We should all acknowledge after two stolen elections, it is logical to believe they will try again

[debbierlus]

First, I am not stating that it will succeed.

But, they are trying to do it. They have purged MILLIONS of voters. Their corporate cronies own the voting machines. There is logical reason to believe that PA is a target because the state votes on machines without a paper trail and we all know these machines can be hacked.

Florida has been stolen before.

Plus, Ohio.

All day long MSNBC has been using the Mason Dixen polls to create a scenario where McCain can win. I think it is only prudent to prepare oneself for the possibility of a third hacked election, simply because we will need to be psychologically ready to fight back & protest. We all know that if this was a completely honest election, it would be a landslide without a doutbt. However, we are banking on the fact they won't be able to cheat enough to win. And, it is most likely true.

However, this is the GOP & we know they are liars, thieves, cheaters, and worse. Would anything they do really surprise you at this point?

Don't paint people who are rationally worried as downers. After two stolen elections, it only makes sense to prepare for another fiasco.

[scheming daemons]

1. In both 2000 and 2004, the final polls matched the recorded vote count

No reason to think that the final polls (showing Obama up between 2 to 9) are not correct this time.

[iceman66]

10. Not exactly.

2004 final polls in several states were within the MOE, and the exit polls showed Kerry winning.

Specifically, fraud in Ohio has been pretty well established, and the election turned on that state. Bush's numbers were also padded in several other states as well, including some reliably red states, to give him a comfortable lead in the popular vote.

This election will be harder for them to steal, because Obama is polling much better than Kerry, but that doesn't mean they won't try.

[bertman]

17. Please document that, scheming daemons. There are so many different polls that I find

your statement a bit hard to believe. Also, I seem to remember that in some polls at least, Gore was ahead of Bush in '00 just before election day.

Debbierus, thanks for keeping it real. There are many knowledgeable people who feel that Obama needs a ten- or twelve-point lead in the popular vote if he's going to keep the "flippers" from giving it to McCain.

Already we see polls showing that McCain is narrowing the gap. The closer the race, the easier it is to steal.

What about exit polls? Oh right, I forgot that they are no longer reliable since '04. So, even if the exit polls show Obama winning 60% to 35% they are not reliable?

Just because Obama has 65,000 supporters at a rally in Columbus Ohio a day after McCain had 10,000 at a rally in the same city, that means nothing.

What counts (punus intendus) is the final count. The final vote tabulation. The final number that is spit out of thousands of voting machines that have nothing to verify that they accurately recorded the vote.

Regardless of the outcome on Tuesday, and let me go on the record saying that OBAMA IS GOING TO WIN, this voting machine plague needs to have a vaccine developed that ends it once and for all.

[EFerrari]

20. There is a pile of evidence of fraud. Conyers' report, GAO,

Palast's work, Brad's, Fitrakis, Wasserman, Crispin Miller, Freeman, others I'm not thinking of.

Houston, we have a problem.

It may not effect this election but that doesn't mean we can just overlook the state our elections are in.

[iceman66]

2. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

I think you're right about the MSM and the Mason Dixon polls. Same reason they've been talking up the "Bradley Effect" - anything to create a plausible McCain win scenario!

[Lumpsum]

3. Better duck and cover OP.

I sense a bunch of "YOU'RE A FREEPER TROLL" grenades being lobbed into your direction.

[debbierlus]

13. Nah, people here know me - I have had enough front page featured posts & journals

For them to know that this is just my pet issue. And, people here also know the GOP are cheaters.

[muntrv]

4. That's why we need a gargantuan turnout. It will make the fraud obvious,

if not offset the fraud.

[cottonseed]

5. Do Not Concede

Gore Vidal

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/37295

[debbierlus]

9. I saw that - it was wonderfully smart -

[Bicoastal]

6. It IS illogical to think they could succeed...

...because it would be near IMPOSSIBLE to steal 5-6 big, not-so-close states at once.

Florida was stolen because not only was the election extremely close, but so was the state. Ditto Ohio, although this time neither the country or the state was quite as narrow. But none of this was unforeseen by polling the Sunday before the election.

Based on the closeness therein, and if they REALLY wanted to, the GOP could steal Missouri, Indiana, and/or MAYBE North Carolina--but these aren't the states they need to win.

[debbierlus]

11. I believe if it did happen, there would be one hell of a fight....

And, I am ready.

Obama has been saying that those who have power do not relinquish it easily. He is right. I think he will prevail Tuesday, however, I do not trust the GOP in the least. And, if they can, they will.

[EFerrari]

21. You can make an election close enough to steal. That really doesn't mean

as much as you and *I* would like it to mean.

I'm hoping the overwhelming public support for Obama will kill the efforts that Rove and other have been putting into place for years now. In other words, it may not be so much about the numbers but about the pressure from the public.

Crossing everything!

[gravity]

7. The Democrats aren't stupid

They defeated the efforts to purge voters this election cycle, and aren't going to allow any voting machines that could flip votes. The Democrats have a team of lawyers and are prepared to deal with all the shit that could occur.

It is alright to be concerned, but a lot of this fear is becoming irrational. The Democrats and the Obama campaign will handle it.

[AndyTiedye]

8. That's What They Told Us Last Time

[uppityperson]

19. They learned a whole lot in the last 2 election cycles. Obama isn't Kerry.

The Obama campaign isn't the Kerry campaign.

[EFerrari]

22. The Obama campaign has gotten much more support than the Kerry campaign did

when everyone in the leadership was backing Hillary the entire time.

[uppityperson]

26. I remember phone calling this time 4 yrs ago and saying "we have a chance". I am so much

more optimistic this time, for the whole thing. But 8 yrs of crap leaves me much more cynical.

[politicasista]

45. Exactly

And it's Obama that is learning for Kerry's mistakes and Kerry is Obama's best surrogate. He didn't have party support like Obama has on this issue.

[The Stranger]

46. That's What They Told Us Last Time

[uppityperson]

12. Of course they will try. That is why there is a whole bunch of people working and prepared this time

I can think of little that would surprise me, but I am sure they could come up with something. That said, the Democratic party learned a lot from the last 2 elections and there are a lot more people out there watching and ready.

Of course they will try. I am very glad that there is such a group of people that we have this time to make sure it doesn't happen.

[debbierlus]

14. The fear has pushed me to keep making calls

So, it is a good fear.

[uppityperson]

18. Yup. Keep up the good work. 2 more days. After the last 8 yrs, being concerned seems normal.

Doesn't mean "give up" but "work more". 2 more days.

[Mike 03]

15. If it's any comfort, the Obama campaign said in a conference call last week that they have 3,000

lawyers on the ground ready to intercede at a moment's notice. And he also said they have so many more volunteering their time that they can't even respond to all the inquiries.

I think there is also a hotline: 1-866-Voteforchange? (Damn, I can't remember it. I'll look it up and edit this post)

[DainBramaged]

16. How will they steal Ohio and Pennsylvania oh concerned one?

:argh:

[EFerrari]

24. You have been following the concerted effort to suppress the vote

in both states, right? The law suits back and forth and more recently, the case that is demanding that the guy that ran Ohio votes through a Bush mail server testify?

I'm not going to run around calling for panic. But, we still need to pay attention to the real vulnerabilities that are really there. In other words, be optimistic but also, be ready to fight these bastards.

If vigilance turns out not to be needed, great. But we can't be caught flatfooted again.

[DainBramaged]

27. OUR people got this covered, no need for angst

[EFerrari]

28. Not angst, readiness.

:hi:

[DainBramaged]

32. we got this

:hug:

[booley]

43. For one, Man in the middle

MARK CRISPIN MILLER: Stephen Spoonamore is a conservative Republican, a former McCain supporter and, most importantly, a renowned and highly successful expert at the detection of computer fraud. That’s his profession. He works for major banks. He works for foreign governments. He works for the Secret Service. Those are his clients.
He knows personally the principal players in Bush-Cheney’s conspiracy to subvert our elections through electronic means since 2000, and he has named these principal players. Specifically, he has named a man named Mike Connell. Mike Connell, according to Spoonamore, is Karl Rove’s computer guru. This is the guy who has helped Bush-Cheney fix election results through computers since Florida 2000, in Ohio in 2004, also in the stolen re-election of Governor Don Siegelman in Alabama in 2002, also in the stolen re-election of Senator Max Cleland in Georgia in 2002.
AMY GOODMAN: How?
MARK CRISPIN MILLER: Well, basically, they use a kind of architecture that’s called Man in the Middle, and it involves shunting election returns data through a separate computer somewhere else. This is something that computer criminals do all the time with banks. Spoonamore explains that the Man in the Middle setup is extremely effective and basically undetectable as a way to change election results.
Now, the scariest thing is that Connell told Spoonamore that the reason why he has helped Bush-Cheney steal these elections for the last eight years has been to save the babies. See? We have to understand that there’s a very powerful component of religious fanaticism at work in the election fraud conspiracy. We saw a little bit of that in Greenswald’s film, where Paul Weyrich was talking about how we don’t want people voting.
..........

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/22/votes

Voter fraud has never really worked to swing elections beyond a country. You need too many people. But voter suppression only needs a few people in the right spots.

[happychatter]

23. Caging efforts have been blocked in a couple of major battleground states

suits are already active and the campaign is on every reported crime, like a duck on a june bug

personally, I'm happy and stoked

[Divine Discontent]

25. bless you for your post

there are those who will attack us for saying this - but it's true - and needs discussed! Why would ANYONE not think they're doing this again.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bonn1997]

31. Brainwashed Republican? ACORN did nothing illegal or wrong

[bluethruandthru]

33. Hey dumbass...

Acorn or any other organization that registers voters can register "mickey mouse"...but Mickey won't be allowed to vote.

[racaulk]

34. zOMG!!!11 ARE YOU SERIES!!!11!!1 THAT IS HUGH!!111!!11!!

Enjoy your brief stay, moran.

[Bonn1997]

30. This is the #1 issue right now because it is what will decide the outcome

[ecstatic]

35. Mentally ready? Yes. Psychologically ready? No

I would be completely devastated and heartbroken.

[specimenfred1984]

36. Doesn't matter, I'll offer all election-tampering felons redemption!

My great big wonderful heart has room for forgiving criminals of the worst nature, regardless of U.S. or international laws. You see, I'm a superior in every way!

[Vinca]

37. This is my big worry. Theft via computer programming is easy.

What's to stop them? They've stolen 2 elections and Dems in Congress pretty much looked the other way - especially in 2004.

[Atman]

38. No, it isn't

Almost nothing is the same as it was. Nothing. BushCo got what it wanted. It's done. It's made a bundle, got contracts in place, they'll be set forever. Eight years was all they needed, and all they ever expected.

.

[Vektor]

39. I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic, but I see your point, of course.

As I posted in another forum, there are a few things on our side this time around vs. 2000 and 2004:

The "loss" of Ohio's Republican SOS who aided and abetted the Bush administration and cronies in all the dirty tricks that were perpetuated in 2004.

A Democratic SOS in Ohio who truly does fight for every vote to be counted and refuses to let GOP bullying keep the citizens of Ohio from casting their votes.

In Florida: The removal of those god-awful paperless e-voting machines which cannot be trusted as far as they can be picked up and thrown.

The long overdue admission by the mainstream media that something is indeed rotten in the United States of America regarding how our votes are being cast and counted.

So, that's *something*. Will it eliminate all GOP dirty trickery? Hell, no. Will they continue to try to steal it via vote tampering, e-machine chicanery, and disenfranchisement? Oh, yes. Even 10 points down, those corrupt fuckers will still try to pull a "win" out of their asses.

I'm just hoping that this time we're ready for it, and they don't succeed.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlyingSquirrel]

44. debbierlus is not a "concern" troll

Please do not label or otherwise accuse fellow DU'ers of being trolls, it is against the rules.

[Jakes Progress]

41. Those that love to toss out "concerned" posts

that lambast those of us who believe that republicans are capable of anything can high five themselves and scoff all they want. Nothing would make me happier than a smooth election and joyful transition. However, we must remember who we are dealing with. These people have no limits to what they will do.

Try this scenario. Tuesday night, the count shows mccain with a win. The count shows a new republican majority in congress. All the questionable votes come from machines with no paper trail. MSM blames the Bradley effect that they have been touting for a week now. There are demonstrations, even riots. The outcome is taken to the courts all over the country. The reliably republican appellate courts mostly back mccain. Finally the decision would rest with the Supreme Court - a court that is now demonstrably more neo-con than the trained seals that put bush in office the first time. Just how is this "not" possible? Wake up and smell the mendacity.

I still think Obama will get the win. Along with a strong majority vote, we have solace in the fact that the neo-cons don't really care about mccain. The GOP probably realizes that a mccain/palin administration would mean the end of a creditable republican party. The neo-cons will be content to let Obama have the mess that george left, blame him for it, and generally grind government to a halt for the next four years. The only hope is to vote straight ticket and put as many Democrats in office as possible. And then hold our Democrats noses to the progressive line.

[judasdisney]

42. Surprise. They can also use fraud to elect suitable DEMOCRATS for economic scapegoats.

$1.14 QUADRILLION-dollar timebomb set to explode on Obama's head:

http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=1071