. Neither was the best choice.

6) yes.

7) It's how he and his campaign has portrayed him.

8) He did. (fact)

9) I hope he's telling the truth.

[Sparkly]

214. Ridiculous.

1.) McCain has no end in sight -- no "victory."

2.) The fundamental right to privacy IS the federal government's business.

3.) ANWR solves nothing.

4.) See #1.

5.) The judiciary, on all levels, is now overrun through and through with rightwing radicals and incompetents.

6.) One-party rule is needed to undo the damage of the past eight years, imho.

7.) It's how MCCAIN'S campaign portrayed him!!!

8.) Ridiculous.

9.) His record of telling the truth in this campaign is far, far better than McCain's.

[Left Is Write]

220. "2.) The fundamental right to privacy IS the federal government's business."

Yes. Thank you. I do not know why so many people have trouble understanding this.

[Zuiderelle]

215. ok.

- He wants us to "finish" the war in Iraq, not pull out
1) Finish means slowly withdrawing leaving behind peaceful areas and a gov't in control. I think they can be out in 1 year.
-- OK, then we agree on that, but McCain has never said that he would leave in a year. In fact, he has made it seem he expects us to stay there a long long time.

- He thinks that Roe v Wade was bad law.
2) By definition it WAS bad law. NOT saying abortion should be illegal. But it's not the FED gov't business.
-- Why do you think it would be better handled by states? Why should a woman in one state have no rights over her own body, and a woman in another state have full rights?

- He supports exploration in ANWR and offshore drilling
3) ANWR is a postage stamp on a football field...
-- Please expand on this point. I don't understand your answer.

- He thinks that McCain would finish Iraq debacle "correctly"
4) I think Obama and McCain will BOTH finish Iraq correctly.
-- How can you think that they will both finish it correctly, since McCain hasn't actually said that he will finish it at all?

- He thinks he would approve of SC justices McCain would appoint
5) Scalia and Ginsberg are mirror opposites of each other. Neither was the best choice.
-- What do you have against Ginsberg?

- He wants to avoid 1 party rule
6) yes.
-- Why?

- He thinks Obama is SNOBBISH and INTELLECTUALLY ELITIST
7) It's how he and his campaign has portrayed him.
-- How has he portrayed himself this way? Just saying it's so, doesn't make it so.

- He thinks Obama spent his formative years associating with socialists/lefty activists
8) He did. (fact)
-- Do you buy into the whole Ayers thing too?

- He thinks Obama is lying in his campaign promises
9) I hope he's telling the truth.
--But you said this:
"If you look at his record I believe he is farther left than his campaign promises. I'd worry about 2nd Amen, SC justices, taxing the middle class..."

Why do you think he's farther left than his campaign promises? Why do you worry about Supreme Court justices he might appoint? What kind of justice do you think he would appoint that makes you worry?

[0955Forrest]

222. responses

2) re: Abortion. When I was younger I said " I don't care, I'm not a woman, not my business" With age I've come to realize that some people MAY believe that abortion is a criminal act. IMHO, few would believe that 20 minutes after conception the mass of cells could be called a "viable life" and few people would argue that terminating a viable 32 week fetus is "a mass of cells". There's "grey area" there... maybe Obama was right when he said "Above my pay grade"... cuz I'm not sure either.

Roe v Wade is a constitutional RIGHT to terminate life.

Local courts in different states decide the level of intoxication that defines "DWI", state courts decide whether a murderer may be executed... what's wrong with leaving "termination of pregnancy" with the states? Honestly if a woman in Oklahoma City wants an abortion, PP will put her on a plane to Illinois.

But... I'm not a single issue voter. Keep abortion legal in 50 states? Ok with me.

3)IMHO, production on ANWR could be clean and unobtrusive. If I'm going to pay $4.50 per gallon of gas... I want that $130/Barrel to go to an American company, pumping from an American well, with American workers collecting and transporting that fuel.
Domestic OIL is the bridge to alternative fuels. Being a 100% importer and consumer of foreign OIL is stupid for the US. It leaves the country dependent and weak. I want "Manhattan Project" investment in AE but we will need domestic OIL for the next 50 years in some quantity or another.

4)I read McCain different. He's not telegraphing a withdrawal date but as regions get peaceful why stay? US should be there just as a back-up located on remote bases as a rapid response force before they withdraw completely.

5) Don't want to "argue"... so let's leave it as disagreement on SCJ's.

6) One party rule will lead to the gov't pandering to it's far left/right.

7) Divided gov't has been shown to work well. The Clinton years were pretty darn good for everyone I know.

8) It's more than that. Obama decided early on that to pursue his political career he needed support from the far left. He DID run with a far left crowd... that's OK but I'm not going to argue about it... no worse than GWB pandering to Bob Jones, etc... just similar.

9) Time will tell... if he follows his campaign promises 100% I will be quite impressed with a Pres. Obama.

[Zuiderelle]

232. I disagree with your wording of what Roe v Wade is.

2) "Roe v Wade is a constitutional RIGHT to terminate life." No. It is a constitutional right for a woman to be able to make decisions about her own body, her own pregnancy, without interference of the government (state or federal).

If a poor woman in Oklahoma City wants an abortion and it's illegal there, it might not be so easy for her to travel all the way to another state and pay for the care and lodging required to have an out-of-state abortion. Then the right to abortion becomes an elitist right, only available to those who can afford it.

3, 4, 5, 6) We aren't going to agree on these.

7) Divided government under Clinton tied his hands and made him compromise in ways that hurt many of us, including gays in the military. Divided government under Clinton completely prohibited any movement towards universal health care. Divided government under Clinton led to the supreme waste of time and resources that was his impeachment.

8) Obama's relationships in his political early years were "similar" to GWB's pandering to Bob Jones, etc.? You seriously believe that?

9) Did you, or will you, vote for Obama? You do realize that this site, DemocraticUnderground, is dedicated to seeing that the democratic party candidate is elected, don't you?

[Every Man A King]

238. Whats up with your username?

Nathan Bedford Forrest ?

[Mz Pip]

209. Should Obama win

and it looks pretty likely that he will, I hope more people on the other side of the aisle will be as gracious and thoughtful as you.

There has been entirely too much divisiveness over the past few years. The challenges we face require a commitment from all Americans to work together.

To a fresh start - for everyone. :toast:

Mz Pip

[Duppers]

218. ....

If your side were winning, you'd still be kicking us to the curb and you know it.

[dave123williams]

221. Jon, that was very, very cool what you just did.

I'm thirsty for unity in this country. I think we all are.

Except, of course, the people who would profit by dividing us.

[Desertrose]

225. Nice knowing there are those who want to find the middle ground...

Great post btw. Thanks ...and welcome to this wild & woolly place, Jon.
Far as I'm concerned, you are most welcome!!

:hi: DR

[Maven]

234. There is no "middle ground" in the voting booth.

You're either voting for Obama, or you aren't.

[Desertrose]

242. True, but there is a lot to do afterwards.

And for that it will take everyone to make things work.


...and I already voted Obama.

[Jawja]

227. Absolutely,

Jon. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[newspeak]

233. so, I'd like to know if you voted for Bush twice

An army ethicist who committed suicide in Iraq wrote before he died that there is no honor-that we had invaded Iraq to steal their oil,basically giving the oil corporations and the war profiteers carte blanche over Iraq. And, to me that is the key word "HONOR". I see no honor in the past seven + years, just blind obedience and loyalty. For those Republicans who have honor, like the US attorneys and congresscritters who were thrown under the bus by your party, they put honor, justice and conscience over blind loyalty. The Iraq war is no football game, to be won at the expense of our citizens or Iraqi citizens--as it has been based upon a grievous lie. I'll never forget Bush looking under a desk for WMD's as a joke, nor will I forget him stating he hit the trifecta after 9/11. 9/ll which still has not been properly investigated nor an accounting as to why four planes could be highjacked-one, yes--four no--remember, we had airport security before 9/11. And yet, I hear those on your side stating that Republicans will protect us-yet, they didn't on that day. Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater-all war profiteers making a killing in the Iraq War, while giving our soldiers substandard food and tainted water for a buck. Blackwater murdering civilians thus making it harder for our soldiers. I'm sure you've heard of the Senate hearings of our tax dollars supporting slave labor--companies hiring laborers, telling them after they get on the plane they're going to Iraq and kidnapped by gunpoint. Not one of these corporations have been held accountable by law!!!!

Maybe you should read up on the Keating 5. Deregulation has hurt this country and it's people. I'm sure you've read about the savings and loan scandal? One of the biggest rip offs in the history of the world (until now)-Senior citizens, working people lost their money-now there were some Democrats involved, but to whom did Charles keating contribute to the most--John McCain. And, John McCain has been promoting deregulation to this day. Now, look where we are now. Who is hurt by these actions? We are--we pay, our children pay, for the greed of others. Abramoff, Charles Keating, Cunningham, all in prison-oh and don't forget Enron. But, keep believing the little lies--or as Bush stated "catapulting the propaganda." And, again, another election, and I hear the slimey lies getting uglier and uglier. Nothing much about policy, just lies. So what, if Obama was on a committee with Ayers to help the needy-the Annenberg Foundation that just so happens to have donated to the McCain camp. So what, if Khalid shared a meal with Obama, yet Khalid received approximately one half million dollars from McCain. So what, if Obama's father was from Africa, he has a valid BC from Hawaii, yet McCain was born in Panama. Obama, a community organizer, taught Constitutional law (oh my God, actually knows about the Constitution) and was head of the Harvard Review. You call him an elitist? Born of hardworking grandparents and a mother--worked to put himself in college and he's an elitist? Well, how about someone who's family, since their grandfather was in the military hierarchy, someone who cannot remember how many houses he has? What do you think they are, if not an elitist. I'm familiar with military hierarchy and I know how the distance is maintained between officers' families and the rest of the unwashed. (or at least when I experienced it).

Since you are obviously male-you don't have to worry about choices-but I'll never forget one of my professor's said back in the eighties--he said that if the fundies overturn roeVwade, they will go after all birth control. Well, it seems that they're not waiting for that--some ministers are trying right now. There are various belief systems in this country--and no one has the right to inject their beliefs on others!!! The decision is between the person involved, their family, their physician and maybe their clergy. You know, Hitler outlawed abortion, Ceusceu from Romania not only outlawed abortion, but required women to have at least five children. Now tell me, do you think that it was because they believed in the sanctity of life or for some other sinister reason? I find it amazing that most of the same people decrying abortion and wailing about the sanctity of life, have no problem murdering other people's children or are full supporters of capital punishment.

So, welcome to DU and I hope and pray for a peaceful transition after the election-and, may justice, compassion and honor be restored.

[Every Man A King]

236. Alerted

From DU rules:
We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

[The Traveler]

239. Un-alerting and welcome

Really, I think it silly to ban all conservatives from DU. Liberals enjoy a vigorous exchange of ideas, so long as it doesn't descend into the silly or the assassination of character.

But if you want to know me, know where I stand, bud.

1. I spent 12 years fighting commies. I did not do so in order that some pencil necked, limp dicked allegedly born again type can persecute gay people. I am (I have been told) incorrigibly straight, have no fashion sense, and cannot dance. (Fuck off to all my gay friends. You are all absurd. Barbecue at my place next weekend?) Gay rights are human rights and are NOT NEGOTIABLE.

2. I am a defense hawk. I have seen some real evil crap out there in the world, and I do not want to ever see it get the upper hand. Flip side. We cannot defeat that kind of evil by emulating its tactics. That just turns us into them, and that threatens things worse even than defeat. When we turn Iraqi prison guards loose to anally rape the young sons of Iraqi mothers in the presence of said mothers because we THINK they MIGHT be involved with someone we don't like ... well, fuck, dude. Why don't we just all don Soviet Army uniforms? Because our actions have, at that point, become indistinguishable from those of the Evil Empire so many of us here at DU fought so hard. Thanks for pissing all over the graves of my friends ...

3. Freedom is a two edged sword ... one edge being Liberty, and the other edge being Responsibility. I have a responsibility to my fellow citizen, and they to me. We spend far too much money on Extenze dick extension pills and far too little elevating our brothers and sisters. We have the Largest Prison Population in the world. That to me is symptomatic of the conservative inability to address the responsibility that we have to each other as a people. Bud, it seems to me conservatives want an America where women are not free to decide matters of conscience for themselves, a position largely on based an interpretation of Christianity that has no Biblical basis (the notion that ensoulment happens at conception) and which requires a dismantling of a fundamental American right (the right to privacy) to legally enforce. We have systematized the penalization of sexual preference. We have declared outlaw those who dare alter their consciousness chemically as they see fit (the so-called War on Drugs) while subsidizing a for profit branch of the health care industry that has put half the boys in America on ritalin. Widows of non-Christian faiths have had to file suit simply to mark the graves of their loved ones with the religious symbols expressing their beliefs. I am trying to figure out where the freedom in the Conservative vision of freedom is ... the freedom to shop at Wal Mart, perhaps?

Those are my opening salvos. There are more. So, like, if you want to thrash over this kind of stuff please do hang out. But if you are expecting some kind of free pass, I suggest you go else where.

Don't mean to be nasty ... but if you think conservatives are the only ones who have principles held dearly, you are incredibly naive.

Trav

[Downtown Hound]

240. I'm curious, why do you want to be here?

Okay, I can understand the whole reaching across the aisle thing, but it seems to me like you're looking for more than that. You have expressed your opinion that you don't like the fact that Obama associated with left wing radicals throughout his career. You are aware that many of us are left wing radicals aren't you? We are those very people you claim not to like.

It's true that there are liberals and Democrats of many stripes here, some more conservative than others, but I think it's safe to assume that this is a very left wing site overall. So why would you, an old school conservative, really want to come here? Are you really just looking to make nicey nice after all the divisions that have happened over the last eight years? Are you worried about what's going to happen when we take power? Are you worried that we might make trouble if you steal the election again? For the life of me, I can't really see any reason for you to be here, unless you really just wanted to stop by and say hello.

I want you to know that it's okay with me that you're here, but you should be aware that it specifically states in the DU rules that this is a site to promote the Democratic Party and its candidates. If you don't support Obama, then the mods may just show you the door. I know that may sound harsh and unfair, and for what it's worth, I believe you have been very polite and cordial. But this site is for people like us, not you. It was set up that way and we like it that way. You're a Blood in a neighborhood of Crips here, friend, red and blue. If you really want to reach out to some liberals, my advice would be to do it in person. They shouldn't be very hard to find. I'll let you in on a little secret: WE ARE EVERYWHERE! Build bridges that way, it's much better than doing it online. And you'll be a lot less likely to get the negativity that you have gotten here. Remember that a lot of us have suffered greatly during the last eight years, and not all of us are willing to forgive and forget so easily. If you really want to reach out to a liberal, then the first thing you're going to have to do is acknowledge that, learn about where our rage comes from, and understand it. Because guess what? Our rage is quite justified. You Republicans have FUCKED UP BAD. And you need to take responsibility for that if you ever want us to trust you again.

Anyways, I wish you well, whether or not you stay here or go somewhere else. I hope you're sincere in your desire to build bridges. But just know that it's going to take a lot more than an anonymous internet post on a liberal forum to do so.